Re: [ydl-gen] Slow ibook X11 (2D)
Hi Stephen, I downloaded R for OS X (RAqua) and am impressed. It seems quite powerful and the Mac implementation is very nice. It could use some GUI based tools for manipulating graphics (for example, clicking on a label to move it or change its font, etc.) It reminds me a little of the APL language, which is cryptic but extraordinarily elegant and has a similar approach to arrays. Cheers, wn On Jan 31, 2009, at 7:01 PM, Stephen Harker wrote: > Hi Derick and Warren, > > On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 05:29:55PM -0800, Warren Nagourney wrote: >> Thanks, Derick. I will look into R. > > I have been very satisfied with R for many purposes. On the question > of other, useful, packages there was a recent article in > http://slashdot.org/ on a similar issue. This was titled: Open Source > Software For Experimental Physics? and is given at this url. > > http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/01/30/1443203 > > You may be aware of the thread resulting from this article and/or the > programs that were recommended by different people. If not, it could > be worth looking into to see if there is something useful to you > listed. I would expect that several would run under OSX as well as > Linux. > > -- > Stephen Harker s.har...@adfa.edu.au > PEMS > u...@adfa > ___ > yellowdog-general mailing list > yellowdog-general@lists.fixstars.com > http://lists.fixstars.com/mailman/listinfo/yellowdog-general > HINT: to Google archives, try ' > site:terrasoftsolutions.com' ___ yellowdog-general mailing list yellowdog-general@lists.fixstars.com http://lists.fixstars.com/mailman/listinfo/yellowdog-general HINT: to Google archives, try ' site:terrasoftsolutions.com'
Re: [ydl-gen] Slow ibook X11 (2D)
Greets On Feb 2, 2009, at 12:10 PM, Warren Nagourney wrote: > Thanks, Atro for the correction. Yes, the NeXtstations used 33 MHz and > 25 MHz 68040 CPUs. I think NeXT was pondering porting NeXTstep to the > (then) new Motorola 88k RISC chip, but it was never ported to the PPC > (until OSX, of course). Actually NextSTEP was ported to the RS/6000 (Power2 IIRC) back in around '91, '92. This was in the days of NeXTSTEP 2. It never saw the light of day but it was working. During the NeXTWorld user auction in May of '93 I even bid on a set of the manuals for this version of NeXTSTEP. They went for like $800+. Don't forget the original cubes which with 25Mhz 68030s. I have a couple... alas the display cable is missing otherwise I'd see if they might still power on. Always loved their funky adb keyboards. > The NeXT machines were marvelous but a bit overpriced, in my opinion. > I managed to get a "slab" (NeXTstation, 33 Mhz '040) and a cube (25 > MHz '040) when I retired. I always found it amazing that the OS was > so responsive - with a megapixel (16 bit) color display, opaque window > moves were smooth for small windows and not too bad for large windows > (better than my 1.5 GHz G4 without acceleration!) This is with no > video hardware! The OS ran fine with 40 megs of RAM and a 600 meg hard > disk was considered very capacious.. > > I actually prefer the look and feel of NeXTstep to OSX and even the > Project Builder and Interface Builder development apps were, in my > opinion, better than their current progeny (Xcode). I coded my DAQ > stuff in the assembly language of the DSP and it acquired data faster > than the fancy National Instrument boards on current machines (and > less buggy than NI stuff on the Mac). > > Those were the days... :-) Regards, Tom ___ yellowdog-general mailing list yellowdog-general@lists.fixstars.com http://lists.fixstars.com/mailman/listinfo/yellowdog-general HINT: to Google archives, try ' site:terrasoftsolutions.com'
Re: [ydl-gen] Slow ibook X11 (2D)
Thanks, Atro for the correction. Yes, the NeXtstations used 33 MHz and 25 MHz 68040 CPUs. I think NeXT was pondering porting NeXTstep to the (then) new Motorola 88k RISC chip, but it was never ported to the PPC (until OSX, of course). The NeXT machines were marvelous but a bit overpriced, in my opinion. I managed to get a "slab" (NeXTstation, 33 Mhz '040) and a cube (25 MHz '040) when I retired. I always found it amazing that the OS was so responsive - with a megapixel (16 bit) color display, opaque window moves were smooth for small windows and not too bad for large windows (better than my 1.5 GHz G4 without acceleration!) This is with no video hardware! The OS ran fine with 40 megs of RAM and a 600 meg hard disk was considered very capacious.. I actually prefer the look and feel of NeXTstep to OSX and even the Project Builder and Interface Builder development apps were, in my opinion, better than their current progeny (Xcode). I coded my DAQ stuff in the assembly language of the DSP and it acquired data faster than the fancy National Instrument boards on current machines (and less buggy than NI stuff on the Mac). Those were the days... cheers, wn On Feb 2, 2009, at 5:15 AM, Atro Tossavainen wrote: > Derick, > >> It's funny that the Nextstation was built around the PPC, which >> Jobs - >> the same fellow who started Next walked away from when he came back >> to >> Apple. > > Er, no! The NeXTs were based on the 68k. They predated PPC by > several > years (the first NeXT machine was released in 1988, PowerPC started > shipping in 1990, and Apple released their first PowerPC based > machines > in 1994). > > NeXTstep, the OS, existed for x86, 68k, HP PA-RISC and SPARC. > > NeXT and PowerPC never met if I understand correctly. > > I admined a researcher's NeXTstation way back when, and this person > was > making exactly the same points as Warren for not moving onto PCs for a > *very* long time. I think he only gave up when the hardware did. I > also > upgraded the box from 16M to 32M (a no-brainer) and from a 400M > original > HD to a multi-gigabyte one (which took considerably more effort) :-) > > -- > Atro Tossavainen (Mr.) / The Institute of > Biotechnology at > Systems Analyst, Techno-Amish & / the University of Helsinki, > Finland, > +358-9-19158939 UNIX Dinosaur / employs me, but my opinions are > my own. > < URL : http : / / www . helsinki . fi / %7E atossava / > NO FILE > ATTACHMENTS > ___ > yellowdog-general mailing list > yellowdog-general@lists.fixstars.com > http://lists.fixstars.com/mailman/listinfo/yellowdog-general > HINT: to Google archives, try ' > site:terrasoftsolutions.com' ___ yellowdog-general mailing list yellowdog-general@lists.fixstars.com http://lists.fixstars.com/mailman/listinfo/yellowdog-general HINT: to Google archives, try ' site:terrasoftsolutions.com'
Re: [ydl-gen] Slow ibook X11 (2D)
Derick, > It's funny that the Nextstation was built around the PPC, which Jobs - > the same fellow who started Next walked away from when he came back to > Apple. Er, no! The NeXTs were based on the 68k. They predated PPC by several years (the first NeXT machine was released in 1988, PowerPC started shipping in 1990, and Apple released their first PowerPC based machines in 1994). NeXTstep, the OS, existed for x86, 68k, HP PA-RISC and SPARC. NeXT and PowerPC never met if I understand correctly. I admined a researcher's NeXTstation way back when, and this person was making exactly the same points as Warren for not moving onto PCs for a *very* long time. I think he only gave up when the hardware did. I also upgraded the box from 16M to 32M (a no-brainer) and from a 400M original HD to a multi-gigabyte one (which took considerably more effort) :-) -- Atro Tossavainen (Mr.) / The Institute of Biotechnology at Systems Analyst, Techno-Amish & / the University of Helsinki, Finland, +358-9-19158939 UNIX Dinosaur / employs me, but my opinions are my own. < URL : http : / / www . helsinki . fi / %7E atossava / > NO FILE ATTACHMENTS ___ yellowdog-general mailing list yellowdog-general@lists.fixstars.com http://lists.fixstars.com/mailman/listinfo/yellowdog-general HINT: to Google archives, try ' site:terrasoftsolutions.com'
Re: [ydl-gen] Slow ibook X11 (2D)
Hi Warren: It's funny that the Nextstation was built around the PPC, which Jobs - the same fellow who started Next walked away from when he came back to Apple. I'm sure that decision was based on a business reality which made sense to Jobs at the time. In any case, when it comes to scientific analysis the market in my opinion has moved backwards for the sake of being "penny wise and dollar foolish" and the rest of us are paying for it in that we have to do more work to build software and acquire hardware which meet modern processing and environmental friendly requirements. When power consumption or "green" considerations become a factor in the purchase again, Power based systems will be "rediscovered" again. Regarding software have you looked at Inkscape (http://www.inkscape.org/)? It's a vector based open source drawing editor. Warren Nagourney wrote: > Hi Stephen, > > Thanks for the link. It was an interesting discussion and brought > back memories of my extremely idiosyncratic approach to computers over > my 40 years as an experimental physicist. Before retiring (2 years > ago), I used NeXTstations (<$100 from University surplus) for my DAQ > and they were faster and better in many ways than modern machines with > 100x more CPU power, memory size and disk size. The built-in DSP and > very well-written and efficient OS helped. My last grad student didn't > like it since it was a one-off and didn't help him learn about NI > products (which I hated). > > While I am sure I could find an open source data analysis tool suite > to replace Igor, the business of doing accurate and convenient > drafting is not as easy. All of the inexpensive drawing apps lack the > precise and extremely easy to use "snap" features of the Ashlar > products. I find that using other products are very tiring - getting > lines to connect with some precision and frequently tiny annoying gaps > are revealed when printing. Claris CAD copied the Ashlar approach > (badly, in my opinion) and dropped the product when Ashlar brought out > the lawyers. Many drawing products have similar features, but none are > very convenient, in my experience. > > Cheers, > > Warren Nagourney > > On Jan 31, 2009, at 7:01 PM, Stephen Harker wrote: > > >> Hi Derick and Warren, >> >> On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 05:29:55PM -0800, Warren Nagourney wrote: >> >>> Thanks, Derick. I will look into R. >>> >> I have been very satisfied with R for many purposes. On the question >> of other, useful, packages there was a recent article in >> http://slashdot.org/ on a similar issue. This was titled: Open Source >> Software For Experimental Physics? and is given at this url. >> >> http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/01/30/1443203 >> >> You may be aware of the thread resulting from this article and/or the >> programs that were recommended by different people. If not, it could >> be worth looking into to see if there is something useful to you >> listed. I would expect that several would run under OSX as well as >> Linux. >> >> -- >> Stephen Harker s.har...@adfa.edu.au >> PEMS >> u...@adfa >> ___ >> yellowdog-general mailing list >> yellowdog-general@lists.fixstars.com >> http://lists.fixstars.com/mailman/listinfo/yellowdog-general >> HINT: to Google archives, try ' >> site:terrasoftsolutions.com' >> > > ___ > yellowdog-general mailing list > yellowdog-general@lists.fixstars.com > http://lists.fixstars.com/mailman/listinfo/yellowdog-general > HINT: to Google archives, try ' site:terrasoftsolutions.com' > > signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ yellowdog-general mailing list yellowdog-general@lists.fixstars.com http://lists.fixstars.com/mailman/listinfo/yellowdog-general HINT: to Google archives, try ' site:terrasoftsolutions.com'
Re: [ydl-gen] Slow ibook X11 (2D)
Hi Stephen, Thanks for the link. It was an interesting discussion and brought back memories of my extremely idiosyncratic approach to computers over my 40 years as an experimental physicist. Before retiring (2 years ago), I used NeXTstations (<$100 from University surplus) for my DAQ and they were faster and better in many ways than modern machines with 100x more CPU power, memory size and disk size. The built-in DSP and very well-written and efficient OS helped. My last grad student didn't like it since it was a one-off and didn't help him learn about NI products (which I hated). While I am sure I could find an open source data analysis tool suite to replace Igor, the business of doing accurate and convenient drafting is not as easy. All of the inexpensive drawing apps lack the precise and extremely easy to use "snap" features of the Ashlar products. I find that using other products are very tiring - getting lines to connect with some precision and frequently tiny annoying gaps are revealed when printing. Claris CAD copied the Ashlar approach (badly, in my opinion) and dropped the product when Ashlar brought out the lawyers. Many drawing products have similar features, but none are very convenient, in my experience. Cheers, Warren Nagourney On Jan 31, 2009, at 7:01 PM, Stephen Harker wrote: > Hi Derick and Warren, > > On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 05:29:55PM -0800, Warren Nagourney wrote: >> Thanks, Derick. I will look into R. > > I have been very satisfied with R for many purposes. On the question > of other, useful, packages there was a recent article in > http://slashdot.org/ on a similar issue. This was titled: Open Source > Software For Experimental Physics? and is given at this url. > > http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/01/30/1443203 > > You may be aware of the thread resulting from this article and/or the > programs that were recommended by different people. If not, it could > be worth looking into to see if there is something useful to you > listed. I would expect that several would run under OSX as well as > Linux. > > -- > Stephen Harker s.har...@adfa.edu.au > PEMS > u...@adfa > ___ > yellowdog-general mailing list > yellowdog-general@lists.fixstars.com > http://lists.fixstars.com/mailman/listinfo/yellowdog-general > HINT: to Google archives, try ' > site:terrasoftsolutions.com' ___ yellowdog-general mailing list yellowdog-general@lists.fixstars.com http://lists.fixstars.com/mailman/listinfo/yellowdog-general HINT: to Google archives, try ' site:terrasoftsolutions.com'
Re: [ydl-gen] Slow ibook X11 (2D)
Hi Derick and Warren, On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 05:29:55PM -0800, Warren Nagourney wrote: > Thanks, Derick. I will look into R. I have been very satisfied with R for many purposes. On the question of other, useful, packages there was a recent article in http://slashdot.org/ on a similar issue. This was titled: Open Source Software For Experimental Physics? and is given at this url. http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/01/30/1443203 You may be aware of the thread resulting from this article and/or the programs that were recommended by different people. If not, it could be worth looking into to see if there is something useful to you listed. I would expect that several would run under OSX as well as Linux. -- Stephen Harker s.har...@adfa.edu.au PEMS u...@adfa ___ yellowdog-general mailing list yellowdog-general@lists.fixstars.com http://lists.fixstars.com/mailman/listinfo/yellowdog-general HINT: to Google archives, try ' site:terrasoftsolutions.com'
Re: [ydl-gen] Slow ibook X11 (2D)
Thanks, Derick. I will look into R. The holy grail for me (in addition to a ppc linux with accelerated graphics) over the last 15 years has been finding a replacement for Vellum (currently Graphite). I have tried Canvas, Bentley Microstation (when they supported the Mac), OmniGraffle, Illustrator and numerous other CAD and drawing programs. None of them came close to the brilliance of Vellum with its "drafting assistant" and other aspects of its user interface. My opinion of Ashlar cannot be expressed in polite society - they charge close to $1000 for a product that has not changed since it was released on a single 3.5" floppy for Mac OS 5 (the dialogue boxes are single bit-plane pre-OS 6!!). For Igor, I have tried Scilab, Octave/GnuPlot and several others. Although Igor doesn't have Vellum's brilliance, none of the replacements have been as easy to use or as complete. Perhaps I should continue my search. Wavemetrics is a much friendlier outfit that Ashlar and their prices are much more reasonable, but as a retiree, it would be nice to find a free alternative. Cheers, wn On Jan 22, 2009, at 4:37 PM, Derick Centeno wrote: > Warren, have you ever heard of R? I did sometime back and I've been > playing and using it within YDL. It's source is available here: > > http://www.r-project.org/ > > You may be able to do your work in R and drop Igor. R may be that > good. I compiled it sometime ago and it works fine. As far as cad is > concerned it may surprise you that there are a great deal of cad tools > within gimp which comes with YDL. > > I'm rather a bit of a Linux purist, especially where YDL is concerned. > And many tools are available if you know where to look and they are > free > as well. By the way, as you mentioned that you are writing a book you > are aware that Leopard was hacked under two minutes, right? Which > means > all your data in OS X might as well be given away. Briefly, OS X is > not > a secure system. Like you I've been working on complex systems from > PDP > 7 through Stratus and R/S 6000. Think carefully where you choose to > keep your data, that's an awful lot of work to give away for nothing. > > All the best... > > Warren Nagourney wrote: >> >> I am still using linux on my PS3. I have preserved the hacked video >> giving me good 2D acceleration. I plan to use the PS3 with Latex >> (using Kile) to write my book and link the PS3 with SAMBA or AFP to >> my >> iBook for other programs not available in Linux (Igor Pro and Ashlar >> Graphite are the expensive programs that I use and are not available >> in PPC linux). This way, I get the best of both worlds without >> investing in a new (Intel-based) computer. >> >> >> >>> Warren Nagourney wrote: I think that the PS3 community would have been willing to pay for accelerated video, though I don't know whether that would have made it profitable. I actually think that this misses the point. Apple did very well just after the Mac was introduced in 1984 by encouraging 3rd party software and helping build the enthusiasm for the platform. If Sony had opened up the GPU (at least provided drivers for linux), there could have been a small groundswell of enthusiasm for the machine which certainly would have also translated into the sale of games. I hate video games but many of the potential linux users don't feel this way and would have bought them. Right now, I have a bad taste in my mouth about Sony and to a smaller extent about the PS3. I will continue to use it as a platform for learning about the Cell, but much of my enthusiasm for the platform has been lost. The forums at ps2dev were buzzing with excitement after the "hack" was successful; recently the number of new posts is about one a week and most are about some peripheral, not the PS3. I simply don't see how the desktop experience for PPC linux on Macs can compare to that of OS X. The latter is a mature, fairly delightful system to use with lots of very good software available at reasonable prices (of for free). It is very fast right now with excellent ppc support (even Flash!!). Even on the x86 side, where the performance is not as much an issue (since x86 is supported), Linux is quite a bit behind OS X, in my opinion. This is too bad, since I strongly support the open software movement. Part of the problem is that the linux developers have been trying to emulate windows and this is not a very good paradigm, in my opinion. The rest might be the closed hardware and proliferation of different configurations which make linux difficult to administer. I do support the efforts of Fixstars in making a ppc and Cell linux available. Perhaps the Powerstation will aquire a Cell processor without a pri
Re: [ydl-gen] Slow ibook X11 (2D)
Warren, have you ever heard of R? I did sometime back and I've been playing and using it within YDL. It's source is available here: http://www.r-project.org/ You may be able to do your work in R and drop Igor. R may be that good. I compiled it sometime ago and it works fine. As far as cad is concerned it may surprise you that there are a great deal of cad tools within gimp which comes with YDL. I'm rather a bit of a Linux purist, especially where YDL is concerned. And many tools are available if you know where to look and they are free as well. By the way, as you mentioned that you are writing a book you are aware that Leopard was hacked under two minutes, right? Which means all your data in OS X might as well be given away. Briefly, OS X is not a secure system. Like you I've been working on complex systems from PDP 7 through Stratus and R/S 6000. Think carefully where you choose to keep your data, that's an awful lot of work to give away for nothing. All the best... Warren Nagourney wrote: > > I am still using linux on my PS3. I have preserved the hacked video > giving me good 2D acceleration. I plan to use the PS3 with Latex > (using Kile) to write my book and link the PS3 with SAMBA or AFP to my > iBook for other programs not available in Linux (Igor Pro and Ashlar > Graphite are the expensive programs that I use and are not available > in PPC linux). This way, I get the best of both worlds without > investing in a new (Intel-based) computer. > > > >> Warren Nagourney wrote: >>> I think that the PS3 community would have been willing to pay for >>> accelerated video, though I don't know whether that would have made it >>> profitable. I actually think that this misses the point. Apple did >>> very well just after the Mac was introduced in 1984 by encouraging 3rd >>> party software and helping build the enthusiasm for the platform. If >>> Sony had opened up the GPU (at least provided drivers for linux), >>> there could have been a small groundswell of enthusiasm for the >>> machine which certainly would have also translated into the sale of >>> games. I hate video games but many of the potential linux users don't >>> feel this way and would have bought them. >>> >>> Right now, I have a bad taste in my mouth about Sony and to a smaller >>> extent about the PS3. I will continue to use it as a platform for >>> learning about the Cell, but much of my enthusiasm for the platform >>> has been lost. The forums at ps2dev were buzzing with excitement >>> after the "hack" was successful; recently the number of new posts is >>> about one a week and most are about some peripheral, not the PS3. >>> >>> I simply don't see how the desktop experience for PPC linux on Macs >>> can compare to that of OS X. The latter is a mature, fairly delightful >>> system to use with lots of very good software available at reasonable >>> prices (of for free). It is very fast right now with excellent ppc >>> support (even Flash!!). Even on the x86 side, where the performance is >>> not as much an issue (since x86 is supported), Linux is quite a bit >>> behind OS X, in my opinion. This is too bad, since I strongly support >>> the open software movement. Part of the problem is that the linux >>> developers have been trying to emulate windows and this is not a very >>> good paradigm, in my opinion. The rest might be the closed hardware >>> and proliferation of different configurations which make linux >>> difficult to administer. >>> >>> I do support the efforts of Fixstars in making a ppc and Cell linux >>> available. Perhaps the Powerstation will aquire a Cell processor >>> without a price increase and can actually become a reasonable >>> competitor to the PS3 as a Cell platform. All of the others are much >>> too expensive for mass consumption, in my opinion. Eventually, Intel >>> will come up with a competitor - it will probably be technically >>> inferior but will be marketed well to the consumer, if history is any >>> guide. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> wn >>> >>> >>> On Jan 19, 2009, at 1:49 PM, Kai Staats wrote: >>> >>> > In my opinion, this will > never change with PPC hardware, which is a tiny niche of a small > niche. It would be nice if a PPC vendor like Fixstars could fix this, > but they would need serious cooperation from the GPU manufacturers > and that is likely not forthcoming (the PS3 linux disaster is a case > at point). > Yes, because PPC hardware is a relatively small player in the commodity, consumer world, there is less pressure and less reason for companies such as Apple to support Linux. But the inside story is that Apple was conflicted, for at one time (2000/2001) they had a Linux Technology Manager, full-time, with a small team at his disposal. But eventually, this position was terminated (as far as I know). Apple's shareholders want relig
Re: [ydl-gen] Slow ibook X11 (2D)
Hi Derick, I've noticed your comments along with everyone else's and it's pretty clear you aren't interested in server stuff or nearly any thing else other than your theme. What theme do you have in mind? My insistence on fast video? My interest in staying in the PPC "family"? My interest in exploiting the advantages of the Cell? My interest in Linux? You are certainly correct that I am interested in desktop linux and not in a server (in common with most readers of these forums, I believe). In any case Warren, you've been a gentleman about your complaints. So hopefully pointing out the link below will also help you find the tools which could help you get going. I believed it would interest you that Windowmaker is available for YDL via Fedora Extras. Believe it or not I found it via a link from Fixstars web pages, please don't blame Kai. He might have forgotten it was even available. In any case that Fixstars link points here: http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/fedora/linux/extras/5/ppc/ Thank you for the link, Derick. I am not blaming Kai for anything. When I first set up YDL on my PS3, I experimented quite a bit with other repositories. The problem is knowing which ones contain what software. I think Kai and Fixtars (formerly Terrasoft) have done a great job in making available a PPC-centric linux to those of us who prefer the architecture. I salute them for this. I have to think about it a bit, but perhaps you already know there should be a way to code yum so that it incorporates Fedora Extras into it's search and installation routines. When yum was simpler, the solution was easier. A little concentration never hurt anyone. If I figure something out I'll post it somewhere, unless of course you figure it out first. Then by all means I'm sure you'll post it in some thread we all can refer to. All the best... I am still using linux on my PS3. I have preserved the hacked video giving me good 2D acceleration. I plan to use the PS3 with Latex (using Kile) to write my book and link the PS3 with SAMBA or AFP to my iBook for other programs not available in Linux (Igor Pro and Ashlar Graphite are the expensive programs that I use and are not available in PPC linux). This way, I get the best of both worlds without investing in a new (Intel-based) computer. Warren Nagourney wrote: I think that the PS3 community would have been willing to pay for accelerated video, though I don't know whether that would have made it profitable. I actually think that this misses the point. Apple did very well just after the Mac was introduced in 1984 by encouraging 3rd party software and helping build the enthusiasm for the platform. If Sony had opened up the GPU (at least provided drivers for linux), there could have been a small groundswell of enthusiasm for the machine which certainly would have also translated into the sale of games. I hate video games but many of the potential linux users don't feel this way and would have bought them. Right now, I have a bad taste in my mouth about Sony and to a smaller extent about the PS3. I will continue to use it as a platform for learning about the Cell, but much of my enthusiasm for the platform has been lost. The forums at ps2dev were buzzing with excitement after the "hack" was successful; recently the number of new posts is about one a week and most are about some peripheral, not the PS3. I simply don't see how the desktop experience for PPC linux on Macs can compare to that of OS X. The latter is a mature, fairly delightful system to use with lots of very good software available at reasonable prices (of for free). It is very fast right now with excellent ppc support (even Flash!!). Even on the x86 side, where the performance is not as much an issue (since x86 is supported), Linux is quite a bit behind OS X, in my opinion. This is too bad, since I strongly support the open software movement. Part of the problem is that the linux developers have been trying to emulate windows and this is not a very good paradigm, in my opinion. The rest might be the closed hardware and proliferation of different configurations which make linux difficult to administer. I do support the efforts of Fixstars in making a ppc and Cell linux available. Perhaps the Powerstation will aquire a Cell processor without a price increase and can actually become a reasonable competitor to the PS3 as a Cell platform. All of the others are much too expensive for mass consumption, in my opinion. Eventually, Intel will come up with a competitor - it will probably be technically inferior but will be marketed well to the consumer, if history is any guide. Cheers, wn On Jan 19, 2009, at 1:49 PM, Kai Staats wrote: In my opinion, this will never change with PPC hardware, which is a tiny niche of a small niche. It would be nice if a PPC vendor like Fixstars could fix this, but they would need serious cooperat
Re: [ydl-gen] Slow ibook X11 (2D)
Hi Warren: I've noticed your comments along with everyone else's and it's pretty clear you aren't interested in server stuff or nearly any thing else other than your theme. In any case Warren, you've been a gentleman about your complaints. So hopefully pointing out the link below will also help you find the tools which could help you get going. I believed it would interest you that Windowmaker is available for YDL via Fedora Extras. Believe it or not I found it via a link from Fixstars web pages, please don't blame Kai. He might have forgotten it was even available. In any case that Fixstars link points here: http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/fedora/linux/extras/5/ppc/ I have to think about it a bit, but perhaps you already know there should be a way to code yum so that it incorporates Fedora Extras into it's search and installation routines. When yum was simpler, the solution was easier. A little concentration never hurt anyone. If I figure something out I'll post it somewhere, unless of course you figure it out first. Then by all means I'm sure you'll post it in some thread we all can refer to. All the best... Warren Nagourney wrote: > I think that the PS3 community would have been willing to pay for > accelerated video, though I don't know whether that would have made it > profitable. I actually think that this misses the point. Apple did > very well just after the Mac was introduced in 1984 by encouraging 3rd > party software and helping build the enthusiasm for the platform. If > Sony had opened up the GPU (at least provided drivers for linux), > there could have been a small groundswell of enthusiasm for the > machine which certainly would have also translated into the sale of > games. I hate video games but many of the potential linux users don't > feel this way and would have bought them. > > Right now, I have a bad taste in my mouth about Sony and to a smaller > extent about the PS3. I will continue to use it as a platform for > learning about the Cell, but much of my enthusiasm for the platform > has been lost. The forums at ps2dev were buzzing with excitement > after the "hack" was successful; recently the number of new posts is > about one a week and most are about some peripheral, not the PS3. > > I simply don't see how the desktop experience for PPC linux on Macs > can compare to that of OS X. The latter is a mature, fairly delightful > system to use with lots of very good software available at reasonable > prices (of for free). It is very fast right now with excellent ppc > support (even Flash!!). Even on the x86 side, where the performance is > not as much an issue (since x86 is supported), Linux is quite a bit > behind OS X, in my opinion. This is too bad, since I strongly support > the open software movement. Part of the problem is that the linux > developers have been trying to emulate windows and this is not a very > good paradigm, in my opinion. The rest might be the closed hardware > and proliferation of different configurations which make linux > difficult to administer. > > I do support the efforts of Fixstars in making a ppc and Cell linux > available. Perhaps the Powerstation will aquire a Cell processor > without a price increase and can actually become a reasonable > competitor to the PS3 as a Cell platform. All of the others are much > too expensive for mass consumption, in my opinion. Eventually, Intel > will come up with a competitor - it will probably be technically > inferior but will be marketed well to the consumer, if history is any > guide. > > Cheers, > > wn > > > On Jan 19, 2009, at 1:49 PM, Kai Staats wrote: > > >>> In my opinion, this will >>> never change with PPC hardware, which is a tiny niche of a small >>> niche. It would be nice if a PPC vendor like Fixstars could fix this, >>> but they would need serious cooperation from the GPU manufacturers >>> and that is likely not forthcoming (the PS3 linux disaster is a case >>> at point). >>> >> Yes, because PPC hardware is a relatively small player in the >> commodity, >> consumer world, there is less pressure and less reason for companies >> such as >> Apple to support Linux. But the inside story is that Apple was >> conflicted, >> for at one time (2000/2001) they had a Linux Technology Manager, >> full-time, >> with a small team at his disposal. But eventually, this position was >> terminated (as far as I know). >> >> Apple's shareholders want religious focus, not me-too consideration >> of all >> things possible. Linux simply was not on the radar outside of the >> work by the >> former Terra Soft, which was granted a unique license to install >> Linux and >> maintain warranty, but never received a single bit of data. >> >> Concerning Sony, similar unfolding. While the former CEO of Sony had >> a vision >> for the PS3 to be more than a game box, selling PS3s without games >> actually >> loses money fo
Re: [ydl-gen] Slow ibook X11 (2D)
I think that the PS3 community would have been willing to pay for accelerated video, though I don't know whether that would have made it profitable. I actually think that this misses the point. Apple did very well just after the Mac was introduced in 1984 by encouraging 3rd party software and helping build the enthusiasm for the platform. If Sony had opened up the GPU (at least provided drivers for linux), there could have been a small groundswell of enthusiasm for the machine which certainly would have also translated into the sale of games. I hate video games but many of the potential linux users don't feel this way and would have bought them. Right now, I have a bad taste in my mouth about Sony and to a smaller extent about the PS3. I will continue to use it as a platform for learning about the Cell, but much of my enthusiasm for the platform has been lost. The forums at ps2dev were buzzing with excitement after the "hack" was successful; recently the number of new posts is about one a week and most are about some peripheral, not the PS3. I simply don't see how the desktop experience for PPC linux on Macs can compare to that of OS X. The latter is a mature, fairly delightful system to use with lots of very good software available at reasonable prices (of for free). It is very fast right now with excellent ppc support (even Flash!!). Even on the x86 side, where the performance is not as much an issue (since x86 is supported), Linux is quite a bit behind OS X, in my opinion. This is too bad, since I strongly support the open software movement. Part of the problem is that the linux developers have been trying to emulate windows and this is not a very good paradigm, in my opinion. The rest might be the closed hardware and proliferation of different configurations which make linux difficult to administer. I do support the efforts of Fixstars in making a ppc and Cell linux available. Perhaps the Powerstation will aquire a Cell processor without a price increase and can actually become a reasonable competitor to the PS3 as a Cell platform. All of the others are much too expensive for mass consumption, in my opinion. Eventually, Intel will come up with a competitor - it will probably be technically inferior but will be marketed well to the consumer, if history is any guide. Cheers, wn On Jan 19, 2009, at 1:49 PM, Kai Staats wrote: >> In my opinion, this will >> never change with PPC hardware, which is a tiny niche of a small >> niche. It would be nice if a PPC vendor like Fixstars could fix this, >> but they would need serious cooperation from the GPU manufacturers >> and that is likely not forthcoming (the PS3 linux disaster is a case >> at point). > > Yes, because PPC hardware is a relatively small player in the > commodity, > consumer world, there is less pressure and less reason for companies > such as > Apple to support Linux. But the inside story is that Apple was > conflicted, > for at one time (2000/2001) they had a Linux Technology Manager, > full-time, > with a small team at his disposal. But eventually, this position was > terminated (as far as I know). > > Apple's shareholders want religious focus, not me-too consideration > of all > things possible. Linux simply was not on the radar outside of the > work by the > former Terra Soft, which was granted a unique license to install > Linux and > maintain warranty, but never received a single bit of data. > > Concerning Sony, similar unfolding. While the former CEO of Sony had > a vision > for the PS3 to be more than a game box, selling PS3s without games > actually > loses money for Sony (or so the rumor goes). So if you open the RSX > so that > Linux lovers may run their favorite games (Windows emus as well) on > the PS3, > Sony loses money on each PS3 they sell to Linux users who don't buy > games. > > You have to keep in mind that >90% of PPC is embedded. We use it > every day for > telecom, auto, routers, etcv. And most of it is running some flavor of > Linux/Unix. What we as consumers enjoy is a unique PPC + Linux > combination > for the desktop which is by no means the largest following on the > planet. > > Consumers + x86 + Linux makes money for x86 OEMs due to the > incredible variety > of low-cost parts and systems. > > PPC + Linux is an increasingly powerful combination in > supercomputing and > embedded applications, but to date, there have not been a great many > consumer > products built on Power. > > But all things cycle, right? So maybe some of the new CPUs from > Freescale or > AMCC will find their way into consumer products again ... or maybe > the next > gen Playstation will have more RAM --who knows? > > Until then, Fixstars does its best to support the commodity systems > to keep > the ecosystem healthy. It is more difficult to sell high-end systems > if we do > not have the mid-range as well, something to experime
Re: [ydl-gen] Slow ibook X11 (2D)
> In my opinion, this will > never change with PPC hardware, which is a tiny niche of a small > niche. It would be nice if a PPC vendor like Fixstars could fix this, > but they would need serious cooperation from the GPU manufacturers > and that is likely not forthcoming (the PS3 linux disaster is a case > at point). Yes, because PPC hardware is a relatively small player in the commodity, consumer world, there is less pressure and less reason for companies such as Apple to support Linux. But the inside story is that Apple was conflicted, for at one time (2000/2001) they had a Linux Technology Manager, full-time, with a small team at his disposal. But eventually, this position was terminated (as far as I know). Apple's shareholders want religious focus, not me-too consideration of all things possible. Linux simply was not on the radar outside of the work by the former Terra Soft, which was granted a unique license to install Linux and maintain warranty, but never received a single bit of data. Concerning Sony, similar unfolding. While the former CEO of Sony had a vision for the PS3 to be more than a game box, selling PS3s without games actually loses money for Sony (or so the rumor goes). So if you open the RSX so that Linux lovers may run their favorite games (Windows emus as well) on the PS3, Sony loses money on each PS3 they sell to Linux users who don't buy games. You have to keep in mind that >90% of PPC is embedded. We use it every day for telecom, auto, routers, etcv. And most of it is running some flavor of Linux/Unix. What we as consumers enjoy is a unique PPC + Linux combination for the desktop which is by no means the largest following on the planet. Consumers + x86 + Linux makes money for x86 OEMs due to the incredible variety of low-cost parts and systems. PPC + Linux is an increasingly powerful combination in supercomputing and embedded applications, but to date, there have not been a great many consumer products built on Power. But all things cycle, right? So maybe some of the new CPUs from Freescale or AMCC will find their way into consumer products again ... or maybe the next gen Playstation will have more RAM --who knows? Until then, Fixstars does its best to support the commodity systems to keep the ecosystem healthy. It is more difficult to sell high-end systems if we do not have the mid-range as well, something to experiment with or run on the side of the cluster for devel or testing. The PS3 works very well for this, and plays a significant role in several outstanding clusters. Could we get 2D, even 3D support for the older Macs? Sure, but could we justify the expense? No, not unless we charge a helluvalot more for the licenses. Sincerely, kai ___ yellowdog-general mailing list yellowdog-general@lists.fixstars.com http://lists.fixstars.com/mailman/listinfo/yellowdog-general HINT: to Google archives, try ' site:terrasoftsolutions.com'
Re: [ydl-gen] Slow ibook X11 (2D)
Thanks again, Stephen. If I ever reformat my hard disk and add a linux partition, I will use your kernel. I just installed OS X 10.5 on my 800 MHz iBook and was astounded at how much zippier and smoother it is than Tiger. Since Apple's cut- off is 867 MHz, I needed to use the leopardassistant to fool the OF into thinking I had a 867 MHz machine. In my more paranoid moments, I thought that Apple would deliberately cripple later releases of its OS to "encourage" people to buy new x86 machines but I was wrong. This is the problem with linux, in my opinion. Despite being open source, the hardware is decidedly closed, particularly the GPU, upon which so much of the user experience depends. Apple has full access to the GPU and can use it to speed up video (using "core video") in ways that no linux can (even x86 linux). Right now the bottom end iBook is a delight to use and the contrast with my former experience with linux on it couldn't be more stark. In my opinion, this will never change with PPC hardware, which is a tiny niche of a small niche. It would be nice if a PPC vendor like Fixstars could fix this, but they would need serious cooperation from the GPU manufacturers and that is likely not forthcoming (the PS3 linux disaster is a case at point). Cheers, wn On Jan 17, 2009, at 8:19 PM, Stephen Harker wrote: > I should have looked at my notes. The thing that got accelerated X11 > working on my iBook G4 was building my own kernel. I built 2.6.27.8 > prior to updating to ydl6.1. This allowed me to have a common kernel > on my 7600 and iBook. With the default kenrel I don't get accelerated > X11, but with mine I do. For what it may be worth I attach my > .config which includes things that won't be useful for most people, I > started with 'make pmac32_defconig'. > > -- > Stephen Harker s.har...@adfa.edu.au > PEMS > u...@adfa<.config>___ > yellowdog-general mailing list > yellowdog-general@lists.fixstars.com > http://lists.fixstars.com/mailman/listinfo/yellowdog-general > HINT: to Google archives, try ' > site:terrasoftsolutions.com' ___ yellowdog-general mailing list yellowdog-general@lists.fixstars.com http://lists.fixstars.com/mailman/listinfo/yellowdog-general HINT: to Google archives, try ' site:terrasoftsolutions.com'
Re: [ydl-gen] Slow ibook X11 (2D)
I should have looked at my notes. The thing that got accelerated X11 working on my iBook G4 was building my own kernel. I built 2.6.27.8 prior to updating to ydl6.1. This allowed me to have a common kernel on my 7600 and iBook. With the default kenrel I don't get accelerated X11, but with mine I do. For what it may be worth I attach my .config which includes things that won't be useful for most people, I started with 'make pmac32_defconig'. -- Stephen Harker s.har...@adfa.edu.au PEMS u...@adfa # # Automatically generated make config: don't edit # Linux kernel version: 2.6.27.8 # Sun Jan 11 00:08:48 2009 # # CONFIG_PPC64 is not set # # Processor support # CONFIG_6xx=y # CONFIG_PPC_85xx is not set # CONFIG_PPC_8xx is not set # CONFIG_40x is not set # CONFIG_44x is not set # CONFIG_E200 is not set CONFIG_PPC_FPU=y CONFIG_ALTIVEC=y CONFIG_PPC_STD_MMU=y CONFIG_PPC_STD_MMU_32=y # CONFIG_PPC_MM_SLICES is not set # CONFIG_SMP is not set CONFIG_PPC32=y CONFIG_WORD_SIZE=32 CONFIG_PPC_MERGE=y CONFIG_MMU=y CONFIG_GENERIC_CMOS_UPDATE=y CONFIG_GENERIC_TIME=y CONFIG_GENERIC_TIME_VSYSCALL=y CONFIG_GENERIC_CLOCKEVENTS=y CONFIG_GENERIC_HARDIRQS=y # CONFIG_HAVE_SETUP_PER_CPU_AREA is not set CONFIG_IRQ_PER_CPU=y CONFIG_STACKTRACE_SUPPORT=y CONFIG_HAVE_LATENCYTOP_SUPPORT=y CONFIG_LOCKDEP_SUPPORT=y CONFIG_RWSEM_XCHGADD_ALGORITHM=y CONFIG_ARCH_HAS_ILOG2_U32=y CONFIG_GENERIC_HWEIGHT=y CONFIG_GENERIC_CALIBRATE_DELAY=y CONFIG_GENERIC_FIND_NEXT_BIT=y # CONFIG_ARCH_NO_VIRT_TO_BUS is not set CONFIG_PPC=y CONFIG_EARLY_PRINTK=y CONFIG_GENERIC_NVRAM=y CONFIG_SCHED_NO_NO_OMIT_FRAME_POINTER=y CONFIG_ARCH_MAY_HAVE_PC_FDC=y CONFIG_PPC_OF=y CONFIG_OF=y # CONFIG_PPC_UDBG_16550 is not set # CONFIG_GENERIC_TBSYNC is not set CONFIG_AUDIT_ARCH=y CONFIG_GENERIC_BUG=y CONFIG_SYS_SUPPORTS_APM_EMULATION=y # CONFIG_DEFAULT_UIMAGE is not set CONFIG_HIBERNATE_32=y CONFIG_ARCH_HIBERNATION_POSSIBLE=y CONFIG_ARCH_SUSPEND_POSSIBLE=y # CONFIG_PPC_DCR_NATIVE is not set # CONFIG_PPC_DCR_MMIO is not set CONFIG_DEFCONFIG_LIST="/lib/modules/$UNAME_RELEASE/.config" # # General setup # CONFIG_EXPERIMENTAL=y CONFIG_BROKEN_ON_SMP=y CONFIG_INIT_ENV_ARG_LIMIT=32 CONFIG_LOCALVERSION="" # CONFIG_LOCALVERSION_AUTO is not set CONFIG_SWAP=y CONFIG_SYSVIPC=y CONFIG_SYSVIPC_SYSCTL=y CONFIG_POSIX_MQUEUE=y CONFIG_BSD_PROCESS_ACCT=y # CONFIG_BSD_PROCESS_ACCT_V3 is not set # CONFIG_TASKSTATS is not set CONFIG_AUDIT=y CONFIG_AUDITSYSCALL=y CONFIG_AUDIT_TREE=y CONFIG_IKCONFIG=y CONFIG_IKCONFIG_PROC=y CONFIG_LOG_BUF_SHIFT=14 # CONFIG_CGROUPS is not set # CONFIG_GROUP_SCHED is not set CONFIG_SYSFS_DEPRECATED=y CONFIG_SYSFS_DEPRECATED_V2=y # CONFIG_RELAY is not set CONFIG_NAMESPACES=y # CONFIG_UTS_NS is not set # CONFIG_IPC_NS is not set # CONFIG_USER_NS is not set # CONFIG_PID_NS is not set CONFIG_BLK_DEV_INITRD=y CONFIG_INITRAMFS_SOURCE="" # CONFIG_CC_OPTIMIZE_FOR_SIZE is not set CONFIG_SYSCTL=y # CONFIG_EMBEDDED is not set CONFIG_SYSCTL_SYSCALL=y CONFIG_KALLSYMS=y CONFIG_KALLSYMS_ALL=y # CONFIG_KALLSYMS_EXTRA_PASS is not set CONFIG_HOTPLUG=y CONFIG_PRINTK=y CONFIG_BUG=y CONFIG_ELF_CORE=y # CONFIG_COMPAT_BRK is not set CONFIG_BASE_FULL=y CONFIG_FUTEX=y CONFIG_ANON_INODES=y CONFIG_EPOLL=y CONFIG_SIGNALFD=y CONFIG_TIMERFD=y CONFIG_EVENTFD=y CONFIG_SHMEM=y CONFIG_VM_EVENT_COUNTERS=y CONFIG_SLUB_DEBUG=y # CONFIG_SLAB is not set CONFIG_SLUB=y # CONFIG_SLOB is not set CONFIG_PROFILING=y # CONFIG_MARKERS is not set CONFIG_OPROFILE=y CONFIG_HAVE_OPROFILE=y # CONFIG_KPROBES is not set CONFIG_HAVE_EFFICIENT_UNALIGNED_ACCESS=y CONFIG_HAVE_IOREMAP_PROT=y CONFIG_HAVE_KPROBES=y CONFIG_HAVE_KRETPROBES=y CONFIG_HAVE_ARCH_TRACEHOOK=y # CONFIG_HAVE_DMA_ATTRS is not set # CONFIG_USE_GENERIC_SMP_HELPERS is not set # CONFIG_HAVE_CLK is not set CONFIG_PROC_PAGE_MONITOR=y # CONFIG_HAVE_GENERIC_DMA_COHERENT is not set CONFIG_SLABINFO=y CONFIG_RT_MUTEXES=y # CONFIG_TINY_SHMEM is not set CONFIG_BASE_SMALL=0 CONFIG_MODULES=y # CONFIG_MODULE_FORCE_LOAD is not set CONFIG_MODULE_UNLOAD=y CONFIG_MODULE_FORCE_UNLOAD=y # CONFIG_MODVERSIONS is not set # CONFIG_MODULE_SRCVERSION_ALL is not set CONFIG_KMOD=y CONFIG_BLOCK=y CONFIG_LBD=y # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_IO_TRACE is not set CONFIG_LSF=y CONFIG_BLK_DEV_BSG=y # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_INTEGRITY is not set # # IO Schedulers # CONFIG_IOSCHED_NOOP=y CONFIG_IOSCHED_AS=y CONFIG_IOSCHED_DEADLINE=y CONFIG_IOSCHED_CFQ=y CONFIG_DEFAULT_AS=y # CONFIG_DEFAULT_DEADLINE is not set # CONFIG_DEFAULT_CFQ is not set # CONFIG_DEFAULT_NOOP is not set CONFIG_DEFAULT_IOSCHED="anticipatory" CONFIG_CLASSIC_RCU=y # # Platform support # CONFIG_PPC_MULTIPLATFORM=y CONFIG_CLASSIC32=y # CONFIG_PPC_CHRP is not set # CONFIG_MPC5121_ADS is not set # CONFIG_MPC5121_GENERIC is not set # CONFIG_PPC_MPC52xx is not set CONFIG_PPC_PMAC=y # CONFIG_PPC_CELL is not set # CONFIG_PPC_CELL_NATIVE is not set # CONFIG_PPC_82xx is not set # CONFIG_PQ2ADS is not set # CONFIG_PPC_83xx is not set # CONFIG_PPC_86xx is not set # CONFIG_EMBEDDED6xx is not set CONFIG_PPC_NATIVE=y # CONFIG_IPIC is
Re: [ydl-gen] Slow ibook X11 (2D)
Thanks for the reply, John. I have done a fair amount of programming on OS X (Cocoa). In my opinion, Xcode has become increasingly difficult to use - the scheme for setting preferences in Xcode is a nightmare. I am still an amateur programmer - mainly I wrote simple physics demos using OpenGL (which is very, very badly supported in ppc linux). On the other hand, all of the gcc tools are there and there is even a Qt designer, my preferred environment, for OS X. The file system doesn't matter to me. Nor does x86 compatibility. I still have my PS3 for linux programming and the Cell is a very interesting processor (my reason for buying the PS3). Of course, Sony did its best to make the linux experience on the PS3 very miserable due to their non-support for the GPU (I avoided some of this by using the 2D Xorg hack). Finally, I am not that concerned about Apple dropping support for the ppc (which they will do very soon). The OS is very mature and will still work for the remainder of my lifetime. There is very little of substance in recent years which requires x86 hardware (some video stuff, such as gmail video and netflix streaming, all of which I can do without). Of course the future is hard to predict, but I don't anticipate anything in the future which absolutely requires an x86 chip (they are not that powerful). I realize that my rant is somewhat off-topic (I posted a similar one on the Ubuntu forum). I still have not seen a really compelling reason to use linux - there isn't a single app (or feature) in linux which makes it worth going through (for me) all of the hassles of miserably supported hardware in ppc linux. On Jan 17, 2009, at 7:45 AM, John Michael Zorko wrote: > > Warren, > > I, too, really like OSX, and I view it as one of, if not _the_, finest > *nixes out there for a very wide range of tasks. Apple has done a > really good job with it I think. The OSX experience on Apple PPC > hardware is generally better than the Linux experience on the same > hardware (which is often _not_ the case with PC hardware -- the Linux > experience is often as good or better than the Windows experience). > > That being said, there are still reasons why Linux on Apple PPC > hardware might still be preferable, depending on what you need to do: > > 1. if you're a C / C++ developer (pro or not), there are differences > -- kqueue is not epoll (not that one is necessarily better than the > other as they both solve the same sort of problems, but they are > different), for instance > 2. if filesystem type is important, HFS+ is not ext3 (case > sensitivity, filename length, resource forks compared to xattrs, etc.) > 3. if you need AIO on non-file FDs, Linux will let you do that while > OSX will not > 4. the GNU toolchain is the same on PPC Linux as it is on x86 Linux, > while Apple's toolchain, while using gcc, is not the same as GNU's > toolchain i.e. Apple's linker is not GNU ld, Mach-O is not elf ... > again, not that one is better than the other, but they are different > 5. probably the biggest reason -- Apple likely won't support OSX on > PPC for much longer, so hopefully YDL will ... > > Regards, > > John > > Falling You - exploring the beauty of voice and sound > http://www.fallingyou.com > >> Actually, I just gave up running linux on my iBook (I reformatted the >> disk, deleting the linux partitions). I have spent quite a bit of >> time with three different linuxes: YDL 6.1, Yubuntu 8.10 and Yubuntu >> 7.10. Except for some easily solved problems, each one installed with >> few problems. After installation, I found that the user experience >> with the OS was far worse than with OS X and I repeatedly asked >> myself "why am I doing this?" > > > > > > ___ > yellowdog-general mailing list > yellowdog-general@lists.fixstars.com > http://lists.fixstars.com/mailman/listinfo/yellowdog-general > HINT: to Google archives, try ' > site:terrasoftsolutions.com' ___ yellowdog-general mailing list yellowdog-general@lists.fixstars.com http://lists.fixstars.com/mailman/listinfo/yellowdog-general HINT: to Google archives, try ' site:terrasoftsolutions.com'
Re: [ydl-gen] Slow ibook X11 (2D)
Warren, I, too, really like OSX, and I view it as one of, if not _the_, finest *nixes out there for a very wide range of tasks. Apple has done a really good job with it I think. The OSX experience on Apple PPC hardware is generally better than the Linux experience on the same hardware (which is often _not_ the case with PC hardware -- the Linux experience is often as good or better than the Windows experience). That being said, there are still reasons why Linux on Apple PPC hardware might still be preferable, depending on what you need to do: 1. if you're a C / C++ developer (pro or not), there are differences -- kqueue is not epoll (not that one is necessarily better than the other as they both solve the same sort of problems, but they are different), for instance 2. if filesystem type is important, HFS+ is not ext3 (case sensitivity, filename length, resource forks compared to xattrs, etc.) 3. if you need AIO on non-file FDs, Linux will let you do that while OSX will not 4. the GNU toolchain is the same on PPC Linux as it is on x86 Linux, while Apple's toolchain, while using gcc, is not the same as GNU's toolchain i.e. Apple's linker is not GNU ld, Mach-O is not elf ... again, not that one is better than the other, but they are different 5. probably the biggest reason -- Apple likely won't support OSX on PPC for much longer, so hopefully YDL will ... Regards, John Falling You - exploring the beauty of voice and sound http://www.fallingyou.com > Actually, I just gave up running linux on my iBook (I reformatted the > disk, deleting the linux partitions). I have spent quite a bit of > time with three different linuxes: YDL 6.1, Yubuntu 8.10 and Yubuntu > 7.10. Except for some easily solved problems, each one installed with > few problems. After installation, I found that the user experience > with the OS was far worse than with OS X and I repeatedly asked > myself "why am I doing this?" ___ yellowdog-general mailing list yellowdog-general@lists.fixstars.com http://lists.fixstars.com/mailman/listinfo/yellowdog-general HINT: to Google archives, try ' site:terrasoftsolutions.com'
Re: [ydl-gen] Slow ibook X11 (2D)
Thanks, Stephen, for the help. Actually, I just gave up running linux on my iBook (I reformatted the disk, deleting the linux partitions). I have spent quite a bit of time with three different linuxes: YDL 6.1, Yubuntu 8.10 and Yubuntu 7.10. Except for some easily solved problems, each one installed with few problems. After installation, I found that the user experience with the OS was far worse than with OS X and I repeatedly asked myself "why am I doing this?" Everything worked at best barely acceptably and nothing was as smooth, fast and clean as in OS X. I have a fair bit of experience with Linux over the last 15 years (on various PPC macs, starting with MkLinux on a Powermac 8100). Part of the problem is that OS X has gotten to be very good lately and even the latest version (10.5) seems to do a good job of supporting the PPC, unlike linux. The ppc GPU drivers are a hit and miss hack - a good job of reverse engineering but not nearly as good as supported drivers. I found that window moving on iBook linux was pretty smooth but scrolling was glacial - reminds me of my old 68040 Mac. There are a lot of things that ppc linux simply will not do. For example, there is no Flash and the alternative (gnash) is awful in my experience. I never succeeded in getting DVD disks to play on the iBook - there is some codec that doesn't seem to have a ppc version. The two main window managers are beyond ugly in my opinion and I never took to Enlightenment. My favorite window manager is Window Maker and it has trouble - for some strange reason, it defeats 2D acceleration on theiBook (but not on my PS3). The list of annoyances is endless and I am delighted to be back in OS X. I still have Linux on my PS3 and with the 2D RSX hack, it is fairly pleasant to use. Cheers, Warren Nagourney On Jan 16, 2009, at 9:54 PM, Stephen Harker wrote: > Hi, > >> I just installed YDL 6.1 on an ibook g4 800 Mhz and the 2D graphics >> are definitely not accelerated. Does anyone know how to enable >> graphics acceleration on this machine? (I did a default >> installation). > > I have accelerated X11 with my iBook G4 (late 2005) and ydl6.1. In > fact there was a great improvement with ydl6.1 over ydl6 as my > accelerated graphics had glxgears going from around 400fps to around > 1200fps (the chip in these later iBook G4's was only partly supported > with the earlier Xorg). I will attach my manualy edited xorg.conf and > /etc/X11/fs/config that is at least partly relied upon. Check and > compare with yours. > > -- > Stephen Harker s.har...@adfa.edu.au > PEMS > u...@adfa__ > _ > yellowdog-general mailing list > yellowdog-general@lists.fixstars.com > http://lists.fixstars.com/mailman/listinfo/yellowdog-general > HINT: to Google archives, try ' > site:terrasoftsolutions.com' ___ yellowdog-general mailing list yellowdog-general@lists.fixstars.com http://lists.fixstars.com/mailman/listinfo/yellowdog-general HINT: to Google archives, try ' site:terrasoftsolutions.com'
Re: [ydl-gen] Slow ibook X11 (2D)
Hi, > I just installed YDL 6.1 on an ibook g4 800 Mhz and the 2D graphics > are definitely not accelerated. Does anyone know how to enable > graphics acceleration on this machine? (I did a default installation). I have accelerated X11 with my iBook G4 (late 2005) and ydl6.1. In fact there was a great improvement with ydl6.1 over ydl6 as my accelerated graphics had glxgears going from around 400fps to around 1200fps (the chip in these later iBook G4's was only partly supported with the earlier Xorg). I will attach my manualy edited xorg.conf and /etc/X11/fs/config that is at least partly relied upon. Check and compare with yours. -- Stephen Harker s.har...@adfa.edu.au PEMS u...@adfa # Xorg configuration created by system-config-display Section "Files" # RgbPath is the location of the RGB database. Note, this is the name of the # file minus the extension (like ".txt" or ".db"). There is normally # no need to change the default. # Multiple FontPath entries are allowed (they are concatenated together) # By default, Red Hat 6.0 and later now use a font server independent of # the X server to render fonts. FontPath "unix/:7100" EndSection Section "Module" Load "dbe" Load "extmod" Load "fbdevhw" Load "glx" #Load "record" Load "freetype" Load "type1" Load "dri" EndSection Section "InputDevice" # Change "XkbModel" to "macintosh_old" if you are using # the deprecated adb keycodes. Identifier "Keyboard0" Driver "kbd" Option "XkbModel" "macintosh" Option "XkbLayout" "us" EndSection Section "InputDevice" Identifier "Mouse0" Driver "mouse" Option "ZAxisMapping" "4 5" Option "Protocol" "IMPS/2" Option "Device" "/dev/input/mice" EndSection # ** # Monitor section # ** # Any number of monitor sections may be present Section "Monitor" Identifier "TFT" ModelName"LCD Panel 1024x768" ### Comment all HorizSync and VertSync values to use DDC: #HorizSync31.5 - 48.5 #VertRefresh 40.0 - 90.0 Option "DPMS" EndSection Section "Monitor" Identifier "ExternalMonitor" EndSection Section "Device" ### Available Driver options are:- #Option "SWcursor" Identifier "Card0" Driver "radeon" VendorName "ATI Technologies Inc" BoardName "ATI Radeon Mobility M10/M11" Option "HWcursor" Option "fbdev" "/dev/fb0" #Option "UseFBDev" "true" Option "CloneMode" "1024x768" #BusID "PCI:0:16:0" #Option "MergedFB" "on" #Option "MergedNonRectangular" "true" Option "AGPMode" "2" #Option "AccelMethod" "XAA" Option "AccelMethod" "EXA" Option "EnablePageFlip" "On" Option "LVDSProbePLL" "true" Option "CRT2VRefresh" "40.0-90.0" #Option "CRT2Position" "Clone" EndSection Section "Screen" Identifier "Screen0" Device "Card0" Monitor"TFT" DefaultDepth 24 SubSection "Display" Depth 8 Modes"1024x768" EndSubSection SubSection "Display" Depth 16 Modes"1024x768" EndSubSection SubSection "Display" Depth 24 Modes"1024x768" "800x600" "640x480" EndSubSection EndSection Section "Screen" Identifier "Screen1" Device "Card0" Monitor"ExternalMonitor" DefaultDepth 24 SubSection "Display" Depth 8 Modes"1024x768" EndSubSection SubSection "Display" Depth 16 Modes"1024x768" EndSubSection SubSection "Display" Depth 24 Modes"1024x768" "800x600" "640x480" EndSubSection EndSection Section "ServerLayout" Identifier "dual head configuration" Screen 0 "Screen0" # LeftOf "Screen1" #Screen 1 "Screen1" 0 0 #Option "Xinerama" "true" #Option "MergedFB" "On" #Option "Clone" "On" InputDevice"Mouse0" "CorePointer" InputDevice"Keyboard0" "CoreKeyboard" #Option "OffTime" "10" EndSection Section "DRI" Group0 Mode 0666 EndSection # # Default font server configuration file for Red Hat Linux # # allow a max of 10 clients to connect to this font server client-limit = 10 # when a font server reaches its limit, start up a new one clone-self = on # alternate font servers for clients to use #alternate-servers = foo:7101,bar:
Re: [ydl-gen] Slow ibook X11 (2D)
Thanks for the response, Kai. I suppose that I have a preference for Debian-based distros, which is no reflection on YDL. The installation of YDL was much, much more straightforward than the installation of Ubuntu. The Ubuntu installer script had numerous bugs and it took a number of tries before it "took". Fortunately, these bugs are well documented and a little searching enabled me to find a solution. After installation, unfortunately, one is left with an RPM-based system which can quickly launch one into dependence hell. Whatever one might say about Debian linux, its repositories are huge and just about everything one might want is there. Things like Scilab and even Gnustep are easily accessible using apt-get or Synaptic (It took me the better part of a day to install GNustep on a YDL machine). The YUM repositories are much smaller. I am surprised that there are so many PS3 installations. My motivation in getting a PS3 was to learn Cell programming and I was willing to put up with some limitations. Unfortunately, the linux experience on a PS3 is usually very unsatisfying - slow launches, slow graphics, no Flash, inadequate memory, slow video (it can't even play a DVD cleanly in linux and is hopeless with HD video from a Blueray disk). I do indeed have a strong preference for PPC - otherwise I would have purchased a cheap x86 machine and avoided all of the above problems. Unfortunately, my intellectual interest in computers prevents me from using such an inelegant approach - for what it is worth, my original interest in the Mac in 1984 was not the OS but the fact that it used a 68000! (I had lots of PDP11 assembly experience and was looking forward to a home computer with a similar architecture). So I guess it is a strong aesthetic preference which keeps me on this track, with great personal inconvenience. Thanks for listening. Cheers, Warren Nagourney On Jan 13, 2009, at 4:13 PM, Kai Staats wrote: > Warren, > >> Thanks, Derick. Yes, I am well aware of Ubuntu's lack of support of >> PPC. In my opinion, the Ubuntu community effort more than makes up >> for this. In the process of installing the OS yesterday, I had a >> number of problems and found (by several Google searches) an answer >> for every problem in a matter of minutes. The various Ubuntu forums >> for PPC seem to have several orders of magnitude more members than >> the YDL forums. Also, the Debian repositories seem much more complete >> than the default yum repositories. I wanted to install wmaker, and >> did it quickly and immediately using apt-get in Ubuntu. When I tried >> it using YUM (in YDL), I got no hits. Actually, this is what "fed me >> up" and I was expecting no video acceleration when I installed Ubuntu >> - I was delighted to be wrong in this when the OS came up. As a PPC >> partisan, I have always hoped that YDL would have parity with Ubuntu >> in these areas, but life is short... > > Your feedback is well received. You are correct--a substantial > community can > more than compensate for the dedicated effort of a commercial > effort, even > one that releases its OS to the public mirrors. This is the very > basis of the > Linux movement and why it continues in such good health. > > While we embrace this, we are focused primarily on the Apple G5 and > forward > into Cell based systems with limited effort to support the older Apple > models. Our installer is the simplest on the market, and everything > works out > of the box, but some advanced features such as acceleration have > not been our > top priority this last round or two. It is a sad thing, say, for I > am writing > this on a 12" G4 PB running YDL and will be sad when it dies. > > The PS3/YDL userbase is very large, estimated at over 100,000 > (maybe more, > hard to tell), but not highly active in community support nor > development as > they come from a completely different background than traditional, > late '90s > and early 2000s Linux users. These are mostly PS3 users who > discovered that > Linux too can function on their game box, enabling a home computer. > > We desire to increase our active user base. We desire to build our > community. > > If you have any suggestions, please do not hesitate to contact me > through this > list or [first letter of my first name][last name] at us dot > fixstars dot com > > Sincerely, > kai > ___ > yellowdog-general mailing list > yellowdog-general@lists.fixstars.com > http://lists.fixstars.com/mailman/listinfo/yellowdog-general > HINT: to Google archives, try ' > site:terrasoftsolutions.com' ___ yellowdog-general mailing list yellowdog-general@lists.fixstars.com http://lists.fixstars.com/mailman/listinfo/yellowdog-general HINT: to Google archives, try ' site:terrasoftsolutions.com'
Re: [ydl-gen] Slow ibook X11 (2D)
Warren, > Thanks, Derick. Yes, I am well aware of Ubuntu's lack of support of > PPC. In my opinion, the Ubuntu community effort more than makes up > for this. In the process of installing the OS yesterday, I had a > number of problems and found (by several Google searches) an answer > for every problem in a matter of minutes. The various Ubuntu forums > for PPC seem to have several orders of magnitude more members than > the YDL forums. Also, the Debian repositories seem much more complete > than the default yum repositories. I wanted to install wmaker, and > did it quickly and immediately using apt-get in Ubuntu. When I tried > it using YUM (in YDL), I got no hits. Actually, this is what "fed me > up" and I was expecting no video acceleration when I installed Ubuntu > - I was delighted to be wrong in this when the OS came up. As a PPC > partisan, I have always hoped that YDL would have parity with Ubuntu > in these areas, but life is short... Your feedback is well received. You are correct--a substantial community can more than compensate for the dedicated effort of a commercial effort, even one that releases its OS to the public mirrors. This is the very basis of the Linux movement and why it continues in such good health. While we embrace this, we are focused primarily on the Apple G5 and forward into Cell based systems with limited effort to support the older Apple models. Our installer is the simplest on the market, and everything works out of the box, but some advanced features such as acceleration have not been our top priority this last round or two. It is a sad thing, say, for I am writing this on a 12" G4 PB running YDL and will be sad when it dies. The PS3/YDL userbase is very large, estimated at over 100,000 (maybe more, hard to tell), but not highly active in community support nor development as they come from a completely different background than traditional, late '90s and early 2000s Linux users. These are mostly PS3 users who discovered that Linux too can function on their game box, enabling a home computer. We desire to increase our active user base. We desire to build our community. If you have any suggestions, please do not hesitate to contact me through this list or [first letter of my first name][last name] at us dot fixstars dot com Sincerely, kai ___ yellowdog-general mailing list yellowdog-general@lists.fixstars.com http://lists.fixstars.com/mailman/listinfo/yellowdog-general HINT: to Google archives, try ' site:terrasoftsolutions.com'
Re: [ydl-gen] Slow ibook X11 (2D)
Thanks, Derick. Yes, I am well aware of Ubuntu's lack of support of PPC. In my opinion, the Ubuntu community effort more than makes up for this. In the process of installing the OS yesterday, I had a number of problems and found (by several Google searches) an answer for every problem in a matter of minutes. The various Ubuntu forums for PPC seem to have several orders of magnitude more members than the YDL forums. Also, the Debian repositories seem much more complete than the default yum repositories. I wanted to install wmaker, and did it quickly and immediately using apt-get in Ubuntu. When I tried it using YUM (in YDL), I got no hits. Actually, this is what "fed me up" and I was expecting no video acceleration when I installed Ubuntu - I was delighted to be wrong in this when the OS came up. As a PPC partisan, I have always hoped that YDL would have parity with Ubuntu in these areas, but life is short... cheers, wn On Jan 12, 2009, at 3:49 AM, Derick Centeno wrote: > Caveat Warren: Remember that Ubuntu quit supporting the PowerPC > officially back in version 6. What you've acquired is an unofficial > "community" effort. I understand your frustration; I thought you > would prefer to be clear regarding the "lay of the land". > > Still all the best...Derick > > On Jan 12, 2009, at 2:40 AM, Warren Nagourney wrote: > >> Sorry, I got fed up and installed Ubuntu 8.10 instead and had >> accelerated video right out of the box (in addition to a much >> better - >> in my opinion- app installation system than yum). >> >> cheers, >> >> wn >> > ___ > yellowdog-general mailing list > yellowdog-general@lists.fixstars.com > http://lists.fixstars.com/mailman/listinfo/yellowdog-general > HINT: to Google archives, try ' > site:terrasoftsolutions.com' ___ yellowdog-general mailing list yellowdog-general@lists.fixstars.com http://lists.fixstars.com/mailman/listinfo/yellowdog-general HINT: to Google archives, try ' site:terrasoftsolutions.com'
Re: [ydl-gen] Slow ibook X11 (2D)
Caveat Warren: Remember that Ubuntu quit supporting the PowerPC officially back in version 6. What you've acquired is an unofficial "community" effort. I understand your frustration; I thought you would prefer to be clear regarding the "lay of the land". Still all the best...Derick On Jan 12, 2009, at 2:40 AM, Warren Nagourney wrote: > Sorry, I got fed up and installed Ubuntu 8.10 instead and had > accelerated video right out of the box (in addition to a much better - > in my opinion- app installation system than yum). > > cheers, > > wn > ___ yellowdog-general mailing list yellowdog-general@lists.fixstars.com http://lists.fixstars.com/mailman/listinfo/yellowdog-general HINT: to Google archives, try ' site:terrasoftsolutions.com'
Re: [ydl-gen] Slow ibook X11 (2D)
Sorry, I got fed up and installed Ubuntu 8.10 instead and had accelerated video right out of the box (in addition to a much better - in my opinion- app installation system than yum). cheers, wn On Jan 11, 2009, at 5:01 PM, Warren Nagourney wrote: > Hello, > > I just installed YDL 6.1 on an ibook g4 800 Mhz and the 2D graphics > are definitely not accelerated. Does anyone know how to enable > graphics acceleration on this machine? (I did a default installation). > > I am beginning to believe that there will never be decent graphics on > a PPC linux machine. I guess the GPU manufacturers don't release > drivers for this architecture. The only "ppc" machine I have seen > with acceptable graphics is a PS3 using the hack which was blocked by > sony. > > Thanks. > > Warren Nagourney > > ___ > yellowdog-general mailing list > yellowdog-general@lists.fixstars.com > http://lists.fixstars.com/mailman/listinfo/yellowdog-general > HINT: to Google archives, try ' > site:terrasoftsolutions.com' ___ yellowdog-general mailing list yellowdog-general@lists.fixstars.com http://lists.fixstars.com/mailman/listinfo/yellowdog-general HINT: to Google archives, try ' site:terrasoftsolutions.com'
