Re: [wsjt-devel] Fox sends "DUPE" instead of "+rpt" in DX pedition mode

2022-11-09 Thread Tsutsumi Takehiko via wsjt-devel 
Hi Reino,

Thank you for your response. I am glad  to see your response is not matter of 
questions which I asked.

Yes, this comes from unavoidable and inherent FT8 down-link budget design i.e. 
50% success rate which DX-peditioners should more pay attention to. I was 
surprised to know recent peditioner intentionally limit their output power to 
40W QRP to control global-based uplink calls without using designated CQ 
message. Unfortunately, they do not upload their fox log to the clublog on 
time, they creates unnecessary QRMs by continuous (sometime more than hours) 
repeated calls from hounds. So, my intention is to provide a new tool to 
control these type of up-link congestion for FOX operator on the air.

By the way, I noticed that my intention can be accomplished by the transmission 
of dupe message by “RR73” without creating “DUPE” message. By this, hound can 
understand fox has already logged by previous QSO and can stop their further 
retransmission.

Regards,

take

de JA5AEA

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差出人: Reino Talarmo via wsjt-devel<mailto:wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net>
送信日時: 2022年11月9日 19:06
宛先: 'WSJT software development'<mailto:wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net>
CC: Reino Talarmo<mailto:reino.tala...@kolumbus.fi>
件名: Re: [wsjt-devel] Fox sends "DUPE" instead of "+rpt" in DX pedition mode

Hi Take san,

It's not you English, but a protocol challenge.

The reason for not receiving the RR73 from a fox depends on the S/N at the
hound station and the detection probability of various messages. The S/N
depends on the propagation, but also strongly on the number of carriers fox
is using. Quite often fox uses more carriers, when it responses to users
meaning less S/N per carrier. Another issue is decoding probability of the
message such as K1ABC RR73; W9XYZ -08 is a bit less than normal RR73 or
R+rpt messages to a single user, when the hound uses AP decoding.

Now your proposal is to change the +rpt to a Hound to DUPE in the case the
hound has started a new QSO attempt after some time, not because fox
receives repeated R+rpt from the Hound. At least I understood it that way.
So on the protocol point of view fox uses one timeslot less resources than
is normal QSO, if the Hound receives the DUPE message. BUT even that DUPE
message is a lost timeslot as the QSO is already in the log. The detection
probability of the DUPE message would be the same as for R+rpt or RR73
messages. So how many times the fox should repeat it to make the Hound
happy? On the fox point of view that Hound is not a problem as long as it
can decode other new stations.

There is another possibility for fox to send the RR73 using less carriers or
even a RR73 to that Hound without combining it with a report to some other
station (again a lost message option). That method could be more effective
due to better S/N and detection probability. I just doubt whether a DX
station would apply either it or your proposal as long as he is completing
new QSOs at "full" speed, hi!

73, Reino OH3mA




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Re: [wsjt-devel] Fox sends "DUPE" instead of "+rpt" in DX pedition mode

2022-11-09 Thread Reino Talarmo via wsjt-devel 
Hi Take san,

It's not you English, but a protocol challenge.

The reason for not receiving the RR73 from a fox depends on the S/N at the
hound station and the detection probability of various messages. The S/N
depends on the propagation, but also strongly on the number of carriers fox
is using. Quite often fox uses more carriers, when it responses to users
meaning less S/N per carrier. Another issue is decoding probability of the
message such as K1ABC RR73; W9XYZ -08 is a bit less than normal RR73 or
R+rpt messages to a single user, when the hound uses AP decoding. 

Now your proposal is to change the +rpt to a Hound to DUPE in the case the
hound has started a new QSO attempt after some time, not because fox
receives repeated R+rpt from the Hound. At least I understood it that way.
So on the protocol point of view fox uses one timeslot less resources than
is normal QSO, if the Hound receives the DUPE message. BUT even that DUPE
message is a lost timeslot as the QSO is already in the log. The detection
probability of the DUPE message would be the same as for R+rpt or RR73
messages. So how many times the fox should repeat it to make the Hound
happy? On the fox point of view that Hound is not a problem as long as it
can decode other new stations. 

There is another possibility for fox to send the RR73 using less carriers or
even a RR73 to that Hound without combining it with a report to some other
station (again a lost message option). That method could be more effective
due to better S/N and detection probability. I just doubt whether a DX
station would apply either it or your proposal as long as he is completing
new QSOs at "full" speed, hi!

73, Reino OH3mA




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Re: [wsjt-devel] Fox sends "DUPE" instead of "+rpt" in DX pedition mode

2022-11-08 Thread Tsutsumi Takehiko via wsjt-devel 
All,

I am afraid of current situation where there is no response to my proposal 
written below.

I guess it is caused by my poor description in English and poor sentence 
structure addressing the issues. Therefore, I am happy if somebody raise 
his/her questions for the purpose of clarification.

BTW, this proposal is quite different topic from “Fox Mode Indication to Hound 
Users on the Air” which I uploaded at the same time.

I am waiting the response soon.

Regards,

take

de JA5AEA

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差出人: Tsutsumi Takehiko
送信日時: 2022年11月8日 13:38
宛先: WSJT software development
件名: Fox sends "DUPE" instead of "+rpt" in DX pedition mode

Hi,

Concerning the following protocol item 13, I understand WSJT-X developers 
decided so respecting on traditional DX-pedition practice about logging 
behavior.

--Page 5 of FT8 
DX-pedition Mode User 
Guide--

13. When Fox receives your “R+rpt” message he responds with “RR73”. At this 
point he considers your QSO complete and logs it. When you receive “RR73” you 
should
log it, too !
14. If for some reason a Hound fails to copy an RR73 sent by Fox, that Hound 
will repeat his transmission of Tx 3 (“R+rpt”). Fox will respond to such “R+rpt”
messages by sending “RR73” up to three times.
--Page 5 of FT8 
DX-pedition Mode User 
Guide--

However, it is a fact that it creates following side-effects under real 
DX-pedition equipment and environment limitation which makes their signal weak 
and therefore the protocol item 14 becomes normal situation.


  1.  Creates uncertainty to Hound users whether “Fox log” was included their 
QSO without receiving “RR73” message.
  2.  Repeated Hound calls following protocol item 14 occupies Hound allocated 
spectrum and creates unnecessary QRMs.

To avoid the above side-effects, would you consider to add transmission of dupe 
message such as “DUPE” instead of “+rpt” message to these Hounds if Fox program 
detects repeated dupe calls after protocol item 14? It is also nice if Hound 
program detects “DUPE” message, it automatically stops further calls.

Regards,

take

de JA5AEA

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