Re: [EDIT] Why do I need mouse acceleration to move windows and click buttons?
On 26 Feb 2009, Dirk uttered the following: > I don't think I'll make them stop developing HAL. I'm sorry, Dirk, I'm afraid we can't do that. (because *someone* had to say it) ___ xorg mailing list xorg@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg
Re: [EDIT] Why do I need mouse acceleration to move windows and?click buttons?
On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 05:56:33PM +, Bill Crawford wrote: > On Thursday 26 February 2009 18:13:01 Dirk wrote: > > Well, then you haven't had it re-enabling itself over and over again to > > interfere with your games, yet. > > > > Xavier Bestel wrote: > > > On Thu, 2009-02-26 at 18:58 +0100, Dirk wrote: > > >> People who believe they need an accelerated pointer to click buttons or > > >> move windows are not bright enough to realize the absence of > > >> acceleration anyways. > > > > > > Sorry for not being bright enough for you, but I do enjoy acceleration. > > > > > > Xav > > a) you probably need to disable the acceleration in whatever preferences > utility > your window manager / desktop environment provide > > b) guys, there *are* cases where a hi-res mouse pretty much obviates "pointer > acceleration" and mocking someone for wanting to turn it off is ... puerile. > > In fact, what's probably needed is the ability to *decelerate* the thing when > you want to position something accurately ... :) see AdaptiveDeceleration (or ConstantDeceleration), added in server 1.6 http://wiki.x.org/wiki/Development/Documentation/PointerAcceleration Cheers, Peter ___ xorg mailing list xorg@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg
Re: [EDIT] Why do I need mouse acceleration to move windows and click buttons?
Dirk wrote: > I was referring to reading /many/ manuals as a relic of the nineties. Oh, I got that, I just used it as a starter :) > > I'll try this on another machine as soon as it is in debian/unstable (if > not already)... It would be great it this works and can't be overriden > by anything. If you set the none scheme, no acceleration will happen as long as the device stays plugged. (you can't switch schemes live, only profiles). For gaming, you might want to check out adaptive deceleration. Though then you'd first need to kill whatever tweaks your acceleration. I know of no such bug in xorg. ___ xorg mailing list xorg@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg
Re: [EDIT] Why do I need mouse acceleration to move windows and click buttons?
Ben Gamari wrote: > because you might need your mouse to move exactly 2.3442 pixels per > millimeter doesn't mean that the rest of the world does as well. "there is no need for more than 640k RAM" ___ xorg mailing list xorg@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg
Re: [EDIT] Why do I need mouse acceleration to move windows and click buttons?
On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 02:07:25PM -0500, Ben Gamari wrote: > If you have a problem with HAL, report a bug. Uninstalling isn't the > answer. It is an increasingly common dependency on the desktop and for > good reason. I don't think there exists even one good reason for HAL to be a common dependency. -- Lukáš Hejtmánek ___ xorg mailing list xorg@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg
Re: [EDIT] Why do I need mouse acceleration to move windows and click buttons?
Simon Thum wrote: > Dirk wrote: >> Well I had read the xset manual but it kept re-enabling itself. > I'd say it was re-enabled by something else. Probably your desktop > environment. Yet, to Xorg, a notable difference. If even happens in fvwm1... >> I didn't know I had to read /many/ manuals to permanently disable mouse >> acceleration in Linux... but then again I thought the nineties were over... > Well, in fact the mouse acceleration (or deceleration, for that matter) > isn't a relic of the nineties any more. I was referring to reading /many/ manuals as a relic of the nineties. > Especially fast-paced games > could as well profit from it, since it combines precision and speed in a > manner high-DPI alone can't, period. It's 1.6rc/git only, though. > > Anyway, you can switch it so off it won't even consume CPU cycles, nor > be re-enabled through rampant desktop engines, which is probably crucial: > > > type="string">none > > I'll try this on another machine as soon as it is in debian/unstable (if not already)... It would be great it this works and can't be overriden by anything. Thanks. ___ xorg mailing list xorg@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg
Re: [EDIT] Why do I need mouse acceleration to move windows and click buttons?
Ben Gamari wrote: > On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 12:58 PM, Dirk wrote: >> Well... the thing I tried to explain is that I (and other people) don't want >> to /have/ to give a f***... >> >> 1) I plug in 2000 dpi mouse >> 2) I move mouse 1 inch horizontally and/or vertically >> 3) pointer moves 2000 pixels horizontally and/or vertically >> >> NO MATTER HOW FAST I MOVE THE MOUSE >> >> >> that really is all that one cares about when he wants to use Linux for >> gaming. PRECISION! Not useless Desktop features that interfere and make one >> seriously freak out during an important match. > I think you really hit the nail on the head here: "when he wants to > use Linux for gaming." I think it's great that you use Linux as a > gamer but you must realize that you are a minuscule minority. Just > because you might need your mouse to move exactly 2.3442 pixels per > millimeter doesn't mean that the rest of the world does as well. And that's it? >> You could completely remove mouse acceleration from the codebase and >> increase the quality of Linux as a gaming system. > We could and it might even improve the quality of Linux as a gaming > system but the overall experience for most users would suffer > tremendously. Pointer acceleration is a crucial part of the input > system, especially as screen sizes increase. >> People who believe they need an accelerated pointer to click buttons or move >> windows are not bright enough to realize the absence of acceleration >> anyways. > That's just not true. Try using a laptop touchpad or pointing stick > with infinite acceleration. You'll quickly give up in frustration. I > even find that a standard mouse is unusable without acceleration. It's > simply not possible to get both fine control and move across the > screen at a reasonable rate. > >> I know Windows has mouse acceleration too... but just because they call it a >> feature it shouldn't be part of a Linux Desktop and enable itself, randomly, >> over and over again. > Exactly, the problem you are experiencing is not that we implement > pointer acceleration; it's that it is repeatedly enabled against your > wishes. Perhaps you should investigate why. I did... I can't find the reason why it keeps getting enabled again. End of story. >> Right now I run a script that calls xset 30 times a minute with sleeps as a >> cronjob to make sure it stays disabled. >> >> Before, I even sent my mouse back to the manufacturer because I thought it >> was broken before I realized it was a problem with Linux so I guess I /am/ a >> little annoyed. >> >> Not as much as i (e.g.) was before i uninstalled HAL to get control over my >> Linux back. But still... > If you have a problem with HAL, report a bug. Uninstalling isn't the > answer. It is an increasingly common dependency on the desktop and for > good reason. I don't think I'll make them stop developing HAL. Because that would be the only thinkable solution for my problem with it and it's tendencies to steal the sovereignty over the operating system from the user. Sovereignty which made me once switch to Linux. HAL did cost me quite a few CD-R before I realized to make it stop trying to mounting the media while I was burning by de-installing it. That should be all I have to say about it. As long as I can do what I want without HAL interfering, Linux remains my favourite option. ___ xorg mailing list xorg@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg
Re: [EDIT] Why do I need mouse acceleration to move windows and click buttons?
Dirk wrote: > Well I had read the xset manual but it kept re-enabling itself. I'd say it was re-enabled by something else. Probably your desktop environment. Yet, to Xorg, a notable difference. > I didn't know I had to read /many/ manuals to permanently disable mouse > acceleration in Linux... but then again I thought the nineties were over... Well, in fact the mouse acceleration (or deceleration, for that matter) isn't a relic of the nineties any more. Especially fast-paced games could as well profit from it, since it combines precision and speed in a manner high-DPI alone can't, period. It's 1.6rc/git only, though. Anyway, you can switch it so off it won't even consume CPU cycles, nor be re-enabled through rampant desktop engines, which is probably crucial: none ___ xorg mailing list xorg@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg
Re: [EDIT] Why do I need mouse acceleration to move windows and click buttons?
On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 12:58 PM, Dirk wrote: > Well... the thing I tried to explain is that I (and other people) don't want > to /have/ to give a f***... > > 1) I plug in 2000 dpi mouse > 2) I move mouse 1 inch horizontally and/or vertically > 3) pointer moves 2000 pixels horizontally and/or vertically > > NO MATTER HOW FAST I MOVE THE MOUSE > > > that really is all that one cares about when he wants to use Linux for > gaming. PRECISION! Not useless Desktop features that interfere and make one > seriously freak out during an important match. I think you really hit the nail on the head here: "when he wants to use Linux for gaming." I think it's great that you use Linux as a gamer but you must realize that you are a minuscule minority. Just because you might need your mouse to move exactly 2.3442 pixels per millimeter doesn't mean that the rest of the world does as well. > > You could completely remove mouse acceleration from the codebase and > increase the quality of Linux as a gaming system. We could and it might even improve the quality of Linux as a gaming system but the overall experience for most users would suffer tremendously. Pointer acceleration is a crucial part of the input system, especially as screen sizes increase. > > People who believe they need an accelerated pointer to click buttons or move > windows are not bright enough to realize the absence of acceleration > anyways. That's just not true. Try using a laptop touchpad or pointing stick with infinite acceleration. You'll quickly give up in frustration. I even find that a standard mouse is unusable without acceleration. It's simply not possible to get both fine control and move across the screen at a reasonable rate. > > I know Windows has mouse acceleration too... but just because they call it a > feature it shouldn't be part of a Linux Desktop and enable itself, randomly, > over and over again. Exactly, the problem you are experiencing is not that we implement pointer acceleration; it's that it is repeatedly enabled against your wishes. Perhaps you should investigate why. > > Right now I run a script that calls xset 30 times a minute with sleeps as a > cronjob to make sure it stays disabled. > > Before, I even sent my mouse back to the manufacturer because I thought it > was broken before I realized it was a problem with Linux so I guess I /am/ a > little annoyed. > > Not as much as i (e.g.) was before i uninstalled HAL to get control over my > Linux back. But still... If you have a problem with HAL, report a bug. Uninstalling isn't the answer. It is an increasingly common dependency on the desktop and for good reason. > > I'll check out > http://www.x.org/wiki/Development/Documentation/PointerAcceleration > > Thanks. > > > > ___ xorg mailing list xorg@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg
Re: [EDIT] Why do I need mouse acceleration to move windows and click buttons?
On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 06:58:58PM +0100, Dirk wrote: > Right now I run a script that calls xset 30 times a minute with sleeps > as a cronjob to make sure it stays disabled. Why not jsut disable mouse accel in desktop environment preferences to not have gnome-settings-daemon¹ reseting it? ¹ or equivalent daemon of other DEs -- Tomasz TorczTo co nierealne -- tutaj jest normalne. xmpp: zdzich...@chrome.pl Ziomale na życie mają tu patenty specjalne. pgpvejuwP3oJX.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ xorg mailing list xorg@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg
Re: [EDIT] Why do I need mouse acceleration to move windows and click buttons?
Corbin Simpson wrote: > Dirk wrote: The bottom sticker of my mouse says 2000 DPI... so I want to move the pointer 2000 pixels when i move the mouse an inch... NO MATTER HOW FAST I MOVE THE MOUSE. >>> These are device pixels, not screen pixels. I really hope you didn't >>> need me to explain this. >> >> Well... the thing I tried to explain is that I (and other people) don't >> want to /have/ to give a f***... >> >> 1) I plug in 2000 dpi mouse >> 2) I move mouse 1 inch horizontally and/or vertically >> 3) pointer moves 2000 pixels horizontally and/or vertically >> >> NO MATTER HOW FAST I MOVE THE MOUSE >> >> >> that really is all that one cares about when he wants to use Linux for >> gaming. PRECISION! Not useless Desktop features that interfere and make >> one seriously freak out during an important match. >> >> You could completely remove mouse acceleration from the codebase and >> increase the quality of Linux as a gaming system. >> >> People who believe they need an accelerated pointer to click buttons or >> move windows are not bright enough to realize the absence of >> acceleration anyways. >> >> I know Windows has mouse acceleration too... but just because they call >> it a feature it shouldn't be part of a Linux Desktop and enable itself, >> randomly, over and over again. >> >> Right now I run a script that calls xset 30 times a minute with sleeps >> as a cronjob to make sure it stays disabled. >> >> Before, I even sent my mouse back to the manufacturer because I thought >> it was broken before I realized it was a problem with Linux so I guess I >> /am/ a little annoyed. >> >> Not as much as i (e.g.) was before i uninstalled HAL to get control over >> my Linux back. But still... >> >> I'll check out >> http://www.x.org/wiki/Development/Documentation/PointerAcceleration >> >> Thanks. > > You wrote up this entire flame before reading the manual? > http://xkcd.com/293 comes to mind. > > Additionally, acceleration's presence can always be made negligible by > changing the rate of acceleration. (Ah, the joys of calculus.) It's > definitely an enhancement, not a feature. > > ~ C. > ___ > xorg mailing list > xorg@lists.freedesktop.org > http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg > Well I had read the xset manual but it kept re-enabling itself. I didn't know I had to read /many/ manuals to permanently disable mouse acceleration in Linux... but then again I thought the nineties were over... ___ xorg mailing list xorg@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg
Re: [EDIT] Why do I need mouse acceleration to move windows and click buttons?
Dirk wrote: >>> The bottom sticker of my mouse says 2000 DPI... so I want to move the >>> pointer 2000 pixels when i move the mouse an inch... NO MATTER HOW FAST I >>> MOVE THE MOUSE. >> These are device pixels, not screen pixels. I really hope you didn't >> need me to explain this. > > > Well... the thing I tried to explain is that I (and other people) don't > want to /have/ to give a f***... > > 1) I plug in 2000 dpi mouse > 2) I move mouse 1 inch horizontally and/or vertically > 3) pointer moves 2000 pixels horizontally and/or vertically > > NO MATTER HOW FAST I MOVE THE MOUSE > > > that really is all that one cares about when he wants to use Linux for > gaming. PRECISION! Not useless Desktop features that interfere and make > one seriously freak out during an important match. > > You could completely remove mouse acceleration from the codebase and > increase the quality of Linux as a gaming system. > > People who believe they need an accelerated pointer to click buttons or > move windows are not bright enough to realize the absence of > acceleration anyways. > > I know Windows has mouse acceleration too... but just because they call > it a feature it shouldn't be part of a Linux Desktop and enable itself, > randomly, over and over again. > > Right now I run a script that calls xset 30 times a minute with sleeps > as a cronjob to make sure it stays disabled. > > Before, I even sent my mouse back to the manufacturer because I thought > it was broken before I realized it was a problem with Linux so I guess I > /am/ a little annoyed. > > Not as much as i (e.g.) was before i uninstalled HAL to get control over > my Linux back. But still... > > I'll check out > http://www.x.org/wiki/Development/Documentation/PointerAcceleration > > Thanks. You wrote up this entire flame before reading the manual? http://xkcd.com/293 comes to mind. Additionally, acceleration's presence can always be made negligible by changing the rate of acceleration. (Ah, the joys of calculus.) It's definitely an enhancement, not a feature. ~ C. ___ xorg mailing list xorg@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg
Re: [EDIT] Why do I need mouse acceleration to move windows and click buttons?
On Thursday 26 February 2009 18:13:01 Dirk wrote: > Well, then you haven't had it re-enabling itself over and over again to > interfere with your games, yet. > > Xavier Bestel wrote: > > On Thu, 2009-02-26 at 18:58 +0100, Dirk wrote: > >> People who believe they need an accelerated pointer to click buttons or > >> move windows are not bright enough to realize the absence of > >> acceleration anyways. > > > > Sorry for not being bright enough for you, but I do enjoy acceleration. > > > > Xav a) you probably need to disable the acceleration in whatever preferences utility your window manager / desktop environment provide b) guys, there *are* cases where a hi-res mouse pretty much obviates "pointer acceleration" and mocking someone for wanting to turn it off is ... puerile. In fact, what's probably needed is the ability to *decelerate* the thing when you want to position something accurately ... :) ___ xorg mailing list xorg@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg
Re: [EDIT] Why do I need mouse acceleration to move windows and click buttons?
Well, then you haven't had it re-enabling itself over and over again to interfere with your games, yet. Xavier Bestel wrote: > On Thu, 2009-02-26 at 18:58 +0100, Dirk wrote: >> People who believe they need an accelerated pointer to click buttons or >> move windows are not bright enough to realize the absence of >> acceleration anyways. > > Sorry for not being bright enough for you, but I do enjoy acceleration. > > Xav > > > ___ > xorg mailing list > xorg@lists.freedesktop.org > http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg > ___ xorg mailing list xorg@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg
Re: [EDIT] Why do I need mouse acceleration to move windows and click buttons?
On Thu, 2009-02-26 at 18:58 +0100, Dirk wrote: > People who believe they need an accelerated pointer to click buttons or > move windows are not bright enough to realize the absence of > acceleration anyways. Sorry for not being bright enough for you, but I do enjoy acceleration. Xav ___ xorg mailing list xorg@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg
Re: [EDIT] Why do I need mouse acceleration to move windows and click buttons?
>> The bottom sticker of my mouse says 2000 DPI... so I want to move the >> pointer 2000 pixels when i move the mouse an inch... NO MATTER HOW FAST I >> MOVE THE MOUSE. > These are device pixels, not screen pixels. I really hope you didn't > need me to explain this. Well... the thing I tried to explain is that I (and other people) don't want to /have/ to give a f***... 1) I plug in 2000 dpi mouse 2) I move mouse 1 inch horizontally and/or vertically 3) pointer moves 2000 pixels horizontally and/or vertically NO MATTER HOW FAST I MOVE THE MOUSE that really is all that one cares about when he wants to use Linux for gaming. PRECISION! Not useless Desktop features that interfere and make one seriously freak out during an important match. You could completely remove mouse acceleration from the codebase and increase the quality of Linux as a gaming system. People who believe they need an accelerated pointer to click buttons or move windows are not bright enough to realize the absence of acceleration anyways. I know Windows has mouse acceleration too... but just because they call it a feature it shouldn't be part of a Linux Desktop and enable itself, randomly, over and over again. Right now I run a script that calls xset 30 times a minute with sleeps as a cronjob to make sure it stays disabled. Before, I even sent my mouse back to the manufacturer because I thought it was broken before I realized it was a problem with Linux so I guess I /am/ a little annoyed. Not as much as i (e.g.) was before i uninstalled HAL to get control over my Linux back. But still... I'll check out http://www.x.org/wiki/Development/Documentation/PointerAcceleration Thanks. ___ xorg mailing list xorg@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg
Re: [EDIT] Why do I need mouse acceleration to move windows and click buttons?
On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 12:16 PM, Dirk wrote: > Are you f&^$ing kidding me? :O No, I'm not. It's a perfectly valid question. > > By "disable" I mean I want "NO" mouse acceleration... With no mouse acceleration your cursor wouldn't move. Recall that acceleration is the second time derivative of position. I shouldn't have to say any more. > How can you have > missunderstood that except someone took a dump in your brain? I'm going to try to ignore this. I'll give you a hint: comments like this don't make me any more likely to give you the answer you're looking for. > > The bottom sticker of my mouse says 2000 DPI... so I want to move the > pointer 2000 pixels when i move the mouse an inch... NO MATTER HOW FAST I > MOVE THE MOUSE. These are device pixels, not screen pixels. I really hope you didn't need me to explain this. > > Why isn't that possible? It is, you simply need to be willing to be civil. Lucky for you, Xorg recently had an excellent rework of its pointer motion code merged. You can find this documented at http://www.x.org/wiki/Development/Documentation/PointerAcceleration. It sounds like you want the AccelerationScheme=None option. > > > Dirk > > > Ben Gamari wrote: >> >> What do you mean by "disable" mouse acceleration? Do you mean you want >> infinite acceleration (move X input device units translates the cursor >> a*X screen units)? >> >> - Ben >> >> >> On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 11:44 AM, Dirk wrote: >>> >>> Hello, >>> >>> Why is it impossible to permanently disable Mouse acceleration? >>> >>> I run xorg with KDE, Gnome and fvwm1... and use xset to disable it but >>> the Mouse acceleration gets enabled again and again by some process... >>> Not just on my machine... >>> >>> This turns Linux into a lousy choice for competetive gaming. >>> >>> Do I really have to compile xorg myself to make sure mouse acceleration >>> is disabled and STAYS disabled? >>> >>> Why do I need Mouse acceleration to move windows and click buttons >>> anyways? >>> >>> I would really like to have an option in xorg.conf that would disable >>> this permanently(!)... >>> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Dirk >>> ___ >>> xorg mailing list >>> xorg@lists.freedesktop.org >>> http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg >>> >> > > > ___ xorg mailing list xorg@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg
