Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml
I strongly recommend you disable this feature of windows on any systems you set up for the less computer literate because I can tell you form experience with novice users that its a very bad feature. David Dorward wrote: On 28 Mar 2008, at 05:48, Jixor - Stephen I wrote: Yes but you choose to do so rather than being forced to do so. Usability tests still show that opening a new window confuses people. They can't work out whey they can't go back and don't seem to be aware of the task bar. I'm not sure how users react to tabbed browsers but in my own limited experience its very much the same, they seem totally unaware of the tab bar. The problem is compounded by systems which show only one item in the taskbar for all the windows for a given application. This saves space on the taskbar, but makes it less obvious when a new window is opened. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] a target= ” blank” not part of xhtml
Hi , Just wanted to join the chorus and say that poping windows is behaviour and should not be a part of the HTML spec. It really is akin to manipulating browser chrome and other designer land grabs (i.e. forgetting its the users broswer, not yours). Somethings i have found is that the original issue can usually be addressed by using styling to indicate external or document links (and leaving it up to the user to handle that in their prefered way (personaly i like to middle click for a pop under tab)) or for legitimate needs (usually web apps) a JS (behaviour) solution is appropriate. Some of the best include lighbox style popups for 'wizard prompts' or help. Kind Regards, Kane Tapping Web Standards Developer Web and Content Management Services Griffith University. 4111. Australia. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone: +61 (0)7 3735 7630 Andrew Maben [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 28/03/2008 02:00 AM Please respond to wsg@webstandardsgroup.org To wsg@webstandardsgroup.org cc Subject Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml On Mar 27, 2008, at 11:44 AM, Michael Horowitz wrote: I can't imagine its better practice to replace it with javascript. No, better practice is to avoid foisting new windows on users altogether. (IMHO - but I don't think I'm alone...) Andrew *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] a target= blank not part of xhtml
Another solution is http://wili.diegolamonica.info that allow you to open discretional popup windows. That page is in Italian only but in few days it will be translated in more other languages. It doesn't require that you are skilled in javascript, but requires to follow only the instruction that are on the above link and it doesn't ask to add extra markup and if you need you are able to manage popup window with it's settings (toolbar, scrollbars, width, height, etc. etc.). There are some examples on the page in the examples area that will help you to understand how it works. Cheers. Diego On 28/03/2008, Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael Horowitz Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 8:45 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] a target= blank not part of xhtml I just read how a target=_blank is not part of xhtml Why not. I can't imagine its better practice to replace it with javascript. http://weblogtoolscollection.com/archives/2004/01/02/targetblank-xhtml-10- strict-conversion/ If you really need to open a new window, this JS solution may help as it does not require extra markup: http://tjkdesign.com/articles/popup_window_with_no_extra_markup.asp -- Regards, Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- -- Diego La Monica (IWA/HWG) Web: programmazione, standards, accessibilità e 2.0 W3C Protocols and Format Working Group member for IWA/HWG Web Skill Profiles WG Member (http://skillprofiles.eu ) email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Skype: diego.la.monica mobile +393337235382 - Web: http://diegolamonica.info - http://jastegg.it [ Le uova si sono schiuse! ] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] a target= ” blank” not part of xhtml
Nancy Gill wrote: Actually, this link from the W3C suggests the use of both target and title .. target to open the window and title to tell the user that a new window will open. Example 2: A link that opens in a new window In HTML 4.01 the |target=_blank| attribute can be used on an anchor element to indicate that the URI specified by the href attribute will be opened in a new window. This example shows using the |title| attribute of the anchor element to provide information that the link will be opened in a new window. a href=http://example.com/subscribe.html; target=_blank title=link opens in new window Subscribe to email notifications about breaking news /a from this article: http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/H33.html Nancy That WCAG2 technique does not suggest the use of target. It merely says that if people *do* use target that way, *then* that link can be complemented with a title, i.e. that page is about the title attribute, not the use of target per se, and it neither approves or disapproves of its use. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml
On 28 Mar 2008, at 05:48, Jixor - Stephen I wrote: Yes but you choose to do so rather than being forced to do so. Usability tests still show that opening a new window confuses people. They can't work out whey they can't go back and don't seem to be aware of the task bar. I'm not sure how users react to tabbed browsers but in my own limited experience its very much the same, they seem totally unaware of the tab bar. The problem is compounded by systems which show only one item in the taskbar for all the windows for a given application. This saves space on the taskbar, but makes it less obvious when a new window is opened. -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ http://blog.dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml
Joe Ortenzi wrote: ... The help application opens a new window because it is designed to help you interact with the application you requested help with. It would be pretty dumb to delete the thing that you requested help with to be replaced with the help modal.!! Exactly my point. And exactly the situation with a complex web app. And of course there are other interactions where a separate window is appropriate, as with desktop apps. But web pages rarely And once more, I'm *not* talking about web pages, but about web applications. Perhaps if you've never seen or used one, it's hard to conceptualize, but they exist. -- Hassan Schroeder - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Webtuitive Design === (+1) 408-621-3445 === http://webtuitive.com dream. code. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml
On Mar 28, 2008, at 10:09 AM, Hassan Schroeder wrote: Perhaps if you've never seen or used one, it's hard to conceptualize, but they exist. Ouch... However if the subject is still opening new windows vis a vis the target attribute, it seems to me hard to conceptualize a web app that doesn't rely on both client- and server-side scripting. And returning to the original question: Why not. I can't imagine it's better practice to replace it with javascript. I'd think that in a web app it certainly is better practice to use javascript? What I'm getting from the discussion to this point: web *site* - new window bad; web *app* - new window sometimes necessary target=_blank - deprecated* and probably bad in any circumstance No doubt people will continue to hold different opinions as to how to deal with links to non-HTML documents. For myself I've decided the best course is to offer a direct link and leave it to the user to decide whether to open a new window/tab, and I think this is coming to be the majority and standard position. Those who hold a different view are free to do so, and act accordingly. Andrew *a little bee in my bonnet: deprecated: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/deprecated depreciated: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/depreciated *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml
I just read how a target=”_blank” is not part of xhtml Why not. I can't imagine its better practice to replace it with javascript. http://weblogtoolscollection.com/archives/2004/01/02/targetblank-xhtml-10-strict-conversion/ -- Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml
On Mar 27, 2008, at 11:44 AM, Michael Horowitz wrote: I can't imagine its better practice to replace it with javascript. No, better practice is to avoid foisting new windows on users altogether. (IMHO - but I don't think I'm alone...) Andrew *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml
Because it's against accessibility of a webpage. On 27/03/2008, Michael Horowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I just read how a target=_blank is not part of xhtml Why not. I can't imagine its better practice to replace it with javascript. http://weblogtoolscollection.com/archives/2004/01/02/targetblank-xhtml-10-strict-conversion/ -- Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- -- Diego La Monica (IWA/HWG) Web: programmazione, standards, accessibilità e 2.0 W3C Protocols and Format Working Group member for IWA/HWG Web Skill Profiles WG Member (http://skillprofiles.eu ) email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Skype: diego.la.monica mobile +393337235382 - Web: http://diegolamonica.info - http://jastegg.it [ Le uova si sono schiuse! ] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml
I totally agree .. in fact just having this conversation elsewhere. How can javascript be more accessible when those most concerned with accessibility will probably turn it off anyway? Makes no sense to have this removed .. I open new windows all the time .. for PDFs .. for links that go offsite, etc. Nancy - Original Message - From: Michael Horowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 8:44 AM Subject: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml I just read how a target=”_blank” is not part of xhtml Why not. I can't imagine its better practice to replace it with javascript. http://weblogtoolscollection.com/archives/2004/01/02/targetblank-xhtml-10-strict-conversion/ -- Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.1/1345 - Release Date: 3/26/2008 6:50 PM *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml
For acessibility and usabilitty issues i think we shouldn't use this. http://diveintoaccessibility.org/day_16_not_opening_new_windows.html http://www.useit.com/alertbox/990530.html http://www.w3.org/WAI/wcag-curric/sam77-0.htm http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-validator/2002Apr/0100.html []'s 2008/3/27, Michael Horowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I just read how a target=_blank is not part of xhtml Why not. I can't imagine its better practice to replace it with javascript. http://weblogtoolscollection.com/archives/2004/01/02/targetblank-xhtml-10-strict-conversion/ -- Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- []'s - Rochester Oliveira http://webbemfeita.com/ Viva a Web-Bem-Feita Web Designer Curitiba - PR - Brasil *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml
Michael Horowitz wrote: I just read how a target=”_blank” is not part of xhtml It's not part of XHTML 1.0 Strict or Transitional -- it's part of XHTML 1.0 Frameset. Choose the doctype you want to validate to. Or use the JavaScript approach. Ya pays yer money and ya makes yer choices :-) FWIW, -- Hassan Schroeder - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Webtuitive Design === (+1) 408-621-3445 === http://webtuitive.com dream. code. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml
Poping up windows makes assumtion of the user's behaviour. I for one find it very annoying when sites force open a new window. If I want to navigate a link I open the link up in a new tab. Forcing the link to open up in a new window doesn't make me stay on the site, it just makes me click extra to close the page that I navigated from. If a site constantly pops open windows I often just leave it. I argue that it's best to leave the user to control these things as people have very different habbits. -Thom - Original Message - From: Nancy Gill [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 5:03 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml I totally agree .. in fact just having this conversation elsewhere. How can javascript be more accessible when those most concerned with accessibility will probably turn it off anyway? Makes no sense to have this removed .. I open new windows all the time .. for PDFs .. for links that go offsite, etc. Nancy - Original Message - From: Michael Horowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 8:44 AM Subject: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml I just read how a target=”_blank” is not part of xhtml Why not. I can't imagine its better practice to replace it with javascript. http://weblogtoolscollection.com/archives/2004/01/02/targetblank-xhtml-10-strict-conversion/ -- Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.1/1345 - Release Date: 3/26/2008 6:50 PM *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] a target= blank not part of xhtml
Hi Michael, If I recall / understood correctly, the opening of a new browser window was seen by the W3C as functionality and therefore consigned to scripting. As for web standards prohibiting opening of new windows, this AA requirement is a little ambiguous for my taste: 10.1 Until user agents allow users to turn off spawned windows, do not cause pop-ups or other windows to appear and do not change the current window without informing the user. The WCAG Samuari Errata states: Do not cause pop-ups or other windows to appear and do not change the current window without informing the user. * Plain text is the strongly preferred method of informing the user. Use of any other method must be reserved for cases where plain text is unreasonably difficult or impossible. * The title attribute on a hyperlink a element can suffice in the unique case of legacy pages that are unreasonably difficult to update. It is not sufficient in newly-created pages or other circumstances. This shows more clearly shows that opening new windows is not deemed illegal. However, it gives little indication as to when it is acceptable to open a new window. Jackob Neilsen rates it in his top 10 design mistakes http://www.useit.com/alertbox/9605.html This one talks about opening non html docs in a new window: http://www.useit.com/alertbox/open_new_windows.html Ant -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael Horowitz Sent: 27 March 2008 16:36 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] a target= blank not part of xhtml Has the same problem. Target is not xhtml. Are people arguing web standards prohibit opening a new page in a new browser or tab? Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 Rob Kirton wrote: Michael I would recommend that you use target=_new and then use XHTML transitional DTD -- Regards - Rob Raising web standards : http://ele.vation.co.uk Linking in with others: http://linkedin.com/in/robkirton On 27/03/2008, *Michael Horowitz* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I just read how a target=_blank is not part of xhtml Why not. I can't imagine its better practice to replace it with javascript. http://weblogtoolscollection.com/archives/2004/01/02/targetblank-xhtml-1 0-strict-conversion/ -- Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml
I see your point, Thom. The exception, IMO, is when you link to a PDF .. the Acrobat Reader takes over the window and the only way to go back in the same window is to use the back button in the browser .. not very good practice, IMO. Most people would just close the reader thinking they would be back on the page they left .. and they're not. I have seen many questions from people who have done just this and lost the place they wanted to be. In other cases, I do see your point that users want to control those things .. although I wonder how many people would know how to do that. Not everyone who uses the internet is all that websavvy. Nancy - Original Message - From: Thomas Thomassen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 10:01 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml Poping up windows makes assumtion of the user's behaviour. I for one find it very annoying when sites force open a new window. If I want to navigate a link I open the link up in a new tab. Forcing the link to open up in a new window doesn't make me stay on the site, it just makes me click extra to close the page that I navigated from. If a site constantly pops open windows I often just leave it. I argue that it's best to leave the user to control these things as people have very different habbits. -Thom - Original Message - From: Nancy Gill [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 5:03 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml I totally agree .. in fact just having this conversation elsewhere. How can javascript be more accessible when those most concerned with accessibility will probably turn it off anyway? Makes no sense to have this removed .. I open new windows all the time .. for PDFs .. for links that go offsite, etc. Nancy - Original Message - From: Michael Horowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 8:44 AM Subject: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml I just read how a target=”_blank” is not part of xhtml Why not. I can't imagine its better practice to replace it with javascript. http://weblogtoolscollection.com/archives/2004/01/02/targetblank-xhtml-10-strict-conversion/ -- Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.1/1345 - Release Date: 3/26/2008 6:50 PM *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.1/1345 - Release Date: 3/26/2008 6:50 PM *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml
Thomas Thomassen wrote: Poping up windows makes assumtion of the user's behaviour. Making assumptions about users' needs and behavior is your job as a designer/developer. Which is not to say everyone makes the best possible decisions. :-) Not everything built with (X)HTML is a brochureware site; people build browser-based applications, and sometimes even full-fledged frame use makes sense (e.g. JavaDoc, for one). As far as opening windows -- click on the Help menu item in your browser or another desktop application right now, and tell me if the help screen takes over your entire application window space, or, just possibly, *opens a new window*. Wow. Maybe this *is* an acceptable behavior *for some circumstances*. Horses for courses... -- Hassan Schroeder - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Webtuitive Design === (+1) 408-621-3445 === http://webtuitive.com dream. code. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml
On 27 Mar 2008, at 15:44, Michael Horowitz wrote: I just read how a target=”_blank” is not part of xhtml You read wrong. It is not part of Strict (HTML or XHTML), it is part of Transitional. Why not. Opening new windows is behaviour and thus out of scope for a markup language that describes document structure and semantics. I can't imagine its better practice to replace it with javascript. http://weblogtoolscollection.com/archives/2004/01/02/targetblank- xhtml-10-strict-conversion/ Not really - that makes it harder to filter out target=_blank with a proxy. Sticking to a single window is usually a better idea. http:// diveintoaccessibility.org/day_16_not_opening_new_windows.html -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ http://blog.dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml
On 27 Mar 2008, at 16:31, Hassan Schroeder wrote: Michael Horowitz wrote: I just read how a target=”_blank” is not part of xhtml It's not part of XHTML 1.0 Strict or Transitional It is part of Transitional. -- it's part of XHTML 1.0 Frameset. Frameset is for frameSET documents, i.e. those with a frameset instead of a body. They aren't suitable for most pages on the web. They include the target attribute because the alternative content section lets you use anything in Transitional. -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ http://blog.dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml
On 27 Mar 2008, at 16:09, Rob Kirton wrote: I would recommend that you use target=_new and then use XHTML transitional DTD Don't do that. _new is not (X)HTML. http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/types.html#h-6.16 Paraphrasing: Except for the reserved names (_blank, _self, _parent, _top), frame target names must begin with an alphabetic character -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ http://blog.dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml
Sure, there are cases where you would wish to open a new window. But I wouldn't compare a website and a web application, or desktop application. For websites I don't see the need to pop up windows left and right because the links lead off-site. This is something that's often done with the intent of keeping the user on the site. However, that won't help if the user is really done at that site, just creates extra steps for the user to do so. Frames and popup windows is fine features to use in web based applications. I'll agree to that. I've used it when making some HTA applications myself. But as I said, it's a different fish from websites. -Thom - Original Message - From: Hassan Schroeder [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 6:59 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml Thomas Thomassen wrote: Poping up windows makes assumtion of the user's behaviour. Making assumptions about users' needs and behavior is your job as a designer/developer. Which is not to say everyone makes the best possible decisions. :-) Not everything built with (X)HTML is a brochureware site; people build browser-based applications, and sometimes even full-fledged frame use makes sense (e.g. JavaDoc, for one). As far as opening windows -- click on the Help menu item in your browser or another desktop application right now, and tell me if the help screen takes over your entire application window space, or, just possibly, *opens a new window*. Wow. Maybe this *is* an acceptable behavior *for some circumstances*. Horses for courses... -- Hassan Schroeder - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Webtuitive Design === (+1) 408-621-3445 === http://webtuitive.com dream. code. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml
Thomas Thomassen wrote: Frames and popup windows is fine features to use in web based applications. I'll agree to that. Which is exactly my point -- why remove (or even deprecate) a useful capability because it's been abused by some? -- Hassan Schroeder - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Webtuitive Design === (+1) 408-621-3445 === http://webtuitive.com dream. code. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml
On Mar 27, 2008, at 12:11 PM, Rob Kirton wrote: of course you are right there, however if the brief says so I know, I know... sigh / I'm in the middle of half a dozen conversations in which which I'm being commanded to make hideous assaults on usability - but I do feel duty-bound in every case to point out that it is a usability issue, and the possible repercussions. But, heck, what do any of us know, right? Andrew *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml
As for PDFs I find it ok that they open in a new window. As a personal preferance. But for regular links I feel that it's best leaving them alone. I've seen many novice computer users get confused when a link opens in a new window as they don't allways realise they're now navigating in a new window. When they want to navigate back to where they where they find that the back button suddenly doesn't work and they fumble trying to find their way back. -Thom - Original Message - From: Nancy Gill [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 6:32 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml I see your point, Thom. The exception, IMO, is when you link to a PDF .. the Acrobat Reader takes over the window and the only way to go back in the same window is to use the back button in the browser .. not very good practice, IMO. Most people would just close the reader thinking they would be back on the page they left .. and they're not. I have seen many questions from people who have done just this and lost the place they wanted to be. In other cases, I do see your point that users want to control those things .. although I wonder how many people would know how to do that. Not everyone who uses the internet is all that websavvy. Nancy - Original Message - From: Thomas Thomassen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 10:01 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml Poping up windows makes assumtion of the user's behaviour. I for one find it very annoying when sites force open a new window. If I want to navigate a link I open the link up in a new tab. Forcing the link to open up in a new window doesn't make me stay on the site, it just makes me click extra to close the page that I navigated from. If a site constantly pops open windows I often just leave it. I argue that it's best to leave the user to control these things as people have very different habbits. -Thom - Original Message - From: Nancy Gill [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 5:03 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml I totally agree .. in fact just having this conversation elsewhere. How can javascript be more accessible when those most concerned with accessibility will probably turn it off anyway? Makes no sense to have this removed .. I open new windows all the time .. for PDFs .. for links that go offsite, etc. Nancy - Original Message - From: Michael Horowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 8:44 AM Subject: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml I just read how a target=”_blank” is not part of xhtml Why not. I can't imagine its better practice to replace it with javascript. http://weblogtoolscollection.com/archives/2004/01/02/targetblank-xhtml-10-strict-conversion/ -- Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.1/1345 - Release Date: 3/26/2008 6:50 PM *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.1/1345 - Release Date: 3/26/2008 6:50 PM *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml
I have seen that too Thom .. and you have a good point. I have also had clients specifically request that while they want to link to other sites, they don't want the user to be off their site either. And even I don't do frames. ;) Nancy - Original Message - From: Thomas Thomassen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 11:08 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml As for PDFs I find it ok that they open in a new window. As a personal preferance. But for regular links I feel that it's best leaving them alone. I've seen many novice computer users get confused when a link opens in a new window as they don't allways realise they're now navigating in a new window. When they want to navigate back to where they where they find that the back button suddenly doesn't work and they fumble trying to find their way back. -Thom - Original Message - From: Nancy Gill [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 6:32 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml I see your point, Thom. The exception, IMO, is when you link to a PDF .. the Acrobat Reader takes over the window and the only way to go back in the same window is to use the back button in the browser .. not very good practice, IMO. Most people would just close the reader thinking they would be back on the page they left .. and they're not. I have seen many questions from people who have done just this and lost the place they wanted to be. In other cases, I do see your point that users want to control those things .. although I wonder how many people would know how to do that. Not everyone who uses the internet is all that websavvy. Nancy - Original Message - From: Thomas Thomassen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 10:01 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml Poping up windows makes assumtion of the user's behaviour. I for one find it very annoying when sites force open a new window. If I want to navigate a link I open the link up in a new tab. Forcing the link to open up in a new window doesn't make me stay on the site, it just makes me click extra to close the page that I navigated from. If a site constantly pops open windows I often just leave it. I argue that it's best to leave the user to control these things as people have very different habbits. -Thom - Original Message - From: Nancy Gill [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 5:03 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml I totally agree .. in fact just having this conversation elsewhere. How can javascript be more accessible when those most concerned with accessibility will probably turn it off anyway? Makes no sense to have this removed .. I open new windows all the time .. for PDFs .. for links that go offsite, etc. Nancy - Original Message - From: Michael Horowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 8:44 AM Subject: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml I just read how a target=”_blank” is not part of xhtml Why not. I can't imagine its better practice to replace it with javascript. http://weblogtoolscollection.com/archives/2004/01/02/targetblank-xhtml-10-strict-conversion/ -- Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.1/1345 - Release Date: 3/26/2008 6:50 PM *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.1/1345 - Release Date: 3/26/2008 6:50 PM *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] a target= blank not part of xhtml
I agree, where possible, you shouldnt make decisions for your visitors. Users will return to a website using the back button if they want to. Darren Lovelock Munky Online Web Design http://www.munkyonline.co.uk/ http://www.munkyonline.co.uk T: +44 (0)20-8816-8893 _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andrew Maben Sent: 27 March 2008 16:01 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] a target= blank not part of xhtml On Mar 27, 2008, at 11:44 AM, Michael Horowitz wrote: I can't imagine its better practice to replace it with javascript. No, better practice is to avoid foisting new windows on users altogether. (IMHO - but I don't think I'm alone...) Andrew *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] a target= blank not part of xhtml
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael Horowitz Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 8:45 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] a target= blank not part of xhtml I just read how a target=_blank is not part of xhtml Why not. I can't imagine its better practice to replace it with javascript. http://weblogtoolscollection.com/archives/2004/01/02/targetblank-xhtml-10- strict-conversion/ If you really need to open a new window, this JS solution may help as it does not require extra markup: http://tjkdesign.com/articles/popup_window_with_no_extra_markup.asp -- Regards, Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] a target= blank not part of xhtml
Poping up windows makes assumtion of the user's behaviour. I second that. Originally I had the target solution, then (to make it XHTML-compliant) an inline JS solution. With the next redesign I will throw it out altogether and just indicate external links through CSS, but leave it to the user to decide on new windows. Cheers, Jens The information contained in this e-mail message and any accompanying files is or may be confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, dissemination, reliance, forwarding, printing or copying of this e-mail or any attached files is unauthorised. This e-mail is subject to copyright. No part of it should be reproduced, adapted or communicated without the written consent of the copyright owner. If you have received this e-mail in error please advise the sender immediately by return e-mail or telephone and delete all copies. Fairfax does not guarantee the accuracy or completeness of any information contained in this e-mail or attached files. Internet communications are not secure, therefore Fairfax does not accept legal responsibility for the contents of this message or attached files. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml
Yes but you choose to do so rather than being forced to do so. Usability tests still show that opening a new window confuses people. They can't work out whey they can't go back and don't seem to be aware of the task bar. I'm not sure how users react to tabbed browsers but in my own limited experience its very much the same, they seem totally unaware of the tab bar. Nancy Gill wrote: I totally agree .. in fact just having this conversation elsewhere. How can javascript be more accessible when those most concerned with accessibility will probably turn it off anyway? Makes no sense to have this removed .. I open new windows all the time .. for PDFs .. for links that go offsite, etc. Nancy - Original Message - From: Michael Horowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 8:44 AM Subject: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml I just read how a target=”_blank” is not part of xhtml Why not. I can't imagine its better practice to replace it with javascript. http://weblogtoolscollection.com/archives/2004/01/02/targetblank-xhtml-10-strict-conversion/ -- Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.1/1345 - Release Date: 3/26/2008 6:50 PM *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
