Re: [XeTeX] babel

[Zdenek Wagner]

2016-03-25 12:38 GMT+01:00 Javier Bezos :

> El 25/03/2016 10:40, Zdenek Wagner escribió:
>
> The old IL2 encoding was creased for the CS fonts and supported in
>> cslatex. [...] Thus the result is that
>> the only encoding for Czech and Slovak that has ever been officially
>> supported in babel is T1. It makes no sense to introduce IL2 (and XL2
>> that was probably used by me only).
>>
>
> Then perhaps there should be a further key, like for example:
>
> encodings.deprecated
>

In case of IL2 it is not even deprecated but never supported.

>
> This will open the question about which encodings are deprecated.
> For example, I think like Apostolos LGR should be one of them,
> particularly because it doesn't conform to the LICR, but I presume
> some others won't agree.
>
> Javier
>
>
>
>
> Zdeněk Wagner
> http://ttsm.icpf.cas.cz/team/wagner.shtml
> http://icebearsoft.euweb.cz
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [XeTeX] babel

[Javier Bezos]

El 25/03/2016 10:40, Zdenek Wagner escribió:


The old IL2 encoding was creased for the CS fonts and supported in
cslatex. [...] Thus the result is that
the only encoding for Czech and Slovak that has ever been officially
supported in babel is T1. It makes no sense to introduce IL2 (and XL2
that was probably used by me only).


Then perhaps there should be a further key, like for example:

encodings.deprecated

This will open the question about which encodings are deprecated.
For example, I think like Apostolos LGR should be one of them,
particularly because it doesn't conform to the LICR, but I presume
some others won't agree.

Javier






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Re: [XeTeX] babel

[Zdenek Wagner]

2016-03-25 10:39 GMT+01:00 Apostolos Syropoulos :

>
>
> >
> >Why to stop it? I just feel easier to have one common source for
> everything than maintaining a separate source for 8-bit
> >babel, for babel for XeTeX, for babel for luatex etc.
> >
>
> Currently, there are more than 500 binaries in the TeXLive distribution.
> There is a reason for all these binaries.
> However, this makes things very complex and there is no reason to add
> complexity.
>

IMO one common source instead of three separate sources reduces complexity.
If you have several babels and you wish to correct something, you have to
apply the same correction manually several times, the same way in all
relevant files. If you have a single source, you do it just once and
everything will be built automatically.

>
> A.S.
>
>  --
> Apostolos Syropoulos
> Xanthi, Greece
>



Zdeněk Wagner
http://ttsm.icpf.cas.cz/team/wagner.shtml
http://icebearsoft.euweb.cz


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Re: [XeTeX] babel

[Zdenek Wagner]

Hi Ross and Javier,

there are two aspects. If I take an example of Czech and Slovak, many years
ago DC fonts and EC fonts were not suitable for Czech/Slovak typography,
therefore CS fonts with a different encoding were created. Now LM fonts as
well as TeX Gyre contain everything we need and are even better (only a few
people can really see the divverence between CS and LM). The old IL2
encoding was creased for the CS fonts and supported in cslatex. Jiří
Zlatuška prepared a patch for babel, gave it to me so tah I could extend
and publish it, it was later modified by several persons, the last one was
Petr Tesařík. The problem is that the support of two or more font encodings
requires a modification of the LaTeX kernel but it was not accepted by the
LaTeX team. Our patch was available from my web page but just very few
people really used it. Thus the result is that the only encoding for Czech
and Slovak that has ever been officially supported in babel is T1. It makes
no sense to introduce IL2 (and XL2 that was probably used by me only).

As far as collections of olde texts are concerned, there is no problem of
different font encodings but a problem of different input encodings. If I
take very old Czech/Slovak documents together with the newer ones, I will
kave a collection of files in 5 different encodings. Without reencoding the
files by iconv only encTeX ca cope with it. So we should keep the old
engines for legacy documents but it makes no sense to reproduce the old
input and old fonts in nowaday's engines.

Zdeněk Wagner
http://ttsm.icpf.cas.cz/team/wagner.shtml
http://icebearsoft.euweb.cz

2016-03-25 4:23 GMT+01:00 Ross Moore :

> Hi Javier,
>
> On Mar 24, 2016, at 5:59 PM, Javier Bezos  wrote:
>
> Apostolos,
>
> preface = \textPi \textrho\acctonos \textomicron\textlambda
> \textomicron\textgamma
>
> XeLaTeX is Unicode aware and can handle Unicode strings. Therefore, I fail
> to see
> why you are doing things this way. The LGR font encoding is an ancient
> hack that
> has no usage anymore.
>
>
> Of course, in Unicode engines the default captions section
> apply, not the captions.licr subsection.
>
>
> I think that it is absolutely correct that you build in continuing support
> for old encodings that may no longer be used with new documents.
>
> The existence of old documents using such encodings certainly
> warrants this — especially in the case of archives that process
> old (La)TeX sources to create PDFs on the fly.
>
> It is quite possible that in future these will be required to conform
> to modern standards, rather than just reproduce exactly what those
> sources did in past decades. Then there is the issue of old documents
> being aggregated with newer ones, for “Collected Works”-like publications.
>
> It is quite wrong to say that because we now have newer, better methods
> that those older methods should be discarded entirely.
>
>
> I’m facing exactly this problem, adapting  pdfx.sty  to be able to
> translate
> Metadata provided in old encodings: KOI8-R, LGR, OT6 etc.
> automatically into UTF-8, because the latter is required by XMP for
> requirements to satisfy PDF/A, PDF/X and PDF/E standards.
>
>
>
> Javier
>
>
> Keep up the good work.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Ross
>
>
> * Dr Ross Moore*
>
> *Mathematics Dept **|* Level 2, S2.638 AHH
> Macquarie University, NSW 2109, Australia
>
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>
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Re: [XeTeX] babel

[Zdenek Wagner]

2016-03-25 10:27 GMT+01:00 Apostolos Syropoulos :

> >
> >IMO the reason for such activity is to have one common declaration for
> all engines so that everything
>
> >is defined at one place and 8-bit babel as well as that for XeTeX is
> generated from the same source.
> >
>
> OK then let's stop compiling and distributing TeX, dvips, etc.! The
> approach: one tool for everything is
> wrong, wrong! Although I rarely use Office suites, there are things that
> one can definitely do with
> a scripting language and LaTeX but it is far easier to use a spreadsheet.
> I am not against Javier's
> project I am just saying this is something the people who maintain babel
> should discuss.
>

Why to stop it? I just feel easier to have one common source for everything
than maintaining a separate source for 8-bit babel, for babel for XeTeX,
for babel for luatex etc.

>
>
> A.S.
>



Zdeněk Wagner
http://ttsm.icpf.cas.cz/team/wagner.shtml
http://icebearsoft.euweb.cz



>
> --Apostolos Syropoulos
> Xanthi, Greece
>


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Re: [XeTeX] babel

[Apostolos Syropoulos]

>
>IMO the reason for such activity is to have one common declaration for all 
>engines so that everything 

>is defined at one place and 8-bit babel as well as that for XeTeX is generated 
>from the same source.
>

OK then let's stop compiling and distributing TeX, dvips, etc.! The approach: 
one tool for everything is
wrong, wrong! Although I rarely use Office suites, there are things that one 
can definitely do with
a scripting language and LaTeX but it is far easier to use a spreadsheet. I am 
not against Javier's
project I am just saying this is something the people who maintain babel should 
discuss.


A.S.

--Apostolos Syropoulos
Xanthi, Greece


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Re: [XeTeX] babel

[Zdenek Wagner]

Hi all,

IMO the reason for such activity is to have one common declaration for all
engines so that everything is defined at one place and 8-bit babel as well
as that for XeTeX is generated from the same source.

Zdeněk Wagner
http://ttsm.icpf.cas.cz/team/wagner.shtml
http://icebearsoft.euweb.cz

2016-03-25 10:13 GMT+01:00 Apostolos Syropoulos :

>
>
> >
> >I think that it is absolutely correct that you build in continuing support
> >for old encodings that may no longer be used with new documents.
> >
>
> Personally, I think this is an absolutely wrong approach! For legacy
> documents,
> we have legacy enginees like TeX. More specifically, if one wants to use
> legacy
>
> 8-bit or 7-bit encodings and legacy fonts, then she can use TeX. There is
> absolutely
> no reason to use XeTeX! After all, this the reason why the TeX community
> includes
> in TeXLive things like dvips, METAFONT fonts, etc. Finally, XeLaTeX can
> process
> these documents with existing packages just fine, why bother rewriting old
> things
> with "modern" ink?
>
>
> Apostolos Syropoulos
>
>
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