Re: [Xastir] Terraserver problems with map registration

[Richard Polivka, N6NKO]

Yup, I have cycles to burn.

BigBox is running three monitors across at 1280x1024 each (effective 
3840x1024) as one desktop.


I do have another free video port to add another monitor

73 from 807,

Richard, N6NKO


Bob Donnell wrote:

I was discussing this with Curt on IM, and had the thought that once the
absolute limits are known, that the code performing terraserver requests
should evaluate the window size xastir's running in, then form a sub-scale
request appropriately and then upscale the returned image after the fact
Most of us with high resolution displays wouldn't often notice if the image
request was scaled to 50% then the returned image was scaled to 200%.  If
the window is more than 3 times the limit, do it to 1/3 and 3x scaling, etc.
So the idea is to downscale the requests to something terraserver will
reliably return all of, and then upscale it on the local PC.  I guess the
main idea is that by scaling our requests, we control how much complexity is
involved in rescaling the returned image.  So integer amounts and even
percentages, like 40%, 50%, 75%, 80%, etc. reduces a lot of the scaling
tasks to simple integer math.

Besides, anyone running that big a screen must have cycles to burn 

It also occurs to me that this might be a file size limit, vs. a pixel count
limit, so the returned image size may be related to that - though from their
end, it'd be a lot easier to code a pixel count limit.  If file size was the
limit, then the file size could vary due to compression factors and how much
detail is present.

73, Bob, KD7NM

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Tom Russo
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 10:36 AM
To: Curt, WE7U
Cc: Xastir@xastir.org
Subject: Re: [Xastir] Terraserver problems with map registration

On Wed, Nov 28, 2007 at 10:31:57AM -0800, we recorded a bogon-computron
collision of the <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> flavor, containing:
  

On Wed, 28 Nov 2007, Curt, WE7U wrote:



On Wed, 28 Nov 2007, Curt, WE7U wrote:

  
At 1410x950 it looks ok.  If I go much bigger in either direction 
the registration gets knocked out of whack in the E/W direction.

Looks like 1410x992 is the limit.  Go over that by one pixel in 
either direction and it's off.
  
Hmmm.  Can go up to 1408x1109 and it's fine too.  Must be larger 
vertically before it can go larger horizontally?



The issue is entirely that the file requested is too large for terraserver
to agree to serve.  It is likely not a fixed pixel limit, since jpg
compression probably allows some pizel-wise larger images to be smaller
byte-wise than others.

  

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Re: [Xastir] Terraserver problems with map registration

[Chip Griffin]

On Nov 28, 2007, at 13:39, Jason Winningham wrote:


On Nov 28, 2007, at 12:29 PM, Tom Russo wrote:


but if there were a way to search the archives for this list


plug

site:lists.xastir.org/pipermail/xastir searchphrase

into google.


Thanks. This is a most excellent tip!!


73,
--de Chip (N1MIE) FN41bn

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Re: [Xastir] Terraserver problems with map registration

[Tom Russo]

On Wed, Nov 28, 2007 at 11:01:04AM -0800, we recorded a bogon-computron 
collision of the <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> flavor, containing:
> It also occurs to me that this might be a file size limit, vs. a pixel count
> limit, so the returned image size may be related to that - though from their
> end, it'd be a lot easier to code a pixel count limit.  If file size was the
> limit, then the file size could vary due to compression factors and how much
> detail is present.

I'm pretty sure that it's a file size limit, not a pixel count limit.  At 
one point when I was exploring this a few years ago, I found that the problem
went away when I was viewing certain areas even though I hadn't changed
my window size or zoom level --- almost certainly because at those areas the 
compression led to smaller files.

The other approach would be to fetch the terraserver-usa images in tiles instead
of as one monolithic image.  That's how teraserver-usa builds its large
images, and is what is happening behind the scenes when we request a large
area.  Also, if we fetch the worldfile and use it properly instead of just
keying off the request data and the file size, we would be assured that 
when we plop a tile down we always plop it where it's supposed to go.

Furthermore, if we did tile-based fetches we could *cache* the tiles and 
speed up zooms and pans.  Right now, if you change the view at all the cached
full image is useless and another one is fetched.  If we used tiles instead,
and checked the cache before downloading, then we'd only have to fetch new
tiles for the areas that were exposed.

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
> Of Tom Russo
> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 10:36 AM
> To: Curt, WE7U
> Cc: Xastir@xastir.org
> Subject: Re: [Xastir] Terraserver problems with map registration
> 
> On Wed, Nov 28, 2007 at 10:31:57AM -0800, we recorded a bogon-computron
> collision of the <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> flavor, containing:
> > On Wed, 28 Nov 2007, Curt, WE7U wrote:
> > 
> > > On Wed, 28 Nov 2007, Curt, WE7U wrote:
> > >
> > > > At 1410x950 it looks ok.  If I go much bigger in either direction 
> > > > the registration gets knocked out of whack in the E/W direction.
> > >
> > > Looks like 1410x992 is the limit.  Go over that by one pixel in 
> > > either direction and it's off.
> > 
> > Hmmm.  Can go up to 1408x1109 and it's fine too.  Must be larger 
> > vertically before it can go larger horizontally?
> 
> The issue is entirely that the file requested is too large for terraserver
> to agree to serve.  It is likely not a fixed pixel limit, since jpg
> compression probably allows some pizel-wise larger images to be smaller
> byte-wise than others.

-- 
Tom RussoKM5VY   SAR502   DM64ux  http://www.swcp.com/~russo/
Tijeras, NM  QRPL#1592 K2#398  SOC#236 AHTB#1 http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?DDTNM
"And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is
 one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh,
 oooh, the sky is the limit!"  --- The Tick
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RE: [Xastir] Terraserver problems with map registration

[Bob Donnell]

I was discussing this with Curt on IM, and had the thought that once the
absolute limits are known, that the code performing terraserver requests
should evaluate the window size xastir's running in, then form a sub-scale
request appropriately and then upscale the returned image after the fact
Most of us with high resolution displays wouldn't often notice if the image
request was scaled to 50% then the returned image was scaled to 200%.  If
the window is more than 3 times the limit, do it to 1/3 and 3x scaling, etc.
So the idea is to downscale the requests to something terraserver will
reliably return all of, and then upscale it on the local PC.  I guess the
main idea is that by scaling our requests, we control how much complexity is
involved in rescaling the returned image.  So integer amounts and even
percentages, like 40%, 50%, 75%, 80%, etc. reduces a lot of the scaling
tasks to simple integer math.

Besides, anyone running that big a screen must have cycles to burn 

It also occurs to me that this might be a file size limit, vs. a pixel count
limit, so the returned image size may be related to that - though from their
end, it'd be a lot easier to code a pixel count limit.  If file size was the
limit, then the file size could vary due to compression factors and how much
detail is present.

73, Bob, KD7NM

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Tom Russo
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 10:36 AM
To: Curt, WE7U
Cc: Xastir@xastir.org
Subject: Re: [Xastir] Terraserver problems with map registration

On Wed, Nov 28, 2007 at 10:31:57AM -0800, we recorded a bogon-computron
collision of the <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> flavor, containing:
> On Wed, 28 Nov 2007, Curt, WE7U wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, 28 Nov 2007, Curt, WE7U wrote:
> >
> > > At 1410x950 it looks ok.  If I go much bigger in either direction 
> > > the registration gets knocked out of whack in the E/W direction.
> >
> > Looks like 1410x992 is the limit.  Go over that by one pixel in 
> > either direction and it's off.
> 
> Hmmm.  Can go up to 1408x1109 and it's fine too.  Must be larger 
> vertically before it can go larger horizontally?

The issue is entirely that the file requested is too large for terraserver
to agree to serve.  It is likely not a fixed pixel limit, since jpg
compression probably allows some pizel-wise larger images to be smaller
byte-wise than others.

-- 
Tom RussoKM5VY   SAR502   DM64ux  http://www.swcp.com/~russo/
Tijeras, NM  QRPL#1592 K2#398  SOC#236 AHTB#1
http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?DDTNM "And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick
pony anyway? I mean all you get is  one trick, rational thinking, but when
you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh,  oooh, the sky is the limit!"  --- The
Tick ___
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Re: [Xastir] Terraserver problems with map registration

[Tom Russo]

On Wed, Nov 28, 2007 at 10:31:57AM -0800, we recorded a bogon-computron 
collision of the <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> flavor, containing:
> On Wed, 28 Nov 2007, Curt, WE7U wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, 28 Nov 2007, Curt, WE7U wrote:
> >
> > > At 1410x950 it looks ok.  If I go much bigger in either direction
> > > the registration gets knocked out of whack in the E/W direction.
> >
> > Looks like 1410x992 is the limit.  Go over that by one pixel in
> > either direction and it's off.
> 
> Hmmm.  Can go up to 1408x1109 and it's fine too.  Must be larger
> vertically before it can go larger horizontally?

The issue is entirely that the file requested is too large for terraserver
to agree to serve.  It is likely not a fixed pixel limit, since jpg compression
probably allows some pizel-wise larger images to be smaller byte-wise than
others.

-- 
Tom RussoKM5VY   SAR502   DM64ux  http://www.swcp.com/~russo/
Tijeras, NM  QRPL#1592 K2#398  SOC#236 AHTB#1 http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?DDTNM
"And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is
 one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh,
 oooh, the sky is the limit!"  --- The Tick
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Re: [Xastir] Terraserver problems with map registration

[Tom Russo]

On Wed, Nov 28, 2007 at 12:39:13PM -0600, we recorded a bogon-computron 
collision of the <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> flavor, containing:
> 
> On Nov 28, 2007, at 12:29 PM, Tom Russo wrote:
> 
>> but if there were a way to search the archives for this list
> 
> plug
> 
> site:lists.xastir.org/pipermail/xastir searchphrase
> 
> into google.

Would be great if the list archives didn't have a gap of over a year covering
exactly the period in question. :(

-- 
Tom RussoKM5VY   SAR502   DM64ux  http://www.swcp.com/~russo/
Tijeras, NM  QRPL#1592 K2#398  SOC#236 AHTB#1 http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?DDTNM
"And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is
 one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh,
 oooh, the sky is the limit!"  --- The Tick
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Re: [Xastir] Terraserver problems with map registration

[Curt, WE7U]

On Wed, 28 Nov 2007, Tom Russo wrote:

> The archives are missing all records from June 2005 to August 2006.  As I
> recall there was a very messy period there where the list was misbehaving.

Which is why I keep my _own_ archives on my hard disk at home...
:-(

Too bad about the archives, lots of useful info there.

--
Curt, WE7U:  XASTIR: 
  "Lotto:  A tax on people who are bad at math." -- unknown
"Windows:  Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates." -- WE7U
The world DOES revolve around me:  I picked the coordinate system!
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Re: [Xastir] Terraserver problems with map registration

[Jason Winningham]

On Nov 28, 2007, at 12:29 PM, Tom Russo wrote:


but if there were a way to search the archives for this list


plug

site:lists.xastir.org/pipermail/xastir searchphrase

into google.

-Jason
kg4wsv


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Re: [Xastir] Terraserver problems with map registration

[Tom Russo]

On Wed, Nov 28, 2007 at 11:29:51AM -0700, we recorded a bogon-computron 
collision of the <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> flavor, containing:
> On Wed, Nov 28, 2007 at 09:43:51AM -0800, we recorded a bogon-computron 
> collision of the <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> flavor, containing:
> > On Wed, 28 Nov 2007, Curt, WE7U wrote:
> > 
> > > Yes.  I recently went to 1600x1200 for X11 at home and at work.
> > > The Xastir window size is a large portion of that on one of my
> > > virtual screens.
> > 
> > At 1410x950 it looks ok.  If I go much bigger in either direction
> > the registration gets knocked out of whack in the E/W direction.
> > 
> > Known problem?  I don't recall seeing it before, but I haven't gone
> > to this resolution much before.  I've been at 1280x1024 mostly
> > before this.
> 
> Not exactly a "known problem" but if there were a way to search the archives
> for this list you would probably see a few posts from me on the subject.
> Not exactly sure what year that was, it was in the last two for sure coz
> that's when I first got my big monitor.

Unfortunately, it appears that there is a large gap in the list archives
from right around the time that I got this monitor --- that was shortly after
I moved to my current department at work, which was in October of 2005.

The archives are missing all records from June 2005 to August 2006.  As I 
recall there was a very messy period there where the list was misbehaving.

-- 
Tom RussoKM5VY   SAR502   DM64ux  http://www.swcp.com/~russo/
Tijeras, NM  QRPL#1592 K2#398  SOC#236 AHTB#1 http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?DDTNM
"And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is
 one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh,
 oooh, the sky is the limit!"  --- The Tick
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Re: [Xastir] Terraserver problems with map registration

[Tom Russo]

On Wed, Nov 28, 2007 at 09:43:51AM -0800, we recorded a bogon-computron 
collision of the <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> flavor, containing:
> On Wed, 28 Nov 2007, Curt, WE7U wrote:
> 
> > Yes.  I recently went to 1600x1200 for X11 at home and at work.
> > The Xastir window size is a large portion of that on one of my
> > virtual screens.
> 
> At 1410x950 it looks ok.  If I go much bigger in either direction
> the registration gets knocked out of whack in the E/W direction.
> 
> Known problem?  I don't recall seeing it before, but I haven't gone
> to this resolution much before.  I've been at 1280x1024 mostly
> before this.

Not exactly a "known problem" but if there were a way to search the archives
for this list you would probably see a few posts from me on the subject.
Not exactly sure what year that was, it was in the last two for sure coz
that's when I first got my big monitor.

-- 
Tom RussoKM5VY   SAR502   DM64ux  http://www.swcp.com/~russo/
Tijeras, NM  QRPL#1592 K2#398  SOC#236 AHTB#1 http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?DDTNM
"And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is
 one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh,
 oooh, the sky is the limit!"  --- The Tick
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Re: [Xastir] Terraserver problems with map registration

[Tom Russo]

On Wed, Nov 28, 2007 at 09:19:18AM -0800, we recorded a bogon-computron 
collision of the <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> flavor, containing:
> On Wed, 28 Nov 2007, Tom Russo wrote:
> 
> > Nope, not seeing that.  My current display is zoom 131 and looks fine.
> >  
> > Looks like it always has, everything lines up fine.
> >
> > Just curious:  did you by any chance change your window size anytime 
> > recently?
> > What's your window dimension?
> 
> Yes.  I recently went to 1600x1200 for X11 at home and at work.
> The Xastir window size is a large portion of that on one of my
> virtual screens.

Nothin' but net...  That's the reason for what you're seeing.

Terraserver is puking on the request for such a large image, and instead of
refusing to return it, returning only a piece of it.  Whereupon Xastir 
assumes it got everything it asked for and stretches the image received to fit
the region it is presumed to cover, making a horrific error.  The only reason 
it is working at low zooms is that the images are small enough for terraserver 
to honor the request.

I saw the same thing a year or so ago when I got a fancydoodle new monitor
(HP 2335) that could display 1920x1200 and tried to use xastir at full screen.
Ever since then I have had to stick to below 1280x1280 to keep it right.

Once upon a time I thought about making xastir download the worldfile 
associated with the image it requests, which could fix the problem if done 
right (because it would have the proper georeferencing information for the 
image actually downloaded rather than making assumptions that the image 
received was actually the image requested), but never got anywhere on it 
(figuring out how they do their worldfile URLs took too long and I gave up).  

-- 
Tom RussoKM5VY   SAR502   DM64ux  http://www.swcp.com/~russo/
Tijeras, NM  QRPL#1592 K2#398  SOC#236 AHTB#1 http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?DDTNM
"And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is
 one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh,
 oooh, the sky is the limit!"  --- The Tick
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Re: [Xastir] Terraserver problems with map registration

[Curt, WE7U]

On Wed, 28 Nov 2007, Curt, WE7U wrote:

> On Wed, 28 Nov 2007, Curt, WE7U wrote:
>
> > At 1410x950 it looks ok.  If I go much bigger in either direction
> > the registration gets knocked out of whack in the E/W direction.
>
> Looks like 1410x992 is the limit.  Go over that by one pixel in
> either direction and it's off.

Hmmm.  Can go up to 1408x1109 and it's fine too.  Must be larger
vertically before it can go larger horizontally?

--
Curt, WE7U:  XASTIR: 
  "Lotto:  A tax on people who are bad at math." -- unknown
"Windows:  Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates." -- WE7U
The world DOES revolve around me:  I picked the coordinate system!
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Re: [Xastir] Terraserver problems with map registration

[Curt, WE7U]

On Wed, 28 Nov 2007, Curt, WE7U wrote:

> At 1410x950 it looks ok.  If I go much bigger in either direction
> the registration gets knocked out of whack in the E/W direction.

Looks like 1410x992 is the limit.  Go over that by one pixel in
either direction and it's off.

--
Curt, WE7U:  XASTIR: 
  "Lotto:  A tax on people who are bad at math." -- unknown
"Windows:  Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates." -- WE7U
The world DOES revolve around me:  I picked the coordinate system!
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Re: [Xastir] Terraserver problems with map registration

[Curt, WE7U]

On Wed, 28 Nov 2007, Curt, WE7U wrote:

> Yes.  I recently went to 1600x1200 for X11 at home and at work.
> The Xastir window size is a large portion of that on one of my
> virtual screens.

At 1410x950 it looks ok.  If I go much bigger in either direction
the registration gets knocked out of whack in the E/W direction.

Known problem?  I don't recall seeing it before, but I haven't gone
to this resolution much before.  I've been at 1280x1024 mostly
before this.

--
Curt, WE7U:  XASTIR: 
  "Lotto:  A tax on people who are bad at math." -- unknown
"Windows:  Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates." -- WE7U
The world DOES revolve around me:  I picked the coordinate system!
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Re: [Xastir] Terraserver problems with map registration

[Curt, WE7U]

On Wed, 28 Nov 2007, Tom Russo wrote:

> Nope, not seeing that.  My current display is zoom 131 and looks fine.
>  
> Looks like it always has, everything lines up fine.
>
> Just curious:  did you by any chance change your window size anytime recently?
> What's your window dimension?

Yes.  I recently went to 1600x1200 for X11 at home and at work.
The Xastir window size is a large portion of that on one of my
virtual screens.

--
Curt, WE7U:  XASTIR: 
  "Lotto:  A tax on people who are bad at math." -- unknown
"Windows:  Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates." -- WE7U
The world DOES revolve around me:  I picked the coordinate system!
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Re: [Xastir] Terraserver problems with map registration

[Tom Russo]

On Wed, Nov 28, 2007 at 08:35:46AM -0800, we recorded a bogon-computron 
collision of the <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> flavor, containing:
> On Wed, 28 Nov 2007, Curt, WE7U wrote:
> 
> > Online Tigermap still looks reasonably good except for the goofy map
> > projection).
> >
> > Registration of Terraserver maps (including topo) are off a bit now.
> > The maps should be shifted to the west by roughly 3150ft at zoom 8.
> >
> > Anyone else seeing this?  Did the map server change, or did we?
> 
> Zooms 1/2/3 are fine.  At zoom 4 the registration is off.  As one
> zooms out the error gets larger and larger.

Nope, not seeing that.  My current display is zoom 131 and looks fine.
 
Looks like it always has, everything lines up fine.

Just curious:  did you by any chance change your window size anytime recently?  
What's your window dimension?

-- 
Tom RussoKM5VY   SAR502   DM64ux  http://www.swcp.com/~russo/
Tijeras, NM  QRPL#1592 K2#398  SOC#236 AHTB#1 http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?DDTNM
"And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is
 one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh,
 oooh, the sky is the limit!"  --- The Tick
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Re: [Xastir] Terraserver problems with map registration

[Curt, WE7U]

On Wed, 28 Nov 2007, Curt, WE7U wrote:

> Online Tigermap still looks reasonably good except for the goofy map
> projection).
>
> Registration of Terraserver maps (including topo) are off a bit now.
> The maps should be shifted to the west by roughly 3150ft at zoom 8.
>
> Anyone else seeing this?  Did the map server change, or did we?

Zooms 1/2/3 are fine.  At zoom 4 the registration is off.  As one
zooms out the error gets larger and larger.

--
Curt, WE7U:  XASTIR: 
  "Lotto:  A tax on people who are bad at math." -- unknown
"Windows:  Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates." -- WE7U
The world DOES revolve around me:  I picked the coordinate system!
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[Xastir] Terraserver problems with map registration

[Curt, WE7U]

Online Tigermap still looks reasonably good except for the goofy map
projection).

Registration of Terraserver maps (including topo) are off a bit now.
The maps should be shifted to the west by roughly 3150ft at zoom 8.

Anyone else seeing this?  Did the map server change, or did we?

--
Curt, WE7U:  XASTIR: 
  "Lotto:  A tax on people who are bad at math." -- unknown
"Windows:  Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates." -- WE7U
The world DOES revolve around me:  I picked the coordinate system!
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