Re: [Xastir] D700 Connection
On Wed, 9 Apr 2008, Keith Kaiser wrote: > This is a weird one guys. > > I did ls -lad /dev/lock the result is; > drwxr-xr-t 2 root wheel 68 Apr 9 21:25 /var/lock > > Which is a little different than yours, I have a - where you have an x in the > 6th position. What does that mean? Separate it out like this: d rwx r-x r-t The first means it's a directory. The other three groups are the read/write/execute permissions for each of three groups: Owner rwx Group r-x Other r-t (or r-x) Here's where it gets a bit strange: In the case of a directory the 'x' means you can change into the directory, it doesn't mean execute permission like it does on a file. Another weirdness: Other flags sometimes appear in the 'x' position, like 't', 'g', etc. The 't' is a "sticky" flag. On my system it appears as a 'T' if the 'x' flag is not set, and a 't' is the 'x' flag _is_ set. Hard to keep track of isn't it? You're probably good here with either a 't' or an 'x' in that last position for this case. -- Curt, WE7U. archer at eskimo dot com http://www.eskimo.com/~archer Lotto: A tax on people who are bad at math. - unknown Windows: Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates. - WE7U. The world DOES revolve around me: I picked the coordinate system!" ___ Xastir mailing list Xastir@xastir.org http://lists.xastir.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/xastir
Re: [Xastir] D700 Connection
This is a weird one guys. I did ls -lad /dev/lock the result is; drwxr-xr-t 2 root wheel 68 Apr 9 21:25 /var/lock Which is a little different than yours, I have a - where you have an x in the 6th position. What does that mean? P.S. I've been doing sudo thanks. On Apr 9, 2008, at 10:08 PM, Jason KG4WSV wrote: On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 10:00 PM, Keith Kaiser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: t I just noticed, its permissions are set to -rw-r--r--@ 1 root wheel 1439 Apr 9 21:08 tnc- startup.d700 don't they have to be executable? no, but they have to be writable. i don't have a 232/usb device to check, but i think the permissions should be 666 (rw-rw-rw-). But then again, that setuid xastir executable should take care of that. my /var/lock looks like yours, so i think that's OK: $ ls -lad /var/lock drwxrwxr-x 2 root uucp 68 Mar 30 10:49 /var/lock i thought I had done the setuid thing on /var/lock as well, but ls says otherwise, and my xastir works just fine. the xastir isn't suid root, either, so at a glance mine shouldn't work, but does. in case you haven't hit this, on the mac you'll probably want to "sudo cmd" for each of the commands Curt mentioned, instead of doing an su first. -Jason kg4wsv ___ Xastir mailing list Xastir@xastir.org http://lists.xastir.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/xastir
Re: [Xastir] D700 Connection
On Wed, 9 Apr 2008, Jason KG4WSV wrote: > On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 10:00 PM, Keith Kaiser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > t I just noticed, its permissions > > are set to -rw-r--r--@ 1 root wheel 1439 Apr 9 21:08 tnc-startup.d700 > > don't they have to be executable? > > no, but they have to be writable. i don't have a 232/usb device to > check, but i think the permissions should be 666 (rw-rw-rw-). But > then again, that setuid xastir executable should take care of that. He's talking about the tnc-startup file above, not the serial port... > in case you haven't hit this, on the mac you'll probably want to "sudo > cmd" for each of the commands Curt mentioned, instead of doing an su > first. I never know if people have /etc/sudoers set up properly and know how to use sudo, so often I quote the brute-force method. Since I caught the sudo bug myself I always use it! -- Curt, WE7U. archer at eskimo dot com http://www.eskimo.com/~archer Lotto: A tax on people who are bad at math. - unknown Windows: Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates. - WE7U. The world DOES revolve around me: I picked the coordinate system!" ___ Xastir mailing list Xastir@xastir.org http://lists.xastir.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/xastir
Re: [Xastir] D700 Connection
On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 10:00 PM, Keith Kaiser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > t I just noticed, its permissions > are set to -rw-r--r--@ 1 root wheel 1439 Apr 9 21:08 tnc-startup.d700 > don't they have to be executable? no, but they have to be writable. i don't have a 232/usb device to check, but i think the permissions should be 666 (rw-rw-rw-). But then again, that setuid xastir executable should take care of that. my /var/lock looks like yours, so i think that's OK: $ ls -lad /var/lock drwxrwxr-x 2 root uucp 68 Mar 30 10:49 /var/lock i thought I had done the setuid thing on /var/lock as well, but ls says otherwise, and my xastir works just fine. the xastir isn't suid root, either, so at a glance mine shouldn't work, but does. in case you haven't hit this, on the mac you'll probably want to "sudo cmd" for each of the commands Curt mentioned, instead of doing an su first. -Jason kg4wsv ___ Xastir mailing list Xastir@xastir.org http://lists.xastir.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/xastir
Re: [Xastir] D700 Connection
On Wed, 9 Apr 2008, Keith Kaiser wrote: > This is the device name, cut out of the terminal window; cu.USA19H1a2P1.1 > which is what I'm using. This goes back to my original thought that it wasn't > seeing the tnc-startup.d700 script. Which is located in; > /usr/local/share/xastir/tnc-startup.d700 but I just noticed, its permissions > are set to -rw-r--r--@ 1 root wheel 1439 Apr 9 21:08 tnc-startup.d700 > don't they have to be executable? Nope. Just readable by any user, which they are. -- Curt, WE7U. archer at eskimo dot com http://www.eskimo.com/~archer Lotto: A tax on people who are bad at math. - unknown Windows: Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates. - WE7U. The world DOES revolve around me: I picked the coordinate system!" ___ Xastir mailing list Xastir@xastir.org http://lists.xastir.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/xastir
Re: [Xastir] D700 Connection
This is the device name, cut out of the terminal window; cu.USA19H1a2P1.1 which is what I'm using. This goes back to my original thought that it wasn't seeing the tnc-startup.d700 script. Which is located in; /usr/local/share/xastir/tnc-startup.d700 but I just noticed, its permissions are set to -rw-r--r--@ 1 root wheel 1439 Apr 9 21:08 tnc-startup.d700 don't they have to be executable? On Apr 9, 2008, at 9:52 PM, Curt, WE7U wrote: On Wed, 9 Apr 2008, Keith Kaiser wrote: No, the lock file is empty. H! Your on to something now, but what? If that file is not created, that means that Xastir is not opening the device. Whether it's a permission problem or the USB device has switched names on you, I cannot say. Look at the same files you originally checked to determine the name of the device. Check whether it's changed on you. Are you getting any error messages to the Xterm you start Xastir on? -- Curt, WE7U. archer at eskimo dot com http://www.eskimo.com/~archer Lotto: A tax on people who are bad at math. - unknown Windows: Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates. - WE7U. The world DOES revolve around me: I picked the coordinate system!" ___ Xastir mailing list Xastir@xastir.org http://lists.xastir.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/xastir
Re: [Xastir] D700 Connection
On Wed, 9 Apr 2008, Keith Kaiser wrote: > No, the lock file is empty. > > H! Your on to something now, but what? If that file is not created, that means that Xastir is not opening the device. Whether it's a permission problem or the USB device has switched names on you, I cannot say. Look at the same files you originally checked to determine the name of the device. Check whether it's changed on you. Are you getting any error messages to the Xterm you start Xastir on? -- Curt, WE7U. archer at eskimo dot com http://www.eskimo.com/~archer Lotto: A tax on people who are bad at math. - unknown Windows: Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates. - WE7U. The world DOES revolve around me: I picked the coordinate system!" ___ Xastir mailing list Xastir@xastir.org http://lists.xastir.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/xastir
Re: [Xastir] D700 Connection
No, the lock file is empty. H! Your on to something now, but what? On Apr 9, 2008, at 9:40 PM, Curt, WE7U wrote: On Wed, 9 Apr 2008, Keith Kaiser wrote: Done drwxr-xr-t 2 root wheel 68 Apr 9 21:25 lock Still a no-go. Are you getting a file created there that looks something like this? -rw-r--r-- 1 root users 23 2008-04-05 18:04 LCK..ttyUSB0 The file above is what I have on my system. The contents of the file are the process ID of the main Xastir process. -- Curt, WE7U. archer at eskimo dot com http://www.eskimo.com/~archer Lotto: A tax on people who are bad at math. - unknown Windows: Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates. - WE7U. The world DOES revolve around me: I picked the coordinate system!" ___ Xastir mailing list Xastir@xastir.org http://lists.xastir.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/xastir
Re: [Xastir] D700 Connection
On Wed, 9 Apr 2008, Keith Kaiser wrote: > Done > > drwxr-xr-t 2 root wheel 68 Apr 9 21:25 lock > > Still a no-go. Are you getting a file created there that looks something like this? -rw-r--r-- 1 root users 23 2008-04-05 18:04 LCK..ttyUSB0 The file above is what I have on my system. The contents of the file are the process ID of the main Xastir process. -- Curt, WE7U. archer at eskimo dot com http://www.eskimo.com/~archer Lotto: A tax on people who are bad at math. - unknown Windows: Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates. - WE7U. The world DOES revolve around me: I picked the coordinate system!" ___ Xastir mailing list Xastir@xastir.org http://lists.xastir.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/xastir
Re: [Xastir] D700 Connection
Done drwxr-xr-t 2 root wheel 68 Apr 9 21:25 lock Still a no-go. On Apr 9, 2008, at 9:24 PM, Curt, WE7U wrote: On Wed, 9 Apr 2008, Keith Kaiser wrote: I did the chmod, I even did a ./configure then a make and a sudo make install then the chmod but it still didn't work. There is no directory under var called lock, should I create an empty one? Yea, give that a shot. Create it as root: cd /var su mkdir lock chmod 1775 lock exit # (from root) The reason for the chmod command is that the sticky bit should be set. At least that's how it is on my Linux box here: drwxrwxr-t 5 root uucp 4096 2008-04-09 16:06 lock -- Curt, WE7U. archer at eskimo dot com http://www.eskimo.com/~archer Lotto: A tax on people who are bad at math. - unknown Windows: Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates. - WE7U. The world DOES revolve around me: I picked the coordinate system!" ___ Xastir mailing list Xastir@xastir.org http://lists.xastir.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/xastir
Re: [Xastir] D700 Connection
On Wed, 9 Apr 2008, Keith Kaiser wrote: > I did the chmod, I even did a ./configure then a make and a sudo make install > then the chmod but it still didn't work. There is no directory under var > called lock, should I create an empty one? Yea, give that a shot. Create it as root: cd /var su mkdir lock chmod 1775 lock exit # (from root) The reason for the chmod command is that the sticky bit should be set. At least that's how it is on my Linux box here: drwxrwxr-t 5 root uucp 4096 2008-04-09 16:06 lock -- Curt, WE7U. archer at eskimo dot com http://www.eskimo.com/~archer Lotto: A tax on people who are bad at math. - unknown Windows: Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates. - WE7U. The world DOES revolve around me: I picked the coordinate system!" ___ Xastir mailing list Xastir@xastir.org http://lists.xastir.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/xastir
Re: [Xastir] D700 Connection
I did the chmod, I even did a ./configure then a make and a sudo make install then the chmod but it still didn't work. There is no directory under var called lock, should I create an empty one? H, we need another idea. On Apr 9, 2008, at 7:21 PM, Jason KG4WSV wrote: On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 6:16 PM, Curt, WE7U <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Wed, 9 Apr 2008, Keith Kaiser wrote: I connect my laptop (Mac OS X) running Xastir to my D700 using a Keyspan serial/USB adapter (cu.USA19H1a2P1.1). I can see the adapter in terminal when I do ls /dev so I know I have the correct id for it. But now when I select that connection in the interface control nothing happens, it doesn't even blink. If all that seems unlikely to be the problem, does someone else have an idea what could be causing it? It's likely that Xastir isn't able to open it. Could be permissions, could be a different interface being used now. hmm, i've never seen permissions problems working with a variety of mac os x 232/usb drivers, but i don't update my drivers too often, either. i do vaguely remember a lock directory that xastir wanted to use didn't exist, or had the wrong permissions on it. Does /var/lock exist on your machine? Curt's fix for making xastir setuid root will solve permissions problems on that directory, but won't help if it doesn't exist. Does the console where you kicked off xastir display any messages, helpful or otherwise? -Jason kg4wsv ___ Xastir mailing list Xastir@xastir.org http://lists.xastir.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/xastir
Re: [Xastir] Debian Etch - no maps
On Wed, 9 Apr 2008, Mike Long (N3QD) wrote: > I just installed Debian Etch and Xastir 1.9.2 using apt-get. Xastir > works fine with downloaded maps, but none of the internet maps work. > I've chacked ~.xastir/tmp folder and there are no maps there. apt-get > tells me ImageMagic, and Curl are installed properly. I checked Curl by > "Curling" Google.com, and it seems to be working. Any ideas? That last checks the stand-alone "curl", but doesn't check whether Xastir is compiled with and using libcurl. Does Xastir's Help->About say "libcurl" on the "Libraries used:" line? If not, did you install "libcurl-devel" or similar package before you compiled Xastir, or just "libcurl". Xastir will use "wget" to fetch maps if libcurl/libcurl-devel are not present when you configure/compile Xastir. -- Curt, WE7U. archer at eskimo dot com http://www.eskimo.com/~archer Lotto: A tax on people who are bad at math. - unknown Windows: Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates. - WE7U. The world DOES revolve around me: I picked the coordinate system!" ___ Xastir mailing list Xastir@xastir.org http://lists.xastir.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/xastir
Re: [Xastir] D700 Connection
On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 6:16 PM, Curt, WE7U <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wed, 9 Apr 2008, Keith Kaiser wrote: > > > I connect my laptop (Mac OS X) running Xastir to my D700 using a Keyspan > > serial/USB adapter (cu.USA19H1a2P1.1). I can see the adapter in terminal > when > > I do ls /dev so I know I have the correct id for it. But now when I select > > that connection in the interface control nothing happens, it doesn't even > > blink. > > > > If all that seems unlikely to be the problem, does someone else have an idea > > what could be causing it? > > It's likely that Xastir isn't able to open it. Could be > permissions, could be a different interface being used now. hmm, i've never seen permissions problems working with a variety of mac os x 232/usb drivers, but i don't update my drivers too often, either. i do vaguely remember a lock directory that xastir wanted to use didn't exist, or had the wrong permissions on it. Does /var/lock exist on your machine? Curt's fix for making xastir setuid root will solve permissions problems on that directory, but won't help if it doesn't exist. Does the console where you kicked off xastir display any messages, helpful or otherwise? -Jason kg4wsv ___ Xastir mailing list Xastir@xastir.org http://lists.xastir.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/xastir
[Xastir] Debian Etch - no maps
Hi, I just installed Debian Etch and Xastir 1.9.2 using apt-get. Xastir works fine with downloaded maps, but none of the internet maps work. I've chacked ~.xastir/tmp folder and there are no maps there. apt-get tells me ImageMagic, and Curl are installed properly. I checked Curl by "Curling" Google.com, and it seems to be working. Any ideas? Thanks, Mike (N3QD) ___ Xastir mailing list Xastir@xastir.org http://lists.xastir.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/xastir
Re: [Xastir] D700 Connection
On Wed, 9 Apr 2008, Keith Kaiser wrote: > I connect my laptop (Mac OS X) running Xastir to my D700 using a Keyspan > serial/USB adapter (cu.USA19H1a2P1.1). I can see the adapter in terminal when > I do ls /dev so I know I have the correct id for it. But now when I select > that connection in the interface control nothing happens, it doesn't even > blink. > If all that seems unlikely to be the problem, does someone else have an idea > what could be causing it? It's likely that Xastir isn't able to open it. Could be permissions, could be a different interface being used now. Try as root: chmod 4755 /usr/local/bin/xastir Then exit from the root user and run Xastir again. The above command should allow Xastir to become root when it needs to, which it will try when it opens a serial port. If that gets the port working then just remember to do that each time after you do a fresh "make install" of Xastir. -- Curt, WE7U. archer at eskimo dot com http://www.eskimo.com/~archer Lotto: A tax on people who are bad at math. - unknown Windows: Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates. - WE7U. The world DOES revolve around me: I picked the coordinate system!" ___ Xastir mailing list Xastir@xastir.org http://lists.xastir.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/xastir
[Xastir] D700 Connection
A couple of weeks ago I asked this question and thanks to all the experts out there I got over the problem, but now I have it again. I connect my laptop (Mac OS X) running Xastir to my D700 using a Keyspan serial/USB adapter (cu.USA19H1a2P1.1). I can see the adapter in terminal when I do ls /dev so I know I have the correct id for it. But now when I select that connection in the interface control nothing happens, it doesn't even blink. It's almost like the startup file is not being seen, I use tnc-startup.d700 and tnc-stop.d700 to close it down. How can I be sure its seeing that file to start up? Is there a level of logging I can turn on or some other way to verify its pointing to the correct file? If all that seems unlikely to be the problem, does someone else have an idea what could be causing it? Thanks in advance guys. 73's ___ Xastir mailing list Xastir@xastir.org http://lists.xastir.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/xastir
Re: [Xastir] A rant on the shapefiles...
On Wed, 2008-04-09 at 08:30 -0700, Curt, WE7U wrote: > On Wed, 9 Apr 2008, Richard Polivka, N6NKO wrote: > > > I am wondering who participated in getting these maps made? Was it state, > > county, feds? > > Blame the census takers. Feds. Federalies. Men in black? > > For the purpose of taking the every-10-year federal census they've > kept track of roads. Unfortunately the census-takers haven't had > any cartography training (hey, it's really not their job, right?). > The maps were not intended to be used for the purposes people put > them to. That philosophy is changing a bit lately and they're > trying to do a better job on the data. I suspect Gerry or Tom can > fill us in on the details, but that's my vague recollection. Let's not forget the fact that "cartographic data" (ie. street data) was never a goal of the Census. It simply fell out of the LineFile format due to their need to track data at the block and tract levels. It was literally an afterthought. Of course, since then, geographers have been using it to extract roads and other features and have increasingly put pressure on the Census to make this a real part of the Census and not a byproduct. As a result, the Census began releasing periodic updates every few years with cartographic updates. It wasn't great, but it was better than nothing. They are finally getting serious about it and storing the geographic referenced data is well known formats. Hopefully, they'll start working on the accuracy of that data... -- 73, de Brad KB8UYR/6 ___ Xastir mailing list Xastir@xastir.org http://lists.xastir.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/xastir
Re: [Xastir] A rant on the shapefiles...
Curt did such a nice job of summarizing what I could have said in 10k words gerry Curt, WE7U wrote: On Wed, 9 Apr 2008, Richard Polivka, N6NKO wrote: I am wondering who participated in getting these maps made? Was it state, county, feds? Blame the census takers. Feds. Federalies. Men in black? For the purpose of taking the every-10-year federal census they've kept track of roads. Unfortunately the census-takers haven't had any cartography training (hey, it's really not their job, right?). The maps were not intended to be used for the purposes people put them to. That philosophy is changing a bit lately and they're trying to do a better job on the data. I suspect Gerry or Tom can fill us in on the details, but that's my vague recollection. Even with that less than stellar cartography start, they're awfully nice road maps, and free. Hard to beat that in most other countries! Many of the commercial mapping programs start with Tiger data as their base and add to/correct it. -- Gerry Creager -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Texas Mesonet -- AATLT, Texas A&M University Cell: 979.229.5301 Office: 979.862.3982 FAX: 979.862.3983 Office: 1700 Research Parkway Ste 160, TAMU, College Station, TX 77843 ___ Xastir mailing list Xastir@xastir.org http://lists.xastir.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/xastir
Re: [Xastir] A rant on the shapefiles...
I have to agree that they are a start and people use them for more than what the initial intent was. That is why I have taken to editing what I have so the maps I have will be more useful. I am finding that even the maps issued by the cities and county here are inaccurate as well, missing important info such as local parks, creeks, etc. Now to go and walk around a bit - can't sit too long. Plus the dog is dreaming. 73 from 807, Richard, N6NKO Curt, WE7U wrote: On Wed, 9 Apr 2008, Richard Polivka, N6NKO wrote: I am wondering who participated in getting these maps made? Was it state, county, feds? Blame the census takers. Feds. Federalies. Men in black? For the purpose of taking the every-10-year federal census they've kept track of roads. Unfortunately the census-takers haven't had any cartography training (hey, it's really not their job, right?). The maps were not intended to be used for the purposes people put them to. That philosophy is changing a bit lately and they're trying to do a better job on the data. I suspect Gerry or Tom can fill us in on the details, but that's my vague recollection. Even with that less than stellar cartography start, they're awfully nice road maps, and free. Hard to beat that in most other countries! Many of the commercial mapping programs start with Tiger data as their base and add to/correct it. ___ Xastir mailing list Xastir@xastir.org http://lists.xastir.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/xastir
Re: [Xastir] A rant on the shapefiles...
On Wed, 9 Apr 2008, Richard Polivka, N6NKO wrote: > I am wondering who participated in getting these maps made? Was it state, > county, feds? Blame the census takers. Feds. Federalies. Men in black? For the purpose of taking the every-10-year federal census they've kept track of roads. Unfortunately the census-takers haven't had any cartography training (hey, it's really not their job, right?). The maps were not intended to be used for the purposes people put them to. That philosophy is changing a bit lately and they're trying to do a better job on the data. I suspect Gerry or Tom can fill us in on the details, but that's my vague recollection. Even with that less than stellar cartography start, they're awfully nice road maps, and free. Hard to beat that in most other countries! Many of the commercial mapping programs start with Tiger data as their base and add to/correct it. -- Curt, WE7U. archer at eskimo dot com http://www.eskimo.com/~archer Lotto: A tax on people who are bad at math. - unknown Windows: Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates. - WE7U. The world DOES revolve around me: I picked the coordinate system!" ___ Xastir mailing list Xastir@xastir.org http://lists.xastir.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/xastir
[Xastir] A rant on the shapefiles...
I have to thank the authors/contributors to Quantum GIS. This program is proving to be quite useful in editing the TIGER 2007 FE shapefiles. There is s much missing from Milwaukee county, it is unbelievable. I am just using it on my laptop but I can see where BigBox with its three eyes can be an asset to this. I am wondering who participated in getting these maps made? Was it state, county, feds? It really does not matter, I am laid up with a flu bug so I have been playing to keep from going wacky. I am not one who likes being ill but the legs just don't want to cooperate too long walking. Mr. Creager - I realize that you have offered to be a repository of the shapefiles. How about making a subdirectory "contributed" where we, as a group, can put in updated shapefiles as they are cleaned up, augmented, whatever? The feds have supplied the basics, now we have an opportunity to make the products USEFUL. 73 from 807, Richard, N6NKO P.S.: Dreaming of qty 4 of 21" 1280x1024 flatpanel monitors on BigBox ___ Xastir mailing list Xastir@xastir.org http://lists.xastir.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/xastir
[Xastir] Progress with 2007 FE shapefiles
All, I have managed to get this mapset quite usable. To wit, I will be posting the .dbfawk's to the group presently. I just have to clean up the lines to make them a bit more presentable. One drawback is how inconsistent the data is from one county to another. Some counties have bounteous information and others in the same state are barren yet the features exist. I will be sending the complete set of maps to Gerry Creager for him to install on his servers for distribution. 73 from 807, Richard, N6NKO ___ Xastir mailing list Xastir@xastir.org http://lists.xastir.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/xastir
