RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list
Don't worry, as a newbie here and to a lot of the standards, I should bring the bar down a few pegs when my response to an answer is simple Huh? BTW guess it's time I said hi, instead of lurking like I have been for the past week. I've recently come over here from CSS-F list, which I was only on for like a week or 2 when they decided a merger with this one would be a good idea. Actually I have done some CSS and standards compliant work before, so the concept isn't totally forign to me. How ever, as I look at some of the answers and site checks, I still have a way to go, both technicaly, and artisticly. I have noticed that this list seem does seem pretty friendly, glad I happen to stuble acrossed it. Micheal Peters -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ian Lloyd Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2004 11:23 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list On 9 Mar 2004, at 21:21, Paul Ross wrote: The trouble with this list - and the people on it - is that you are all too helpful and friendly. I am also a member of the Webesign-L.com list and would never post there because the list-mom and most of the members seem to be arrogant elitist techno-fascists who sneer and chide those of us further down the learning curve. Ahh, so you're friends with Steven Champeon then? Heh ;-) I know what you mean though. Trouble is, it can easily happen with WSG list - all it takes is time and people will learn more, ask more complicated questions and attempt to show how clever they are by posting complicated 'helpful' answers. That's the trouble with discussion lists the world over.. Ian Lloyd ~ WEB: http://www.ian-lloyd.com/ | AIM: uklloydi Round-the-World trip blog: http://ianandmanda.typepad.com/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list
Hi Peters, Welcome to the list. That is one of our aims here - to keep it informative but also as friendly as possible. We have designers and developers with a very wide range of skills and skill levels. But we are all in the same web standards boat :) The best quote on friendly attitude would have to be Eric Meyer's: quote The thing about CSS is that it's a tool. It's a very powerful tool, one that has the potential to become even more powerful and therefore useful, but it's still a tool. People should of course always use the best tool for a job, whatever it might be, and the expert ought to help others use the tool better. But no matter how skilled you are with a tool, you shouldn't use it to hit other people. /quote http://www.dmxzone.com/showDetail.asp?TypeId=28NewsId=5307LinkFile=page2.h tm I have noticed that this list seem does seem pretty friendly, glad I happen to stuble acrossed it. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list / web developers involvement in development of appropriate standards?
Hi, I am a firm believer in standards and mostly just keep an eye on the list (very erratically) to see what is going on and find out about resources that I might have missed out on otherwise. I actively support standards but am beginning to get annoyed at some of the latest standards coming out as they don't seem to meet the real life needs of the web development community (take XHTML 2.0 for instance). I don't want to boycott standards - that'd be dumb - but I would like to see web developers being able to provide more feedback regarding standards under development. The obvious consideration is to become a member of the W3C - but unfortunately membership is restricted to those individuals and companies who can afford to pay $57,000 per year in membership fees. That would be why there is only 400 member companies. I find most of the active supporters of standards tend to be smaller companies and individuals - especially those who are willing to share information with others. Does anyone else see anything wrong with this picture? I did write to the W3C via email but have not yet received a reply. Anyway, I guess my question is, is this list an appropriate place to discuss such issues and perhaps discuss ways that developers can have more of a say about what should be considered for standards? Just something that has been beginning to bug me more and more over the last few years... I follow standards, I take pains and efforts to use them, I tell other people to use them and share details of tools that will help make following standards easier... But do I get any say in what goes into those standards... Not really. Is it just me who feels this way? On a totally different topic (one that is definitely suitable to this list - well, I think so anyway): If you are not already using it, a useful tool/reference for people new to CSS is the devedge sidebar tabs (http://devedge.netscape.com/toolbox/sidebars/) and checky (http://checky.mozdev.org/) that are available for Mozilla/Netscape. (I use IE to work in because that is what a lot of our clients use, but I always have mozilla open for testing and also for quick access to the devedge sidebar - it very neatly bookmarks the W3C standards so you can find what you are after straight away). M. e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list
I think I am a lil late tocontribute here but I would like to say that I agree with Justin. Forums are a good tool for organising topics but for some who are too busy totake the trouble to log into forums and check the posts, it is a turn off. I would prefer for the list to remain as it is now.At least I can take my time to read the mails when I have the time to do it. The only downside is that mailing list is thatit is hard to organise it tospecific folders. I have a folder for WSG but90% of the mail ended up in my inbox instead because the "from field" is actually using the sender's name. About having different categories of topics, I would go for it only if I am sure that those mails would go to the folders I specify..If not, it would be too confusing for me and I would not know where to start reading from. Lastly I want to say that I love WSG! People are helpful and although it is not a huge list, it doesn't matter. What matters most is the culture/attitude behind the list members. That is the only thing that makes me stay in the list and not to be shy/afraid to show my dumb side when it comes to issue I am unsure of. In fact, I would say that WSG has the best attitude so far compared to other lists. To Russ and Peter...you guys did a great job in maintaining the spirit! With Regards Jaime Wong ~~ SODesires Design Team http://www.sodesires.com ~~ ---Original Message--- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 03/10/04 11:59:26 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list On Wednesday, March 10, 2004, at 02:21PM, Paul Ross wrote: Having said that - when we get to 1,000 members I guess something will have to be done or the success of the list could implode in on itself and the noise traffic become too much to handle. I would suggest that you think of switching to a forum based website much like the excellent http://forums.australianinfront.com.au/Default.aspx As soon as lists move to forums, I stop posting, stop reading, and stop helping, as do many others.Web browser-based discussion lists are difficult, slow and tedious at the best of times, which is the complete opposite of mail and news groups, which were *designed especially* for threading, replies and message based discussion. Everything related to discussion happens faster and easier with a mail client than it does with a browser. Browser-based discussion has one positive; that being the fact that new subscribers can read old posts and search for topics before posting. This of course can easily be overcome with web-based archives of email lists (which is common anyway). --- Justin French http://indent.com.au * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * .
Re: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list
Russ wrote in... Re: [WSG] Cascading background colors The important question is - do you know why it worked the second time around? The answer is that the second rule has more specificity... The above is a perfect example of the purpose of this mailing list. Russ' reply to Peter's how to directly follows up on the reasoning behind the CSS web standard. This is a win win situation for all of us, not just Peter. Leo * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list
On Thursday, March 11, 2004, at 07:28 AM, Taco Fleur wrote: The only downside is that mailing list is that it is hard to organise it to specific folders. I have a folder for WSG but 90% of the mail ended up in my inbox instead because the from field is actually using the sender's name.\] You can also filter on the [WSG] in the subject, which is fool-proof. --- Justin French http://indent.com.au * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list
Justin French wrote: You can also filter on the [WSG] in the subject, which is fool-proof. I'd rather not. That would filter out offlist messages as well. I filter on the to field. To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Kristof * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list
I filter on the [WSG] in the subject line and would suggest that if you want to add other categories, it be done by adding to the [WSG]. For example, [WSG][CSS] subject,or [WSG] - CSS - subject. Justin French wrote: On Thursday, March 11, 2004, at 07:28 AM, Taco Fleur wrote: The only downside is that mailing list is that it is hard to organise it to specific folders. I have a folder for WSG but 90% of the mail ended up in my inbox instead because the from field is actually using the sender's name.\] You can also filter on the [WSG] in the subject, which is fool-proof. --- Justin French http://indent.com.au * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list
I would lean towards mikes assertion that: Rather, I think this list is much more valuable discussing web standards, promoting them, commenting on them, sharing resources, educating each other etc etc discussing generic problems like how to deal with CSS implementation in browser X on OS Y would be OK as well, but site/page specific stuff should be forwarded to lists like: css-discuss http://www.css-discuss.org/ webdesign-L http://webdesign-L.com/ -- Neerav Bhatt http://www.bhatt.id.au * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list
Hi Mike The purpose of this list is two fold: QA stuff and general web standards discussion/news updates. We have tried to create a culture on this list that is very topic based rather than creating a really chatty community with lots of OT posts about what people got up to on the weekend. So basically we want this list to contain anything and everything as long as its on topic. I realise that there are other CSS QA lists out there, but this list is different in the sense that it is really the extension of a group and the group's meetings. I would say that at the moment the membership of the list these days far exceeds the attendance of our meetings, but the list has evolved out of the group group meetings. People who can't make it to meetings are always welcomed encouraged to organise meetings in their areas. We are very aware of list volume issues and understand that this is a touchy subject for some, but at the same time getting too restrictive will alienate other list members. I've got a graphic artist in here who has similar complaints to yours - he finds Russ's emails with lists of links very interesting because they give him a good idea of issues that he has to design around and techniques that we can be employing. But he doesn't code CSS all day so he doesn't really get much from the how do I get this float working posts. What would you think about a blog RSS feed for news stuff (or would this just be another CSS blog)? Or two lists, one for news and one for implementation issues? Anyway its an open issue at the moment - we're still trying to find the right mix. Cheers Mark -- Mark Stanton Technical Director Gruden Pty Ltd Tel: 9956 6388 Mob: 0410 458 201 Fax: 9956 8433 http://www.gruden.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list
Hi Mike, I understand what you're getting at however I think you need to invert the way you're looking at it and see the increasing volume of quality posts as well. Personally, I think this is a great list and yes there are times when I think this or that post could have held off posting. However, I've equally enjoyed seeing the struggles others are going through and the help they are given. In the end IMPLEMENTATION is what this is all about, I've no interest in joining a list for the academic discussion of standards such as I'd expect say a W3C list to be. I'm on this list for the gimme something I can use basis and on that score there is almost too much. I think the phrase can't make an omelette without cracking eggs applies here, realistically there has to be some less on topic posts as part of any community. If as you say your real concern is email volume then I think you need to ask if that's the right motivation. I don't see any issue with simply filtering WSG mail into a mailbox and scanning it picking out anything interesting. Besides I don't see this list as high volume, for example, I found the flashcoders list overwhelming even in digest form! I think it's good you pointed out those alternative lists and I do agree that if all someone is doing is posting on the list once a month to ask how to position this or that then that's not really discussing web standards. On the other hand if we can watch them solve this then that issue and the discussions/decisions surrounding that, then we see the final result then that is relevant. I just think realistically you cannot expect that from all posts. If it were a list on house building standards how off topic would a discussion about bricklaying be? In the end there are guidelines in place and it's a simple matter of re-routing when necessary. So possibly what you're really asking for is a firmer enforcement of the list guidelines. Anyway, no flames here, just my thoughts, Nick ok, so at the risk of getting flamed :) I'm writing about what the purpose of this list is. I've found it to be a very good resource and fully support the idea of promoting the understanding and use of web standards. What I've been struggling with over the past 2/3 months though is the increasing volume of posts concerned with what I'd call how-to matters. Questions about getting something to work with CSS, or about needing help with a web-related problem. These, and answers to them, have far and away made up the bulk of posts to the list. If the purpose of this list is to answer these questions, then that's fine. But personally I'd probably unsubscribe as the volume is just too much. There are excellent lists already out there: css-discuss http://www.css-discuss.org/ webdesign-L http://webdesign-L.com/ that are set up for this type of help. I don't think we should try and duplicate what they do. Rather, I think this list is much more valuable discussing web standards, promoting them, commenting on them, sharing resources, educating each other etc etc What do others think about this? I have emailed Russ about this, and he was of the view that the list members of the list community should set the rules for posting, topics of discussion etc, and also that he was happy for me to post to the list about this and get feedback etc. I guess that my main concern is drowning under weight of emails! I'm on the two lists mentioned above and really don't want to be on another duplicating what they do. But I do want to be on a list discussing web standards. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list
I find that whilst there would appear to be a clear separation between a discussion of web standards and how-to's, quite often a look at someone's source code sparks off an interesting and valuable debate about the web standards issues involved. The overlap would seem to add richness to the list, rather than just volume. There also seems to be a tendency to email off-list when offering specific or extensive one-on-one help (which could perhaps be encouraged)? One of the downsides of a good list is that it becomes a popular list!!! Having said this I am not necessarily against the idea of two lists - I'd join both! James -Original Message- From: Mark Stanton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, 10 March 2004 12:55 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list Hi Mike The purpose of this list is two fold: QA stuff and general web standards discussion/news updates. We have tried to create a culture on this list that is very topic based rather than creating a really chatty community with lots of OT posts about what people got up to on the weekend. So basically we want this list to contain anything and everything as long as its on topic. I realise that there are other CSS QA lists out there, but this list is different in the sense that it is really the extension of a group and the group's meetings. I would say that at the moment the membership of the list these days far exceeds the attendance of our meetings, but the list has evolved out of the group group meetings. People who can't make it to meetings are always welcomed encouraged to organise meetings in their areas. We are very aware of list volume issues and understand that this is a touchy subject for some, but at the same time getting too restrictive will alienate other list members. I've got a graphic artist in here who has similar complaints to yours - he finds Russ's emails with lists of links very interesting because they give him a good idea of issues that he has to design around and techniques that we can be employing. But he doesn't code CSS all day so he doesn't really get much from the how do I get this float working posts. What would you think about a blog RSS feed for news stuff (or would this just be another CSS blog)? Or two lists, one for news and one for implementation issues? Anyway its an open issue at the moment - we're still trying to find the right mix. Cheers Mark -- Mark Stanton Technical Director Gruden Pty Ltd Tel: 9956 6388 Mob: 0410 458 201 Fax: 9956 8433 http://www.gruden.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list
The trouble with this list - and the people on it - is that you are all too helpful and friendly. I am also a member of the Webesign-L.com list and would never post there because the list-mom and most of the members seem to be arrogant elitist techno-fascists who sneer and chide those of us further down the learning curve. Learning to build to web standards does require a steep learning curve and this list is an excellent resource and helping hand when you need it. Having said that - when we get to 1,000 members I guess something will have to be done or the success of the list could implode in on itself and the noise traffic become too much to handle. I would suggest that you think of switching to a forum based website much like the excellent http://forums.australianinfront.com.au/Default.aspx Regards PAUL ROSS SkyRocket Design Co http://www.skyrocket.com.au - This mail sent through IMP: http://horde.org/imp/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list
When I joined this list I already knew that I wanted to pursue the web standards approach. But I was at the hair-pulling stage and needing help. I've seen many people join since who are as I was then (not so long ago either, and am sure to be again). Two principles have been on my mind. 1) I did not want to bother the list until I had made an exhaustive search of the websites detailing difficulties with various browsers and how to solve them. In other words, I did not think it fair that I should ask others to solve issues without my having worked very hard to solve them myself. 2) I did not want simply to be a 'taker', so if I had learnt anything, and had the time to do it, I wanted to be able to give back to others who may be encountering the same problems. I have to confess I have found the first principle easier to observe than the second, and I am full of admiration for members of the list who continue to help fellow list members with their code. I think this is what keeps the list 'grounded', and makes us a feel welcome to be here. I once heard a psychologist describe relationships in terms of fleas and dogs. Some people are fleas who suck on their 'dog' partners. In some relationships, both partners are fleas. To all the 'dogs' on this list, a big 'thank you'! -Hugh Todd And I think this needs to be a place where we both learn to understand the big picture and wrestle with the nitty gritty. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list
In my struggles to come to terms with css, this list has been an absolute godsend as far as i am concerned, stranded as I am in sunny nq.Somehow it seems very much like a bunch of mates helping one another out. (That sounds a bit mushy but there you have it) I haven't posted that often, however have read all emails avidly over a coffee and a cig during my down time. Russ's advice is always brilliant, along with many, manyothers, and lately the amount of moral support and help offered to membershas given me a nice warm fuzzy feeling!!! Let's face it people unassociated with the industry just don't understand what we are going through here when things turn pearshaped. I dont know what the answer is but I do knowI would like this list to continue on more or less as it is but do understand the need for standards stuff too... but at present this is my best resource for guiding me through the maze that is css. I think I have come ahead in leaps and bounds as a direct result of this list. So thanks to all. Jackie ReidMock Orange Web Site Development1st Floor92 Victoria StreetMACKAY Q 4740Ph: 07 4953 4035 [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Universal Head To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 12:36 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list It's tricky, because now that I'm getting up to speed with CSS I tend to skim and skip the 'how-tos'. But then, I never would have got up to speed in the first place without the 'how-to' help from this list.POn 10/03/2004, at 12:55 PM, Mark Stanton wrote: I've got a graphic artist in here who has similar complaints to yours - hefinds Russ's emails with lists of links very interesting because they givehim a good idea of issues that he has to design around and techniques thatwe can be employing. But he doesn't code CSS all day so he doesn't reallyget much from the "how do I get this float working" posts.Universal HeadDesign That Works.7/43 Bridge Rd StanmoreNSW 2048 AustraliaT (+612) 9517 1466F (+612) 9565 4747E [EMAIL PROTECTED]W www.universalhead.com
Re: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list
On Wednesday, March 10, 2004, at 02:21 PM, Paul Ross wrote: Having said that - when we get to 1,000 members I guess something will have to be done or the success of the list could implode in on itself and the noise traffic become too much to handle. I would suggest that you think of switching to a forum based website much like the excellent http://forums.australianinfront.com.au/Default.aspx As soon as lists move to forums, I stop posting, stop reading, and stop helping, as do many others. Web browser-based discussion lists are difficult, slow and tedious at the best of times, which is the complete opposite of mail and news groups, which were *designed especially* for threading, replies and message based discussion. Everything related to discussion happens faster and easier with a mail client than it does with a browser. Browser-based discussion has one positive; that being the fact that new subscribers can read old posts and search for topics before posting. This of course can easily be overcome with web-based archives of email lists (which is common anyway). --- Justin French http://indent.com.au * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list
Mike et. al., I'm very new to the WSG list. I have been feeling my way around to see what is appropriate for this list. I'm not in AU. I'm in New York so I won't be attending meetings anytime soon. I joined this list because I truly believe that web design should follow strict but accessible standards based design. As such we need to discuss the evolving nature of web standards. But in the real world web standards are not an isolated topic. The debate cannot be conducted at the academic level without the experiences of what works and what doesn't. I believe and sense that the dedicated people here realize that for web standards to work in the field they must be experienced and explored in the field. Therefore, IMHO, I would like to see this list retain the how to and how not to implement a particular area of the standard. However, human interface design is designed and developed by humans so I expect some humorous off topic post to break the ice. I think we all know why we're here. Well that's what I think Leo * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list
I am a convert to using CSS for layout and tables for tabular data, only since I joined this list, and only due to the help Russ and all others have provided. If I never had gotten that help from this list I would have still been using tables for layout, and we would all be further away from a Standardized web! Since I joined I also seen many people complain about the traffic on this mailing list, which compared to other mailing lists is nothing! If you would have any content related to CSS I wonder how many people would leave this list? If you want Standards you need to reach people, a lot of people, and not only those people who already know about standards and what not. I'd say, if you go back to original idea behind this list you'd be closing yourself of to the world who needs to hear you guys! Taco Fleur 07 3535 5072 Tell me and I will forget Show me and I will remember Teach me and I will learn -Original Message- From: Mike Brown [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, 10 March 2004 11:40 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list ok, so at the risk of getting flamed :) I'm writing about what the purpose of this list is. I've found it to be a very good resource and fully support the idea of promoting the understanding and use of web standards. What I've been struggling with over the past 2/3 months though is the increasing volume of posts concerned with what I'd call how-to matters. Questions about getting something to work with CSS, or about needing help with a web-related problem. These, and answers to them, have far and away made up the bulk of posts to the list. If the purpose of this list is to answer these questions, then that's fine. But personally I'd probably unsubscribe as the volume is just too much. There are excellent lists already out there: css-discuss http://www.css-discuss.org/ webdesign-L http://webdesign-L.com/ that are set up for this type of help. I don't think we should try and duplicate what they do. Rather, I think this list is much more valuable discussing web standards, promoting them, commenting on them, sharing resources, educating each other etc etc What do others think about this? I have emailed Russ about this, and he was of the view that the list members of the list community should set the rules for posting, topics of discussion etc, and also that he was happy for me to post to the list about this and get feedback etc. I guess that my main concern is drowning under weight of emails! I'm on the two lists mentioned above and really don't want to be on another duplicating what they do. But I do want to be on a list discussing web standards. Regards Mike Brown SIGNIFY :: the logic behind ph: +64 4 803-3211 | fax: +64 4 803-3241 mob: +64 0274 885-992 | http://www.signify.co.nz P.O. Box 24-068, Manners St, Wellington Level 8, CMC Building, 89 Courtenay Pl, Wellington * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list
PS. for those of you who are tired of to many emails in their email client, why not
propose a new standard for the Subject of the emails going to the list?
[CSS]
[WSG] Web Standards
[OT] Off topic
{TOT] Totally Of Topic ;-)
That way you can auto delete
[CSS]
[OT]
{TOT]
And read anything with WSG
Taco Fleur
07 3535 5072
Tell me and I will forget
Show me and I will remember
Teach me and I will learn
-Original Message-
From: Mike Brown [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, 10 March 2004 11:40 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list
ok, so at the risk of getting flamed :)
I'm writing about what the purpose of this list is. I've found it to
be a very good resource and fully support the idea of promoting the
understanding and use of web standards.
What I've been struggling with over the past 2/3 months though is the
increasing volume of posts concerned with what I'd call how-to
matters. Questions about getting something to work with CSS, or about
needing help with a web-related problem. These, and answers to them,
have far and away made up the bulk of posts to the list.
If the purpose of this list is to answer these questions, then that's
fine. But personally I'd probably unsubscribe as the volume is just
too much. There are excellent lists already out there:
css-discuss http://www.css-discuss.org/
webdesign-L http://webdesign-L.com/
that are set up for this type of help.
I don't think we should try and duplicate what they do. Rather, I
think this list is much more valuable discussing web standards,
promoting them, commenting on them, sharing resources, educating each
other etc etc
What do others think about this?
I have emailed Russ about this, and he was of the view that the list
members of the list community should set the rules for posting, topics
of discussion etc, and also that he was happy for me to post to the
list about this and get feedback etc.
I guess that my main concern is drowning under weight of emails! I'm
on the two lists mentioned above and really don't want to be on
another duplicating what they do. But I do want to be on a list
discussing web standards.
Regards
Mike Brown
SIGNIFY :: the logic behind
ph: +64 4 803-3211 | fax: +64 4 803-3241
mob: +64 0274 885-992 | http://www.signify.co.nz
P.O. Box 24-068, Manners St, Wellington
Level 8, CMC Building, 89 Courtenay Pl, Wellington
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
*
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
*
RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list
Hi Taco
[CSS]
[WSG] Web Standards
[OT] Off topic
{TOT] Totally Of Topic ;-)
If you're in the mood to write a [OT] or [TOT] message - please don't. Mail
volume is an issue and the list mums (Russ Peter) have made call - keep it
on topic or post else where (like CFAUSSIE where this stuff is ok).
I'm not meaning to be harsh but we need to be considerate of those that are
concerned about mail volume.
Cheers
Mark
--
Mark Stanton
Technical Director
Gruden Pty Ltd
Tel: 9956 6388
Mob: 0410 458 201
Fax: 9956 8433
http://www.gruden.com
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
*
Re: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list
i like that idea.
Sennan LagalugaMock Orange Web Site
DevelopmentU: www.mockorange.com.auP: 07 4953
4035F: 07 4953 40301st
Floor, 92 Victoria StreetMackay Q Australia
4740
- Original Message -
From:
Taco
Fleur
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 1:51
PM
Subject: RE: [WSG] Purpose of this
mailing list
PS. for those of you who are tired of to many emails in
their email client, why not propose a new standard for the Subject of the
emails going to the list?[CSS] [WSG] Web Standards[OT] Off
topic{TOT] Totally Of Topic ;-)That way you can auto delete
[CSS] [OT]{TOT]And read anything with WSGTaco
Fleur07 3535 5072
RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list
Hi there,
I've also recently been a little concerned by the amount of how to
posts, and the repetitive back and forth email that some of these
posts generate.
However, I do realise that people find some of these posts valuable.
When thinking about it a bit more, I realised that it's actually the
solutions to these problems that people find valuable.
So how about doing something similar to what Simon Willison has done
for the CSS-Discuss mailing list? He has created a companion site
that basically has a list of FAQs, tecnhiques, how-to's, step by step
examples etc.
We have the Resources page on our site,
http://webstandardsgroup.org/resources/ so maybe we should get in
there and use it in a similar way. This would be beneficial to
everyone, both new members and old, as we could point people with
specifc problems to the resources pages, and maybe keep the list a
little less heavy in the process.
This would take some effort on our behalf - I am happy to dedicate
some time into getting the Resources pages up to speed, and I know
others would as well.
What does everyone think?
Regards.
David McDonald
Original Message
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:53:38 +1100
Hi Taco
[CSS]
[WSG] Web Standards
[OT] Off topic
{TOT] Totally Of Topic ;-)
If you're in the mood to write a [OT] or [TOT] message - please
don't. Mail
volume is an issue and the list mums (Russ Peter) have made call -
keep it
on topic or post else where (like CFAUSSIE where this stuff is ok).
I'm not meaning to be harsh but we need to be considerate of those
that are
concerned about mail volume.
Cheers
Mark
--
Mark Stanton
Technical Director
Gruden Pty Ltd
Tel: 9956 6388
Mob: 0410 458 201
Fax: 9956 8433
http://www.gruden.com
*
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*
Regards,
David McDonald
Web Designer
http://www.davidmcdonald.org
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Re: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list
Alas finally some sanity for my inbox
Quoting Sennan Lagaluga [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
i like that idea.
Sennan Lagaluga
Mock Orange Web Site Development
U: www.mockorange.com.au
P: 07 4953 4035
F: 07 4953 4030
1st Floor, 92 Victoria Street
Mackay Q Australia 4740
- Original Message -
From: Taco Fleur
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 1:51 PM
Subject: RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list
PS. for those of you who are tired of to many emails in their email client,
why not propose a new standard for the Subject of the emails going to the
list?
[CSS]
[WSG] Web Standards
[OT] Off topic
{TOT] Totally Of Topic ;-)
That way you can auto delete
[CSS]
[OT]
{TOT]
And read anything with WSG
Taco Fleur
07 3535 5072
-
This mail sent through IMP: http://horde.org/imp/
*
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*
RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list
I might just point out some of the other WSG bits pieces that many people probably aren't aware of: - the resources section http://webstandardsgroup.org/resources/ (which I believe everyone on the list is able to add to) - the WSG CMS list (buggered if I can remember how you join... Pete?) Thanks Lindsay. It's only had 8 posts so far (4 from me). See http://www.mail-archive.com/cms%40webstandardsgroup.org/ To join, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with subscribe cms (no quotes) as the body (not subject). The [WSG] is added at the mail server so Taco's would be an addition to that which I can't see working (I'd forget every time). I'm happy to set up different lists if you like, but maintenance would be a bit weird. We get a couple of hundred bounces every day (and if you've mysteriously been transformed to digest mode it means that you were bouncing for an extended period and I changed your mode so I only had one bounce per day from you to deal with). So far we have: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (The primary one) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (optional) We could also do other variants: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] This would mean that people only interested in general standards discussion could just remain on the default list and those that wanted to also get (or give) CSS help could joint the CSS list as well. I would make the [EMAIL PROTECTED] mandatory (your login is based on this one) with the others as options. There should be no increase in traffic, just a split and a possibility of significantly less traffic for the person that doesn't do CSS coding but wants to keep abreast of the other discussions. It would mean that I would bulk subscribe everyone currently on wsg@ to each of the new lists (but not cms@) and then allow you to unsub each manually if you want to as I don't want to have to enter specifics for 330ish people. Is this worth pursuing? While we're at it... Please make sure you free email account doesn't go over quota. Please don't ever request read receipts (I get most of them rather than you). P * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list
Peter Firminger wrote: We could also do other variants: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] snip/ Is this worth pursuing? Sounds good to me, although I'd be more in favour of something like: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] While we're at it... Please make sure you free email account doesn't go over quota. Please don't ever request read receipts (I get most of them rather than you). Also, please temporarily unsubscribe (or is there a 'nomail' option?) from the list if you're going to have one of those annoying 'vacation' messages. -- Lindsay Evans. Developer, Red Square Productions. [p] 8596.4000 [f] 8596.4001 [w] www.redsquare.com.au * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list [Virus checkedAU]
This email is to be read subject to the disclaimer below.
Hi all,
David McDonald [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
So how about doing something similar to what Simon Willison has done
for the CSS-Discuss mailing list? He has created a companion site
that basically has a list of FAQs, tecnhiques, how-to's, step by step
examples etc.
That would be great. Particularly a section listing common browser (IE)
bugs (with screenshots or links to relevant articles perhaps). That way we
could just post the link that's related to the problem and get rid of the
duplicates.
We have the Resources page on our site,
http://webstandardsgroup.org/resources/ so maybe we should get in
there and use it in a similar way. This would be beneficial to
everyone, both new members and old, as we could point people with
specifc problems to the resources pages, and maybe keep the list a
little less heavy in the process.
I have an evil plan... why not ask the persons we help to put together a
page with the problem and the solution and submit it afterwards. They could
consider doing this as sort of thanking the list for solving their problem
and giving back something in return.
Of course this cannot (and perhaps shouldn't) be policed that strictly but
it hey, karma works for Slashdot ;-) And writing documentation gives less
CSS-savvy users an opportunity to contribute. Other people can then edit
the docs or add to them if it's necessary.
Just a thought...
Cheers,
Vik
--
Viktor Radnai
System Administrator / Web Developer
Business Innovation Online
Ernst Young Australia
http://www.eyware.com/
http://www.eyonline.com/
Direct: +612 9248 4361
Fax: +612 9248 4073
Mobile: +61408 662 546
David
McDonald To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED] cc:
nald.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Purpose of this
mailing list [Virus checkedAU]
10/03/2004
03:38 PM
Please respond
to wsg
Hi there,
I've also recently been a little concerned by the amount of how to
posts, and the repetitive back and forth email that some of these
posts generate.
However, I do realise that people find some of these posts valuable.
When thinking about it a bit more, I realised that it's actually the
solutions to these problems that people find valuable.
So how about doing something similar to what Simon Willison has done
for the CSS-Discuss mailing list? He has created a companion site
that basically has a list of FAQs, tecnhiques, how-to's, step by step
examples etc.
We have the Resources page on our site,
http://webstandardsgroup.org/resources/ so maybe we should get in
there and use it in a similar way. This would be beneficial to
everyone, both new members and old, as we could point people with
specifc problems to the resources pages, and maybe keep the list a
little less heavy in the process.
This would take some effort on our behalf - I am happy to dedicate
some time into getting the Resources pages up to speed, and I know
others would as well.
What does everyone think?
Regards.
David McDonald
Original Message
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:53:38 +1100
Hi Taco
[CSS]
[WSG] Web Standards
[OT] Off topic
{TOT] Totally Of Topic ;-)
If you're in the mood to write a [OT] or [TOT] message - please
don't. Mail
volume is an issue and the list mums (Russ Peter) have made call -
keep it
on topic or post else where (like CFAUSSIE where this stuff is ok).
I'm not meaning to be harsh but we need to be considerate
RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list
I don't know if I'm for splitting the mailing list up into several lists. As others have said, it would then make it sort of like a forum - I would be checking several folders in my mailing client, and maybe missing out on some important or interesting post... Are others in favour of doing this? Or not? Original Message From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 16:15:35 +1100 I might just point out some of the other WSG bits pieces that many people probably aren't aware of: - the resources section http://webstandardsgroup.org/resources/ (which I believe everyone on the list is able to add to) - the WSG CMS list (buggered if I can remember how you join... Pete?) Thanks Lindsay. It's only had 8 posts so far (4 from me). See http://www.mail-archive.com/cms%40webstandardsgroup.org/ To join, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with subscribe cms (no quotes) as the body (not subject). The [WSG] is added at the mail server so Taco's would be an addition to that which I can't see working (I'd forget every time). I'm happy to set up different lists if you like, but maintenance would be a bit weird. We get a couple of hundred bounces every day (and if you've mysteriously been transformed to digest mode it means that you were bouncing for an extended period and I changed your mode so I only had one bounce per day from you to deal with). So far we have: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (The primary one) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (optional) We could also do other variants: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] This would mean that people only interested in general standards discussion could just remain on the default list and those that wanted to also get (or give) CSS help could joint the CSS list as well. I would make the [EMAIL PROTECTED] mandatory (your login is based on this one) with the others as options. There should be no increase in traffic, just a split and a possibility of significantly less traffic for the person that doesn't do CSS coding but wants to keep abreast of the other discussions. It would mean that I would bulk subscribe everyone currently on wsg@ to each of the new lists (but not cms@) and then allow you to unsub each manually if you want to as I don't want to have to enter specifics for 330ish people. Is this worth pursuing? While we're at it... Please make sure you free email account doesn't go over quota. Please don't ever request read receipts (I get most of them rather than you). P * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * Regards, David McDonald Web Designer http://www.davidmcdonald.org * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list
Title: RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list David wrote: I don't know if I'm for splitting the mailing list up into several lists. Are others in favour of doing this? Or not? I'll put my hand up for not splitting the list and also for leaving as-is. I can deal with the volume and think the continual cross-over between standards opinion/theory and practice is pretty valuable for all the reasons mentioned. the pointers to succinct explanations on Russ' maxdesign site (http://webstandardsgroup.org/resources/) or elsewhere on the web seem to work well and keep the repetitive 'how-to' emails (that are always going to come up no matter what you do) to a minimum thread length. pete Peter Ottery Lead Web Designer f2 network - www.f2.com.au 02 8596 4450
RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list
Yup, I'm in favor if it. If you want to receive all emails in one folder you can still redirect all posts from all three emails/lists to one folder, it would be just like it is now, but those people interested in WSG would benefit by not receiving anything else but just that. Can I also suggest at every outgoing email either the footer or the header you include this info, i.e. For any .. [EMAIL PROTECTED] For any CSS related blah blah send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For any HTML related blah blah send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reason being people tend to forget or get lazy, and you might be reading a post in WSG and come up with this CSS question and in in the spur of the moment you click reply and post your question to the wrong list, instead you could easily click the proper link and have it to open up a new email. Just a thought Taco Fleur Blog http://www.tacofleur.com/index/blog/ Methodology http://www.tacofleur.com/index/methodology/ Tell me and I will forget Show me and I will remember Teach me and I will learn -Original Message- From: David McDonald [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, 10 March 2004 3:39 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list I don't know if I'm for splitting the mailing list up into several lists. As others have said, it would then make it sort of like a forum - I would be checking several folders in my mailing client, and maybe missing out on some important or interesting post... Are others in favour of doing this? Or not? Original Message From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 16:15:35 +1100 I might just point out some of the other WSG bits pieces that many people probably aren't aware of: - the resources section http://webstandardsgroup.org/resources/ (which I believe everyone on the list is able to add to) - the WSG CMS list (buggered if I can remember how you join... Pete?) Thanks Lindsay. It's only had 8 posts so far (4 from me). See http://www.mail-archive.com/cms%40webstandardsgroup.org/ To join, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with subscribe cms (no quotes) as the body (not subject). The [WSG] is added at the mail server so Taco's would be an addition to that which I can't see working (I'd forget every time). I'm happy to set up different lists if you like, but maintenance would be a bit weird. We get a couple of hundred bounces every day (and if you've mysteriously been transformed to digest mode it means that you were bouncing for an extended period and I changed your mode so I only had one bounce per day from you to deal with). So far we have: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (The primary one) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (optional) We could also do other variants: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] This would mean that people only interested in general standards discussion could just remain on the default list and those that wanted to also get (or give) CSS help could joint the CSS list as well. I would make the [EMAIL PROTECTED] mandatory (your login is based on this one) with the others as options. There should be no increase in traffic, just a split and a possibility of significantly less traffic for the person that doesn't do CSS coding but wants to keep abreast of the other discussions. It would mean that I would bulk subscribe everyone currently on wsg@ to each of the new lists (but not cms@) and then allow you to unsub each manually if you want to as I don't want to have to enter specifics for 330ish people. Is this worth pursuing? While we're at it... Please make sure you free email account doesn't go over quota. Please don't ever request read receipts (I get most of them rather than you). P * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * Regards, David McDonald Web Designer http://www.davidmcdonald.org * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
