Re: [Zen] Re: I need some practice advice
you said i was not zen enough ..as if you are an expert? my target at this moment is to bottle the seville marmalade i am in the process of making and 20 days down the track have it on toast in the morning when i can zen through the day with my gossamer wings praying merle youMerle, Jim was asking for advice. I gave him a little peek at 'my way'. I don't think you're 'off course', but then having a course implies you have a destination, a target. Do you? If so what is it? ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  we all have our own ways bill!..you who seem to think i'm off course ...as the old  song goes...  what ever gets you there go for it  merle...  Jim, Caveat: Everything I tell you is only my opinion. You've read a lot of books on what a lemon tastes like but now you need to bite into the lemon and find out for yourself. The books can't do that for you. They can encourage you and lead you up to that point, but their usefulness ends there - and in fact I'd even say much of what you've learned could be a hindrance to you in taking that final step. The taste of the lemon (and ONLY that)is what I call Buddha Nature, and it is non-dualistic (no taster/lemon distintion - no subject/object). It is what I often call 'Just THIS!' When experienced it has no name, no description - it is Just THIS! Later we put names on it and give it a description - but then it is not the thing itself (Just THIS!), it is our description of it. It is what all the books you have read are trying to do. IMO the image you described below as called mental-integration-itself is illusory - samsara. As soon as you become aware of it as something that seems to be an ...image inside my head, I can see all parts of the image simultaneously because something in me is integrating the parts of the image in some way. What you are describing here is still dualistic - there is a you, you have a head, your head has an inside, this image is located there, the image has parts, etc... The second description starts to move a little farther away from dualism: In a way, this transparent mental-integration-itself seems to be in front of the image. I then de-emphasize the image so it slips partly from awareness, while becoming more aware of the clear empty mental-integration-itself. A lot would depend on just what you meant by the phrase clear empty mental-integration-itself. If you are still clinging to a dualistic view of this, something like, 'I am sitting, and I experience an image, and that image has parts and then another image appears that I call the 'mental-integration' of that first image, and then the first image disappears from my awareness (or at least recedes into the background)- and this new image is EMPTY'.' I'd have to again ask, what do you mean by 'empty'? If you mean this new image that you are now aware of that exists inside you has no form, that's one thing. If you mean 'all is empty', no me, no image, Just EMPTINESS!, then that is another thing entirely. Again, all this is just IMO. Before I could really offer you any advice I'd have to know what you mean by 'mediation'. How do you do about that? If you could explain that a little more it would help. Here's an example of how I sit (zazen): I start sitting by counting my breathes, then following my breathes and then I drop the following and there is Just THIS!. In Japanese this is called 'shikantaza' which literally means 'just sit' or is sometimes translated as 'no mind'. What I do NOT do is try to visualize anything or think of anything (like a 'safe place' or a mantra), although I know these are styles of meditation. Thanks, and WELCOME TO THE ZEN FORUM! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, jfnewell7 jfnewell7@ wrote: I need some practice advice. In my meditation, I have become aware of something I will call mental-integration-itself although those words are only an approximation. I will therefore report some background and details, below, to see if I can get this across. What I need is advice on whether or not mental-integration-itself is enough on the path that I should spend a lot of time noticing it. Also, of course, if anyone sees a way I can improve on the mental-integration-itself awareness I have so far, I would be grateful. Both Dzogchen and Zen say that somehow, satori and samsara are the same. I have tried for years to understand what that would feel like. Here are a several examples from a vast number of comments: Cleary, Thomas, trans. (2002) SECRETS OF THE BLUE CLIFF RECORD, ZEN COMMENTS BY HAKUIN AND TENKEI, Boston London: Shambhala Page 76, If potential does not leave a static position, it falls into a sea of poison ... [Hakuin] The entirety of this introduction applies to the example.
[Zen] Re: do i have a smile on my lips?
You do now! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: one for you Bill! question: do i have a smile on my lips?..merle
[Zen] Re: Old Zen, New Zen
Merle, I didn't watch the video. I just guessed from the description. That sentence was just chum in the waters. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: so you did watch the german's jumping in the water bed...you told me NOT to send such stuff!...naughty you opening it up and peeking inside..merle I also like to jump on waterbeds from time to time. ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: I need some practice advice
Merle, READ THIS POST CAREFULLY I NEVER said you posted 'crap' and I NEVER said you were 'off course' and I NEVER said you are not 'zen enough' - whatever that means. You continue to read my posts and then spit them back at me while interjecting some kind of personal references or inferences which I DID NOT MAKE. I said I was not interested in your recent posts becauseand then told you. I didn't say it was CRAP. I just said it didn't interest me. There are a lot of non-crap, very good things that don't interest me or at least prompt me to post on them. I asked you that if you thought you had a 'course' I'd like to know what your destination was. As for 'not zen enough', I NEVER said that either although even your post below implies you are living your life in the future, not NOW! My advise is don't wait for 20 days until the marmalade is ready. Spread your 'gossamer wings' NOW. ...Bill! I didn't say you 'were not zen enough'. From you post below I see some of your goals and plans, but I do not see what YOU ARE DOING NOW. --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  you said i was not zen enough ..as if you are an expert?  my target at this moment is to bottle the seville marmalade i am in the process of making  and 20 days down the track have it on toast in the morning  when i can zen through the day with my gossamer wings praying  merle  youMerle, Jim was asking for advice. I gave him a little peek at 'my way'. I don't think you're 'off course', but then having a course implies you have a destination, a target. Do you? If so what is it? ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: àwe all have our own ways bill!..you who seem to think i'm off course ...as the old àsong goes... àwhat ever gets you there go for it àmerle... àJim, Caveat: Everything I tell you is only my opinion. You've read a lot of books on what a lemon tastes like but now you need to bite into the lemon and find out for yourself. The books can't do that for you. They can encourage you and lead you up to that point, but their usefulness ends there - and in fact I'd even say much of what you've learned could be a hindrance to you in taking that final step. The taste of the lemon (and ONLY that)is what I call Buddha Nature, and it is non-dualistic (no taster/lemon distintion - no subject/object). It is what I often call 'Just THIS!' When experienced it has no name, no description - it is Just THIS! Later we put names on it and give it a description - but then it is not the thing itself (Just THIS!), it is our description of it. It is what all the books you have read are trying to do. IMO the image you described below as called mental-integration-itself is illusory - samsara. As soon as you become aware of it as something that seems to be an ...image inside my head, I can see all parts of the image simultaneously because something in me is integrating the parts of the image in some way. What you are describing here is still dualistic - there is a you, you have a head, your head has an inside, this image is located there, the image has parts, etc... The second description starts to move a little farther away from dualism: In a way, this transparent mental-integration-itself seems to be in front of the image. I then de-emphasize the image so it slips partly from awareness, while becoming more aware of the clear empty mental-integration-itself. A lot would depend on just what you meant by the phrase clear empty mental-integration-itself. If you are still clinging to a dualistic view of this, something like, 'I am sitting, and I experience an image, and that image has parts and then another image appears that I call the 'mental-integration' of that first image, and then the first image disappears from my awareness (or at least recedes into the background)- and this new image is EMPTY'.' I'd have to again ask, what do you mean by 'empty'? If you mean this new image that you are now aware of that exists inside you has no form, that's one thing. If you mean 'all is empty', no me, no image, Just EMPTINESS!, then that is another thing entirely. Again, all this is just IMO. Before I could really offer you any advice I'd have to know what you mean by 'mediation'. How do you do about that? If you could explain that a little more it would help. Here's an example of how I sit (zazen): I start sitting by counting my breathes, then following my breathes and then I drop the following and there is Just THIS!. In Japanese this is called 'shikantaza' which literally means 'just sit' or is sometimes translated as 'no mind'. What I do NOT do is try to visualize anything or think of anything (like a
Re: [Zen] Re: Old Zen, New Zen
Self'/no-self', 'mind'/'no-mind' - such beliefs (or opinions if you prefer to think personal attachments differ from personal expressions of them) are hindrances, but being 'empty' can only appear to hinder. So long as such stories are appealing, you will pursue them. Doing so, one imagines the 'path' to appear long and narrow, and following it will appear to require great effort. Path defines self, self defines path. One in the same. All hindrances arise from thinking otherwise. KG On 10/6/2012 1:39 AM, Bill! wrote: The only hindrance to fully realizing Buddha Nature (IMO) is clinging to self...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, Kristopher Grey kris@... wrote: On 10/6/2012 1:09 AM, billsmart wrote: My practice is to continue to more completely bring no-mind (Buddha Nature) up off the cushion and more fully integrate it into my daily life. Seeing 'no-mind' as being more or less 'Buddha Nature than mind is the only hindrance to realizing life as the integral expression of this. Practice, wherever it may appear to lead, is non other than this, appearing as a form of expression. KG
Re: [Zen] Re: Old Zen, New Zen
aren't appearances too, just THIS!? and hindrances for that matter? On 10/6/12, Kristopher Grey k...@kgrey.com wrote: Self'/no-self', 'mind'/'no-mind' - such beliefs (or opinions if you prefer to think personal attachments differ from personal expressions of them) are hindrances, but being 'empty' can only appear to hinder. So long as such stories are appealing, you will pursue them. Doing so, one imagines the 'path' to appear long and narrow, and following it will appear to require great effort. Path defines self, self defines path. One in the same. All hindrances arise from thinking otherwise. KG On 10/6/2012 1:39 AM, Bill! wrote: The only hindrance to fully realizing Buddha Nature (IMO) is clinging to self...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, Kristopher Grey kris@... wrote: On 10/6/2012 1:09 AM, billsmart wrote: My practice is to continue to more completely bring no-mind (Buddha Nature) up off the cushion and more fully integrate it into my daily life. Seeing 'no-mind' as being more or less 'Buddha Nature than mind is the only hindrance to realizing life as the integral expression of this. Practice, wherever it may appear to lead, is non other than this, appearing as a form of expression. KG Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Old Zen, New Zen
KG, The only hindrance is self. When self melts away so does self/no-self, mind/no-mind, beliefs, opinions, appearances, hindrances/encouragements, etc... Self follows a path. Without self there is no path to follow, nowhere to go. Just THIS! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Kristopher Grey kris@... wrote: Self'/no-self', 'mind'/'no-mind' - such beliefs (or opinions if you prefer to think personal attachments differ from personal expressions of them) are hindrances, but being 'empty' can only appear to hinder. So long as such stories are appealing, you will pursue them. Doing so, one imagines the 'path' to appear long and narrow, and following it will appear to require great effort. Path defines self, self defines path. One in the same. All hindrances arise from thinking otherwise. KG On 10/6/2012 1:39 AM, Bill! wrote: The only hindrance to fully realizing Buddha Nature (IMO) is clinging to self...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, Kristopher Grey kris@ wrote: On 10/6/2012 1:09 AM, billsmart wrote: My practice is to continue to more completely bring no-mind (Buddha Nature) up off the cushion and more fully integrate it into my daily life. Seeing 'no-mind' as being more or less 'Buddha Nature than mind is the only hindrance to realizing life as the integral expression of this. Practice, wherever it may appear to lead, is non other than this, appearing as a form of expression. KG Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Old Zen, New Zen
yonyonson604, I'm assuming you've addressed this post to Kris so I'll let him respond. If you've addressed it to me let me know. ...and say hello to yonyonson602 and 603 for me too while you're at it. --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, yonyonson@... wrote: aren't appearances too, just THIS!? and hindrances for that matter? On 10/6/12, Kristopher Grey kris@... wrote: Self'/no-self', 'mind'/'no-mind' - such beliefs (or opinions if you prefer to think personal attachments differ from personal expressions of them) are hindrances, but being 'empty' can only appear to hinder. So long as such stories are appealing, you will pursue them. Doing so, one imagines the 'path' to appear long and narrow, and following it will appear to require great effort. Path defines self, self defines path. One in the same. All hindrances arise from thinking otherwise. KG On 10/6/2012 1:39 AM, Bill! wrote: The only hindrance to fully realizing Buddha Nature (IMO) is clinging to self...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, Kristopher Grey kris@ wrote: On 10/6/2012 1:09 AM, billsmart wrote: My practice is to continue to more completely bring no-mind (Buddha Nature) up off the cushion and more fully integrate it into my daily life. Seeing 'no-mind' as being more or less 'Buddha Nature than mind is the only hindrance to realizing life as the integral expression of this. Practice, wherever it may appear to lead, is non other than this, appearing as a form of expression. KG Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] the zen marmalade story
Bill!..then i mis- understood your posts and am truly sorry,..you did watch the germans jumping on the waterbed... eh? what am i to do Bill!? .send stuff like that or not?.. .one member of the group wants this stuff another does not. .i like to share. ..i get lots of of stuff from all over the world ..i do not give 2 hoots if folk do not want it. .some are delighted and tell me so... so the marmalade story? do i open my christmas presents NOW? honestly Bill!. ..you remind me of when i was a kid. .mother was out of the house and i'd look in every nook and cranny till i found the presents for christmas and hence Bill!. .i spoilt my treat and had to play act the christmas surprise the marmalade i have made only 7 jars there are more seville oranges on the tree. ..i will be making 32 pots of marmalade i await till all the pots are made now you are thinking where's the zen in this? as the old saying goes..what goes round comes around the coming and going is irrelevant when is not the question NOW is not the answer what is is the taste and the joy of preparing the 32 pots of marmalade then seeing them all beautiful lined up in a row upon the shelf of satisfaction of a job well done you know the old song.? .there were 10 green bottles sitting on the wall what would happen if one should accidentally fall? i rest my weary head upon the shoulder of tomorrow and pray that those gossamer wings however light by chance do not knock one green bottle and it would fall i have faith in awaiting for that very unique moment a truly earth shattering zen marmalade! if you like seville marmalade you'll know what i mean! merle Merle, READ THIS POST CAREFULLY I NEVER said you posted 'crap' and I NEVER said you were 'off course' and I NEVER said you are not 'zen enough' - whatever that means. You continue to read my posts and then spit them back at me while interjecting some kind of personal references or inferences which I DID NOT MAKE. I said I was not interested in your recent posts becauseand then told you. I didn't say it was CRAP. I just said it didn't interest me. There are a lot of non-crap, very good things that don't interest me or at least prompt me to post on them. I asked you that if you thought you had a 'course' I'd like to know what your destination was. As for 'not zen enough', I NEVER said that either although even your post below implies you are living your life in the future, not NOW! My advise is don't wait for 20 days until the marmalade is ready. Spread your 'gossamer wings' NOW. ...Bill! I didn't say you 'were not zen enough'. From you post below I see some of your goals and plans, but I do not see what YOU ARE DOING NOW. --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  you said i was not zen enough ..as if you are an expert?  my target at this moment is to bottle the seville marmalade i am in the process of making  and 20 days down the track have it on toast in the morning  when i can zen through the day with my gossamer wings praying  merle  youMerle, Jim was asking for advice. I gave him a little peek at 'my way'. I don't think you're 'off course', but then having a course implies you have a destination, a target. Do you? If so what is it? ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  we all have our own ways bill!..you who seem to think i'm off course ...as the old  song goes...  what ever gets you there go for it  merle...  Jim, Caveat: Everything I tell you is only my opinion. You've read a lot of books on what a lemon tastes like but now you need to bite into the lemon and find out for yourself. The books can't do that for you. They can encourage you and lead you up to that point, but their usefulness ends there - and in fact I'd even say much of what you've learned could be a hindrance to you in taking that final step. The taste of the lemon (and ONLY that)is what I call Buddha Nature, and it is non-dualistic (no taster/lemon distintion - no subject/object). It is what I often call 'Just THIS!' When experienced it has no name, no description - it is Just THIS! Later we put names on it and give it a description - but then it is not the thing itself (Just THIS!), it is our description of it. It is what all the books you have read are trying to do. IMO the image you described below as called mental-integration-itself is illusory - samsara. As soon as you become aware of it as something that seems to be an ...image inside my head, I can see all parts of the image simultaneously because something in me is integrating the parts of the image in some way. What you are describing here is still dualistic - there is a you, you have a head, your head has an inside, this image is located
Re: [Zen] Re: Old Zen, New Zen
whenever I post, let any with a response, respond... k, just watch out for yonyonson607 ;-) he may be a prime suspect *whaa whaaa whaa* On 10/6/12, Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: yonyonson604, I'm assuming you've addressed this post to Kris so I'll let him respond. If you've addressed it to me let me know. ...and say hello to yonyonson602 and 603 for me too while you're at it. --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, yonyonson@... wrote: aren't appearances too, just THIS!? and hindrances for that matter? On 10/6/12, Kristopher Grey kris@... wrote: Self'/no-self', 'mind'/'no-mind' - such beliefs (or opinions if you prefer to think personal attachments differ from personal expressions of them) are hindrances, but being 'empty' can only appear to hinder. So long as such stories are appealing, you will pursue them. Doing so, one imagines the 'path' to appear long and narrow, and following it will appear to require great effort. Path defines self, self defines path. One in the same. All hindrances arise from thinking otherwise. KG On 10/6/2012 1:39 AM, Bill! wrote: The only hindrance to fully realizing Buddha Nature (IMO) is clinging to self...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, Kristopher Grey kris@ wrote: On 10/6/2012 1:09 AM, billsmart wrote: My practice is to continue to more completely bring no-mind (Buddha Nature) up off the cushion and more fully integrate it into my daily life. Seeing 'no-mind' as being more or less 'Buddha Nature than mind is the only hindrance to realizing life as the integral expression of this. Practice, wherever it may appear to lead, is non other than this, appearing as a form of expression. KG Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: Old Zen, New Zen
why did you not watch it bill!..can we drop the !... it's hard work sorry i thought you did! merle Merle, I didn't watch the video. I just guessed from the description. That sentence was just chum in the waters. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: so you did watch the german's jumping in the water bed...you told me NOT to send such stuff!...naughty you opening it up and peeking inside..merle I also like to jump on waterbeds from time to time. ...Bill!
Re: [Zen] Re: do i have a smile on my lips?
bill..that is truly beautiful..thank you for sharing!..i love it..makes my heart feel all warm and fuzzy!,,merle You do now! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: one for you Bill! question: do i have a smile on my lips?..merle
[Zen] Re: the zen marmalade story
Merle, PLEASE READ THIS POST CAREFULLY Don't take everything I say too seriously. I don't control the Zen Forum. I play in the Zen Forum. I did NOT watch the video of the waterbed. You should continue to do whatever you want to do. I appreciate your participation in the Zen Forum, as do I know a lot of others. And yes! Some people will like some posts and some won't. So what? I'm sure that's true of you too. You don't particularly like ALL the posts, do you? Its not a big deal. And yes! Do open ALL YOUR PRESENTS NOW! There might not be a later. What does it make a difference if you're SURPRISED NOW, or on Christmas? Make EVERY DAY Christmas! And yes! IMO you should get joy out of GROWING the oranges, and TENDING the trees, and PICKING the oranges, and SLICING them up, and COOKING them, and MAKING the marmalade, and BOTTLING (canning) it, and PUTTING THEM UP on the shelf, and KNOCKING ONE OVER, and CLEANING up the mess it made, and TAKING THEM DOWN, and OPENING the lids, and SPOONING OUT the marmalade, and SPREADING it on the bread, and EATING it, and CLEANING the dishes. You should get joy out of each and every one of these things as you do them NOW! I never watched the Germans jump on the waterbed and I never have tasted Seville orange marmalade, but I have read posts from Merle and am the better for it. That's good enough for me. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:   Bill!..then i mis- understood your posts and am truly sorry,..you did watch the germans jumping on the waterbed...  eh? what am i to do Bill!? .send stuff like that or not?.. .one member of the group wants this stuff  another does not. .i like to share. ..i get lots of of stuff from all over the world ..i do not give 2 hoots if folk do not want it. .some are delighted and tell me so...  so the marmalade story?  do i open my christmas presents NOW?  honestly Bill!. ..you remind me of when i was a kid. .mother was out of the house and i'd look in every nook and cranny till i found the presents for christmas and hence Bill!. .i spoilt my treat and had to play act the christmas surprise  the marmalade i have made only 7 jars there are more seville oranges on the tree. ..i will be making 32 pots of marmalade  i await till all the pots are made  now you are thinking where's the zen in this?  as the old saying goes..what goes round comes around the coming and going is irrelevant  when is not the question  NOW is not the answer  what is  is the taste  and the joy of preparing the 32 pots of marmalade  then seeing them all beautiful  lined up in a row upon the shelf of satisfaction of a job well done  you know the old song.? .there were 10 green bottles sitting on the wall  what would happen if one should accidentally fall?  i rest my weary head upon the shoulder of tomorrow  and pray that those gossamer wings however light by chance do not  knock one green bottle  and it would  fall i have faith in awaiting for that very unique moment  a truly earth shattering  zen marmalade! if you like seville marmalade you'll know what i mean!  merle  Merle, READ THIS POST CAREFULLY I NEVER said you posted 'crap' and I NEVER said you were 'off course' and I NEVER said you are not 'zen enough' - whatever that means. You continue to read my posts and then spit them back at me while interjecting some kind of personal references or inferences which I DID NOT MAKE. I said I was not interested in your recent posts becauseand then told you. I didn't say it was CRAP. I just said it didn't interest me. There are a lot of non-crap, very good things that don't interest me or at least prompt me to post on them. I asked you that if you thought you had a 'course' I'd like to know what your destination was. As for 'not zen enough', I NEVER said that either although even your post below implies you are living your life in the future, not NOW! My advise is don't wait for 20 days until the marmalade is ready. Spread your 'gossamer wings' NOW. ...Bill! I didn't say you 'were not zen enough'. From you post below I see some of your goals and plans, but I do not see what YOU ARE DOING NOW. --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: àyou said i was not zen enough ..as if you are an expert? àmy target at this moment is to bottle the seville marmalade i am in the process of makingààand 20 days down the track have it on toast in the morning àwhen i can zen through the day with my gossamer wings praying àmerle àyouMerle, Jim was asking for advice. I gave him a little peek at 'my way'. I don't think you're 'off course', but then having a course implies you have a destination, a target. Do you? If so what is
[Zen] Re: Old Zen, New Zen
Merle, I already told you why I didn't watch the video. The description didn't interest me. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:   why did you not watch it bill!..can we drop the !... it's hard work sorry i thought you did!  merle  Merle, I didn't watch the video. I just guessed from the description. That sentence was just chum in the waters. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: so you did watch the german's jumping in the water bed...you told me NOT to send such stuff!...naughty you opening it up and peeking inside..merle I also like to jump on waterbeds from time to time. ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] New Zen: on the run
what a wet blanket he is!. a nark to put in mildly! .evolve mr. guru embracing zen is NOT about sitting on tiny rubbery mats for 2/3 hours breathing in and out going blue in the face and getting blood clots in one's legs at the end of the day you embrace life with zen and practise on the run merle http://sweepingzen.com/zen-is-going-to-hell-and-its-the-boomers-fault ...Bill!
Re: [Zen] Re: I need some practice advice
a target: bull eye!..merle Merle, Jim was asking for advice. I gave him a little peek at 'my way'. I don't think you're 'off course', but then having a course implies you have a destination, a target. Do you? If so what is it? ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  we all have our own ways bill!..you who seem to think i'm off course ...as the old  song goes...  what ever gets you there go for it  merle...  Jim, Caveat: Everything I tell you is only my opinion. You've read a lot of books on what a lemon tastes like but now you need to bite into the lemon and find out for yourself. The books can't do that for you. They can encourage you and lead you up to that point, but their usefulness ends there - and in fact I'd even say much of what you've learned could be a hindrance to you in taking that final step. The taste of the lemon (and ONLY that)is what I call Buddha Nature, and it is non-dualistic (no taster/lemon distintion - no subject/object). It is what I often call 'Just THIS!' When experienced it has no name, no description - it is Just THIS! Later we put names on it and give it a description - but then it is not the thing itself (Just THIS!), it is our description of it. It is what all the books you have read are trying to do. IMO the image you described below as called mental-integration-itself is illusory - samsara. As soon as you become aware of it as something that seems to be an ...image inside my head, I can see all parts of the image simultaneously because something in me is integrating the parts of the image in some way. What you are describing here is still dualistic - there is a you, you have a head, your head has an inside, this image is located there, the image has parts, etc... The second description starts to move a little farther away from dualism: In a way, this transparent mental-integration-itself seems to be in front of the image. I then de-emphasize the image so it slips partly from awareness, while becoming more aware of the clear empty mental-integration-itself. A lot would depend on just what you meant by the phrase clear empty mental-integration-itself. If you are still clinging to a dualistic view of this, something like, 'I am sitting, and I experience an image, and that image has parts and then another image appears that I call the 'mental-integration' of that first image, and then the first image disappears from my awareness (or at least recedes into the background)- and this new image is EMPTY'.' I'd have to again ask, what do you mean by 'empty'? If you mean this new image that you are now aware of that exists inside you has no form, that's one thing. If you mean 'all is empty', no me, no image, Just EMPTINESS!, then that is another thing entirely. Again, all this is just IMO. Before I could really offer you any advice I'd have to know what you mean by 'mediation'. How do you do about that? If you could explain that a little more it would help. Here's an example of how I sit (zazen): I start sitting by counting my breathes, then following my breathes and then I drop the following and there is Just THIS!. In Japanese this is called 'shikantaza' which literally means 'just sit' or is sometimes translated as 'no mind'. What I do NOT do is try to visualize anything or think of anything (like a 'safe place' or a mantra), although I know these are styles of meditation. Thanks, and WELCOME TO THE ZEN FORUM! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, jfnewell7 jfnewell7@ wrote: I need some practice advice. In my meditation, I have become aware of something I will call mental-integration-itself although those words are only an approximation. I will therefore report some background and details, below, to see if I can get this across. What I need is advice on whether or not mental-integration-itself is enough on the path that I should spend a lot of time noticing it. Also, of course, if anyone sees a way I can improve on the mental-integration-itself awareness I have so far, I would be grateful. Both Dzogchen and Zen say that somehow, satori and samsara are the same. I have tried for years to understand what that would feel like. Here are a several examples from a vast number of comments: Cleary, Thomas, trans. (2002) SECRETS OF THE BLUE CLIFF RECORD, ZEN COMMENTS BY HAKUIN AND TENKEI, Boston London: Shambhala Page 76, If potential does not leave a static position, it falls into a sea of poison ... [Hakuin] The entirety of this introduction applies to the example. `Potential' is what appears before being expressed in words; the `static position' is the cave of satori... [Tenkei] If you realize an awakening but do not eliminate leaking of views, you stick to the absolute stasis of transcendence in the realm of
Re: [Zen] Re: Old Zen, New Zen
right...so you judge a book by it's cover too?,,merle Merle, I already told you why I didn't watch the video. The description didn't interest me. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:   why did you not watch it bill!..can we drop the !... it's hard work sorry i thought you did!  merle  Merle, I didn't watch the video. I just guessed from the description. That sentence was just chum in the waters. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: so you did watch the german's jumping in the water bed...you told me NOT to send such stuff!...naughty you opening it up and peeking inside..merle I also like to jump on waterbeds from time to time. ...Bill!
[Zen] Re: New Zen: on the run
Merle, Don't hold back on this. Tell us what you really think...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: what a wet blanket he is!. a nark to put in mildly! .evolve mr. guru  embracing zen is NOT about sitting on tiny rubbery  mats for 2/3 hours  breathing in and out going blue in the face and getting blood clots in one's legs at the end of the day  you embrace life with zen  and practise on the run  merle http://sweepingzen.com/zen-is-going-to-hell-and-its-the-boomers-fault  ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Old Zen, New Zen
Merle, Absolutely! Or in this case the blurb on the inside and back of its jacket...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  right...so you judge a book by it's cover too?,,merle  Merle, I already told you why I didn't watch the video. The description didn't interest me. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ààwhy did you not watch it bill!..can we drop the !... it's hard work sorry i thought you did! àmerle àMerle, I didn't watch the video. I just guessed from the description. That sentence was just chum in the waters. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: so you did watch the german's jumping in the water bed...you told me NOT to send such stuff!...naughty you opening it up and peeking inside..merle I also like to jump on waterbeds from time to time. ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] New Zen :NOW
jesus..that's bloody insight for ya! the old saying goes: never judge a book by it's cover and a man by his clothes merle Merle, Absolutely! Or in this case the blurb on the inside and back of its jacket...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  right...so you judge a book by it's cover too?,,merle  Merle, I already told you why I didn't watch the video. The description didn't interest me. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:   why did you not watch it bill!..can we drop the !... it's hard work sorry i thought you did!  merle  Merle, I didn't watch the video. I just guessed from the description. That sentence was just chum in the waters. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: so you did watch the german's jumping in the water bed...you told me NOT to send such stuff!...naughty you opening it up and peeking inside..merle I also like to jump on waterbeds from time to time. ...Bill!
[Zen] Baby Photo
...Bill!
[Zen] Re: the zen marmalade story: NOW
Merle, There is only NOW! The past is a memory and the future is a projection - all illusory. Only NOW! Just THIS! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  jesus bill..you sound like your building up to something big!  woh !..an orgasm?..sorry couldn't resist. ..take it easy. .you just might fall off your perch NOW... when is NOW?  NOW where are you?. .I  AM calling you NOW who are you NOW? what about NOW and THEN? BEFORE and AFTER?  i'm off to do a NOW toilet break!  enjoy your weekend with gusto Bill! .marmalade is a british invention i believe. .correct me if i am wrong. .english breakfast tea and seville orange marmalade WOH! merle  Merle, PLEASE READ THIS POST CAREFULLY Don't take everything I say too seriously. I don't control the Zen Forum. I play in the Zen Forum. I did NOT watch the video of the waterbed. You should continue to do whatever you want to do. I appreciate your participation in the Zen Forum, as do I know a lot of others. And yes! Some people will like some posts and some won't. So what? I'm sure that's true of you too. You don't particularly like ALL the posts, do you? Its not a big deal. And yes! Do open ALL YOUR PRESENTS NOW! There might not be a later. What does it make a difference if you're SURPRISED NOW, or on Christmas? Make EVERY DAY Christmas! And yes! IMO you should get joy out of GROWING the oranges, and TENDING the trees, and PICKING the oranges, and SLICING them up, and COOKING them, and MAKING the marmalade, and BOTTLING (canning) it, and PUTTING THEM UP on the shelf, and KNOCKING ONE OVER, and CLEANING up the mess it made, and TAKING THEM DOWN, and OPENING the lids, and SPOONING OUT the marmalade, and SPREADING it on the bread, and EATING it, and CLEANING the dishes. You should get joy out of each and every one of these things as you do them NOW! I never watched the Germans jump on the waterbed and I never have tasted Seville orange marmalade, but I have read posts from Merle and am the better for it. That's good enough for me. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ààBill!..then i mis- understood your posts and am truly sorry,..you did watch the germans jumping on the waterbed... àeh? what am i to do Bill!? .send stuff like that or not?.. .one member of the group wants this stuff àanother does not. .i like to share. ..i get lots of of stuff from all over the world ..i do not give 2 hoots if folk do not want it. .some are delighted and tell me so... àso the marmalade story? àdo i open my christmas presents NOW? àhonestly Bill!. ..you remind me of when i was a kid. .mother was out of the house and i'd look in every nook and cranny till i found the presents for christmas and hence Bill!. .i spoilt my treat and had to play act the christmas surprise àthe marmalade i have made only 7 jars there are more seville oranges on the tree. ..i will be making 32 pots of marmalade ài await till all the pots are made ànow you are thinking where's the zen in this? àas the old saying goes..what goes round comes around the coming and going is irrelevant àwhen is not the question àNOW is not the answer àwhat isààis the taste àand the joy of preparing the 32 pots of marmalade àthen seeing them all beautiful àlined up in a row upon the shelf of satisfaction of a job well done àyou know the old song.? .there were 10 green bottles sitting on the wall àwhat would happen if one should accidentally fall? ài rest my weary head upon the shoulder of tomorrow àand pray that those gossamer wings however light by chance do not àknock one green bottle àand it would àfall i have faith in awaiting for that very unique moment àa truly earth shattering àzen marmalade! if you like seville marmalade you'll know what i mean! àmerle àMerle, READ THIS POST CAREFULLY I NEVER said you posted 'crap' and I NEVER said you were 'off course' and I NEVER said you are not 'zen enough' - whatever that means. You continue to read my posts and then spit them back at me while interjecting some kind of personal references or inferences which I DID NOT MAKE. I said I was not interested in your recent posts becauseand then told you. I didn't say it was CRAP. I just said it didn't interest me. There are a lot of non-crap, very good things that don't interest me or at least prompt me to post on them. I asked you that if you thought you had a 'course' I'd like to know what your destination was. As for 'not zen enough', I NEVER said that either although even your post below implies you are living your
Re: [Zen] Re: New Zen: on the run
later Bill!... the dinner gong has rung NOW! ..take it easy. you you old devil you! your playing mind games remember the old song: mind games: john lennon? ..merle Merle, Don't hold back on this. Tell us what you really think...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: what a wet blanket he is!. a nark to put in mildly! .evolve mr. guru  embracing zen is NOT about sitting on tiny rubbery  mats for 2/3 hours  breathing in and out going blue in the face and getting blood clots in one's legs at the end of the day  you embrace life with zen  and practise on the run  merle http://sweepingzen.com/zen-is-going-to-hell-and-its-the-boomers-fault  ...Bill!
[Zen] Fw: Island Quotes By Aldous Huxley
chew over these..merle http://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/3269256-island for one moment our lives met our souls touched oscar wilde
[Zen] Island ( 1962 ) by Aldous Huxley
read this book?bill!..merle http://www.huxley.net/island/ for one moment our lives met our souls touched oscar wilde
[Zen] John Lennon: Mind Games - YouTube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrD1KihFyj0 for one moment our lives met our souls touched oscar wilde
[Zen] Re: New Zen :NOW
Merle, Like you say, that's an old saying - an old, old saying, and you know what they say about old sayings, There are two kinds of people in this world: those that believe old sayings and those that don't. Seriously though I didn't judge the video, I made a decision (judgement) based on the description. I decided not to view it. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  jesus..that's bloody insight for ya!  the old saying goes: never judge a book by it's cover and a man by his clothes merle  Merle, Absolutely! Or in this case the blurb on the inside and back of its jacket...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: àright...so you judge a book by it's cover too?,,merle àMerle, I already told you why I didn't watch the video. The description didn't interest me. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃâàÃâàwhy did you not watch it bill!..can we drop the !... it's hard work sorry i thought you did! Ãâàmerle ÃâàMerle, I didn't watch the video. I just guessed from the description. That sentence was just chum in the waters. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: so you did watch the german's jumping in the water bed...you told me NOT to send such stuff!...naughty you opening it up and peeking inside..merle I also like to jump on waterbeds from time to time. ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Baby Photo
beautiful..merle ...Bill!
Re: [Zen] Re: the zen marmalade story: NOW
good night...for NOW...merle Merle, There is only NOW! The past is a memory and the future is a projection - all illusory. Only NOW! Just THIS! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  jesus bill..you sound like your building up to something big!  woh !..an orgasm?..sorry couldn't resist. ..take it easy. .you just might fall off your perch NOW... when is NOW?  NOW where are you?. .I  AM calling you NOW who are you NOW? what about NOW and THEN? BEFORE and AFTER?  i'm off to do a NOW toilet break!  enjoy your weekend with gusto Bill! .marmalade is a british invention i believe. .correct me if i am wrong. .english breakfast tea and seville orange marmalade WOH! merle  Merle, PLEASE READ THIS POST CAREFULLY Don't take everything I say too seriously. I don't control the Zen Forum. I play in the Zen Forum. I did NOT watch the video of the waterbed. You should continue to do whatever you want to do. I appreciate your participation in the Zen Forum, as do I know a lot of others. And yes! Some people will like some posts and some won't. So what? I'm sure that's true of you too. You don't particularly like ALL the posts, do you? Its not a big deal. And yes! Do open ALL YOUR PRESENTS NOW! There might not be a later. What does it make a difference if you're SURPRISED NOW, or on Christmas? Make EVERY DAY Christmas! And yes! IMO you should get joy out of GROWING the oranges, and TENDING the trees, and PICKING the oranges, and SLICING them up, and COOKING them, and MAKING the marmalade, and BOTTLING (canning) it, and PUTTING THEM UP on the shelf, and KNOCKING ONE OVER, and CLEANING up the mess it made, and TAKING THEM DOWN, and OPENING the lids, and SPOONING OUT the marmalade, and SPREADING it on the bread, and EATING it, and CLEANING the dishes. You should get joy out of each and every one of these things as you do them NOW! I never watched the Germans jump on the waterbed and I never have tasted Seville orange marmalade, but I have read posts from Merle and am the better for it. That's good enough for me. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:   Bill!..then i mis- understood your posts and am truly sorry,..you did watch the germans jumping on the waterbed...  eh? what am i to do Bill!? .send stuff like that or not?.. .one member of the group wants this stuff  another does not. .i like to share. ..i get lots of of stuff from all over the world ..i do not give 2 hoots if folk do not want it. .some are delighted and tell me so...  so the marmalade story?  do i open my christmas presents NOW?  honestly Bill!. ..you remind me of when i was a kid. .mother was out of the house and i'd look in every nook and cranny till i found the presents for christmas and hence Bill!. .i spoilt my treat and had to play act the christmas surprise  the marmalade i have made only 7 jars there are more seville oranges on the tree. ..i will be making 32 pots of marmalade  i await till all the pots are made  now you are thinking where's the zen in this?  as the old saying goes..what goes round comes around the coming and going is irrelevant  when is not the question  NOW is not the answer  what is  is the taste  and the joy of preparing the 32 pots of marmalade  then seeing them all beautiful  lined up in a row upon the shelf of satisfaction of a job well done  you know the old song.? .there were 10 green bottles sitting on the wall  what would happen if one should accidentally fall?  i rest my weary head upon the shoulder of tomorrow  and pray that those gossamer wings however light by chance do not  knock one green bottle  and it would  fall i have faith in awaiting for that very unique moment  a truly earth shattering  zen marmalade! if you like seville marmalade you'll know what i mean!  merle  Merle, READ THIS POST CAREFULLY I NEVER said you posted 'crap' and I NEVER said you were 'off course' and I NEVER said you are not 'zen enough' - whatever that means. You continue to read my posts and then spit them back at me while interjecting some kind of personal references or inferences which I DID NOT MAKE. I said I was not interested in your recent posts becauseand then told you. I didn't say it was CRAP. I just said it didn't interest me. There are a lot of non-crap, very good things that don't interest me or at least prompt me to post on them. I asked you that if you thought you had a 'course' I'd like to know what your destination was. As for 'not zen enough', I NEVER said that either although even your post
[Zen] Re: Island ( 1962 ) by Aldous Huxley
What book? --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: read this book?bill!..merle http://www.huxley.net/island/ for one moment our lives met our souls touched oscar wilde Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Fw: [Zen] Re: Island ( 1962 ) by Aldous Huxley
No, I have not read the book ISLAND. I have read a couple others by Huxley: ANIMAL FARM and 1984...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: What book? http://www.huxley.net/island/ merle Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Fw: [Zen] Re: Island ( 1962 ) by Aldous Huxley
Merle, I have not read ISLAND. I have read the following books by Aldous Huxley: - BRAVE NEW WORLD - EYELESS IN GAZA - DOORS OF PERCEPTION ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: What book? http://www.huxley.net/island/ merle Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Baby Photo
LOL! Merle Sensei is getting Bill to loosen up and enjoy himself! He's coming back to play in the world of forms and causality again.. This btw is my baby photo too, and everyone else's. We were all born in the same crib... Edgar On Oct 6, 2012, at 4:02 AM, Bill! wrote: ...Bill!
[Zen] Hisorty
Even Calvin and Hobbes know this... ...Bill!
Re: [Zen] Re: Island ( 1962 ) by Aldous Huxley
i suggest you do bill!... merle Merle, I have not read ISLAND. I have read the following books by Aldous Huxley: - BRAVE NEW WORLD - EYELESS IN GAZA - DOORS OF PERCEPTION ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: What book? http://www.huxley.net/island/ merle
Re: [Zen] Hisorty
HISTORY...Please!..merle Subject: [Zen] Hisorty Even Calvin and Hobbes know this... ...Bill!
Re: [Zen] Baby Photo
indeed..merle LOL! Merle Sensei is getting Bill to loosen up and enjoy himself! He's coming back to play in the world of forms and causality again.. This btw is my baby photo too, and everyone else's. We were all born in the same crib... Edgar On Oct 6, 2012, at 4:02 AM, Bill! wrote: ...Bill!
Re: [Zen] Hisorty
Bill, Actually more to the point the entire past is an illusion that exists only as a logical projection from the present... Edgar On Oct 6, 2012, at 8:33 AM, Bill! wrote: Even Calvin and Hobbes know this... ...Bill!
[Zen] Elder's Meditation of the Day - October 6
Elder's Meditation of the Day - October 6 Lots of people hardly ever feel real soil under their feet, see plants grow except in flower pots, or get far enough beyond the street light to catch the enchantment of a night sky studded with stars. When people live far from scenes of the Great Spirit's making, it's easy for them to forget His laws. -- Tatanga Mani (Walking Buffalo), STONEY Nature is life's greatest teacher. The natural laws are hidden in nature. Hidden are solutions to everyday problems such as; conflict resolution, how to forgive, lessons about differences, how to manage organizations, how to think. Hidden are feelings. You can look at something and you will feel it. At night, have you ever looked at the sky when there are no clouds? As you look at all the stars, your heart will become very joyful. You will walk away feeling joyful and peaceful. We need to visit nature so we can see and feel these things.
[Zen] I DID IT!...
pWays to Earn Extra Moneybra href=http://angelamilesstudio.com/boardbathroom/philipgordon76/;http://angelamilesstudio.com/boardbathroom/philipgordon76//a/p
Re: [Zen] Re: Old Zen, New Zen
It appears so. KG On 10/6/2012 2:46 AM, yonyon...@gmail.com wrote: aren't appearances too, just THIS!? and hindrances for that matter? On 10/6/12, Kristopher Grey k...@kgrey.com mailto:kris%40kgrey.com wrote: Self'/no-self', 'mind'/'no-mind' - such beliefs (or opinions if you prefer to think personal attachments differ from personal expressions of them) are hindrances, but being 'empty' can only appear to hinder. So long as such stories are appealing, you will pursue them. Doing so, one imagines the 'path' to appear long and narrow, and following it will appear to require great effort. Path defines self, self defines path. One in the same. All hindrances arise from thinking otherwise. KG On 10/6/2012 1:39 AM, Bill! wrote: The only hindrance to fully realizing Buddha Nature (IMO) is clinging to self...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, Kristopher Grey kris@... wrote: On 10/6/2012 1:09 AM, billsmart wrote: My practice is to continue to more completely bring no-mind (Buddha Nature) up off the cushion and more fully integrate it into my daily life. Seeing 'no-mind' as being more or less 'Buddha Nature than mind is the only hindrance to realizing life as the integral expression of this. Practice, wherever it may appear to lead, is non other than this, appearing as a form of expression. KG
Re: [Zen] Re: Island ( 1962 ) by Aldous Huxley
read the island..the ones you have read are great but the island is a masterpiece! .i read it as a kiddy donkey's years ago picked it at library thinking it was a children's adventure book and re read it several times as an adult..brilliant. .also take the time out to read perennial philosophy. .huxley is a genius and my favourite of all minds .him and herman hesse so what is it you wish to know? my take on zen? that will have to come in a story form..are you prepared to do it in instalments? i type with one finger...i am not a typist..i hate it boring..one finger will do for me! the story of SOHO... yes one could translate that into ZEN..and yes it is so me i wrote the 17 page story some 25 years ago liken to a mad hatter's tea party only no white rabbit...the main character has the ability to be invisible at will merle Merle, I have not read ISLAND. I have read the following books by Aldous Huxley: - BRAVE NEW WORLD - EYELESS IN GAZA - DOORS OF PERCEPTION ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: What book? http://www.huxley.net/island/ merle
[Zen] truth
jala-uddin rumi sell your cleverness and buy bewilderment; cleverness is mere opinion, bewilderment is intuition Merle www.wix.com/merlewiitpom/1
[Zen] Re: I need some practice advice
Dear Cousin Merle, Pul-eeeze don't use the word in this way. It makes my toupee shrivel. There are no belts in Zen practice: we may be Kung Fu, but have no belts. The breathing should be unrestricted about the hara, the tan tien. Only belt is: A belt, I'll give you!: Or 20, or 40. ;-) The marmalade sounds wonderful. I talked by radio today with a Peach Tree farmer in Georgia (the US State). His crop was overwhelming this year. His wife is making peach pies. He said he'll be eating peach pie through January, probably: I guess she freezes some, but only so many. Too much of a good thing would be just that (I should have given him my mailing address). Zen is not an adjective, except in cases like: zen practice, zen sitting cushion, zen meditation, zen teacher, zen mind, zen koan, zen tradition, Zen history, zen literature, zen temple altar, zen robes, zen monk, zen nun, zen layperson, zen monastery, zen center, zen sangha, and other zen things. Ow, I'm sorry I started that list. A person is not Zen: You are not zen, I am not zen. Dang, there goes my toupee, again (I guess because the very notion wrinkles my cranium, and what's under it). It's media talk. Talk is cheap, but we pay for it. And it's mostly unreal, with no referent. Marmalade and Peach Pie are real. All too real. And all too absent, here. ;-) --Joe / Zen Woodworker Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: you said i was not zen enough ..as if you are an expert? Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Old Zen, New Zen
Yes. But who is it who is aware of that identity? Maybe nobody. That one is worth finding. That's why we practice. But not everyone -- and not everyone here -- practices. It's worthwhile to do so, in order to appreciate the identities, and the differences. Else, it's all a mish-mash, and too hopelessly theoretical, intellectual, impractical, selfish, and unreal. Only a note in passing. Great to see you here! --Joe yonyonson@... wrote: aren't appearances too, just THIS!? and hindrances for that matter? Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Old Zen, New Zen
Yonyonson, That's higher than I can count, anyway. A sweetheart of mine had a cat named Pretty602, a female tortie. Actually, all torties are female, it's a sex-linked fur expression. --Joe601/half-a-dozen-of-another yonyonson@... wrote: k, just watch out for yonyonson607 ;-) he may be a prime suspect *whaa whaaa whaa* Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: New Zen :NOW
Merle, Clothes make the Man!; but I prefer naked books. I keep the dust jackets in a pile, at the city recycling and reclamation center. They get in the way of my reading. Maybe I should pile them at home for resale; a used book is worth more if it has its jacket. A man in this hot desert is usually too warm with a jacket. --Joe / S. Arizona Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: the old saying goes: never judge a book by it's cover and a man by his clothes Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Baby Photo
Bill!, Please give the photographer some credit! [even if (s)he'd prefer Cash]. --Joe Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Here's an old photograph of me. ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: New Zen: on the run
Merle, WHAT mind? John didn't get that _that_ is the game. Maybe didn't live long enuf. Or, look at it a different way. --Joe PS (song OK, as far as it goes/went). Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: remember the old song: mind games: john lennon? Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Baby Photo
Big-Bang is a theory that will probably be replaced nine times in the next millennium. Ad infinitum. Wait and see! And, the photo might be concocted. Some latter-day wannabee Immortal PhotoShopped it, I suspect. ;-) --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: This btw is my baby photo too, and everyone else's. We were all born in the same crib... Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Fw: BLIND
CLICK ON LINK BELOW http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hzgzim5m7oU
[Zen] Re: I need some practice advice
Thank you for your thoughts. I think you are right, for after all, I am still being dualistic. The problem is that I can't find the lemon to bite into. For example, I have three kinds of emptiness meditations, but none of them could be correct because none of them enlighten me. Although they are incorrect, you asked about how I meditate, so I will briefly describe them. 1. Ordinary space. If I sit and don't think, there is a space without thoughts, relaxation, etc.. The space is a little like when I look at the sky. However, that hasn't enlightened me. 2. Then there is subtle space, which I discovered by trying to see what is behind my head. It is much subtler than ordinary space, not really so much seen as just sort of something I am aware of. Compared with it, ordinary space is coarse and heavy. 3. Then there is an emptiness I don't have control of, but it hasn't enlightened me. In it, I suddenly discovered that I shrunk to a point and disappeared, and am now re-expanding into my ordinary field of awareness. So it is a kind of discontinuity of consciousness - more than something like sleep. When it happens, there are unexpected ideas in my head when I have returned from the discontinuity. But none of those are right, because they didn't cause me to become enlightened. Jim --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, billsmart BillSmart@... wrote: Jim, Caveat: Everything I tell you is only my opinion. You've read a lot of books on what a lemon tastes like but now you need to bite into the lemon and find out for yourself. The books can't do that for you. They can encourage you and lead you up to that point, but their usefulness ends there - and in fact I'd even say much of what you've learned could be a hindrance to you in taking that final step. The taste of the lemon (and ONLY that)is what I call Buddha Nature, and it is non-dualistic (no taster/lemon distintion - no subject/object). It is what I often call 'Just THIS!' When experienced it has no name, no description - it is Just THIS! Later we put names on it and give it a description - but then it is not the thing itself (Just THIS!), it is our description of it. It is what all the books you have read are trying to do. IMO the image you described below as called mental-integration-itself is illusory - samsara. As soon as you become aware of it as something that seems to be an ...image inside my head, I can see all parts of the image simultaneously because something in me is integrating the parts of the image in some way. What you are describing here is still dualistic - there is a you, you have a head, your head has an inside, this image is located there, the image has parts, etc... The second description starts to move a little farther away from dualism: In a way, this transparent mental-integration-itself seems to be in front of the image. I then de-emphasize the image so it slips partly from awareness, while becoming more aware of the clear empty mental-integration-itself. A lot would depend on just what you meant by the phrase clear empty mental-integration-itself. If you are still clinging to a dualistic view of this, something like, 'I am sitting, and I experience an image, and that image has parts and then another image appears that I call the 'mental-integration' of that first image, and then the first image disappears from my awareness (or at least recedes into the background)- and this new image is EMPTY'.' I'd have to again ask, what do you mean by 'empty'? If you mean this new image that you are now aware of that exists inside you has no form, that's one thing. If you mean 'all is empty', no me, no image, Just EMPTINESS!, then that is another thing entirely. Again, all this is just IMO. Before I could really offer you any advice I'd have to know what you mean by 'mediation'. How do you do about that? If you could explain that a little more it would help. Here's an example of how I sit (zazen): I start sitting by counting my breathes, then following my breathes and then I drop the following and there is Just THIS!. In Japanese this is called 'shikantaza' which literally means 'just sit' or is sometimes translated as 'no mind'. What I do NOT do is try to visualize anything or think of anything (like a 'safe place' or a mantra), although I know these are styles of meditation. Thanks, and WELCOME TO THE ZEN FORUM! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, jfnewell7 jfnewell7@ wrote: I need some practice advice. In my meditation, I have become aware of something I will call mental-integration-itself although those words are only an approximation. I will therefore report some background and details, below, to see if I can get this across. What I need is advice on whether or not mental-integration-itself is enough on the path that I should spend a lot of time noticing it. Also, of course,
Re: [Zen] Re: I need some practice advice
you might already be enlightened have you considered this?. .searching for the light with a broomstick is about what you seem to be doing here merle Thank you for your thoughts. I think you are right, for after all, I am still being dualistic. The problem is that I can't find the lemon to bite into. For example, I have three kinds of emptiness meditations, but none of them could be correct because none of them enlighten me. Although they are incorrect, you asked about how I meditate, so I will briefly describe them. 1. Ordinary space. If I sit and don't think, there is a space without thoughts, relaxation, etc.. The space is a little like when I look at the sky. However, that hasn't enlightened me. 2. Then there is subtle space, which I discovered by trying to see what is behind my head. It is much subtler than ordinary space, not really so much seen as just sort of something I am aware of. Compared with it, ordinary space is coarse and heavy. 3. Then there is an emptiness I don't have control of, but it hasn't enlightened me. In it, I suddenly discovered that I shrunk to a point and disappeared, and am now re-expanding into my ordinary field of awareness. So it is a kind of discontinuity of consciousness - more than something like sleep. When it happens, there are unexpected ideas in my head when I have returned from the discontinuity. But none of those are right, because they didn't cause me to become enlightened. Jim --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, billsmart BillSmart@... wrote: Jim, Caveat: Everything I tell you is only my opinion. You've read a lot of books on what a lemon tastes like but now you need to bite into the lemon and find out for yourself. The books can't do that for you. They can encourage you and lead you up to that point, but their usefulness ends there - and in fact I'd even say much of what you've learned could be a hindrance to you in taking that final step. The taste of the lemon (and ONLY that)is what I call Buddha Nature, and it is non-dualistic (no taster/lemon distintion - no subject/object). It is what I often call 'Just THIS!' When experienced it has no name, no description - it is Just THIS! Later we put names on it and give it a description - but then it is not the thing itself (Just THIS!), it is our description of it. It is what all the books you have read are trying to do. IMO the image you described below as called mental-integration-itself is illusory - samsara. As soon as you become aware of it as something that seems to be an ...image inside my head, I can see all parts of the image simultaneously because something in me is integrating the parts of the image in some way. What you are describing here is still dualistic - there is a you, you have a head, your head has an inside, this image is located there, the image has parts, etc... The second description starts to move a little farther away from dualism: In a way, this transparent mental-integration-itself seems to be in front of the image. I then de-emphasize the image so it slips partly from awareness, while becoming more aware of the clear empty mental-integration-itself. A lot would depend on just what you meant by the phrase clear empty mental-integration-itself. If you are still clinging to a dualistic view of this, something like, 'I am sitting, and I experience an image, and that image has parts and then another image appears that I call the 'mental-integration' of that first image, and then the first image disappears from my awareness (or at least recedes into the background)- and this new image is EMPTY'.' I'd have to again ask, what do you mean by 'empty'? If you mean this new image that you are now aware of that exists inside you has no form, that's one thing. If you mean 'all is empty', no me, no image, Just EMPTINESS!, then that is another thing entirely. Again, all this is just IMO. Before I could really offer you any advice I'd have to know what you mean by 'mediation'. How do you do about that? If you could explain that a little more it would help. Here's an example of how I sit (zazen): I start sitting by counting my breathes, then following my breathes and then I drop the following and there is Just THIS!. In Japanese this is called 'shikantaza' which literally means 'just sit' or is sometimes translated as 'no mind'. What I do NOT do is try to visualize anything or think of anything (like a 'safe place' or a mantra), although I know these are styles of meditation. Thanks, and WELCOME TO THE ZEN FORUM! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, jfnewell7 jfnewell7@ wrote: I need some practice advice. In my meditation, I have become aware of something I will call mental-integration-itself although those words are only an approximation. I will therefore report some background and details, below, to see if I can get this across.
Re: [Zen] Re: I need some practice advice
On 10/6/2012 10:58 PM, jfnewell7 wrote: But none of those are right, because they didn't cause me to become enlightened. Likewise then none are wrong, because none prevent realizing this. Realizing this, being a redundant (thus hopelessly dualistic) expression. This, however it may appear, is realization. Stories of personal enlightenment, are expressions of this. This becoming no more or less so for anyone, simply realized as such. Nothing gained, as nothing lacks. Cause and effect dualities can only appear to obscure this. Abandon your cause. Practice without intention. All perpetually reveals itself, as this. Seek none other. KG Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: the zen marmalade story: NOW
Yes, certainly, technically, if one is meditating and then thinks of the past or future, it tends to add some chaos to the meditation. However, I wonder if this as an absolute. In Stryke, Lucien and Takashi Ikemoto, (1965), ZEN: POEMS, PRAYERS, SSERMONS, ANECDOTES, INTERVIEWS, Garden City: Doubleday Anchor page 87: BANKEI: The bell rings, but you hear the sound before it rings. The mind that is aware of the bell before it rings is the Buddha-mind. If however you hear the bell and then say it is a bell, you are merely naming what's been born, a thing of no importance. I haven't experienced hearing things before they happen, so I don't understand very well what Bankei was saying. However, if we can see the future in the NOW, that changes things. This could tie in with some modern physics, or perhaps not. Some physicists are postulating that there is more then one time dimension. Nobody knows if it will turn out that they are right or wrong. There is one philosophical consideration. If we could not be directly aware of two or more different moments in time, it looks like we would be unable to detect motion, melodies, etc. which extend over time. But this whole thing is something I don't really understand. Jim --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Merle, There is only NOW! The past is a memory and the future is a projection - all illusory. Only NOW! Just THIS! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  jesus bill..you sound like your building up to something big!  woh !..an orgasm?..sorry couldn't resist. ..take it easy. .you just might fall off your perch NOW... when is NOW?  NOW where are you?. .I  AM calling you NOW who are you NOW? what about NOW and THEN? BEFORE and AFTER?  i'm off to do a NOW toilet break!  enjoy your weekend with gusto Bill! .marmalade is a british invention i believe. .correct me if i am wrong. .english breakfast tea and seville orange marmalade WOH! merle  Merle, PLEASE READ THIS POST CAREFULLY Don't take everything I say too seriously. I don't control the Zen Forum. I play in the Zen Forum. I did NOT watch the video of the waterbed. You should continue to do whatever you want to do. I appreciate your participation in the Zen Forum, as do I know a lot of others. And yes! Some people will like some posts and some won't. So what? I'm sure that's true of you too. You don't particularly like ALL the posts, do you? Its not a big deal. And yes! Do open ALL YOUR PRESENTS NOW! There might not be a later. What does it make a difference if you're SURPRISED NOW, or on Christmas? Make EVERY DAY Christmas! And yes! IMO you should get joy out of GROWING the oranges, and TENDING the trees, and PICKING the oranges, and SLICING them up, and COOKING them, and MAKING the marmalade, and BOTTLING (canning) it, and PUTTING THEM UP on the shelf, and KNOCKING ONE OVER, and CLEANING up the mess it made, and TAKING THEM DOWN, and OPENING the lids, and SPOONING OUT the marmalade, and SPREADING it on the bread, and EATING it, and CLEANING the dishes. You should get joy out of each and every one of these things as you do them NOW! I never watched the Germans jump on the waterbed and I never have tasted Seville orange marmalade, but I have read posts from Merle and am the better for it. That's good enough for me. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ààBill!..then i mis- understood your posts and am truly sorry,..you did watch the germans jumping on the waterbed... àeh? what am i to do Bill!? .send stuff like that or not?.. .one member of the group wants this stuff àanother does not. .i like to share. ..i get lots of of stuff from all over the world ..i do not give 2 hoots if folk do not want it. .some are delighted and tell me so... àso the marmalade story? àdo i open my christmas presents NOW? àhonestly Bill!. ..you remind me of when i was a kid. .mother was out of the house and i'd look in every nook and cranny till i found the presents for christmas and hence Bill!. .i spoilt my treat and had to play act the christmas surprise àthe marmalade i have made only 7 jars there are more seville oranges on the tree. ..i will be making 32 pots of marmalade ài await till all the pots are made ànow you are thinking where's the zen in this? àas the old saying goes..what goes round comes around the coming and going is irrelevant àwhen is not the question àNOW is not the answer àwhat isààis the taste àand the joy of preparing the 32 pots of marmalade àthen seeing them all beautiful àlined
[Zen] Re: I need some practice advice
I don't see how. There are good teachers who can do a lot of things I can't do. Jim --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  you might already be enlightened have you considered this?. .searching for the light with a broomstick is about what you seem to be doing here merle  Thank you for your thoughts. I think you are right, for after all, I am still being dualistic. The problem is that I can't find the lemon to bite into. For example, I have three kinds of emptiness meditations, but none of them could be correct because none of them enlighten me. Although they are incorrect, you asked about how I meditate, so I will briefly describe them. 1. Ordinary space. If I sit and don't think, there is a space without thoughts, relaxation, etc.. The space is a little like when I look at the sky. However, that hasn't enlightened me. 2. Then there is subtle space, which I discovered by trying to see what is behind my head. It is much subtler than ordinary space, not really so much seen as just sort of something I am aware of. Compared with it, ordinary space is coarse and heavy. 3. Then there is an emptiness I don't have control of, but it hasn't enlightened me. In it, I suddenly discovered that I shrunk to a point and disappeared, and am now re-expanding into my ordinary field of awareness. So it is a kind of discontinuity of consciousness - more than something like sleep. When it happens, there are unexpected ideas in my head when I have returned from the discontinuity. But none of those are right, because they didn't cause me to become enlightened. Jim --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, billsmart BillSmart@ wrote: Jim, Caveat: Everything I tell you is only my opinion. You've read a lot of books on what a lemon tastes like but now you need to bite into the lemon and find out for yourself. The books can't do that for you. They can encourage you and lead you up to that point, but their usefulness ends there - and in fact I'd even say much of what you've learned could be a hindrance to you in taking that final step. The taste of the lemon (and ONLY that)is what I call Buddha Nature, and it is non-dualistic (no taster/lemon distintion - no subject/object). It is what I often call 'Just THIS!' When experienced it has no name, no description - it is Just THIS! Later we put names on it and give it a description - but then it is not the thing itself (Just THIS!), it is our description of it. It is what all the books you have read are trying to do. IMO the image you described below as called mental-integration-itself is illusory - samsara. As soon as you become aware of it as something that seems to be an ...image inside my head, I can see all parts of the image simultaneously because something in me is integrating the parts of the image in some way. What you are describing here is still dualistic - there is a you, you have a head, your head has an inside, this image is located there, the image has parts, etc... The second description starts to move a little farther away from dualism: In a way, this transparent mental-integration-itself seems to be in front of the image. I then de-emphasize the image so it slips partly from awareness, while becoming more aware of the clear empty mental-integration-itself. A lot would depend on just what you meant by the phrase clear empty mental-integration-itself. If you are still clinging to a dualistic view of this, something like, 'I am sitting, and I experience an image, and that image has parts and then another image appears that I call the 'mental-integration' of that first image, and then the first image disappears from my awareness (or at least recedes into the background)- and this new image is EMPTY'.' I'd have to again ask, what do you mean by 'empty'? If you mean this new image that you are now aware of that exists inside you has no form, that's one thing. If you mean 'all is empty', no me, no image, Just EMPTINESS!, then that is another thing entirely. Again, all this is just IMO. Before I could really offer you any advice I'd have to know what you mean by 'mediation'. How do you do about that? If you could explain that a little more it would help. Here's an example of how I sit (zazen): I start sitting by counting my breathes, then following my breathes and then I drop the following and there is Just THIS!. In Japanese this is called 'shikantaza' which literally means 'just sit' or is sometimes translated as 'no mind'. What I do NOT do is try to visualize anything or think of anything (like a 'safe place' or a mantra), although I know these are styles of meditation. Thanks, and WELCOME TO THE ZEN FORUM! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, jfnewell7 jfnewell7@ wrote: I
Re: [Zen] Re: I need some practice advice
Darkness cannot be seen, as nothing presents but what is imagined absent. KG On 10/6/2012 11:03 PM, Merle Lester wrote: you might already be enlightened have you considered this?. .searching for the light with a broomstick is about what you seem to be doing here merle Thank you for your thoughts. I think you are right, for after all, I am still being dualistic. The problem is that I can't find the lemon to bite into. For example, I have three kinds of emptiness meditations, but none of them could be correct because none of them enlighten me. Although they are incorrect, you asked about how I meditate, so I will briefly describe them. 1. Ordinary space. If I sit and don't think, there is a space without thoughts, relaxation, etc.. The space is a little like when I look at the sky. However, that hasn't enlightened me. 2. Then there is subtle space, which I discovered by trying to see what is behind my head. It is much subtler than ordinary space, not really so much seen as just sort of something I am aware of. Compared with it, ordinary space is coarse and heavy. 3. Then there is an emptiness I don't have control of, but it hasn't enlightened me. In it, I suddenly discovered that I shrunk to a point and disappeared, and am now re-expanding into my ordinary field of awareness. So it is a kind of discontinuity of consciousness - more than something like sleep. When it happens, there are unexpected ideas in my head when I have returned from the discontinuity. But none of those are right, because they didn't cause me to become enlightened. Jim --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, billsmart BillSmart@... wrote: Jim, Caveat: Everything I tell you is only my opinion. You've read a lot of books on what a lemon tastes like but now you need to bite into the lemon and find out for yourself. The books can't do that for you. They can encourage you and lead you up to that point, but their usefulness ends there - and in fact I'd even say much of what you've learned could be a hindrance to you in taking that final step. The taste of the lemon (and ONLY that)is what I call Buddha Nature, and it is non-dualistic (no taster/lemon distintion - no subject/object). It is what I often call 'Just THIS!' When experienced it has no name, no description - it is Just THIS! Later we put names on it and give it a description - but then it is not the thing itself (Just THIS!), it is our description of it. It is what all the books you have read are trying to do. IMO the image you described below as called mental-integration-itself is illusory - samsara. As soon as you become aware of it as something that seems to be an ...image inside my head, I can see all parts of the image simultaneously because something in me is integrating the parts of the image in some way. What you are describing here is still dualistic - there is a you, you have a head, your head has an inside, this image is located there, the image has parts, etc... The second description starts to move a little farther away from dualism: In a way, this transparent mental-integration-itself seems to be in front of the image. I then de-emphasize the image so it slips partly from awareness, while becoming more aware of the clear empty mental-integration-itself. A lot would depend on just what you meant by the phrase clear empty mental-integration-itself. If you are still clinging to a dualistic view of this, something like, 'I am sitting, and I experience an image, and that image has parts and then another image appears that I call the 'mental-integration' of that first image, and then the first image disappears from my awareness (or at least recedes into the background)- and this new image is EMPTY'.' I'd have to again ask, what do you mean by 'empty'? If you mean this new image that you are now aware of that exists inside you has no form, that's one thing. If you mean 'all is empty', no me, no image, Just EMPTINESS!, then that is another thing entirely. Again, all this is just IMO. Before I could really offer you any advice I'd have to know what you mean by 'mediation'. How do you do about that? If you could explain that a little more it would help. Here's an example of how I sit (zazen): I start sitting by counting my breathes, then following my breathes and then I drop the following and there is Just THIS!. In Japanese this is called 'shikantaza' which literally means 'just sit' or is sometimes translated as 'no mind'. What I do NOT do is try to visualize anything or think of anything (like a 'safe place' or a mantra), although I know these are styles of meditation. Thanks, and WELCOME TO THE ZEN FORUM! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, jfnewell7 jfnewell7@ wrote: I need some practice advice. In my meditation, I have become aware of something I will call mental-integration-itself
Re: [Zen] Re: the zen marmalade story: NOW
On 10/6/2012 11:25 PM, jfnewell7 wrote:
However, if we can see the future in the NOW, that changes things.
Whether we can or can't is moot, as the future is presently imagined,
and the past is presently re-imagined ('re' indicating only a
redundancy/duality mind uses differentiate various forms of the same
function).
All that changes is how we imagine this to have been/to be/to become.
There is no other way than this.
KG
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Re: [Zen] Re: the zen marmalade story: NOW
On 10/6/2012 11:25 PM, jfnewell7 wrote: But this whole thing is something I don't really understand. That's it! Few realize this is not a problem. KG Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
