Re: [XeTeX] bidi vs luabidi and polyglossia with Hebrew
Thank-you, Khaled. That is encouraging! I will try to play with this. K On 2014-07-29, 19:33, "Khaled Hosny" wrote: >On Tue, Jul 29, 2014 at 11:24:52PM +, Karljurgen Feuerherm wrote: >> * Why does this work with luabidi but not bidi? (or even, what¹s a >>likely >> reason) > >It is likely because with current XeTeX nodes are reversed >unconditionally, so some starting \special node is coming after its >ending one, which confuses the XDV driver. > >> * Is perhaps all of this likely to go away with the new XeTeX currently >> under discussion? > >It should help. > >Regards, >Khaled > > > > >-- >Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: > http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] bidi vs luabidi and polyglossia with Hebrew
On Tue, Jul 29, 2014 at 11:24:52PM +, Karljurgen Feuerherm wrote: > * Why does this work with luabidi but not bidi? (or even, what¹s a likely > reason) It is likely because with current XeTeX nodes are reversed unconditionally, so some starting \special node is coming after its ending one, which confuses the XDV driver. > * Is perhaps all of this likely to go away with the new XeTeX currently > under discussion? It should help. Regards, Khaled -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
[XeTeX] bidi vs luabidi and polyglossia with Hebrew
On July 5, I posted a query due to a problem I was having in creating media9 buttons in RTL mode. The error I was getting when placing a media button command in an RTL environment was "xdvipdfmx:fatal: A pending form XObject at the end of page.² A. Grahn offered a solution (http://tex.stackexchange.com/questions/188434/media-button-in-rtl; see the MWE there) which, however, depended upon using the luaTeX engine in place of XeTeX and fooling polyglossia into loading luabidi in place of bidi. I have found that I can compile my real document now, and it seems ok. But I am obviously concerned at a) using luaTeX for a production document, given that lua documentation warns against it, b) pulling tricks on polyglossia to get it to work, and c) the fact that I get "Package polyglossia Warning: Hebrew is not supported with LuaTeX. I will proceed with the compilation, but the output is not guaranteed to be correct and may look very wrong.² I have searched but cannot find info on what the issue is with Hebrew and luaTeX (my output so far seems fine). I wonder a number of things: * Dare I proceed? (I rather need the RTL media buttonsŠ.) * Why does this work with luabidi but not bidi? (or even, what¹s a likely reasonŠ) * What¹s the issue with Hebrew and luaTex? * Is perhaps all of this likely to go away with the new XeTeX currently under discussion? Any insight at all on this would be appreciated. I follow the XeTeX discussion with interest though I confess that the details are beyond me :) Karljürgen G. Feuerherm, PhD | 2-139 Department of History | Wilfrid Laurier University | 75 University Avenue West | Waterloo, Ontario N2L 3C5 -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] New version of xetex
On 29 July 2014 16:27, Khaled Hosny wrote: >> >> \hbox \bgroup \beginR$ > > That wouldn't work, as math (inline and display) are ensured to always > be LTR. oh yes, I knew that really:-) sorry Vafa, I shouldn't have queried you:-) David -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] New version of xetex
On Tue, Jul 29, 2014 at 03:35:57PM +0100, David Carlisle wrote: > > \hbox \bgroup $\beginR > > but couldn't you just do > > \hbox \bgroup \beginR$ That wouldn't work, as math (inline and display) are ensured to always be LTR. The original assumption was that you never need RTL math, but this is wrong both for actual math (which is set right to left in countries like Egypt) and (ab)using math mode for non-math material like here. Regards, Khaled -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] New version of xetex
>
>
>
> but couldn't you just do
>
> \hbox \bgroup \beginR$
>
> to get the same, but working with older engines?
>
That was the first thing I tried when I wanted to implement RTL tabular in
bidi. Unfortunately that neither works with old xetex nor with new one.
>
> > I will look at longtable and see if the same kind of thing can be done
> there.
>
> I don't have it here but can you put \beginR at the start of $$ and
> still have a display \halign? if so you could easily make longtable do
> the right thing
>
> $$\beginR\halign{&#\hfil\cr a&b&c\cr}\endR$$
>
> ?
>
>
In this case, using \beginR, \endR inside display mode gives "Improper
\halign inside $$'s." error.
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Re: [XeTeX] New version of xetex
> \hbox \bgroup $\beginR
but couldn't you just do
\hbox \bgroup \beginR$
to get the same, but working with older engines?
> I will look at longtable and see if the same kind of thing can be done there.
I don't have it here but can you put \beginR at the start of $$ and
still have a display \halign? if so you could easily make longtable do
the right thing
$$\beginR\halign{&#\hfil\cr a&b&c\cr}\endR$$
?
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Re: [XeTeX] New version of xetex
Hi David
I just did a quick experiment with new XeTeX. Since in new TeX-XeT
algorithm, \beginR, \beginL, \endR, and \endL can also be used in math
mode, the previous approach is not needed. Here is a test file for standard
LaTeX tabular environment:
\documentclass{article}
\begin{document}
\makeatletter
\def\@tabular{\leavevmode \hbox \bgroup $\beginR\let\@acol\@tabacol
\let\@classz\@tabclassz
\let\@classiv\@tabclassiv \let\\\@tabularcr\@tabarray}
\def\endtabular{\crcr\egroup\egroup \endR$\egroup}
\makeatother
\begin{tabular}{}
First&Second&Third&Fourth\\
\end{tabular}
\end{document}
I will look at longtable and see if the same kind of thing can be done
there.
On Tue, Jul 29, 2014 at 10:20 PM, David Carlisle
wrote:
> On 29 July 2014 12:55, Vafa Khalighi wrote:
> >
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> If you are looking at extending xetex's RTL support is there any
> >> chance of addressing RTL tables (as affects for example longtable in
> >> the other thread)?
> >> as the nodes can only go in hmode there is no good place to put them
> >> to affect the ordering of columns in an halign.
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi David,
> >
> > The only way to make RTL \halign in TeX-XeT is to do a construct like
> >
> > \hbox{\beginR\vbox{%
> > \halign material
> > }\endR}
>
> Yes, but (as you know) that's bad if the halign is on the main vertical
> list
> your bidi-longtable patch does as well as it can do to try to add the nodes
> in the output routine but it's not really got enough information.
>
> >
> > The parsitex change file (http://ctan.org/pkg/parsitex) which is also
> based
> > on Knuth TeX-XeT implements a \semihalign primitive that has the reverse
> > order column of \halign.
> >
> >
>
>
> That sounds good:-) an extension to flip the order of halign
> (or as you say a different primitive) would be easier to get right
> (and easier to share macro code with luatex)
>
> David
>
>
>
> --
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> http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
>
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Re: [XeTeX] New version of xetex
On 29 July 2014 12:55, Vafa Khalighi wrote:
>
>
>>
>>
>> If you are looking at extending xetex's RTL support is there any
>> chance of addressing RTL tables (as affects for example longtable in
>> the other thread)?
>> as the nodes can only go in hmode there is no good place to put them
>> to affect the ordering of columns in an halign.
>>
>
>
>
> Hi David,
>
> The only way to make RTL \halign in TeX-XeT is to do a construct like
>
> \hbox{\beginR\vbox{%
> \halign material
> }\endR}
Yes, but (as you know) that's bad if the halign is on the main vertical list
your bidi-longtable patch does as well as it can do to try to add the nodes
in the output routine but it's not really got enough information.
>
> The parsitex change file (http://ctan.org/pkg/parsitex) which is also based
> on Knuth TeX-XeT implements a \semihalign primitive that has the reverse
> order column of \halign.
>
>
That sounds good:-) an extension to flip the order of halign
(or as you say a different primitive) would be easier to get right
(and easier to share macro code with luatex)
David
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Re: [XeTeX] New version of xetex
>
> If you are looking at extending xetex's RTL support is there any
> chance of addressing RTL tables (as affects for example longtable in
> the other thread)?
> as the nodes can only go in hmode there is no good place to put them
> to affect the ordering of columns in an halign.
>
>
Hi David,
The only way to make RTL \halign in TeX-XeT is to do a construct like
\hbox{\beginR\vbox{%
\halign material
}\endR}
The parsitex change file (http://ctan.org/pkg/parsitex) which is also based
on Knuth TeX-XeT implements a \semihalign primitive that has the reverse
order column of \halign.
--
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Re: [XeTeX] New version of xetex
On 29 July 2014 10:55, Khaled Hosny wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 28, 2014 at 07:25:39PM +0200, Khaled Hosny wrote:
>> On Mon, Jul 28, 2014 at 10:24:39PM +1000, Vafa Khalighi wrote:
>> > >
>> > > Thanks, fixed.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > Thanks. I will try that. I know that in the new algorithm, \beginR,
>> > \beginL, \endR, and \endL are also allowed in math mode. But consider this
>> > minimal document
>> >
>> > \documentclass{article}
>> > \begin{document}
>> > \hbox{\beginR\vbox{%
>> > $$1+2=3$$
>> > }\endR}
>> > \end{document}
>> >
>> > The display math will be typeset RTL. Is there any switch that allows this
>> > to not happen? in etex, display math was always LTR but if there is some
>> > switch to turn this on/off, it would be great.
>>
>> So far there is not, but I'm still figuring what is the best option
>> here, may be a new primitive, say, \XeTeXmathdirection, with the values
>> 0 meaning math is always LTR (the default) and 1 meaning math respects
>> the surrounding text direction?
>
> Looking more closely, it seems I misidentified the issue. TeX-XeT resets
> the direction before inline and display math, so math is always LTR, but
> it seems that there is a bug that prevents this from happening in your
> example, I'll check that.
>
> In XeTeX we additionally allow the direction primitives in math mode so
> that one can manually override the default. I still think
> \XeTeXmathdirection primitive is needed to allow for document wide RTL
> math, but this is a different issue.
>
> Regards,
> Khaled
>
If you are looking at extending xetex's RTL support is there any
chance of addressing RTL tables (as affects for example longtable in
the other thread)?
as the nodes can only go in hmode there is no good place to put them
to affect the ordering of columns in an halign.
David
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Re: [XeTeX] New version of xetex
On Mon, Jul 28, 2014 at 07:25:39PM +0200, Khaled Hosny wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 28, 2014 at 10:24:39PM +1000, Vafa Khalighi wrote:
> > >
> > > Thanks, fixed.
> > >
> > >
> > Thanks. I will try that. I know that in the new algorithm, \beginR,
> > \beginL, \endR, and \endL are also allowed in math mode. But consider this
> > minimal document
> >
> > \documentclass{article}
> > \begin{document}
> > \hbox{\beginR\vbox{%
> > $$1+2=3$$
> > }\endR}
> > \end{document}
> >
> > The display math will be typeset RTL. Is there any switch that allows this
> > to not happen? in etex, display math was always LTR but if there is some
> > switch to turn this on/off, it would be great.
>
> So far there is not, but I'm still figuring what is the best option
> here, may be a new primitive, say, \XeTeXmathdirection, with the values
> 0 meaning math is always LTR (the default) and 1 meaning math respects
> the surrounding text direction?
Looking more closely, it seems I misidentified the issue. TeX-XeT resets
the direction before inline and display math, so math is always LTR, but
it seems that there is a bug that prevents this from happening in your
example, I'll check that.
In XeTeX we additionally allow the direction primitives in math mode so
that one can manually override the default. I still think
\XeTeXmathdirection primitive is needed to allow for document wide RTL
math, but this is a different issue.
Regards,
Khaled
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Re: [XeTeX] New version of xetex
Sounds good.
On Tue, Jul 29, 2014 at 3:25 AM, Khaled Hosny wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 28, 2014 at 10:24:39PM +1000, Vafa Khalighi wrote:
> > >
> > > Thanks, fixed.
> > >
> > >
> > Thanks. I will try that. I know that in the new algorithm, \beginR,
> > \beginL, \endR, and \endL are also allowed in math mode. But consider
> this
> > minimal document
> >
> > \documentclass{article}
> > \begin{document}
> > \hbox{\beginR\vbox{%
> > $$1+2=3$$
> > }\endR}
> > \end{document}
> >
> > The display math will be typeset RTL. Is there any switch that allows
> this
> > to not happen? in etex, display math was always LTR but if there is some
> > switch to turn this on/off, it would be great.
>
> So far there is not, but I'm still figuring what is the best option
> here, may be a new primitive, say, \XeTeXmathdirection, with the values
> 0 meaning math is always LTR (the default) and 1 meaning math respects
> the surrounding text direction?
>
> Regards,
> Khaled
>
>
>
> --
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>
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