Re: [XeTeX] Hyperref \hyperlink and \hypertarget not working with accented characters

[Danyll Wills]

I think you are right. Surely the reason most of us care about these issues is 
that we are working in other languages, not just English. I began using XeTeX 
specifically because of how it handles multiple languages. My view is terribly 
simple: the world is far too interesting a place to be restricted to ASCII! 


Sent from my iPhone

On 3 Nov, 2011, at 21:53, "Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd)" 
 wrote:

> 
> 
> Danyll Wills wrote:
> 
>> Phil, I use XeLaTeX for Chinese, Japanese and Mongolian. I have watched the 
>> discussion over the past few days and am 100 per cent behind you. I started 
>> my programming life in the early '80s using 8086 Assembly language. Nothing 
>> irritates me more than the idea that ASCII is the only way to go. Your 
>> latest explanation was spot on! Well done.
>> 
>> /Danyll
> 
> Thank you, Danyll.  Although there are times when I feel like
> a lone prophet crying in the desert, I genuinely believe
> that people such as Heiko, Ross, Arthur et al are actually on
> our side : they too understand the need for people to be able
> to mark-up and typeset in any of the world's languages, and have
> probably done more than most to make this possible (and are still
> doing so).
> 
> Yet there /are/ lacunæ, and when they are identified (such
> as the lack of support for arbitrary Unicode characters in the first
> parameter to \hyperlink and \hypertarget), then surely it is
> better to accept that work still needs to be done, rather than
> attempt to sweep the problem under the carpet by saying "Don't
> use non-ASCII characters in the link" without adding "until this
> limitation can be overcome", or by stating that "Letters and digits
> are safe" without clarifying that by "letter" the author is referring
> solely to a very restricted set of "letters" that almost certainly
> excludes such common letters as "ł" or "ę", "ư" or "ẻ".
> 
> ** Phil.
> 
> 
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Re: [XeTeX] Hyperref \hyperlink and \hypertarget not working with accented characters

[Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Danyll Wills wrote:


Phil, I use XeLaTeX for Chinese, Japanese and Mongolian. I have watched the 
discussion over the past few days and am 100 per cent behind you. I started my 
programming life in the early '80s using 8086 Assembly language. Nothing 
irritates me more than the idea that ASCII is the only way to go. Your latest 
explanation was spot on! Well done.

/Danyll


Thank you, Danyll.  Although there are times when I feel like
a lone prophet crying in the desert, I genuinely believe
that people such as Heiko, Ross, Arthur et al are actually on
our side : they too understand the need for people to be able
to mark-up and typeset in any of the world's languages, and have
probably done more than most to make this possible (and are still
doing so).

Yet there /are/ lacunæ, and when they are identified (such
as the lack of support for arbitrary Unicode characters in the first
parameter to \hyperlink and \hypertarget), then surely it is
better to accept that work still needs to be done, rather than
attempt to sweep the problem under the carpet by saying "Don't
use non-ASCII characters in the link" without adding "until this
limitation can be overcome", or by stating that "Letters and digits
are safe" without clarifying that by "letter" the author is referring
solely to a very restricted set of "letters" that almost certainly
excludes such common letters as "ł" or "ę", "ư" or "ẻ".

** Phil.


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Re: [XeTeX] Hyperref \hyperlink and \hypertarget not working with accented characters

[Vafa Khalighi]

At least you can do your macro programming in whatever language you want,
in XeLaTeX, just like I do my macro programming only in Persian (which had
been my dream for a long time). see attached for an example.

2011/11/3 Danyll Wills 

> Phil, I use XeLaTeX for Chinese, Japanese and Mongolian. I have watched
> the discussion over the past few days and am 100 per cent behind you. I
> started my programming life in the early '80s using 8086 Assembly language.
> Nothing irritates me more than the idea that ASCII is the only way to go.
> Your latest explanation was spot on! Well done.
>
> /Danyll
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On 3 Nov, 2011, at 18:35, "Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd)" <
> p.tay...@rhul.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> > Dear Arthur, Paul, Heiko, Ross, others --
> >
> >>   Please stop.  I am serious.  Just stop.
> >
> > I was serious too (even when speaking of nominating Heiko
> > for the non-existent position of vice-Grand-Wizard of TeX :
> > that was a genuine expression of respect for his quite remarkable
> > solution to the problem of ascertaining whether a given control
> > word was, or was not, a TeX primitive).  I was also very serious
> > when I sought to defend the right of someone who wished to use
> >
> >>\hyperlink {rAsociaci¨®n}{APLT (1988)}
> >>
> >> with
> >>
> >>\hypertarget {rAsociaci¨®n}{Asociaci¨®n para la Promoci¨®n de
> Lecto-Escritura Tlapaneca.  1988.}
> >
> > There is no reason at all why someone using \hyperlink and \hypertarget
> > should need to know anything about AdobeStandardEncoding, byte strings,
> > UTF-16, or any of the other deeply technical considerations that
> > prevent "rAsociaci¨®n" from being used /directly/ as a Name string;
> > whatever massaging that is necessary to convert from "rAsociaci¨®n"
> > to a derived byte string in AdobeStandardEncoding (or whatever)
> > should be the responsibility of the intervening software layer
> > that implements \hyperlink and \hypertarget.  It surely /cannot/
> > be acceptable in the 21st century to tell such an author "Don't use
> > non-ASCII characters in the link" unless such a statement is qualified
> > with the words "until such time as the intervening software layer is
> > updated to allow such things".
> >
> > /This/ was the point that I was seeking to make, and if I made it
> > badly, then I apologise : all messages sent over the last few days have
> > been sent in conditions of extreme difficulty, with one arm completely
> > useless (as a result of a tendon injury) and considerable pain (for
> > the same reason).
> >
> > Very sincerely :
> > ** Phil.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.:
> > http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
>
>
>
> --
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>


khat-zakhimtar-dar-vasat-example.tex
Description: TeX document


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Re: [XeTeX] Hyperref \hyperlink and \hypertarget not working with accented characters

[Danyll Wills]

Phil, I use XeLaTeX for Chinese, Japanese and Mongolian. I have watched the 
discussion over the past few days and am 100 per cent behind you. I started my 
programming life in the early '80s using 8086 Assembly language. Nothing 
irritates me more than the idea that ASCII is the only way to go. Your latest 
explanation was spot on! Well done.

/Danyll



Sent from my iPhone

On 3 Nov, 2011, at 18:35, "Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd)" 
 wrote:

> Dear Arthur, Paul, Heiko, Ross, others --
> 
>>   Please stop.  I am serious.  Just stop.
> 
> I was serious too (even when speaking of nominating Heiko
> for the non-existent position of vice-Grand-Wizard of TeX :
> that was a genuine expression of respect for his quite remarkable
> solution to the problem of ascertaining whether a given control
> word was, or was not, a TeX primitive).  I was also very serious
> when I sought to defend the right of someone who wished to use
> 
>>\hyperlink {rAsociación}{APLT (1988)}
>> 
>> with
>> 
>>\hypertarget {rAsociación}{Asociación para la Promoción de 
>> Lecto-Escritura Tlapaneca.  1988.}
> 
> There is no reason at all why someone using \hyperlink and \hypertarget
> should need to know anything about AdobeStandardEncoding, byte strings,
> UTF-16, or any of the other deeply technical considerations that
> prevent "rAsociación" from being used /directly/ as a Name string;
> whatever massaging that is necessary to convert from "rAsociación"
> to a derived byte string in AdobeStandardEncoding (or whatever)
> should be the responsibility of the intervening software layer
> that implements \hyperlink and \hypertarget.  It surely /cannot/
> be acceptable in the 21st century to tell such an author "Don't use
> non-ASCII characters in the link" unless such a statement is qualified
> with the words "until such time as the intervening software layer is
> updated to allow such things".
> 
> /This/ was the point that I was seeking to make, and if I made it
> badly, then I apologise : all messages sent over the last few days have
> been sent in conditions of extreme difficulty, with one arm completely
> useless (as a result of a tendon injury) and considerable pain (for
> the same reason).
> 
> Very sincerely :
> ** Phil.
> 
> 
> --
> Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.:
> http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex



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Re: [XeTeX] Hyperref \hyperlink and \hypertarget not working with accented characters

[Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Dear Arthur, Paul, Heiko, Ross, others --


   Please stop.  I am serious.  Just stop.


I was serious too (even when speaking of nominating Heiko
for the non-existent position of vice-Grand-Wizard of TeX :
that was a genuine expression of respect for his quite remarkable
solution to the problem of ascertaining whether a given control
word was, or was not, a TeX primitive).  I was also very serious
when I sought to defend the right of someone who wished to use


\hyperlink {rAsociación}{APLT (1988)}

with

\hypertarget {rAsociación}{Asociación para la Promoción de Lecto-Escritura 
Tlapaneca.  1988.}


There is no reason at all why someone using \hyperlink and \hypertarget
should need to know anything about AdobeStandardEncoding, byte strings,
UTF-16, or any of the other deeply technical considerations that
prevent "rAsociación" from being used /directly/ as a Name string;
whatever massaging that is necessary to convert from "rAsociación"
to a derived byte string in AdobeStandardEncoding (or whatever)
should be the responsibility of the intervening software layer
that implements \hyperlink and \hypertarget.  It surely /cannot/
be acceptable in the 21st century to tell such an author "Don't use
non-ASCII characters in the link" unless such a statement is qualified
with the words "until such time as the intervening software layer is
updated to allow such things".

/This/ was the point that I was seeking to make, and if I made it
badly, then I apologise : all messages sent over the last few days have
been sent in conditions of extreme difficulty, with one arm completely
useless (as a result of a tendon injury) and considerable pain (for
the same reason).

Very sincerely :
** Phil.


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Re: [XeTeX] Hyperref \hyperlink and \hypertarget not working with accented characters

[Ross Moore]

Hi Phil,

On 03/11/2011, at 10:26 AM, Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd) wrote:

>  And when
> I added a throw-away line to the effect that Heiko,
> as well as Adobe, need to put US ASCII behind them
> and move into the 21st Century

Unless you have actually read the PDF specs, you really
are not qualified to make such a statement.

Adobe *does* support Unicode, in many different ways,
both in Content and in identifiers, as my previous post shows. 

It just doesn't support UTF8 bytes directly in Name strings,
which seems to be what you are complaining about.
But such direct support is simply not possible, within
files that contain both data and programming constructs,
without employing some kind of "escaping" technique.
There have to be some characters that are treated specially,
to avoid problems with delimiters, and allow for alternative 
ways of referring to extra characters.
Every programming language that I've ever seen has this kind
of feature, somewhere within its rule set.

Adobe have chosen their rules, and they work very when
*when you follow those rules*.
PDF is a published ISO Spec. so anyone can read it,
and implement it, or try to determine what is wrong
when things do not go as hoped for.


> (as DEK did in 1990,
> after FMi and others made representations to him
> concerning the need for TeX to support a character
> set that include at least the basic Western diacritics),
> again there is no disrespect, either explicit or
> implied.  I am sure that Heiko was not offended, and
> if he was, he has full access to my personal mailbox
> and is welcome at any time to complain if he feels that
> I have failed to show the respect he clearly deserves.
> 
> ** Phil.


Hope this helps,

Ross

(Sorry Arthur, for adding to this thread.
Hopefully this will be the last of it, until someone looks
at the apparent failure to follow the spec that I identified
in my previous message.)


Ross Moore   ross.mo...@mq.edu.au 
Mathematics Department   office: E7A-419  
Macquarie University tel: +61 (0)2 9850 8955
Sydney, Australia  2109  fax: +61 (0)2 9850 8114






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Re: [XeTeX] Hyperref \hyperlink and \hypertarget not working with accented characters

[Arthur Reutenauer]

Phil,

  Please stop.  I am serious.  Just stop.

Arthur


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Re: [XeTeX] Hyperref \hyperlink and \hypertarget not working with accented characters

[Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Dear Paul -- Thank you for your spirited defence of Heiko,
which is accepted in the spirit in which it was made.  I,
too, have the greatest respect for Heiko's work (indeed, it
is only a a short time since I said I had considered nominating
him for the non-existent position of vice-Grand-Wizard of TeX, for his
ingenuity and creativity [1]), but that does not, and will
not, stop me from challenging him when I believe that
he is wrong.  Wrong, for example, in tacitly suggesting
that ä, ö, ü, ß, ł, ę not letters but rather "arbitrary rubbisch"
or "funny stuff"; wrong in suggesting that my mail client
does not send UTF-8 but rather ISO-8859-1 (when my mail client
was doing his mail client the courtesy of responding in
kind, rather than sending UTF-8 to a client that itself
converts UTF-8 into ISO-8859-1 and mangles l-bar and
e-ogonek in the process).  None of these challenges
are in the least disrespectful : rather, they are in
the normal tradition of forceful academic debate.  And when
I added a throw-away line to the effect that Heiko,
as well as Adobe, need to put US ASCII behind them
and move into the 21st Century (as DEK did in 1990,
after FMi and others made representations to him
concerning the need for TeX to support a character
set that include at least the basic Western diacritics),
again there is no disrespect, either explicit or
implied.  I am sure that Heiko was not offended, and
if he was, he has full access to my personal mailbox
and is welcome at any time to complain if he feels that
I have failed to show the respect he clearly deserves.

** Phil.

[1] I am /seriously/ impressed, and was about to nominate you

Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2011 21:48:54 +0100
From: "Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd)" 
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:6.0.2) Gecko/20110902 
SeaMonkey/2.3.3
To: tex...@tug.org
Subject: Re: [texhax] testing if a control sequence is primitive
In-Reply-To: <20111008201332.ga8...@oberdiek.my-fqdn.de>

I am /seriously/ impressed, and was about to nominate you
for the post of vice-Grand Wizard of TeX (no salary, I am
afraid), when I thought to try the following :

\Test \newif

Philip Taylor

Heiko Oberdiek wrote :

Paul A Norman wrote:

I have personally had to look at depth at times at some of Heiko's packages
and have the greatest respect for what he dies in trying to make the whole lot 
work together well across all the international standards and other difficult 
bits which are on no standard at present and feel that he and the others 
involved deserve our greatfulness, respect and honour for the work that they do.

So I see these kind of perhaps cavalier and personally directed remarks as 
counter productive - Heiko does not make the standard(s) but has done a 
tremendously enormous amount to make everything work for everyone- working with 
the very difficultidiosyncrasies of what is on the International stage at 
present.

"Now we clearly
need to start on Adobe (and Heiko !). <

I can not even see that in good humour and really believe it is needless waste 
of a genuine hard working developer's time to be singled out in that manner for 
no real purpose as far as I can discern - other than perhaps making the writer 
feel self important?

Paul





On 3 November 2011 01:21, Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd) mailto:p.tay...@rhul.ac.uk>> wrote:



Ross Moore wrote:

My advice is simply that if you restrict yourself to ASCII
letters, then you will not face any difficulties.
This is pure pragmatism; nothing less.


As was Knuth's decision to base TeX on US-ASCII.

Fortunately, FMi and others were able to convince
him that he was wrong, whence TeX 3. Now we clearly
need to start on Adobe (and Heiko !).

** Phil.



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Re: [XeTeX] Hyperref \hyperlink and \hypertarget not working with accented characters

[Paul A Norman]

I have personally had to look at depth at times at some of Heiko's packages
and have the greatest respect for what he dies in trying to make the whole
lot work together well across all the international standards and other
difficult bits which are on no standard at present and feel that he and the
others involved deserve our greatfulness, respect and honour for the work
that they do.

So I see these kind of perhaps cavalier and personally directed remarks as
counter productive - Heiko does not make the standard(s) but has done a
tremendously enormous amount to make everything work for everyone- working
with the very difficultidiosyncrasies of what is on the International stage
at present.

" Now we clearly
need to start on Adobe (and Heiko !). <

I can not even see that  in good humour and really believe it is needless
waste of a genuine hard working developer's time to be singled out in that
manner for no real purpose as far as I can discern - other than perhaps
making the writer feel self important?

Paul





On 3 November 2011 01:21, Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd) <
p.tay...@rhul.ac.uk> wrote:

>
>
> Ross Moore wrote:
>
>  My advice is simply that if you restrict yourself to ASCII
>> letters, then you will not face any difficulties.
>> This is pure pragmatism; nothing less.
>>
>
> As was Knuth's decision to base TeX on US-ASCII.
>
> Fortunately, FMi and others were able to convince
> him that he was wrong, whence TeX 3.  Now we clearly
> need to start on Adobe (and Heiko !).
>
> ** Phil.
>
>
>
> --**
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> http://tug.org/mailman/**listinfo/xetex
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Re: [XeTeX] Hyperref \hyperlink and \hypertarget not working with accented characters

[Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Heiko Oberdiek wrote:


XeTeX can't write byte strings.


[PT] Is this a XeTeX or an (x)dvipdfmx limitation, Heiko?


AFAIK both.


OK, I'm glad we have managed to identify a real problem.  Thank you.
** Phil.


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Re: [XeTeX] Hyperref \hyperlink and \hypertarget not working with accented characters

[Heiko Oberdiek]

On Wed, Nov 02, 2011 at 01:30:53PM +, Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd) 
wrote:

> Heiko Oberdiek wrote:
> 
> >XeTeX can't write byte strings.
> 
> Is this a XeTeX or an (x)dvipdfmx limitation, Heiko?

AFAIK both.

Yours sincerely
  Heiko Oberdiek


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Re: [XeTeX] Hyperref \hyperlink and \hypertarget not working with accented characters

[Zdenek Wagner]

2011/11/2 Heiko Oberdiek :
> On Wed, Nov 02, 2011 at 01:11:04PM +, Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd) 
> wrote:
>
>> >Byte string means that the string consists of bytes 0-255 (or 1..255).
>> >Can you write them with XeTeX in a file or use as destination names
>> >without using a different encoding?
>>
>> I do not understand the question.  There /is/ no "encoding" in a
>> byte string; it is a byte string, by definition.  What am I missing ?
>
> That XeTeX can't write byte strings.
>
A character in UTF-8 is 1 to 5 bytes. UTF-8 string must use prefix
encoding so that the reader must always know whether the part already
read is a complete character or whether other byte(s) have to be read.
That's why certain bytes at certain positions are not valid in UTF-8
strings. XeTeX can write UTF-8 only, it means it cannot write
arbitrary strings.

> Yours sincerely
>  Heiko Oberdiek
>
>
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-- 
Zdeněk Wagner
http://hroch486.icpf.cas.cz/wagner/
http://icebearsoft.euweb.cz



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Re: [XeTeX] Hyperref \hyperlink and \hypertarget not working with accented characters

[Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Heiko Oberdiek wrote:


XeTeX can't write byte strings.


Is this a XeTeX or an (x)dvipdfmx limitation, Heiko?

** P.


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Re: [XeTeX] Hyperref \hyperlink and \hypertarget not working with accented characters

[Heiko Oberdiek]

On Wed, Nov 02, 2011 at 01:11:04PM +, Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd) 
wrote:

> >Byte string means that the string consists of bytes 0-255 (or 1..255).
> >Can you write them with XeTeX in a file or use as destination names
> >without using a different encoding?
> 
> I do not understand the question.  There /is/ no "encoding" in a
> byte string; it is a byte string, by definition.  What am I missing ?

That XeTeX can't write byte strings.

Yours sincerely
  Heiko Oberdiek


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Re: [XeTeX] Hyperref \hyperlink and \hypertarget not working with accented characters

[Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Heiko Oberdiek wrote:


 ä, ö, ü, ß
 \bye

is anything other than a normal, everyday, document ?


The mail header of your posting, send by the list server
contains:
   Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"

Then I must have received a quite abnormal mail out of norm?


No, Heiko, what you received was my mail client trying to deal with
your mail client in an encoding acceptable to both.  My original
message, with l-bar and o-ogonek, was encoded as :

text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed

your reply, with the l-bar and o-ogonek replaced by paired
interrogatives ("arbitrary rubbisch", to use your own words),
was encoded as :

text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Thereafter, my mail client, realising that your mail client
still lived in the dark ages, fell back on a legacy encoding
that was acceptable to both.



From the last mails I found 477 lines with:

   "Content-Type: text/plain; charset="..."

us-ascii: 237
UTF-8: 114
ISO-8859-1: 60
ISO-8859-2: 44
windows-1252: 21
windows-1256: 1


Doutbtless if you looked harder, you could find some in BIG-5
as well.  That does not mean that the world has not moved on
(at least, parts of it; others, despite their diacritic-rich
heritage, seem remarkably and inexplicably opposed to progress).


Of course, also a font in T1, ... encoding can be used.
Or the input encoding might differ from the font
encoding by mapping via macros, ...


We could even agree, Humpty-Dumpty-like, that when I write
the letter "e", it means exactly what I choose it to mean,
neither more nor less.  So today, I could choose it to mean
o-ogonek; tomorrow, l-bar.  The world is one's oyster, if
one is Humpty Dumpty.


Back to XeTeX:

Byte string means that the string consists of bytes 0-255 (or 1..255).
Can you write them with XeTeX in a file or use as destination names
without using a different encoding?


I do not understand the question.  There /is/ no "encoding" in a
byte string; it is a byte string, by definition.  What am I missing ?

** P.


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Re: [XeTeX] Hyperref \hyperlink and \hypertarget not working with accented characters

[Heiko Oberdiek]

On Wed, Nov 02, 2011 at 12:21:49PM +, Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd) 
wrote:

> Ross Moore wrote:
> 
> >My advice is simply that if you restrict yourself to ASCII
> >letters, then you will not face any difficulties.
> >This is pure pragmatism; nothing less.
> 
> As was Knuth's decision to base TeX on US-ASCII.
> 
> Fortunately, FMi and others were able to convince
> him that he was wrong, whence TeX 3.  Now we clearly
> need to start on Adobe (and Heiko !).

Why? For destinations the data type is "byte string"
that covers much more encodings than you can think of.

But the tools inbetween apply restrictions (plain TeX,
LaTeX, XeTeX, xdvipdfmx, ...).

And for example, XeTeX adds the restriction that
arbitrary 8-bit bytes cannot be written. A severe
restriction when dealing with binary formats and
arbitrary data.

Yours sincerely
  Heiko Oberdiek


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Re: [XeTeX] Hyperref \hyperlink and \hypertarget not working with accented characters

[mskala]

On Wed, 2 Nov 2011, Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd) wrote:
> Fortunately, FMi and others were able to convince
> him that he was wrong, whence TeX 3.  Now we clearly
> need to start on Adobe (and Heiko !).

If Ross Moore's and other recent technical postings are to be believed,
this is a non-issue.  The file format already allows arbitrary byte
sequences in the field we're talking about, on top of the fact that that
field isn't exposed to readers and doesn't limit the language of
documents at all.

If the ASCII link anchor limitation existed in PDF it would be not much
different from the genuine limitation that object ID numbers must be
integers even if you would prefer to make them text.  Link anchors are
internal codes; they are not text at all, and it's not reasonable to
demand that they must be UTF-8-encoded text in particular.

But PDF doesn't actually limit link anchors to ASCII anyway.  As far as
PDF is concerned (according to recent postings on this list) you can use
UTF-8.  The fact that you can't do that with TeX is TeX's fault, and
relates to the issue Heiko Oberdiek described that TeX can't write
arbitrary byte sequences in all contexts.  He also suggested some possible
workarounds that someone could implement if it were important to do so;
but it really isn't.
-- 
Matthew Skala
msk...@ansuz.sooke.bc.ca People before principles.
http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/


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Re: [XeTeX] Hyperref \hyperlink and \hypertarget not working with accented characters

[Heiko Oberdiek]

On Wed, Nov 02, 2011 at 11:42:38AM +, Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd) 
wrote:

> Heiko Oberdiek wrote:
> >On Wed, Nov 02, 2011 at 11:14:54AM +, Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd) 
> >wrote:
> >
> >>Heiko Oberdiek wrote:
> >>
> >>>If the OP needs funny stuff as labels
> >>
> >>Heiko, you are, I believe, a native German speaker
> >>(please correct me if I am mistaken).  In your
> >>personal opinion, are the following "letters",
> >>"arbitrary rubbisch", or "funny stuff" ?
> >>
> >>ä, ö, ü, ß, ??, ??
> >
> >Then try
> >   ä, ö, ü, ß
> >   \bye
> >in plain TeX.
> 
> But we're not discussing Plain TeX, Heiko : this is the
> XeTeX list,

You are free to use plain XeTeX.

> where the world has moved on, where UTF-8 is
> the norm, and where ASCII is no more than a bad dream.
> Are you really suggesting that in Plain XeTeX,
> 
> ä, ö, ü, ß
> \bye
> 
> is anything other than a normal, everyday, document ?

The mail header of your posting, send by the list server
contains:
  Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"

Then I must have received a quite abnormal mail out of norm?

>From the last mails I found 477 lines with:
  "Content-Type: text/plain; charset="..."

us-ascii: 237
UTF-8: 114
ISO-8859-1: 60
ISO-8859-2: 44
windows-1252: 21
windows-1256: 1

> I have just processed it here, and with
> the addition of just two lines to change the default
> font to a Unicode-compatible one, it generates exactly
> what one would hope for and expect in the 21st century.

Of course, also a font in T1, ... encoding can be used.
Or the input encoding might differ from the font
encoding by mapping via macros, ...

Back to XeTeX:

Byte string means that the string consists of bytes 0-255 (or 1..255).
Can you write them with XeTeX in a file or use as destination names
without using a different encoding?

Yours sincerely
  Heiko Oberdiek


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Re: [XeTeX] Hyperref \hyperlink and \hypertarget not working with accented characters

[Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Ross Moore wrote:


My advice is simply that if you restrict yourself to ASCII
letters, then you will not face any difficulties.
This is pure pragmatism; nothing less.


As was Knuth's decision to base TeX on US-ASCII.

Fortunately, FMi and others were able to convince
him that he was wrong, whence TeX 3.  Now we clearly
need to start on Adobe (and Heiko !).

** Phil.


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Re: [XeTeX] Hyperref \hyperlink and \hypertarget not working with accented characters

[Ross Moore]

Hi Phil,

On 02/11/2011, at 7:54 PM, Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd) wrote:

> Ross Moore wrote:
> 
>> On 02/11/2011, at 10:40 AM, Andy Black wrote:
>> 
  \hyperlink{rAsociación}{APLT (1988)}
>> 
>> Don't use non-ASCII characters in the link.
> 
> Oh dear, does PDF still live in the TeX 2 era ?  Surely /someone/ in
> Adobe is aware that there are character sets other than US English,
> and that those who write in such languages are perfectly entitled
> to wish to use them in links, whether or not such text ever appears
> on-screen ?

No. I disagree with what you say.

Adobe respects Unicode. It does not have to agree with 
the UTF8 encoding of it.

PDF is an ISO standard now, so is properly published,
and anyone can conform with what has been published.

This is miles (!) better than many other attempts to impose 
acceptance of other preferences for encoding of data.
The PDF specs say what is acceptable in all the different
circumstances where character data is used for different
purposes, and it provides mechanisms for arbitrary content
to be translated to Unicode code-points, irrespective of 
how individual fonts may be encoded.

Specifying an internal representation of a symbolic link 
is a programmatic thing, not a textual content thing.
So of course you need to follow the published syntax.

Thus the question here reduces to whether XeTeX, or the 
hyperref package, should ensure that whatever restrictions 
imposed by the published PDF spec are met, or whether 
the author needs to do it him/herself.

My advice is simply that if you restrict yourself to ASCII 
letters, then you will not face any difficulties.
This is pure pragmatism; nothing less.

> 
> Philip Taylor



All the best,

Ross


Ross Moore   ross.mo...@mq.edu.au 
Mathematics Department   office: E7A-419  
Macquarie University tel: +61 (0)2 9850 8955
Sydney, Australia  2109  fax: +61 (0)2 9850 8114







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Re: [XeTeX] Hyperref \hyperlink and \hypertarget not working with accented characters

[Ross Moore]

Hi Phil,

On 02/11/2011, at 7:54 PM, Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd) wrote:

> Ross Moore wrote:
> 
>> On 02/11/2011, at 10:40 AM, Andy Black wrote:
>> 
   \hyperlink{rAsociación}{APLT (1988)}
>> 
>> Don't use non-ASCII characters in the link.
> 
> Oh dear, does PDF still live in the TeX 2 era ?  Surely /someone/ in
> Adobe is aware that there are character sets other than US English,
> and that those who write in such languages are perfectly entitled
> to wish to use them in links, whether or not such text ever appears
> on-screen ?

No. I disagree with what you say.

Adobe respects Unicode. It does not have to agree with 
the UTF8 encoding of it.

PDF is an ISO standard now, so is properly published,
and anyone can conform with what has been published.

This is miles (!) better than many other attempts to impose 
acceptance of other preferences for encoding of data.
The PDF specs say what is acceptable in all the different
circumstances where character data is used for different
purposes, and it provides mechanisms for arbitrary content
to be translated to Unicode code-points, irrespective of 
how individual fonts may be encoded.

Specifying an internal representation of a symbolic link 
is a programmatic thing, not a textual content thing.
So of course you need to follow the published syntax.

Thus the question here reduces to whether XeTeX, or the 
hyperref package, should ensure that whatever restrictions 
imposed by the published PDF spec are met, or whether 
the author needs to do it him/herself.

My advice is simply that if you restrict yourself to ASCII 
letters, then you will not face any difficulties.
This is pure pragmatism; nothing less.

> 
> Philip Taylor



All the best,

Ross


Ross Moore   ross.mo...@mq.edu.au 
Mathematics Department   office: E7A-419  
Macquarie University tel: +61 (0)2 9850 8955
Sydney, Australia  2109  fax: +61 (0)2 9850 8114







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Re: [XeTeX] Hyperref \hyperlink and \hypertarget not working with accented characters

[Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Heiko Oberdiek wrote:

On Wed, Nov 02, 2011 at 11:14:54AM +, Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd) 
wrote:


Heiko Oberdiek wrote:


If the OP needs funny stuff as labels


Heiko, you are, I believe, a native German speaker
(please correct me if I am mistaken).  In your
personal opinion, are the following "letters",
"arbitrary rubbisch", or "funny stuff" ?

ä, ö, ü, ß, ??, ??


Then try
   ä, ö, ü, ß
   \bye
in plain TeX.


But we're not discussing Plain TeX, Heiko : this is the
XeTeX list, where the world has moved on, where UTF-8 is
the norm, and where ASCII is no more than a bad dream.
Are you really suggesting that in Plain XeTeX,

ä, ö, ü, ß
\bye

is anything other than a normal, everyday, document ?

I have just processed it here, and with
the addition of just two lines to change the default
font to a Unicode-compatible one, it generates exactly
what one would hope for and expect in the 21st century.

** P.



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Re: [XeTeX] Hyperref \hyperlink and \hypertarget not working with accented characters

[Heiko Oberdiek]

On Wed, Nov 02, 2011 at 11:14:54AM +, Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd) 
wrote:

> Heiko Oberdiek wrote:
> 
> >If the OP needs funny stuff as labels
> 
> Heiko, you are, I believe, a native German speaker
> (please correct me if I am mistaken).  In your
> personal opinion, are the following "letters",
> "arbitrary rubbisch", or "funny stuff" ?
> 
>   ä, ö, ü, ß, ??, ??

Then try 
  ä, ö, ü, ß
  \bye
in plain TeX.

Yours sincerely
  Heiko Oberdiek


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Re: [XeTeX] Hyperref \hyperlink and \hypertarget not working with accented characters

[Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Heiko Oberdiek wrote:


Example: Destination names in PDF are just byte strings.
Thus you could put arbitrary rubbisch in there. The string
is used as id label to identify a destination/anchor.

Regarding hyperref: an anchor name has similar restrictions
as a \label name. Letters and digits are safe. The rest
might work or does not. (There is some support for
babel shorthands, thus they should work.)



If the OP needs funny stuff as labels


Heiko, you are, I believe, a native German speaker
(please correct me if I am mistaken).  In your
personal opinion, are the following "letters",
"arbitrary rubbisch", or "funny stuff" ?

ä, ö, ü, ß, ł, ę

(FWIW, they are all clearly letters IMHO, with
the possible exception of ß which might, I suppose,
be a ligature-digraph).

** Phil.


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Re: [XeTeX] Hyperref \hyperlink and \hypertarget not working with accented characters

[Heiko Oberdiek]

On Wed, Nov 02, 2011 at 10:44:27AM +, Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd) 
wrote:

> Arthur Reutenauer wrote:
> >>OK.  But could a PDF reader not use the same detection algorithm
> >>as (say) the Microsoft C# Compiler -- "No BOM : ASCII; BOM : UTF-8" ?
> >
> >   Of course not; UTF-8 strings do not necessarily contain a BOM.  Where
> >did you get that strange idea from?
> 
> I didn't :-)  But that is how the Microsoft C# compiler determines
> how to treat string literals in C# programs, and although I initially found
> it confusing, once I discovered the algorithm I never looked back ...
> 
> If it works for Microsoft, why not for Adobe ?

The strings used in destination names are byte strings for Adobe.
It only matters that names for different destinations are different
and can be sorted. There is no "meaning" in the string/name contents
consisting of bytes, not characters.

Yours sincerely
  Heiko Oberdiek


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Re: [XeTeX] Hyperref \hyperlink and \hypertarget not working with accented characters

[Heiko Oberdiek]

On Wed, Nov 02, 2011 at 10:24:11AM +, Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd) 
wrote:

> Zdenek Wagner wrote:
> 
> >No, it won't be that easy. Syntax (string) in links is in
> >AdobeStandardEncoding and some of these characters are not valid in
> >UTF-8.
> 
> OK.  But could a PDF reader not use the same detection algorithm
> as (say) the Microsoft C# Compiler -- "No BOM : ASCII; BOM : UTF-8" ?

Example: Destination names in PDF are just byte strings.
Thus you could put arbitrary rubbisch in there. The string
is used as id label to identify a destination/anchor.

Regarding hyperref: an anchor name has similar restrictions
as a \label name. Letters and digits are safe. The rest
might work or does not. (There is some support for
babel shorthands, thus they should work.)

Regarding XeTeX: AFAIK, it's asymmetriacl it can read
many encodings, but can't write arbitrary bytes.

Anchor names go into the .aux file, are reread from there
and go into the .pdf file. It would be fatal if the
names changes (active characters, reencodings, ...) or
all uses of that name must undergo the same changes.

If the OP needs funny stuff as labels, because they are
generated automatically, then the it can be made safe
by converting to hex strings (package pdfescape
and others), for example.

Yours sincerely
  Heiko Oberdiek


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Re: [XeTeX] Hyperref \hyperlink and \hypertarget not working with accented characters

[Arthur Reutenauer]

> BOM is already used in outlines but the application that creates PDF
> has to write BOM. As Arthur wrote, there are a lot of files in UTF-8
> that do not have BOM. Even in XML BOM is only optional.

  Actually, it even used to be frowned upon in UTF-8 text :-)  It was
originally meant for tagging byte order (as the name hints) in strings
encoded using UCS-2 in native byte order, and was useless for that
purpose in UTF-8, that always has the most significant byte first.

Arthur


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Re: [XeTeX] Hyperref \hyperlink and \hypertarget not working with accented characters

[Zdenek Wagner]

2011/11/2 Arthur Reutenauer :
>> OK.  But could a PDF reader not use the same detection algorithm
>> as (say) the Microsoft C# Compiler -- "No BOM : ASCII; BOM : UTF-8" ?
>
>  Of course not; UTF-8 strings do not necessarily contain a BOM.  Where
> did you get that strange idea from?
>
BOM is already used in outlines but the application that creates PDF
has to write BOM. As Arthur wrote, there are a lot of files in UTF-8
that do not have BOM. Even in XML BOM is only optional.

>        Arthur
>
>
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Re: [XeTeX] Hyperref \hyperlink and \hypertarget not working with accented characters

[Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Arthur Reutenauer wrote:

OK.  But could a PDF reader not use the same detection algorithm
as (say) the Microsoft C# Compiler -- "No BOM : ASCII; BOM : UTF-8" ?


   Of course not; UTF-8 strings do not necessarily contain a BOM.  Where
did you get that strange idea from?


I didn't :-)  But that is how the Microsoft C# compiler determines
how to treat string literals in C# programs, and although I initially found
it confusing, once I discovered the algorithm I never looked back ...

If it works for Microsoft, why not for Adobe ?

** Phil.


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Re: [XeTeX] Hyperref \hyperlink and \hypertarget not working with accented characters

[Arthur Reutenauer]

> OK.  But could a PDF reader not use the same detection algorithm
> as (say) the Microsoft C# Compiler -- "No BOM : ASCII; BOM : UTF-8" ?

  Of course not; UTF-8 strings do not necessarily contain a BOM.  Where
did you get that strange idea from?

Arthur


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Re: [XeTeX] Hyperref \hyperlink and \hypertarget not working with accented characters

[Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Zdenek Wagner wrote:


No, it won't be that easy. Syntax (string) in links is in
AdobeStandardEncoding and some of these characters are not valid in
UTF-8.


OK.  But could a PDF reader not use the same detection algorithm
as (say) the Microsoft C# Compiler -- "No BOM : ASCII; BOM : UTF-8" ?

** Phil.


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Re: [XeTeX] Hyperref \hyperlink and \hypertarget not working with accented characters

[Zdenek Wagner]

2011/11/2 Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd) :
>
>
> Zdenek Wagner wrote:
>>
>> 2011/11/2 Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd):
>
>> Adobe _does_ live in such era because tha last really portable reader
>> for all operating systems is version 3. Bugs reported by me in January
>> 2002 and April 2002 have not been fixed so far.
>>
>> PDF is based on PS and the string type requires 8bit characters.
>> Making such a dramatic change in the very hard of the format will make
>> old PDF's unreadable by new PDF readers.
>
> Don't follow that, Zdenek : the older PDFs will not change,
> will still contain US ASCII strings and so on, but a newer
> reader would be able to handle UTF- strings as
> well -- that was my thinking.
>
No, it won't be that easy. Syntax (string) in links is in
AdobeStandardEncoding and some of these characters are not valid in
UTF-8.

> ** Phil.
>
>
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Re: [XeTeX] Hyperref \hyperlink and \hypertarget not working with accented characters

[Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Zdenek Wagner wrote:

2011/11/2 Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd):



Adobe _does_ live in such era because tha last really portable reader
for all operating systems is version 3. Bugs reported by me in January
2002 and April 2002 have not been fixed so far.

PDF is based on PS and the string type requires 8bit characters.
Making such a dramatic change in the very hard of the format will make
old PDF's unreadable by new PDF readers.


Don't follow that, Zdenek : the older PDFs will not change,
will still contain US ASCII strings and so on, but a newer
reader would be able to handle UTF- strings as
well -- that was my thinking.

** Phil.


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Re: [XeTeX] Hyperref \hyperlink and \hypertarget not working with accented characters

[Zdenek Wagner]

2011/11/2 Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd) :
>
>
> Ross Moore wrote:
>
>> On 02/11/2011, at 10:40 AM, Andy Black wrote:
>>
    \hyperlink{rAsociación}{APLT (1988)}
>>
>> Don't use non-ASCII characters in the link.
>
> Oh dear, does PDF still live in the TeX 2 era ?  Surely /someone/ in
> Adobe is aware that there are character sets other than US English,
> and that those who write in such languages are perfectly entitled
> to wish to use them in links, whether or not such text ever appears
> on-screen ?
>
Adobe _does_ live in such era because tha last really portable reader
for all operating systems is version 3. Bugs reported by me in January
2002 and April 2002 have not been fixed so far.

PDF is based on PS and the string type requires 8bit characters.
Making such a dramatic change in the very hard of the format will make
old PDF's unreadable by new PDF readers.

-- 
Zdeněk Wagner
http://hroch486.icpf.cas.cz/wagner/
http://icebearsoft.euweb.cz



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Re: [XeTeX] Hyperref \hyperlink and \hypertarget not working with accented characters

[Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd)]

Ross Moore wrote:


On 02/11/2011, at 10:40 AM, Andy Black wrote:


\hyperlink{rAsociación}{APLT (1988)}


Don't use non-ASCII characters in the link.


Oh dear, does PDF still live in the TeX 2 era ?  Surely /someone/ in
Adobe is aware that there are character sets other than US English,
and that those who write in such languages are perfectly entitled
to wish to use them in links, whether or not such text ever appears
on-screen ?

Philip Taylor


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Re: [XeTeX] Hyperref \hyperlink and \hypertarget not working with accented characters

[Zdenek Wagner]

2011/11/2 Ross Moore :
> Hello Andy,
>
> On 02/11/2011, at 10:40 AM, Andy Black wrote:
>
>> I have not heard back from anyone on this issue.
>>
>> Has anyone else had success with hyperlinks that use accent characters in 
>> the link?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> --Andy
>>
>> On 9/2/2011 12:02 PM, Andy Black wrote:
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> I'm using XeTeX version 3.1415926-2.2-0.9997.4 (Web2C 2010) (format=xelatex 
>>> 2010.11.15) with hyperref  2010/10/30 v6.81t.
>
>>>    \hyperlink{rAsociación}{APLT (1988)}
>
> Don't use non-ASCII characters in the link.
>
> The link anchor is just a string that is used internally.
> It is never displayed in the PDF, so why risk running
> into encoding problems by using non-ASCII characters?
>
> PDF does not use UTF8 at all.
> You'll have to transform any UTF8 characters into a UTF16
> ASCII-HeX representation of the Unicode code-point,
> both in the destination-label and in any corresponding
> hyperlink target-labels that point at it.
>
I am not sure, I would have to look into the PDF manual but I think
that the link in PDF should be in AdobeStandardEncoding which is a
superset of ASCII (but 8-bit encoding, not UTF-8). If you wish a link
in HTML, the accented characters must be URL encoded.

>>>
>>> with
>>>
>>>    \hypertarget{rAsociación}{Asociación para la Promoción de 
>>> Lecto-Escritura Tlapaneca.  1988.  }
>>>
>>> then the hyperlink in the resulting PDF does not go to the target.  If I 
>>> replace the accented o with an unaccented o, then the hyperlink works fine.
>>>
>>> Do I need to do something special to get the hyperref package to produce 
>>> hyperlinks that work when there are non-A-Z characters?
>
> Hyperref gives the means to do this, using  \pdfstringdef .
>
> But since this label is only used internally, you might as well
> save your self some trouble, and (La)TeX some processing time,
> by just using ASCII letters for such things.
>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> --Andy
>
>
> Hope this helps,
>
>        Ross
>
> 
> Ross Moore                                       ross.mo...@mq.edu.au
> Mathematics Department                           office: E7A-419
> Macquarie University                             tel: +61 (0)2 9850 8955
> Sydney, Australia  2109                          fax: +61 (0)2 9850 8114
> 
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [XeTeX] Hyperref \hyperlink and \hypertarget not working with accented characters

[Ross Moore]

Hello Andy,

On 02/11/2011, at 10:40 AM, Andy Black wrote:

> I have not heard back from anyone on this issue.
> 
> Has anyone else had success with hyperlinks that use accent characters in the 
> link?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> --Andy
> 
> On 9/2/2011 12:02 PM, Andy Black wrote:
>> Hello,
>> 
>> I'm using XeTeX version 3.1415926-2.2-0.9997.4 (Web2C 2010) (format=xelatex 
>> 2010.11.15) with hyperref  2010/10/30 v6.81t.

>>\hyperlink{rAsociación}{APLT (1988)}

Don't use non-ASCII characters in the link.

The link anchor is just a string that is used internally.
It is never displayed in the PDF, so why risk running
into encoding problems by using non-ASCII characters?

PDF does not use UTF8 at all. 
You'll have to transform any UTF8 characters into a UTF16 
ASCII-HeX representation of the Unicode code-point,
both in the destination-label and in any corresponding
hyperlink target-labels that point at it.

>> 
>> with
>> 
>>\hypertarget{rAsociación}{Asociación para la Promoción de Lecto-Escritura 
>> Tlapaneca.  1988.  }
>> 
>> then the hyperlink in the resulting PDF does not go to the target.  If I 
>> replace the accented o with an unaccented o, then the hyperlink works fine.
>> 
>> Do I need to do something special to get the hyperref package to produce 
>> hyperlinks that work when there are non-A-Z characters?

Hyperref gives the means to do this, using  \pdfstringdef .

But since this label is only used internally, you might as well
save your self some trouble, and (La)TeX some processing time,
by just using ASCII letters for such things.

>> 
>> Thanks,
>> 
>> --Andy


Hope this helps,

Ross


Ross Moore   ross.mo...@mq.edu.au 
Mathematics Department   office: E7A-419  
Macquarie University tel: +61 (0)2 9850 8955
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Re: [XeTeX] Hyperref \hyperlink and \hypertarget not working with accented characters

[Andy Black]

I have not heard back from anyone on this issue.

Has anyone else had success with hyperlinks that use accent characters 
in the link?


Thanks,

--Andy

On 9/2/2011 12:02 PM, Andy Black wrote:

Hello,

I'm using XeTeX version 3.1415926-2.2-0.9997.4 (Web2C 2010) 
(format=xelatex 2010.11.15) with hyperref  2010/10/30 v6.81t.


I invoke the \hyperref package like this:

\usepackage{hyperref}
\hypersetup{colorlinks=true, citecolor=black, filecolor=black, 
linkcolor=black, urlcolor=blue, bookmarksopen=true}


If I use something like

\hyperlink{rAsociación}{APLT (1988)}

with

\hypertarget{rAsociación}{Asociación para la Promoción de 
Lecto-Escritura Tlapaneca.  1988.  }


then the hyperlink in the resulting PDF does not go to the target.  If 
I replace the accented o with an unaccented o, then the hyperlink 
works fine.


Do I need to do something special to get the hyperref package to 
produce hyperlinks that work when there are non-A-Z characters?


Thanks,

--Andy



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[XeTeX] Hyperref \hyperlink and \hypertarget not working with accented characters

[Andy Black]

Hello,

I'm using XeTeX version 3.1415926-2.2-0.9997.4 (Web2C 2010) 
(format=xelatex 2010.11.15) with hyperref  2010/10/30 v6.81t.


I invoke the \hyperref package like this:

\usepackage{hyperref}
\hypersetup{colorlinks=true, citecolor=black, filecolor=black, 
linkcolor=black, urlcolor=blue, bookmarksopen=true}


If I use something like

\hyperlink{rAsociación}{APLT (1988)}

with

\hypertarget{rAsociación}{Asociación para la Promoción de 
Lecto-Escritura Tlapaneca.  1988.  }


then the hyperlink in the resulting PDF does not go to the target.  If I 
replace the accented o with an unaccented o, then the hyperlink works fine.


Do I need to do something special to get the hyperref package to produce 
hyperlinks that work when there are non-A-Z characters?


Thanks,

--Andy



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