[Zen] (unknown)

[Bill!]

Suresh,

It's diffincult to know what to say to you in this situation.  I really have no 
idea how hard it is for you to deal with this kind of situation.  I am a parent 
myself and have raised 6 children.  They can be very trying sometimes 
especially as they get older but I have not had to deal with anything like 
you've described.

Just in general I think it's okay to let your child know when they have 
displeased you and even made you angry.  I don't think physical discipline 
works very well but must admit I have used it myself, mainly when I thought my 
child's actions were presenting a danger to themselves or someone or something 
else (like a pet).  But when I used physical discipline it was more to shock 
them, to get their attention then actually hurt them.  I also have found out 
that trying to best a child in a contest of wills is not a good idea.  They can 
be very stubborn sometimes and usually can outlast you, putting you in a 
situation that's not helpful to you or them.

I can only advise you to take some deep breaths, sit zazen if you can - even if 
only for a few minutes at a time, and try to find someway to get some help in 
dealing with your son.  You should put a priority on finding someway to carve 
out some time for yourself to be away from them, even if just for a couple 
hours.  The constant responsibility and challenges it sounds like you're facing 
can wear you down very easily.

The only other thing I can do is wish you luck and hope that you and your sons 
soon find yourself in better times.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, varamtha@... wrote:
>
> Dear sirs,
> 
> Today unfortunately I have beaten my younger child for not speaking. I become 
> very emotional. He is 7 years old, until last month at least he used to 
> parrot what we say and for his name, he will say his name.
> 
> For last one month he has stopped talking and all his needs are by just 
> indication or some sound. His schools and therapist complaint to us but can't 
> do by them selves.
> 
> He hit me first, that instigated my anger and I wanted to show my anger 
> controlled expecting at least a word to say daddy stop, but he did not. I 
> have holding for than 20 minutes, but all the time he cried but no word came 
> out of his mouth.
> 
> I am pained for not speaking and also pained because unnecessarily I have 
> tortured him.
> 
> I have asked forgiveness from him, but still he looks at me suspicious 
> whether his father really changed or just another opportunity to beat him.
> 
> I asked forgiveness to god, but still my pain not gone and hence this 
> confession to this group.
> 
> Pray god for my younger son to speak soon.
> 
> I believe in prayers, and group prayer for one cause can do wonders.
> 
> What ever I will achieve in any field will not give me satisfaction unless my 
> children become normal. Especially elder son getting better, but only worried 
> about younger son.
> 
> Please pray.
> 
> 
> Suresh 
> 
> Sent from BlackBerry® on Airtel
>






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[Zen] Re: the human body

[Bill!]

Merle,

Yes.  IMO zen is not an exclusive subset or sect of Buddhism.

Buddhism is a religion has does have many, many lists of principles, dogma, 
doctrines, rituals, precepts, vows, etc...  All these IMO have nothing directly 
to do with zen, but in the case of Zen Buddhism are like an add-on covering and 
adornments that are wrapped around zen.  In the case of most other Buddhist 
sects zen does not play any part, and is in fact seen as a cult.


This is why I draw a distinction between zen with a lower-case 'z' which is a 
common noun and refers only the zen in general, and Zen with an upper-case 'Z' 
which is a proper noun referring to Zen Buddhism.

This again is IMO and is not the traditional view of Zen Buddhism...by those 
that identify themselves as Zen Buddhists.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
>
> 
> 
>  hallo bill...so tell me why oh why is the classification referred to as zen 
> buddhism?... can you have zen without buddhist principles?... merle
>   
> Merle,
> 
> As you should very well know by now I don't identify with being a Buddhist.
> 
> I do however practice zen and have for over 45 years; but just because I 
> practice zen doesn't mean I don't feel pain, or have other delusions.  What 
> it means is that (most of the time) I am not attached to those delusions.
> 
> ...Bill!
> 
> ...Bill!
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
> >
> > 
> > 
> >  bill...acceptance is the key...what sort odf a zen buddhist are 
> > you?..merle
> >   
> > Merle,
> > 
> > Yes!  Why me?  Why not someone else?  Someone I don't like?  Someone who 
> > doesn't look like me or is the same color as me or speaks the same language 
> > as I do.  Someone ELSE!
> > 
> > ...Bill!
> > 
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
> > >
> > > 
> > > 
> > >  bill...not why me...that's plain silly..why not you?...merle
> > >   
> > > Merle,
> > > 
> > > I have been in pain before.  When I am in pain I don't think of pain as a 
> > > judgmental delusion, I think of it as pain and judge it to be bad; and 
> > > maybe even think "Poor, poor me!  Why do I have to suffer all this pain?  
> > > What did I do to deserve this?  I just want it to go away!".
> > > 
> > > ...Bill! 
> > > 
> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > ÃÆ'‚ have you been in pain bill..and thought it was 
> > > > judgemental delusion?...merle
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > ÃÆ'‚  
> > > > Merle,
> > > > 
> > > > I don't know how you got from what I said earlier to your post below.
> > > > 
> > > > The experience of feeling/touch is real.  That experience is Buddha 
> > > > Nature.  The classification of it as 'pain' is the judgmental delusion. 
> > > >  Just as the experience of sight is real.  The classification of it as 
> > > > 'a red bird' is the delusion.
> > > > 
> > > > ...Bill! 
> > > > 
> > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ bill...i see...so if one is 
> > > > > in pain..this is an illusion..try telling that to someone bowled over 
> > > > > and in agony...merle
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚  
> > > > > Merle,
> > > > > 
> > > > > I also want to add that experiencing Buddha Nature, such as through 
> > > > > zazen, does not involve a disconnection with the body.  It involves a 
> > > > > disconnection with the illusion of self and all dualism.
> > > > > 
> > > > > ...Bill!
> > > > > 
> > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!"  wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Merle,
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > No, the body is not a restraint.  It is a gateway - at least as far 
> > > > > > as zen is concerned.  The body, or at least its ability to afford 
> > > > > > awareness of reality, is the necessary component of Buddha Nature 
> > > > > > for not only humans but all beings as we know them.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > ...Bill!
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > i know this is a little crazy..however here i 
> > > > > > > go..ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > the human body..can we exist without it?...we do when we are in 
> > > > > > > cyber space although we need the body to get the messages out 
> > > > > > > there...mm that has me stumped!
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > would this body less be liken to the meditation 
> > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ state that can be 
> > > > > > > achieved once one has surpassed the breath counting saga?
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ i have belief that 
> > > > > > > monks can practise a form of meditation whereby the can slow the 
> > > > > > > whole body/ mind totally down to an almost non existent state
> > > > 

[Zen] Re: the human body

[Bill!]

Merle,

The experience of a toothache is not a delusion.  It is real.  It is in fact a 
characteristic of Buddha Nature.

Classifying the experience as 'pain' and judging it to be 'bad' is the delusion.

More generally put, experience is real.  Classifying and judging are 
perceptions and products of your human intellect.  These are delusions (not 
real, not experience).

...Bill! 

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
>
> 
> 
>  
>  bill...so you are still telling me pain is a delusion?... tell me next time 
> when you are in deep pain..try a very bad toothache..see it as a delusion and 
> don't visit the dentist...how long will you last before you realise it is 
> real and needs attention?...merle
> 
> 
>   
> Merle,
> 
> As you should very well know by now I don't identify with being a Buddhist.
> 
> I do however practice zen and have for over 45 years; but just because I 
> practice zen doesn't mean I don't feel pain, or have other delusions.  What 
> it means is that (most of the time) I am not attached to those delusions.
> 
> ...Bill!
> 
> ...Bill!
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
> >
> > 
> > 
> >  bill...acceptance is the key...what sort odf a zen buddhist are 
> > you?..merle
> >   
> > Merle,
> > 
> > Yes!  Why me?  Why not someone else?  Someone I don't like?  Someone who 
> > doesn't look like me or is the same color as me or speaks the same language 
> > as I do.  Someone ELSE!
> > 
> > ...Bill!
> > 
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
> > >
> > > 
> > > 
> > >  bill...not why me...that's plain silly..why not you?...merle
> > >   
> > > Merle,
> > > 
> > > I have been in pain before.  When I am in pain I don't think of pain as a 
> > > judgmental delusion, I think of it as pain and judge it to be bad; and 
> > > maybe even think "Poor, poor me!  Why do I have to suffer all this pain?  
> > > What did I do to deserve this?  I just want it to go away!".
> > > 
> > > ...Bill! 
> > > 
> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > ÃÆ'‚ have you been in pain bill..and thought it was 
> > > > judgemental delusion?...merle
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > ÃÆ'‚  
> > > > Merle,
> > > > 
> > > > I don't know how you got from what I said earlier to your post below.
> > > > 
> > > > The experience of feeling/touch is real.  That experience is Buddha 
> > > > Nature.  The classification of it as 'pain' is the judgmental delusion. 
> > > >  Just as the experience of sight is real.  The classification of it as 
> > > > 'a red bird' is the delusion.
> > > > 
> > > > ...Bill! 
> > > > 
> > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ bill...i see...so if one is 
> > > > > in pain..this is an illusion..try telling that to someone bowled over 
> > > > > and in agony...merle
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚  
> > > > > Merle,
> > > > > 
> > > > > I also want to add that experiencing Buddha Nature, such as through 
> > > > > zazen, does not involve a disconnection with the body.  It involves a 
> > > > > disconnection with the illusion of self and all dualism.
> > > > > 
> > > > > ...Bill!
> > > > > 
> > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!"  wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Merle,
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > No, the body is not a restraint.  It is a gateway - at least as far 
> > > > > > as zen is concerned.  The body, or at least its ability to afford 
> > > > > > awareness of reality, is the necessary component of Buddha Nature 
> > > > > > for not only humans but all beings as we know them.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > ...Bill!
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > i know this is a little crazy..however here i 
> > > > > > > go..ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > the human body..can we exist without it?...we do when we are in 
> > > > > > > cyber space although we need the body to get the messages out 
> > > > > > > there...mm that has me stumped!
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > would this body less be liken to the meditation 
> > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ state that can be 
> > > > > > > achieved once one has surpassed the breath counting saga?
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ i have belief that 
> > > > > > > monks can practise a form of meditation whereby the can slow the 
> > > > > > > whole body/ mind totally down to an almost non existent state
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > in all the many previous post there has been much focus on 
> > > > > > > slowing the mind down..however the body..does it have a mind of 
> > > > > > > it's own so to speak?
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > after all there are millions of tiny organisms..ru

Re: [Zen] zen as a tool

[Bill!]

I agree with what JMJM has written below...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, 覺妙精明 （JMJM）  wrote:
>
> Hi Merle,
> 
> Chan historically is a mixture of Buddhist language and Taoist 
> practice.  If you read the Xinxinming by the third patriarch, it sounds 
> very much like Tao Te Jing by Lao Tzu.
> 
> Bill is right that the essence of Chan existed when there is universe, 
> before language or human being.
> 
> We don't have to be a Buddhist to practice Chan.
> 
> Chan is a tool, boat, method for us to let our divine shine through.
> 
> Even Bill calls the divine within, Buddha Nature, yet we need to be 
> mindful that Bill is not a Buddhist.  :-(
> 
> JM
> 
> 
> On 8/22/2013 4:00 PM, Merle Lester wrote:
> >
> >  JM  CLARIFICATION...please..
> >
> > bill say he practises zen however he is not a buddhist...
> > i was under the impression zen was part and parcel of buddhism...
> > that zen is the way we can approach buddha nature... and  let it shine 
> > through..
> > zen is a tool, not an end game in itself?... thank you JM...merle
> >
> > Dear Aham,
> >
> > Zen is about letting our inner divine, labeled as Buddha Nature, to 
> > shine through. Let it be our guide in our daily life.  And the only 
> > way that it may shine through depends on the purification of our 
> > physical, mental and spiritual hindrances.
> >
> > Because our inner divine, same as the external almighty, is all 
> > knowing, all wise, all powerful, all harmonious.
> >
> > JM
> >
> >
> > On 8/22/2013 2:07 AM, Bill! wrote:
> >> Aham,
> >>
> >> IMO zen is a set of teachings that first enable you to experience 
> >> Buddha Nature ("to see things as they really are" in Vipassana-speak) 
> >> and then to incorporate that experience into your daily life.
> >>
> >> These teachings usually do employ a meditation technique - zazen - 
> >> which in Japanese means 'sit zen'. Although there are many beginning 
> >> techniques used to learn to do zazen and the most popular does 
> >> involve using the breath as does Vipassana; but all zen techniques 
> >> (zazen, koan study, chanting, bowing, etc...) are all geared to bring 
> >> you eventually to a meditative state called 'shikantaza' which means 
> >> 'just sit' or 'only sit' in Japanese. It is the same (I believe) as 
> >> what the Buddhist Sutras refer to as 'samadhi'. It is in this state 
> >> that you may experience Buddha Nature ("see things as they really are").
> >>
> >> From what little I know about Vipassana there are a lot of 
> >> similarities with zen, and of course there should be if they are both 
> >> taking you to the same place.
> >>
> >> There are participants in this forum that know more about Vipassana 
> >> than I, and also participants that probably have a different opinion 
> >> of what zen is than I've just wrote out.
> >>
> >> I hope you'll hear from them.
> >>
> >> Welcome to the Zen Forum...
> >>
> >> ...Bill!
> >>
> >> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> >> , "reconceiving1942"  
> >>  wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Hi,
> >> >
> >> > I am new here in this group.
> >> > I am familiar with some meditation techiques, where vipassana 
> >> became the strongest one for me.
> >> >
> >> > What exactly is zen?
> >> > is zen a mediation technique or a quality of life?
> >> > If so, can any one describe this quality?
> >> >
> >> > Aham
> >> >
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>






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Re: [Zen] (unknown)

[Merle Lester]

 suresh..it is illegal to hit a child in many  countries... would you hit your 
wife? try humour...he hit you first... so you hit back to get him to speak?.. 
i'd go to a doctor..maybe there is a medical condition..you have a computer..do 
some searching on net... a hug and a cuddle and a tickle might work heaps 
better than a slap... .i was a high school teacher for 30 years and raised 2 
kids and have 2 grandkids 5 and 3...never hit any of them..and never felt like 
it..i rarely get angry... what makes me quietly angry?  ignorance and 
greed..though even that i see is part  and parcel of the human condition that 
many folk just can't help themselves..take care..all the best..merle


  



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, varamtha@... wrote:
>
> Dear sirs,
> 
> Today unfortunately I have beaten my younger child for not speaking. I become 
> very emotional. He is 7 years old, until last month at least he used to 
> parrot what we say and for his name, he will say his name.
> 
> For last one month he has stopped talking and all his needs are by just 
> indication or some sound. His schools and therapist complaint to us but can't 
> do by them selves.
> 
> He hit me first, that instigated my anger and I wanted to show my anger 
> controlled expecting at least a word to say daddy stop, but he did not. I 
> have holding for than 20 minutes, but all the time he cried but no word came 
> out of his mouth.
> 
> I am pained for not speaking and also pained because unnecessarily I have 
> tortured him.
> 
> I have asked forgiveness from him, but still he looks at me suspicious 
> whether his father really changed or just another opportunity to beat him.
> 
> I asked forgiveness to god, but still my pain not gone and hence this 
> confession to this group.
> 
> Pray god for my younger son to speak soon.
> 
> I believe in prayers, and group prayer for one cause can do wonders.
> 
> What ever I will achieve in any field will not give me satisfaction unless my 
> children become normal. Especially elder son getting better, but only worried 
> about younger son.
> 
> Please pray.
> 
> 
> Suresh 
> 
> Sent from BlackBerry® on Airtel
>


 

[Zen] Re: new member

[reconceiving1942]

Bill,

o.k.
I at first will investigate before i write ove rmy experiences.

aham

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!"  wrote:
>
> Aham,
> 
> IMO zen is a set of teachings that first enable you to experience Buddha 
> Nature ("to see things as they really are" in Vipassana-speak) and then to 
> incorporate that experience into your daily life.
> 
> These teachings usually do employ a meditation technique - zazen - which in 
> Japanese means 'sit zen'.  Although there are many beginning techniques used 
> to learn to do zazen and the most popular does involve using the breath as 
> does Vipassana; but all zen techniques (zazen, koan study, chanting, bowing, 
> etc...) are all geared to bring you eventually to a meditative state called 
> 'shikantaza' which means 'just sit' or 'only sit' in Japanese.  It is the 
> same (I believe) as what the Buddhist Sutras refer to as 'samadhi'.  It is in 
> this state that you may experience Buddha Nature ("see things as they really 
> are").
> 
> From what little I know about Vipassana there are a lot of similarities with 
> zen, and of course there should be if they are both taking you to the same 
> place.
> 
> There are participants in this forum that know more about Vipassana than I, 
> and also participants that probably have a different opinion of what zen is 
> than I've just wrote out.
> 
> I hope you'll hear from them.
> 
> Welcome to the Zen Forum...
> 
> ...Bill!






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[Zen] Re: Zen - Introduction to zen practice / full version - Taigen Shodo Harada Roshi - YouTube

[reconceiving1942]

Merle,

thanks.

aham

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
>
> 
> 
> for the new member..welcome aham... cheers merle
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LL2XUTeoUsM
>






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[Zen] Re: Fw: Zen Mountain Monastery: Dharma Discourses by Daido Roshi

[reconceiving1942]

Merle,

thnaks.

aham


--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
>
> 
> 
> aham.. check this out...cheers merle
> 
> http://mro.org/zmm/teachings/discourses.php
>






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[Zen] Re: new member

[reconceiving1942]

JM,

as a principle I agree.

Aham

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, 覺妙精明 （JMJM）  wrote:
>
> Dear Aham,
> 
> Zen is about letting our inner divine, labeled as Buddha Nature, to 
> shine through.  Let it be our guide in our daily life.  And the only way 
> that it may shine through depends on the purification of our physical, 
> mental and spiritual hindrances.
> 
> Because our inner divine, same as the external almighty, is all knowing, 
> all wise, all powerful, all harmonious.
> 
> JM
> 
> 
> On 8/22/2013 2:07 AM, Bill! wrote:
> >
> > Aham,
> >
> > IMO zen is a set of teachings that first enable you to experience 
> > Buddha Nature ("to see things as they really are" in Vipassana-speak) 
> > and then to incorporate that experience into your daily life.
> >
> > These teachings usually do employ a meditation technique - zazen - 
> > which in Japanese means 'sit zen'. Although there are many beginning 
> > techniques used to learn to do zazen and the most popular does involve 
> > using the breath as does Vipassana; but all zen techniques (zazen, 
> > koan study, chanting, bowing, etc...) are all geared to bring you 
> > eventually to a meditative state called 'shikantaza' which means 'just 
> > sit' or 'only sit' in Japanese. It is the same (I believe) as what the 
> > Buddhist Sutras refer to as 'samadhi'. It is in this state that you 
> > may experience Buddha Nature ("see things as they really are").
> >
> > From what little I know about Vipassana there are a lot of 
> > similarities with zen, and of course there should be if they are both 
> > taking you to the same place.
> >
> > There are participants in this forum that know more about Vipassana 
> > than I, and also participants that probably have a different opinion 
> > of what zen is than I've just wrote out.
> >
> > I hope you'll hear from them.
> >
> > Welcome to the Zen Forum...
> >
> > ...Bill!
> >
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com , 
> > "reconceiving1942"  wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I am new here in this group.
> > > I am familiar with some meditation techiques, where vipassana became 
> > the strongest one for me.
> > >
> > > What exactly is zen?
> > > is zen a mediation technique or a quality of life?
> > > If so, can any one describe this quality?
> > >
> > > Aham
> > >
> >
> >
>






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[Zen] Confession

[SURESH JAGADEESAN]

Dear Merle / Bill / Larry,

Thanks for your good supportive words. But I need to admit one thing,
that is the christian way of confession helps a lot. After I wrote
that mail to zen forum, my mind got eased of at great amount.

Being Truthful and honest brings ease of mind.

Regarding my younger son, please note he is diagonised to suffer Autism/ADHD.

Until last month, he used to speak like parrot, and few words on his
own, all of sudden he stopped speaking. My wife got worried, will he
speak again or not is her great doubt.

His behaviour keep changing every month or even every week.

My anger was remained most of the time under control, except for few
moments, but that conscience will come and tell, be gentle and slow.

After slapping I jumped on him to sit on my lap but restrict his leg
movement and holded both his hands above his head. This arrested his
all bodily movement. So he wanted to be free from my locking.

By locking I keep on saying say at least mummy, daddy, but he kept on
crying and nodding his word, but he did not repeated any of my word.

We don't know how long we need to wait. Some therapist even scare us
stating he may not speak again, as he is Autism, there is a
possibility.

So we are very much stressful.

Hence I requested prayer from you all. Even though I practice to here
and now and not to bother about future, at some times it does affect.

In these kinds of situations only one look for god, to help him. If no
god, then the hope of getting out of troubles is out of question. Hope
is opium to keep going in life.

Why mind is not accepting to live with what is? especially an
undesirable situation.
-- 
Thanks and best regards
J.Suresh
New No.3, Old No.7,
Chamiers road - 1st Lane,
Alwarpet,
Chennai - 600018
Ph: 044 42030947
Mobile: 91 9884071738




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[Zen] Evolve or die

[SURESH JAGADEESAN]

THE URGENCY OF TRANSFORMATION - ECKHART TOLLE

When faced with a radical crisis, when the old way of being in the
world, of interacting with each other and with the realm of nature doesn’t
work anymore, when survival is threatened by seemingly insurmountable
problems, an individual lifeform– or a species – will either die or become
extinct or rise above the limitations of its condition through an evolutionary
leap.

It is believed that the lifeforms on this planet first evolved in the sea.
When there were no animals yet to be found on land, the sea was already
teeming with life.

Then at some point, one of the sea creatures must have started to
venture onto dry land. It would perhaps crawl a few inches at
first,then exhausted by the enormous gravitational pull of the planet,
it would return to the water, where gravity is almost nonexistent and
where it could live with much greater ease.

And then it tried again and again and again, and much later would
adapt to life on land, grow feet instead of fins, develop lungs
instead of gills. It seems unlikely that a species would venture into
such an alien environment and undergo an evolutionary transformation
unless it was compelled to do so by some crisis situation.

There may have been a large sea area that got cut off from the main
ocean where the water gradually receded over thousands of years,
forcing fish to leave their habitatand evolve.

Responding to a radical crisis that threatens our very survival – this is
humanity’s challenge now.

The dysfunction of the egoic human mind, recognized already more than
2,500 years ago by the ancient wisdom teachers and now magnified
through science and technology, is for the first time threatening the
survival of the planet.

Until very recently, the transformation of human consciousness – also
pointed to by the ancient teachers – was no more than a possibility,
realized by a few rare individuals here and there, irrespective of
cultural or religious background.

A widespread flowering of human consciousness did not happen because it was
not yet imperative.

A significant portion of the earth’s population will soon recognize, if
they haven’t already done so, that humanity is now faced with a stark choice:
Evolve or die.

 A still relatively small but rapidly growing percentage of humanity
is already experiencing within themselves the breakup of the old egoic
mind patterns and the emergence of a new dimension of consciousness.

What is arising now is not a new belief system, a new religion,
spiritual ideology, or mythology.

We are coming to the end not only of mythologies but also of
ideologies and belief systems.

The change goes deeper than the content of your mind, deeper than your
thoughts. In fact, at the heart of the new consciousness is the
transcendence of thought, the
newfound ability of rising above thought, of realizing a dimension
within yourself that is infinitely more vast than thought.

You then no longer derive your identity, your sense of who you are,
from the incessant stream of thinking that in the old consciousness
you take to be yourself.

What a liberation to realize that the “voice in my head” is not who I
am. Who am I
then? The one who sees that. The awareness that is prior to thought, the
space in which the thought – or the emotion or sense perception – happens

-- 
Thanks and best regards
J.Suresh
New No.3, Old No.7,
Chamiers road - 1st Lane,
Alwarpet,
Chennai - 600018
Ph: 044 42030947
Mobile: 91 9884071738




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Re: [Zen] (unknown)

[Bill!]

If you beat you wife you must go by the rule of thumb...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
>
> 
> 
>  suresh..it is illegal to hit a child in many  countries... would you hit 
> your wife? try humour...he hit you first... so you hit back to get him to 
> speak?.. i'd go to a doctor..maybe there is a medical condition..you have a 
> computer..do some searching on net... a hug and a cuddle and a tickle might 
> work heaps better than a slap... .i was a high school teacher for 30 years 
> and raised 2 kids and have 2 grandkids 5 and 3...never hit any of them..and 
> never felt like it..i rarely get angry... what makes me quietly angry?  
> ignorance and greed..though even that i see is part  and parcel of the human 
> condition that many folk just can't help themselves..take care..all the 
> best..merle
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, varamtha@ wrote:
> >
> > Dear sirs,
> > 
> > Today unfortunately I have beaten my younger child for not speaking. I 
> > become very emotional. He is 7 years old, until last month at least he used 
> > to parrot what we say and for his name, he will say his name.
> > 
> > For last one month he has stopped talking and all his needs are by just 
> > indication or some sound. His schools and therapist complaint to us but 
> > can't do by them selves.
> > 
> > He hit me first, that instigated my anger and I wanted to show my anger 
> > controlled expecting at least a word to say daddy stop, but he did not. I 
> > have holding for than 20 minutes, but all the time he cried but no word 
> > came out of his mouth.
> > 
> > I am pained for not speaking and also pained because unnecessarily I have 
> > tortured him.
> > 
> > I have asked forgiveness from him, but still he looks at me suspicious 
> > whether his father really changed or just another opportunity to beat him.
> > 
> > I asked forgiveness to god, but still my pain not gone and hence this 
> > confession to this group.
> > 
> > Pray god for my younger son to speak soon.
> > 
> > I believe in prayers, and group prayer for one cause can do wonders.
> > 
> > What ever I will achieve in any field will not give me satisfaction unless 
> > my children become normal. Especially elder son getting better, but only 
> > worried about younger son.
> > 
> > Please pray.
> > 
> > 
> > Suresh 
> > 
> > Sent from BlackBerry® on Airtel
> >
>






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Re: [Zen] Re: new member

[Kristopher Grey]

On 8/22/2013 5:12 AM, Merle Lester wrote:


..when in reality it is a matter of acceptance
merle



Acceptance, of anything, is rejection of change.

KG

Re: [Zen] zen as a tool

[Kristopher Grey]

Can 'the Buddha Nature' approach itself? Such a funny game this is!

KG


On 8/22/2013 7:00 PM, Merle Lester wrote:


 JM  CLARIFICATION...please..

bill say he practises zen however he is not a buddhist...
i was under the impression zen was part and parcel of buddhism...
that zen is the way we can approach buddha nature... and  let it shine 
through..

zen is a tool, not an end game in itself?... thank you JM...merle

Dear Aham,

Zen is about letting our inner divine, labeled as Buddha Nature, to 
shine through. Let it be our guide in our daily life.  And the only 
way that it may shine through depends on the purification of our 
physical, mental and spiritual hindrances.


Because our inner divine, same as the external almighty, is all 
knowing, all wise, all powerful, all harmonious.


JM


On 8/22/2013 2:07 AM, Bill! wrote:

Aham,

IMO zen is a set of teachings that first enable you to experience 
Buddha Nature ("to see things as they really are" in Vipassana-speak) 
and then to incorporate that experience into your daily life.


These teachings usually do employ a meditation technique - zazen - 
which in Japanese means 'sit zen'. Although there are many beginning 
techniques used to learn to do zazen and the most popular does 
involve using the breath as does Vipassana; but all zen techniques 
(zazen, koan study, chanting, bowing, etc...) are all geared to bring 
you eventually to a meditative state called 'shikantaza' which means 
'just sit' or 'only sit' in Japanese. It is the same (I believe) as 
what the Buddhist Sutras refer to as 'samadhi'. It is in this state 
that you may experience Buddha Nature ("see things as they really are").


From what little I know about Vipassana there are a lot of 
similarities with zen, and of course there should be if they are both 
taking you to the same place.


There are participants in this forum that know more about Vipassana 
than I, and also participants that probably have a different opinion 
of what zen is than I've just wrote out.


I hope you'll hear from them.

Welcome to the Zen Forum...

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
, "reconceiving1942"  
 wrote:

>
> Hi,
>
> I am new here in this group.
> I am familiar with some meditation techiques, where vipassana 
became the strongest one for me.

>
> What exactly is zen?
> is zen a mediation technique or a quality of life?
> If so, can any one describe this quality?
>
> Aham
>

Re: [Zen] zen as a tool

[Kristopher Grey]

On 8/22/2013 7:45 PM, 覺妙精明 （JMJM） wrote:


... yet we need to be mindful that Bill is not a Buddhist.  :-(

JM



Which chopstick is the right one?

I cannot tell.

Fortunately it is of no consequence.

A round bowl can only be emptied from one side.

KG

Re: [Zen] (unknown)

[Kristopher Grey]

Perhaps you could buy the child a small parrot to care for and train...

KG


On 8/22/2013 10:19 AM, varam...@gmail.com wrote:
> Dear sirs,
>
> Today unfortunately I have beaten my younger child for not speaking. I become 
> very emotional. He is 7 years old, until last month at least he used to 
> parrot what we say and for his name, he will say his name.
>
> For last one month he has stopped talking and all his needs are by just 
> indication or some sound. His schools and therapist complaint to us but can't 
> do by them selves.
>
> He hit me first, that instigated my anger and I wanted to show my anger 
> controlled expecting at least a word to say daddy stop, but he did not. I 
> have holding for than 20 minutes, but all the time he cried but no word came 
> out of his mouth.
>
> I am pained for not speaking and also pained because unnecessarily I have 
> tortured him.
>
> I have asked forgiveness from him, but still he looks at me suspicious 
> whether his father really changed or just another opportunity to beat him.
>
> I asked forgiveness to god, but still my pain not gone and hence this 
> confession to this group.
>
> Pray god for my younger son to speak soon.
>
> I believe in prayers, and group prayer for one cause can do wonders.
>
> What ever I will achieve in any field will not give me satisfaction unless my 
> children become normal. Especially elder son getting better, but only worried 
> about younger son.
>
> Please pray.
>
>
> Suresh
>
> Sent from BlackBerry® on Airtel
>
> 
>
> Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
> reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>





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Re: [Zen] Evolve or die

[Kristopher Grey]

Eckhart, though clearly a dear man, appears to have fallen into a habit 
of playing to 'new age" peoples' sentimentality. "Evolve or die." ?  
While perhaps an evocative comment, there is no choice in this. These 
are integral aspects of our existence. Each of us, a  'new' experiment 
in 'humanity'. Each, leaving what they have to others to carry on with 
(or drop) as our lives play out. For better or worse, also not a choice. 
Naturally we tell ourselves otherwise, blessing and cursing others as we go.

KG


On 8/23/2013 7:44 AM, SURESH JAGADEESAN wrote:
> THE URGENCY OF TRANSFORMATION - ECKHART TOLLE
>
> When faced with a radical crisis, when the old way of being in the
> world, of interacting with each other and with the realm of nature doesn’t
> work anymore, when survival is threatened by seemingly insurmountable
> problems, an individual lifeform– or a species – will either die or become
> extinct or rise above the limitations of its condition through an evolutionary
> leap.
>
> It is believed that the lifeforms on this planet first evolved in the sea.
> When there were no animals yet to be found on land, the sea was already
> teeming with life.
>
> Then at some point, one of the sea creatures must have started to
> venture onto dry land. It would perhaps crawl a few inches at
> first,then exhausted by the enormous gravitational pull of the planet,
> it would return to the water, where gravity is almost nonexistent and
> where it could live with much greater ease.
>
> And then it tried again and again and again, and much later would
> adapt to life on land, grow feet instead of fins, develop lungs
> instead of gills. It seems unlikely that a species would venture into
> such an alien environment and undergo an evolutionary transformation
> unless it was compelled to do so by some crisis situation.
>
> There may have been a large sea area that got cut off from the main
> ocean where the water gradually receded over thousands of years,
> forcing fish to leave their habitatand evolve.
>
> Responding to a radical crisis that threatens our very survival – this is
> humanity’s challenge now.
>
> The dysfunction of the egoic human mind, recognized already more than
> 2,500 years ago by the ancient wisdom teachers and now magnified
> through science and technology, is for the first time threatening the
> survival of the planet.
>
> Until very recently, the transformation of human consciousness – also
> pointed to by the ancient teachers – was no more than a possibility,
> realized by a few rare individuals here and there, irrespective of
> cultural or religious background.
>
> A widespread flowering of human consciousness did not happen because it was
> not yet imperative.
>
> A significant portion of the earth’s population will soon recognize, if
> they haven’t already done so, that humanity is now faced with a stark choice:
> Evolve or die.
>
>   A still relatively small but rapidly growing percentage of humanity
> is already experiencing within themselves the breakup of the old egoic
> mind patterns and the emergence of a new dimension of consciousness.
>
> What is arising now is not a new belief system, a new religion,
> spiritual ideology, or mythology.
>
> We are coming to the end not only of mythologies but also of
> ideologies and belief systems.
>
> The change goes deeper than the content of your mind, deeper than your
> thoughts. In fact, at the heart of the new consciousness is the
> transcendence of thought, the
> newfound ability of rising above thought, of realizing a dimension
> within yourself that is infinitely more vast than thought.
>
> You then no longer derive your identity, your sense of who you are,
> from the incessant stream of thinking that in the old consciousness
> you take to be yourself.
>
> What a liberation to realize that the “voice in my head” is not who I
> am. Who am I
> then? The one who sees that. The awareness that is prior to thought, the
> space in which the thought – or the emotion or sense perception – happens
>





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[Zen] (unknown)

[pandabananasock]

Has anyone here experienced hearing their mind aloud?  I mean really HEARING, 
not thoughts.





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Re: [Zen] (unknown)

[Chris Austin-Lane]

Also, I find it's really helpful as a parent to have other parents to
complain about how unruly, disobedient and exasperating the children are -
it lets out some of the emotional energy of the frustration of parenting in
a safe way, so that when I"m back in the room alone with the stubborn
willful and beloved child I am much more likely to take the "deep breath"
advice and much less likely to act in ways that aren't how I wish to
parent.

It's hard, but hitting rarely conveys the message one wishes to pass on as
a parent, and doesn't really do much in the way of making good adults.  But
the past is past, kids are resilient once we parents get our act together.

--Chris

Thanks,

--Chris
ch...@austin-lane.net
+1-301-270-6524


On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 6:23 AM, Kristopher Grey  wrote:

> Perhaps you could buy the child a small parrot to care for and train...
>
> KG
>
>
> On 8/22/2013 10:19 AM, varam...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Dear sirs,
> >
> > Today unfortunately I have beaten my younger child for not speaking. I
> become very emotional. He is 7 years old, until last month at least he used
> to parrot what we say and for his name, he will say his name.
> >
> > For last one month he has stopped talking and all his needs are by just
> indication or some sound. His schools and therapist complaint to us but
> can't do by them selves.
> >
> > He hit me first, that instigated my anger and I wanted to show my anger
> controlled expecting at least a word to say daddy stop, but he did not. I
> have holding for than 20 minutes, but all the time he cried but no word
> came out of his mouth.
> >
> > I am pained for not speaking and also pained because unnecessarily I
> have tortured him.
> >
> > I have asked forgiveness from him, but still he looks at me suspicious
> whether his father really changed or just another opportunity to beat him.
> >
> > I asked forgiveness to god, but still my pain not gone and hence this
> confession to this group.
> >
> > Pray god for my younger son to speak soon.
> >
> > I believe in prayers, and group prayer for one cause can do wonders.
> >
> > What ever I will achieve in any field will not give me satisfaction
> unless my children become normal. Especially elder son getting better, but
> only worried about younger son.
> >
> > Please pray.
> >
> >
> > Suresh
> >
> > Sent from BlackBerry® on Airtel
> >
> > 
> >
> > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are
> reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> 
>
> Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are
> reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Re: [Zen] My book on Reality is now available on Amazon.com

[Chris Austin-Lane]

Cool!  I ordered it - should be here soon.  I was surprised that there is
no kindle edition - do you have a story to tell about that?

Thanks,


Chris

Thanks,

--Chris
ch...@austin-lane.net
+1-301-270-6524


On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 2:07 PM, Edgar Owen  wrote:

> Dear All,
>
> After several years of work my book on the deep nature of reality is now
> published and available on Amazon.com
>
>
> http://www.amazon.com/Reality-Sweeping-Existence-Information-Consciousness/dp/0615869459/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1377032180&sr=8-3&keywords=edgar+l.+owen
>
> Edgar
>
>
>
>
> 
>
> Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are
> reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Re: [Zen] Re: the human body

[larry maher]

Can anyone help me? I'm new here. I was just wondering who the forum head
was? If the answer is no one could I please find out who Merle or Bill is?
The one with the 45 yrs of meditation. I won't bother anyone, am just
trying to figure this out.
Thank you
Larry


On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 6:53 PM, Merle Lester wrote:

> **
>
>
>
>
>  bill...so you are still telling me pain is a delusion?... tell me next
> time when you are in deep pain..try a very bad toothache..see it as a
> delusion and don't visit the dentist...how long will you last before you
> realise it is real and needs attention?...merle
>
>
> Merle,
>
> As you should very well know by now I don't identify with being a Buddhist.
>
> I do however practice zen and have for over 45 years; but just because I
> practice zen doesn't mean I don't feel pain, or have other delusions. What
> it means is that (most of the time) I am not attached to those delusions.
>
> ...Bill!
>
> ...Bill!
>
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Â bill...acceptance is the key...what sort odf a zen buddhist are
> you?..merle
> > Â
> > Merle,
> >
> > Yes! Why me? Why not someone else? Someone I don't like? Someone who
> doesn't look like me or is the same color as me or speaks the same language
> as I do. Someone ELSE!
> >
> > ...Bill!
> >
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >  bill...not why me...that's plain silly..why not you?...merle
> > > ÂÂ
> > > Merle,
> > >
> > > I have been in pain before. When I am in pain I don't think of pain as
> a judgmental delusion, I think of it as pain and judge it to be bad; and
> maybe even think "Poor, poor me! Why do I have to suffer all this pain?
> What did I do to deserve this? I just want it to go away!".
> > >
> > > ...Bill!
> > >
> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  have you been in pain bill..and thought it was judgemental
> delusion?...merle
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ÂÂÂ
> > > > Merle,
> > > >
> > > > I don't know how you got from what I said earlier to your post below.
> > > >
> > > > The experience of feeling/touch is real. That experience is Buddha
> Nature. The classification of it as 'pain' is the judgmental delusion. Just
> as the experience of sight is real. The classification of it as 'a red
> bird' is the delusion.
> > > >
> > > > ...Bill!
> > > >
> > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester 
> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ÃÆ'‚ bill...i see...so if one is in pain..this is
> an illusion..try telling that to someone bowled over and in agony...merle
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ÃÆ'‚ÂÂÂ
> > > > > Merle,
> > > > >
> > > > > I also want to add that experiencing Buddha Nature, such as
> through zazen, does not involve a disconnection with the body. It involves
> a disconnection with the illusion of self and all dualism.
> > > > >
> > > > > ...Bill!
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!"  wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Merle,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > No, the body is not a restraint. It is a gateway - at least as
> far as zen is concerned. The body, or at least its ability to afford
> awareness of reality, is the necessary component of Buddha Nature for not
> only humans but all beings as we know them.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ...Bill!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester 
> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > i know this is a little crazy..however here i
> go..ÃÆ'‚ÂÂÂ
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > the human body..can we exist without it?...we do when we are
> in cyber space although we need the body to get the messages out
> there...mm that has me stumped!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > would this body less be liken to the meditation
> ÃÆ'‚ state that can be achieved once one has surpassed the
> breath counting saga?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ÃÆ'‚ i have belief that monks can practise a
> form of meditation whereby the can slow the whole body/ mind totally down
> to an almost non existent state
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > in all the many previous post there has been much focus on
> slowing the mind down..however the body..does it have a mind of it's own so
> to speak?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > after all there are millions of tiny organisms..rummaging in
> the body that we do not have any control over what so ever...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > (meditate as long and hard as you want, they do their own
> thing regardless)...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > a whole eco system...one could say a universe lies in the gut
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ÃÆ'‚ my zen question is thus:
> ÃÆ'‚ to be totally free ..the human body is it a restraint?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ÃÆ'‚ merle
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ÃÆ'‚ÂÂÂ
> > > > > > > Merle
> > > > > > > www.wix.com/merlewiitpom

Re: [Zen] (unknown)

[larry maher]

I have. A few times, a few words. The bridge opened as a reaction to some
extreme things going on in my life. I just thought it was weird or funny at
the time. Still do.


On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 10:05 AM, pandabananasock  wrote:

> **
>
>
> Has anyone here experienced hearing their mind aloud? I mean really
> HEARING, not thoughts.
>
>  
>



-- 
*Larry Maher*

Re: [Zen] My book on Reality is now available on Amazon.com

[Edgar Owen]

Hi Chris and thanks for ordering my book.

I have now got it available on Kindle but there are still a few formatting 
problems I'm trying to resolve that Kindle doesn't make easy...

Edgar



On Aug 23, 2013, at 12:28 PM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote:

> 
> Cool!  I ordered it - should be here soon.  I was surprised that there is no 
> kindle edition - do you have a story to tell about that?  
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> 
> Chris
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> --Chris
> ch...@austin-lane.net
> +1-301-270-6524
> 
> 
> On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 2:07 PM, Edgar Owen  wrote:
> Dear All,
> 
> After several years of work my book on the deep nature of reality is now 
> published and available on Amazon.com
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Reality-Sweeping-Existence-Information-Consciousness/dp/0615869459/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1377032180&sr=8-3&keywords=edgar+l.+owen
> 
> Edgar
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
> reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

Re: [Zen] Re: the human body

[Edgar Owen]

Larry,

Bill and me, Edgar, are co-moderators of the group...

Edgar



On Aug 23, 2013, at 12:32 PM, larry maher wrote:

> 
> Can anyone help me? I'm new here. I was just wondering who the forum head 
> was? If the answer is no one could I please find out who Merle or Bill is? 
> The one with the 45 yrs of meditation. I won't bother anyone, am just trying 
> to figure this out.
> Thank you
> Larry
> 
> 
> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 6:53 PM, Merle Lester  wrote:
>  
> 
> 
>  
>  bill...so you are still telling me pain is a delusion?... tell me next time 
> when you are in deep pain..try a very bad toothache..see it as a delusion and 
> don't visit the dentist...how long will you last before you realise it is 
> real and needs attention?...merle
> 
>  
> Merle,
> 
> As you should very well know by now I don't identify with being a Buddhist.
> 
> I do however practice zen and have for over 45 years; but just because I 
> practice zen doesn't mean I don't feel pain, or have other delusions. What it 
> means is that (most of the time) I am not attached to those delusions.
> 
> ...Bill!
> 
> ...Bill!
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
> >
> > 
> > 
> > Â bill...acceptance is the key...what sort odf a zen buddhist are 
> > you?..merle
> > Â  
> > Merle,
> > 
> > Yes! Why me? Why not someone else? Someone I don't like? Someone who 
> > doesn't look like me or is the same color as me or speaks the same language 
> > as I do. Someone ELSE!
> > 
> > ...Bill!
> > 
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
> > >
> > > 
> > > 
> > >  bill...not why me...that's plain silly..why not you?...merle
> > >   
> > > Merle,
> > > 
> > > I have been in pain before. When I am in pain I don't think of pain as a 
> > > judgmental delusion, I think of it as pain and judge it to be bad; and 
> > > maybe even think "Poor, poor me! Why do I have to suffer all this pain? 
> > > What did I do to deserve this? I just want it to go away!".
> > > 
> > > ...Bill! 
> > > 
> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > >  have you been in pain bill..and thought it was judgemental 
> > > > delusion?...merle
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > >   
> > > > Merle,
> > > > 
> > > > I don't know how you got from what I said earlier to your post below.
> > > > 
> > > > The experience of feeling/touch is real. That experience is Buddha 
> > > > Nature. The classification of it as 'pain' is the judgmental delusion. 
> > > > Just as the experience of sight is real. The classification of it as 'a 
> > > > red bird' is the delusion.
> > > > 
> > > > ...Bill! 
> > > > 
> > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > ÃÆ'‚ bill...i see...so if one is in pain..this is an 
> > > > > illusion..try telling that to someone bowled over and in agony...merle
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > ÃÆ'‚  
> > > > > Merle,
> > > > > 
> > > > > I also want to add that experiencing Buddha Nature, such as through 
> > > > > zazen, does not involve a disconnection with the body. It involves a 
> > > > > disconnection with the illusion of self and all dualism.
> > > > > 
> > > > > ...Bill!
> > > > > 
> > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!"  wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Merle,
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > No, the body is not a restraint. It is a gateway - at least as far 
> > > > > > as zen is concerned. The body, or at least its ability to afford 
> > > > > > awareness of reality, is the necessary component of Buddha Nature 
> > > > > > for not only humans but all beings as we know them.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > ...Bill!
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > i know this is a little crazy..however here i 
> > > > > > > go..ÃÆ'‚ 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > the human body..can we exist without it?...we do when we are in 
> > > > > > > cyber space although we need the body to get the messages out 
> > > > > > > there...mm that has me stumped!
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > would this body less be liken to the meditation 
> > > > > > > ÃÆ'‚ state that can be achieved once one has 
> > > > > > > surpassed the breath counting saga?
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > ÃÆ'‚ i have belief that monks can practise a form 
> > > > > > > of meditation whereby the can slow the whole body/ mind totally 
> > > > > > > down to an almost non existent state
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > in all the many previous post there has been much focus on 
> > > > > > > slowing the mind down..however the body..does it have a mind of 
> > > > > > > it's own so to speak?
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > after all there are millions of tiny organisms..rummaging in the 
> > > > > > > body that we do not have any control over what so ever...
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > (meditate as long and hard as you want,

Re: [Zen] My book on Reality is now available on Amazon.com

[Chris Austin-Lane]

Hmm, still not an option on Amazon, but my physical copy is apparently in
San José en route to my place.

--Chris

Thanks,

--Chris
ch...@austin-lane.net
+1-301-270-6524


On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 10:10 AM, Edgar Owen  wrote:

>
>
> Hi Chris and thanks for ordering my book.
>
> I have now got it available on Kindle but there are still a few formatting
> problems I'm trying to resolve that Kindle doesn't make easy...
>
> Edgar
>
>
>
> On Aug 23, 2013, at 12:28 PM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote:
>
>
>
> Cool!  I ordered it - should be here soon.  I was surprised that there is
> no kindle edition - do you have a story to tell about that?
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> Chris
>
> Thanks,
>
> --Chris
> ch...@austin-lane.net
> +1-301-270-6524
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 2:07 PM, Edgar Owen  wrote:
>
>> Dear All,
>>
>> After several years of work my book on the deep nature of reality is now
>> published and available on Amazon.com
>>
>>
>> http://www.amazon.com/Reality-Sweeping-Existence-Information-Consciousness/dp/0615869459/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1377032180&sr=8-3&keywords=edgar+l.+owen
>>
>> Edgar
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>>
>> Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are
>> reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> 
>

Re: [Zen] Re: the human body

[larry maher]

Thank you so much.


On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 1:11 PM, Edgar Owen  wrote:

> **
>
>
> Larry,
>
> Bill and me, Edgar, are co-moderators of the group...
>
> Edgar
>
>
>
> On Aug 23, 2013, at 12:32 PM, larry maher wrote:
>
>
>
> Can anyone help me? I'm new here. I was just wondering who the forum head
> was? If the answer is no one could I please find out who Merle or Bill is?
> The one with the 45 yrs of meditation. I won't bother anyone, am just
> trying to figure this out.
> Thank you
> Larry
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 6:53 PM, Merle Lester wrote:
>
>> **
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  bill...so you are still telling me pain is a delusion?... tell me next
>> time when you are in deep pain..try a very bad toothache..see it as a
>> delusion and don't visit the dentist...how long will you last before you
>> realise it is real and needs attention?...merle
>>
>>
>> Merle,
>>
>> As you should very well know by now I don't identify with being a
>> Buddhist.
>>
>> I do however practice zen and have for over 45 years; but just because I
>> practice zen doesn't mean I don't feel pain, or have other delusions. What
>> it means is that (most of the time) I am not attached to those delusions.
>>
>> ...Bill!
>>
>> ...Bill!
>>
>> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Â bill...acceptance is the key...what sort odf a zen buddhist are
>> you?..merle
>> > Â
>> > Merle,
>> >
>> > Yes! Why me? Why not someone else? Someone I don't like? Someone who
>> doesn't look like me or is the same color as me or speaks the same language
>> as I do. Someone ELSE!
>> >
>> > ...Bill!
>> >
>> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >  bill...not why me...that's plain silly..why not you?...merle
>> > > ÂÂ
>> > > Merle,
>> > >
>> > > I have been in pain before. When I am in pain I don't think of pain
>> as a judgmental delusion, I think of it as pain and judge it to be bad; and
>> maybe even think "Poor, poor me! Why do I have to suffer all this pain?
>> What did I do to deserve this? I just want it to go away!".
>> > >
>> > > ...Bill!
>> > >
>> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >  have you been in pain bill..and thought it was judgemental
>> delusion?...merle
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > ÂÂÂ
>> > > > Merle,
>> > > >
>> > > > I don't know how you got from what I said earlier to your post
>> below.
>> > > >
>> > > > The experience of feeling/touch is real. That experience is Buddha
>> Nature. The classification of it as 'pain' is the judgmental delusion. Just
>> as the experience of sight is real. The classification of it as 'a red
>> bird' is the delusion.
>> > > >
>> > > > ...Bill!
>> > > >
>> > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester 
>> wrote:
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > ÃÆ'‚ bill...i see...so if one is in pain..this is
>> an illusion..try telling that to someone bowled over and in agony...merle
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > ÃÆ'‚ÂÂÂ
>> > > > > Merle,
>> > > > >
>> > > > > I also want to add that experiencing Buddha Nature, such as
>> through zazen, does not involve a disconnection with the body. It involves
>> a disconnection with the illusion of self and all dualism.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > ...Bill!
>> > > > >
>> > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!"  wrote:
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Merle,
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > No, the body is not a restraint. It is a gateway - at least as
>> far as zen is concerned. The body, or at least its ability to afford
>> awareness of reality, is the necessary component of Buddha Nature for not
>> only humans but all beings as we know them.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > ...Bill!
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester 
>> wrote:
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > i know this is a little crazy..however here i
>> go..ÃÆ'‚ÂÂÂ
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > the human body..can we exist without it?...we do when we are
>> in cyber space although we need the body to get the messages out
>> there...mm that has me stumped!
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > would this body less be liken to the meditation
>> ÃÆ'‚ state that can be achieved once one has surpassed the
>> breath counting saga?
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > ÃÆ'‚ i have belief that monks can practise a
>> form of meditation whereby the can slow the whole body/ mind totally down
>> to an almost non existent state
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > in all the many previous post there has been much focus on
>> slowing the mind down..however the body..does it have a mind of it's own so
>> to speak?
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > after all there are millions of tiny organisms..rummaging in
>> the body that we do not have any control over what so ever...
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > (meditate as long and hard as you want, they do their own
>> thing regardless)...
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > a whole e

Re: [Zen] Re: new member

[Merle Lester]

 
 disagree..there is more to acceptance than meets the eye..this is the 
superficial version you are suggesting..merle
  
On 8/22/2013 5:12 AM, Merle Lester wrote:

  
>
>
> 
..when in reality it is a matter of acceptance 
>merle
>
>
Acceptance, of anything, is rejection of change.

KG

 

[Zen] clarification

[Merle Lester]

 
meaning what bill?. clarification please...merle


  
If you beat you wife you must go by the rule of thumb...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
>
> 
> 
>  suresh..it is illegal to hit a child in many  countries... would you hit 
> your wife? try humour...he hit you first... so you hit back to get him to 
> speak?.. i'd go to a doctor..maybe there is a medical condition..you have a 
> computer..do some searching on net... a hug and a cuddle and a tickle might 
> work heaps better than a slap... .i was a high school teacher for 30 years 
> and raised 2 kids and have 2 grandkids 5 and 3...never hit any of them..and 
> never felt like it..i rarely get angry... what makes me quietly angry?  
> ignorance and greed..though even that i see is part  and parcel of the human 
> condition that many folk just can't help themselves..take care..all the 
> best..merle
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, varamtha@ wrote:
> >
> > Dear sirs,
> > 
> > Today unfortunately I have beaten my younger child for not speaking. I 
> > become very emotional. He is 7 years old, until last month at least he used 
> > to parrot what we say and for his name, he will say his name.
> > 
> > For last one month he has stopped talking and all his needs are by just 
> > indication or some sound. His schools and therapist complaint to us but 
> > can't do by them selves.
> > 
> > He hit me first, that instigated my anger and I wanted to show my anger 
> > controlled expecting at least a word to say daddy stop, but he did not. I 
> > have holding for than 20 minutes, but all the time he cried but no word 
> > came out of his mouth.
> > 
> > I am pained for not speaking and also pained because unnecessarily I have 
> > tortured him.
> > 
> > I have asked forgiveness from him, but still he looks at me suspicious 
> > whether his father really changed or just another opportunity to beat him.
> > 
> > I asked forgiveness to god, but still my pain not gone and hence this 
> > confession to this group.
> > 
> > Pray god for my younger son to speak soon.
> > 
> > I believe in prayers, and group prayer for one cause can do wonders.
> > 
> > What ever I will achieve in any field will not give me satisfaction unless 
> > my children become normal. Especially elder son getting better, but only 
> > worried about younger son.
> > 
> > Please pray.
> > 
> > 
> > Suresh 
> > 
> > Sent from BlackBerry® on Airtel
> >
>


 

[Zen] for larry

[Merle Lester]

 
Merle
www.wix.com/merlewiitpom/1

[Zen] clarification

[Merle Lester]

 clarification please...merle
  
I have. A few times, a few words. The bridge opened as a reaction to some 
extreme things going on in my life. I just thought it was weird or funny at the 
time. Still do.



On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 10:05 AM, pandabananasock  
wrote:

 
>  
>Has anyone here experienced hearing their mind aloud?  I mean really HEARING, 
>not thoughts.
>
>


-- 
Larry Maher 
 

Re: [Zen] Confession

[Merle Lester]

 dear suresh...my heart goes out to you...

 i too suffer as my son age 36 suffers from ocd, anxiety and has been diagnosed 
with clinical depression..

it's not easy being the parent

 blessings, prayers and love are sent your way

 all the best

 take care

 with love merle


  
Dear Merle / Bill / Larry,

Thanks for your good supportive words. But I need to admit one thing,
that is the christian way of confession helps a lot. After I wrote
that mail to zen forum, my mind got eased of at great amount.

Being Truthful and honest brings ease of mind.

Regarding my younger son, please note he is diagonised to suffer Autism/ADHD.

Until last month, he used to speak like parrot, and few words on his
own, all of sudden he stopped speaking. My wife got worried, will he
speak again or not is her great doubt.

His behaviour keep changing every month or even every week.

My anger was remained most of the time under control, except for few
moments, but that conscience will come and tell, be gentle and slow.

After slapping I jumped on him to sit on my lap but restrict his leg
movement and holded both his hands above his head. This arrested his
all bodily movement. So he wanted to be free from my locking.

By locking I keep on saying say at least mummy, daddy, but he kept on
crying and nodding his word, but he did not repeated any of my word.

We don't know how long we need to wait. Some therapist even scare us
stating he may not speak again, as he is Autism, there is a
possibility.

So we are very much stressful.

Hence I requested prayer from you all. Even though I practice to here
and now and not to bother about future, at some times it does affect.

In these kinds of situations only one look for god, to help him. If no
god, then the hope of getting out of troubles is out of question. Hope
is opium to keep going in life.

Why mind is not accepting to live with what is? especially an
undesirable situation.
-- 
Thanks and best regards
J.Suresh
New No.3, Old No.7,
Chamiers road - 1st Lane,
Alwarpet,
Chennai - 600018
Ph: 044 42030947
Mobile: 91 9884071738

 

Re: [Zen] (unknown)

[Merle Lester]

KG ..have you ever been in contact with an autistic kiddy?...merle

Perhaps you could buy the child a small parrot to care for and train...

KG


On 8/22/2013 10:19 AM, varam...@gmail.com wrote:
> Dear sirs,
>
> Today unfortunately I have beaten my younger child for not speaking. I become 
> very emotional. He is 7 years old, until last month at least he used to 
> parrot what we say and for his name, he will say his name.
>
> For last one month he has stopped talking and all his needs are by just 
> indication or some sound. His schools and therapist complaint to us but can't 
> do by them selves.
>
> He hit me first, that instigated my anger and I wanted to show my anger 
> controlled expecting at least a word to say daddy stop, but he did not. I 
> have holding for than 20 minutes, but all the time he cried but no word came 
> out of his mouth.
>
> I am pained for not speaking and also pained because unnecessarily I have 
> tortured him.
>
> I have asked forgiveness from him, but still he looks at me suspicious 
> whether his father really changed or just another opportunity to beat him.
>
> I asked forgiveness to god, but still my pain not gone and hence this 
> confession to this group.
>
> Pray god for my younger son to speak soon.
>
> I believe in prayers, and group prayer for one cause can do wonders.
>
> What ever I will achieve in any field will not give me satisfaction unless my 
> children become normal. Especially elder son getting better, but only worried 
> about younger son.
>
> Please pray.
>
>
> Suresh
>
> Sent from BlackBerry® on Airtel
>
> 
>
> Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
> reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>





Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links



    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [Zen] clarification

[larry maher]

Do you mean me, Sir? Do you need my clarification? If so, let me just say
it was no big deal when it happened but I'll tell you if you want.


On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 7:36 PM, Merle Lester wrote:

> **
>
>
>
>  clarification please...merle
>
> I have. A few times, a few words. The bridge opened as a reaction to some
> extreme things going on in my life. I just thought it was weird or funny at
> the time. Still do.
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 10:05 AM, pandabananasock <
> pandabananas...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> **
>
>  Has anyone here experienced hearing their mind aloud? I mean really
> HEARING, not thoughts.
>
>
>
>
> --
> *Larry Maher*
>
>
>   
>



-- 
*Larry Maher*

Re: [Zen] clarification

[Merle Lester]

 yes you ...merle
  
Do you mean me, Sir? Do you need my clarification? If so, let me just say it 
was no big deal when it happened but I'll tell you if you want.



On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 7:36 PM, Merle Lester  wrote:

 
>  
>
>
> clarification please...merle
>  
>I have. A few times, a few words. The bridge opened as a reaction to some 
>extreme things going on in my life. I just thought it was weird or funny at 
>the time. Still do.
>
>
>
>On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 10:05 AM, pandabananasock  
>wrote:
>
> 
>>  
>>Has anyone here experienced hearing their mind aloud?  I mean really HEARING, 
>>not thoughts.
>>
>>
>
>
>-- 
>Larry Maher 
>
>


-- 
Larry Maher 
 

[Zen] (unknown)

[Bill!]

PBS,

I could not say I have specifically experienced that; but during shikantaza I 
have experience that later I could not confidently tell you whether the 
experience was sound, or sight, or feeling.  There does not seem to be a 
distinction during the experience.

But these don't include thoughts..Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "pandabananasock"  wrote:
>
> Has anyone here experienced hearing their mind aloud?  I mean really HEARING, 
> not thoughts.
>






Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
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[Zen] Re: the human body

[Bill!]

Larry,

The Zen Forum has no 'head' or 'leader', but does have two co-moderators who 
might be considered that for administrative purposes.  They are Edgar and me 
(Bill!).  The forum 'owner' is Al, but he is no longer active and very rarely 
posts.

I am a 67-year old US citizen who lives in Thailand.  I was first introduced to 
zen in the late 1960's and went through about 10 years of formal and informal 
training as a student of two Japanese Zen masters - one of the Rinzai school 
and one Soto.

You can find out more about me at www.billsmart.com.

I'll leave it to any others on the forum to describe themselves if they wish to 
do so.

Now, how about you?  What's your story vis-a-vis your interest in zen?

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, larry maher  wrote:
>
> Can anyone help me? I'm new here. I was just wondering who the forum head
> was? If the answer is no one could I please find out who Merle or Bill is?
> The one with the 45 yrs of meditation. I won't bother anyone, am just
> trying to figure this out.
> Thank you
> Larry
> 
> 
> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 6:53 PM, Merle Lester wrote:
> 
> > **
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >  bill...so you are still telling me pain is a delusion?... tell me next
> > time when you are in deep pain..try a very bad toothache..see it as a
> > delusion and don't visit the dentist...how long will you last before you
> > realise it is real and needs attention?...merle
> >
> >
> > Merle,
> >
> > As you should very well know by now I don't identify with being a Buddhist.
> >
> > I do however practice zen and have for over 45 years; but just because I
> > practice zen doesn't mean I don't feel pain, or have other delusions. What
> > it means is that (most of the time) I am not attached to those delusions.
> >
> > ...Bill!
> >
> > ...Bill!
> >
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Â bill...acceptance is the key...what sort odf a zen buddhist are
> > you?..merle
> > > Â
> > > Merle,
> > >
> > > Yes! Why me? Why not someone else? Someone I don't like? Someone who
> > doesn't look like me or is the same color as me or speaks the same language
> > as I do. Someone ELSE!
> > >
> > > ...Bill!
> > >
> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  bill...not why me...that's plain silly..why not you?...merle
> > > > ÂÂ
> > > > Merle,
> > > >
> > > > I have been in pain before. When I am in pain I don't think of pain as
> > a judgmental delusion, I think of it as pain and judge it to be bad; and
> > maybe even think "Poor, poor me! Why do I have to suffer all this pain?
> > What did I do to deserve this? I just want it to go away!".
> > > >
> > > > ...Bill!
> > > >
> > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ have you been in pain bill..and thought it was 
> > > > > judgemental
> > delusion?...merle
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > Merle,
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't know how you got from what I said earlier to your post below.
> > > > >
> > > > > The experience of feeling/touch is real. That experience is Buddha
> > Nature. The classification of it as 'pain' is the judgmental delusion. Just
> > as the experience of sight is real. The classification of it as 'a red
> > bird' is the delusion.
> > > > >
> > > > > ...Bill!
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester 
> > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ bill...i see...so if one 
> > > > > > is in pain..this is
> > an illusion..try telling that to someone bowled over and in agony...merle
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > Merle,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I also want to add that experiencing Buddha Nature, such as
> > through zazen, does not involve a disconnection with the body. It involves
> > a disconnection with the illusion of self and all dualism.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ...Bill!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!"  wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Merle,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > No, the body is not a restraint. It is a gateway - at least as
> > far as zen is concerned. The body, or at least its ability to afford
> > awareness of reality, is the necessary component of Buddha Nature for not
> > only humans but all beings as we know them.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ...Bill!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester 
> > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > i know this is a little crazy..however here i
> > go..ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > the human body..can we exist without it?...we do when we are
> > in cyber space although we need the body to get the messages out
> > there...mm that has me stumped!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > would this body less be liken to the meditation
> >

[Zen] Re: clarification

[Bill!]

Merle,

The 'rule of thumb' is that you should not beat your wife with a stick that is 
thicker than your thumb.  That is an old English law and the origin of the term 
'rule of thumb'.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
>
> 
> 
>  
> meaning what bill?. clarification please...merle
> 
> 
>   
> If you beat you wife you must go by the rule of thumb...Bill!
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
> >
> > 
> > 
> >  suresh..it is illegal to hit a child in many  countries... would you 
> > hit your wife? try humour...he hit you first... so you hit back to get him 
> > to speak?.. i'd go to a doctor..maybe there is a medical condition..you 
> > have a computer..do some searching on net... a hug and a cuddle and a 
> > tickle might work heaps better than a slap... .i was a high school teacher 
> > for 30 years and raised 2 kids and have 2 grandkids 5 and 3...never hit any 
> > of them..and never felt like it..i rarely get angry... what makes me 
> > quietly angry?  ignorance and greed..though even that i see is part  
> > and parcel of the human condition that many folk just can't help 
> > themselves..take care..all the best..merle
> > 
> > 
> >   
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, varamtha@ wrote:
> > >
> > > Dear sirs,
> > > 
> > > Today unfortunately I have beaten my younger child for not speaking. I 
> > > become very emotional. He is 7 years old, until last month at least he 
> > > used to parrot what we say and for his name, he will say his name.
> > > 
> > > For last one month he has stopped talking and all his needs are by just 
> > > indication or some sound. His schools and therapist complaint to us but 
> > > can't do by them selves.
> > > 
> > > He hit me first, that instigated my anger and I wanted to show my anger 
> > > controlled expecting at least a word to say daddy stop, but he did not. I 
> > > have holding for than 20 minutes, but all the time he cried but no word 
> > > came out of his mouth.
> > > 
> > > I am pained for not speaking and also pained because unnecessarily I have 
> > > tortured him.
> > > 
> > > I have asked forgiveness from him, but still he looks at me suspicious 
> > > whether his father really changed or just another opportunity to beat him.
> > > 
> > > I asked forgiveness to god, but still my pain not gone and hence this 
> > > confession to this group.
> > > 
> > > Pray god for my younger son to speak soon.
> > > 
> > > I believe in prayers, and group prayer for one cause can do wonders.
> > > 
> > > What ever I will achieve in any field will not give me satisfaction 
> > > unless my children become normal. Especially elder son getting better, 
> > > but only worried about younger son.
> > > 
> > > Please pray.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Suresh 
> > > 
> > > Sent from BlackBerry® on Airtel
> > >
> >
>






Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
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[Zen] What Time Is It?

[Bill!]

...Bill!

Re: [Zen] What Time Is It?

[Merle Lester]

 love this ..merle
  


...Bill!
 

Re: [Zen] Re: the human body

[Merle Lester]

 
 from what i gather you would not have zen if you did not have 
buddhism..correct me if i am incorrect..merle
  
Merle,

Yes.  IMO zen is not an exclusive subset or sect of Buddhism.

Buddhism is a religion has does have many, many lists of principles, dogma, 
doctrines, rituals, precepts, vows, etc...  All these IMO have nothing directly 
to do with zen, but in the case of Zen Buddhism are like an add-on covering and 
adornments that are wrapped around zen.  In the case of most other Buddhist 
sects zen does not play any part, and is in fact seen as a cult.

This is why I draw a distinction between zen with a lower-case 'z' which is a 
common noun and refers only the zen in general, and Zen with an upper-case 'Z' 
which is a proper noun referring to Zen Buddhism.

This again is IMO and is not the traditional view of Zen Buddhism...by those 
that identify themselves as Zen Buddhists.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
>
> 
> 
>  hallo bill...so tell me why oh why is the classification referred to as zen 
> buddhism?... can you have zen without buddhist principles?... merle
>   
> Merle,
> 
> As you should very well know by now I don't identify with being a Buddhist.
> 
> I do however practice zen and have for over 45 years; but just because I 
> practice zen doesn't mean I don't feel pain, or have other delusions.  What 
> it means is that (most of the time) I am not attached to those delusions.
> 
> ...Bill!
> 
> ...Bill!
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
> >
> > 
> > 
> >  bill...acceptance is the key...what sort odf a zen buddhist are 
> > you?..merle
> >   
> > Merle,
> > 
> > Yes!  Why me?  Why not someone else?  Someone I don't like?  Someone who 
> > doesn't look like me or is the same color as me or speaks the same language 
> > as I do.  Someone ELSE!
> > 
> > ...Bill!
> > 
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
> > >
> > > 
> > > 
> > >  bill...not why me...that's plain silly..why not you?...merle
> > >   
> > > Merle,
> > > 
> > > I have been in pain before.  When I am in pain I don't think of pain as a 
> > > judgmental delusion, I think of it as pain and judge it to be bad; and 
> > > maybe even think "Poor, poor me!  Why do I have to suffer all this pain?  
> > > What did I do to deserve this?  I just want it to go away!".
> > > 
> > > ...Bill! 
> > > 
> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > ÃÆ'‚ have you been in pain bill..and thought it was 
> > > > judgemental delusion?...merle
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > ÃÆ'‚  
> > > > Merle,
> > > > 
> > > > I don't know how you got from what I said earlier to your post below.
> > > > 
> > > > The experience of feeling/touch is real.  That experience is Buddha 
> > > > Nature.  The classification of it as 'pain' is the judgmental delusion. 
> > > >  Just as the experience of sight is real.  The classification of it as 
> > > > 'a red bird' is the delusion.
> > > > 
> > > > ...Bill! 
> > > > 
> > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ bill...i see...so if one is 
> > > > > in pain..this is an illusion..try telling that to someone bowled over 
> > > > > and in agony...merle
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚  
> > > > > Merle,
> > > > > 
> > > > > I also want to add that experiencing Buddha Nature, such as through 
> > > > > zazen, does not involve a disconnection with the body.  It involves a 
> > > > > disconnection with the illusion of self and all dualism.
> > > > > 
> > > > > ...Bill!
> > > > > 
> > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!"  wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Merle,
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > No, the body is not a restraint.  It is a gateway - at least as far 
> > > > > > as zen is concerned.  The body, or at least its ability to afford 
> > > > > > awareness of reality, is the necessary component of Buddha Nature 
> > > > > > for not only humans but all beings as we know them.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > ...Bill!
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > i know this is a little crazy..however here i 
> > > > > > > go..ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > the human body..can we exist without it?...we do when we are in 
> > > > > > > cyber space although we need the body to get the messages out 
> > > > > > > there...mm that has me stumped!
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > would this body less be liken to the meditation 
> > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ state that can be 
> > > > > > > achieved once one has surpassed the breath counting saga?
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ i have belief that 
> > > > > > > monks can practise a form of medit

Re: [Zen] Re: clarification

[Merle Lester]

 bill...the idea of beating at all is disgusting..merle


  
Merle,

The 'rule of thumb' is that you should not beat your wife with a stick that is 
thicker than your thumb.  That is an old English law and the origin of the term 
'rule of thumb'.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
>
> 
> 
>  
> meaning what bill?. clarification please...merle
> 
> 
>   
> If you beat you wife you must go by the rule of thumb...Bill!
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
> >
> > 
> > 
> >  suresh..it is illegal to hit a child in many  countries... would you 
> > hit your wife? try humour...he hit you first... so you hit back to get him 
> > to speak?.. i'd go to a doctor..maybe there is a medical condition..you 
> > have a computer..do some searching on net... a hug and a cuddle and a 
> > tickle might work heaps better than a slap... .i was a high school teacher 
> > for 30 years and raised 2 kids and have 2 grandkids 5 and 3...never hit any 
> > of them..and never felt like it..i rarely get angry... what makes me 
> > quietly angry?  ignorance and greed..though even that i see is part  
> > and parcel of the human condition that many folk just can't help 
> > themselves..take care..all the best..merle
> > 
> > 
> >   
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, varamtha@ wrote:
> > >
> > > Dear sirs,
> > > 
> > > Today unfortunately I have beaten my younger child for not speaking. I 
> > > become very emotional. He is 7 years old, until last month at least he 
> > > used to parrot what we say and for his name, he will say his name.
> > > 
> > > For last one month he has stopped talking and all his needs are by just 
> > > indication or some sound. His schools and therapist complaint to us but 
> > > can't do by them selves.
> > > 
> > > He hit me first, that instigated my anger and I wanted to show my anger 
> > > controlled expecting at least a word to say daddy stop, but he did not. I 
> > > have holding for than 20 minutes, but all the time he cried but no word 
> > > came out of his mouth.
> > > 
> > > I am pained for not speaking and also pained because unnecessarily I have 
> > > tortured him.
> > > 
> > > I have asked forgiveness from him, but still he looks at me suspicious 
> > > whether his father really changed or just another opportunity to beat him.
> > > 
> > > I asked forgiveness to god, but still my pain not gone and hence this 
> > > confession to this group.
> > > 
> > > Pray god for my younger son to speak soon.
> > > 
> > > I believe in prayers, and group prayer for one cause can do wonders.
> > > 
> > > What ever I will achieve in any field will not give me satisfaction 
> > > unless my children become normal. Especially elder son getting better, 
> > > but only worried about younger son.
> > > 
> > > Please pray.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Suresh 
> > > 
> > > Sent from BlackBerry® on Airtel
> > >
> >
>


 

Re: [Zen] Evolve or die

[Merle Lester]

 good one..thanks for sharing suresh..merle

THE URGENCY OF TRANSFORMATION - ECKHART TOLLE

When faced with a radical crisis, when the old way of being in the
world, of interacting with each other and with the realm of nature doesn’t
work anymore, when survival is threatened by seemingly insurmountable
problems, an individual lifeform– or a species – will either die or become
extinct or rise above the limitations of its condition through an evolutionary
leap.

It is believed that the lifeforms on this planet first evolved in the sea.
When there were no animals yet to be found on land, the sea was already
teeming with life.

Then at some point, one of the sea creatures must have started to
venture onto dry land. It would perhaps crawl a few inches at
first,then exhausted by the enormous gravitational pull of the planet,
it would return to the water, where gravity is almost nonexistent and
where it could live with much greater ease.

And then it tried again and again and again, and much later would
adapt to life on land, grow feet instead of fins, develop lungs
instead of gills. It seems unlikely that a species would venture into
such an alien environment and undergo an evolutionary transformation
unless it was compelled to do so by some crisis situation.

There may have been a large sea area that got cut off from the main
ocean where the water gradually receded over thousands of years,
forcing fish to leave their habitatand evolve.

Responding to a radical crisis that threatens our very survival – this is
humanity’s challenge now.

The dysfunction of the egoic human mind, recognized already more than
2,500 years ago by the ancient wisdom teachers and now magnified
through science and technology, is for the first time threatening the
survival of the planet.

Until very recently, the transformation of human consciousness – also
pointed to by the ancient teachers – was no more than a possibility,
realized by a few rare individuals here and there, irrespective of
cultural or religious background.

A widespread flowering of human consciousness did not happen because it was
not yet imperative.

A significant portion of the earth’s population will soon recognize, if
they haven’t already done so, that humanity is now faced with a stark choice:
Evolve or die.

A still relatively small but rapidly growing percentage of humanity
is already experiencing within themselves the breakup of the old egoic
mind patterns and the emergence of a new dimension of consciousness.

What is arising now is not a new belief system, a new religion,
spiritual ideology, or mythology.

We are coming to the end not only of mythologies but also of
ideologies and belief systems.

The change goes deeper than the content of your mind, deeper than your
thoughts. In fact, at the heart of the new consciousness is the
transcendence of thought, the
newfound ability of rising above thought, of realizing a dimension
within yourself that is infinitely more vast than thought.

You then no longer derive your identity, your sense of who you are,
from the incessant stream of thinking that in the old consciousness
you take to be yourself.

What a liberation to realize that the “voice in my head” is not who I
am. Who am I
then? The one who sees that. The awareness that is prior to thought, the
space in which the thought – or the emotion or sense perception – happens

-- 
Thanks and best regards
J.Suresh
New No.3, Old No.7,
Chamiers road - 1st Lane,
Alwarpet,
Chennai - 600018
Ph: 044 42030947
Mobile: 91 9884071738




Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links



    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

[Zen] Re: the human body

[Bill!]

Merle,

Well, that all depends on what you mean by 'zen'.

I've defined what I mean by zen (lower-case 'z') many, many times on this forum 
and elsewhere.  A short version of that definition is:  a set of teachings and 
techniques that first lead you to directly experience reality (a.k.a. Buddha 
Nature); and then helps you integrate that experience into every facet of your 
daily life.

These techniques (zazen, chanting, bowing, koans, etc...)do not have to be 
associated with Buddhism.  If they are then that is Zen Buddhism, and in that 
case the teachings are encased in the language of Buddhism.  This is fact is 
how I was introduced to zen, via a Japanese form of Zen Buddhism.

To sum up, I believe zen is not in any way dependent upon Buddhism, Buddhist 
teachings, dogmas, doctrine or practices.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
>
> 
> 
>  
>  from what i gather you would not have zen if you did not have 
> buddhism..correct me if i am incorrect..merle
>   
> Merle,
> 
> Yes.  IMO zen is not an exclusive subset or sect of Buddhism.
> 
> Buddhism is a religion has does have many, many lists of principles, dogma, 
> doctrines, rituals, precepts, vows, etc...  All these IMO have nothing 
> directly to do with zen, but in the case of Zen Buddhism are like an add-on 
> covering and adornments that are wrapped around zen.  In the case of most 
> other Buddhist sects zen does not play any part, and is in fact seen as a 
> cult.
> 
> This is why I draw a distinction between zen with a lower-case 'z' which is a 
> common noun and refers only the zen in general, and Zen with an upper-case 
> 'Z' which is a proper noun referring to Zen Buddhism.
> 
> This again is IMO and is not the traditional view of Zen Buddhism...by those 
> that identify themselves as Zen Buddhists.
> 
> ...Bill!
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
> >
> > 
> > 
> >  hallo bill...so tell me why oh why is the classification referred to as 
> > zen buddhism?... can you have zen without buddhist principles?... merle
> >   
> > Merle,
> > 
> > As you should very well know by now I don't identify with being a Buddhist.
> > 
> > I do however practice zen and have for over 45 years; but just because I 
> > practice zen doesn't mean I don't feel pain, or have other delusions.  What 
> > it means is that (most of the time) I am not attached to those delusions.
> > 
> > ...Bill!
> > 
> > ...Bill!
> > 
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
> > >
> > > 
> > > 
> > >  bill...acceptance is the key...what sort odf a zen buddhist are 
> > > you?..merle
> > >   
> > > Merle,
> > > 
> > > Yes!  Why me?  Why not someone else?  Someone I don't like?  Someone who 
> > > doesn't look like me or is the same color as me or speaks the same 
> > > language as I do.  Someone ELSE!
> > > 
> > > ...Bill!
> > > 
> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > ÃÆ'‚ bill...not why me...that's plain silly..why not 
> > > > you?...merle
> > > > ÃÆ'‚  
> > > > Merle,
> > > > 
> > > > I have been in pain before.  When I am in pain I don't think of pain as 
> > > > a judgmental delusion, I think of it as pain and judge it to be bad; 
> > > > and maybe even think "Poor, poor me!  Why do I have to suffer all this 
> > > > pain?  What did I do to deserve this?  I just want it to go away!".
> > > > 
> > > > ...Bill! 
> > > > 
> > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ have you been in pain 
> > > > > bill..and thought it was judgemental delusion?...merle
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚  
> > > > > Merle,
> > > > > 
> > > > > I don't know how you got from what I said earlier to your post below.
> > > > > 
> > > > > The experience of feeling/touch is real.  That experience is Buddha 
> > > > > Nature.  The classification of it as 'pain' is the judgmental 
> > > > > delusion.  Just as the experience of sight is real.  The 
> > > > > classification of it as 'a red bird' is the delusion.
> > > > > 
> > > > > ...Bill! 
> > > > > 
> > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'â€Å
> > > > > > ¡ÃÆ'‚ bill...i see...so if one is in pain..this is 
> > > > > > an illusion..try telling that to someone bowled over and in 
> > > > > > agony...merle
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'â€Å
> > > > > > ¡ÃÆ'‚  
> > > > > > Merle,
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > I also want to add that experiencing Buddha Nature, such as through 
> > > > > > zazen, does not involve a disconnection with the body.  It involves 
> > > > > > a disconnection with the illusion of self and a

Re: [Zen] Re: the human body

[larry maher]

Zen is a religion looking for a God. The Buddha said 'there is no way to
prove God and there is no way to not prove, so believe whatever works for
you.' That's why I like Eastern thought, Hindu's cool also, just too many
gimics and sideshows and people thinking dressing in white bathrobes helps
get you somewhere. Lots of culture confusion. Just my opinion.


On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 11:52 PM, Merle Lester wrote:

> **
>
>
>
>
>  from what i gather you would not have zen if you did not have
> buddhism..correct me if i am incorrect..merle
>
> Merle,
>
> Yes. IMO zen is not an exclusive subset or sect of Buddhism.
>
> Buddhism is a religion has does have many, many lists of principles,
> dogma, doctrines, rituals, precepts, vows, etc... All these IMO have
> nothing directly to do with zen, but in the case of Zen Buddhism are like
> an add-on covering and adornments that are wrapped around zen. In the case
> of most other Buddhist sects zen does not play any part, and is in fact
> seen as a cult.
>
> This is why I draw a distinction between zen with a lower-case 'z' which
> is a common noun and refers only the zen in general, and Zen with an
> upper-case 'Z' which is a proper noun referring to Zen Buddhism.
>
> This again is IMO and is not the traditional view of Zen Buddhism...by
> those that identify themselves as Zen Buddhists.
>
> ...Bill!
>
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Â hallo bill...so tell me why oh why is the classification referred to
> as zen buddhism?... can you have zen without buddhist principles?... merle
> > Â
> > Merle,
> >
> > As you should very well know by now I don't identify with being a
> Buddhist.
> >
> > I do however practice zen and have for over 45 years; but just because I
> practice zen doesn't mean I don't feel pain, or have other delusions. What
> it means is that (most of the time) I am not attached to those delusions.
> >
> > ...Bill!
> >
> > ...Bill!
> >
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >  bill...acceptance is the key...what sort odf a zen buddhist are
> you?..merle
> > > ÂÂ
> > > Merle,
> > >
> > > Yes! Why me? Why not someone else? Someone I don't like? Someone who
> doesn't look like me or is the same color as me or speaks the same language
> as I do. Someone ELSE!
> > >
> > > ...Bill!
> > >
> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  bill...not why me...that's plain silly..why not you?...merle
> > > > ÂÂÂ
> > > > Merle,
> > > >
> > > > I have been in pain before. When I am in pain I don't think of pain
> as a judgmental delusion, I think of it as pain and judge it to be bad; and
> maybe even think "Poor, poor me! Why do I have to suffer all this pain?
> What did I do to deserve this? I just want it to go away!".
> > > >
> > > > ...Bill!
> > > >
> > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester 
> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ÃÆ'‚ have you been in pain bill..and thought it was
> judgemental delusion?...merle
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ÃÆ'‚ÂÂÂ
> > > > > Merle,
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't know how you got from what I said earlier to your post
> below.
> > > > >
> > > > > The experience of feeling/touch is real. That experience is Buddha
> Nature. The classification of it as 'pain' is the judgmental delusion. Just
> as the experience of sight is real. The classification of it as 'a red
> bird' is the delusion.
> > > > >
> > > > > ...Bill!
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester 
> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ bill...i see...so if
> one is in pain..this is an illusion..try telling that to someone bowled
> over and in agony...merle
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂÂ
> > > > > > Merle,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I also want to add that experiencing Buddha Nature, such as
> through zazen, does not involve a disconnection with the body. It involves
> a disconnection with the illusion of self and all dualism.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ...Bill!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!"  wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Merle,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > No, the body is not a restraint. It is a gateway - at least as
> far as zen is concerned. The body, or at least its ability to afford
> awareness of reality, is the necessary component of Buddha Nature for not
> only humans but all beings as we know them.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ...Bill!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester 
> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > i know this is a little crazy..however here i
> go..ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂÂ
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > the human body..can we exist without it?...we do when we are
> in cyber space although we need the body to get the messages out
> there...mm 

RE: [Zen] Re: the human body

[uerusuboyo]

Bill!,Would you agree that you probably would never have experienced 
'zen' without Siddharta Gotama's enlightenment and the spreading of the sutras? 
I agree that experiencing Buddha Nature is not intrinsically dependent on them, 
but it may as well be. Without Buddha's rediscovering of Buddha Nature we'd 
probably still be believing in souls and the reality of an ego. 
MikeSent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad

Re: [Zen] Evolve or die

[larry maher]

Heck, don't the Veda's go back 5 or 6 thousand years?


On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 7:44 AM, SURESH JAGADEESAN wrote:

> THE URGENCY OF TRANSFORMATION - ECKHART TOLLE
>
> When faced with a radical crisis, when the old way of being in the
> world, of interacting with each other and with the realm of nature doesn’t
> work anymore, when survival is threatened by seemingly insurmountable
> problems, an individual lifeform– or a species – will either die or become
> extinct or rise above the limitations of its condition through an
> evolutionary
> leap.
>
> It is believed that the lifeforms on this planet first evolved in the sea.
> When there were no animals yet to be found on land, the sea was already
> teeming with life.
>
> Then at some point, one of the sea creatures must have started to
> venture onto dry land. It would perhaps crawl a few inches at
> first,then exhausted by the enormous gravitational pull of the planet,
> it would return to the water, where gravity is almost nonexistent and
> where it could live with much greater ease.
>
> And then it tried again and again and again, and much later would
> adapt to life on land, grow feet instead of fins, develop lungs
> instead of gills. It seems unlikely that a species would venture into
> such an alien environment and undergo an evolutionary transformation
> unless it was compelled to do so by some crisis situation.
>
> There may have been a large sea area that got cut off from the main
> ocean where the water gradually receded over thousands of years,
> forcing fish to leave their habitatand evolve.
>
> Responding to a radical crisis that threatens our very survival – this is
> humanity’s challenge now.
>
> The dysfunction of the egoic human mind, recognized already more than
> 2,500 years ago by the ancient wisdom teachers and now magnified
> through science and technology, is for the first time threatening the
> survival of the planet.
>
> Until very recently, the transformation of human consciousness – also
> pointed to by the ancient teachers – was no more than a possibility,
> realized by a few rare individuals here and there, irrespective of
> cultural or religious background.
>
> A widespread flowering of human consciousness did not happen because it was
> not yet imperative.
>
> A significant portion of the earth’s population will soon recognize, if
> they haven’t already done so, that humanity is now faced with a stark
> choice:
> Evolve or die.
>
>  A still relatively small but rapidly growing percentage of humanity
> is already experiencing within themselves the breakup of the old egoic
> mind patterns and the emergence of a new dimension of consciousness.
>
> What is arising now is not a new belief system, a new religion,
> spiritual ideology, or mythology.
>
> We are coming to the end not only of mythologies but also of
> ideologies and belief systems.
>
> The change goes deeper than the content of your mind, deeper than your
> thoughts. In fact, at the heart of the new consciousness is the
> transcendence of thought, the
> newfound ability of rising above thought, of realizing a dimension
> within yourself that is infinitely more vast than thought.
>
> You then no longer derive your identity, your sense of who you are,
> from the incessant stream of thinking that in the old consciousness
> you take to be yourself.
>
> What a liberation to realize that the “voice in my head” is not who I
> am. Who am I
> then? The one who sees that. The awareness that is prior to thought, the
> space in which the thought – or the emotion or sense perception – happens
>
> --
> Thanks and best regards
> J.Suresh
> New No.3, Old No.7,
> Chamiers road - 1st Lane,
> Alwarpet,
> Chennai - 600018
> Ph: 044 42030947
> Mobile: 91 9884071738
>
>
> 
>
> Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are
> reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


-- 
*Larry Maher*

Re: [Zen] Re: the human body

[uerusuboyo]

Larry,Why would Zen be looking for a God? That would just be creating 
an unnecessary dualism. The universe works perfectly well without the need to 
create a Creator.MikeSent from Yahoo! Mail for 
iPad

[Zen] buddha nature

[Merle Lester]

 
 Bill...still confused...so zen is  chan...?..if you wish to experience buddha 
nature directly you do zen?... no buddhism involved...
 so why are you desiring to experience buddha nature and then claim it has 
nothing to do with buddhism?...  merle
  
Merle,

Well, that all depends on what you mean by 'zen'.

I've defined what I mean by zen (lower-case 'z') many, many times on this forum 
and elsewhere.  A short version of that definition is:  a set of teachings and 
techniques that first lead you to directly experience reality (a.k.a. Buddha 
Nature); and then helps you integrate that experience into every facet of your 
daily life.

These techniques (zazen, chanting, bowing, koans, etc...)do not have to be 
associated with Buddhism.  If they are then that is Zen Buddhism, and in that 
case the teachings are encased in the language of Buddhism.  This is fact is 
how I was introduced to zen, via a Japanese form of Zen Buddhism.

To sum up, I believe zen is not in any way dependent upon Buddhism, Buddhist 
teachings, dogmas, doctrine or practices.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
>
> 
> 
>  
>  from what i gather you would not have zen if you did not have 
> buddhism..correct me if i am incorrect..merle
>   
> Merle,
> 
> Yes.  IMO zen is not an exclusive subset or sect of Buddhism.
> 
> Buddhism is a religion has does have many, many lists of principles, dogma, 
> doctrines, rituals, precepts, vows, etc...  All these IMO have nothing 
> directly to do with zen, but in the case of Zen Buddhism are like an add-on 
> covering and adornments that are wrapped around zen.  In the case of most 
> other Buddhist sects zen does not play any part, and is in fact seen as a 
> cult.
> 
> This is why I draw a distinction between zen with a lower-case 'z' which is a 
> common noun and refers only the zen in general, and Zen with an upper-case 
> 'Z' which is a proper noun referring to Zen Buddhism.
> 
> This again is IMO and is not the traditional view of Zen Buddhism...by those 
> that identify themselves as Zen Buddhists.
> 
> ...Bill!
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
> >
> > 
> > 
> >  hallo bill...so tell me why oh why is the classification referred to as 
> > zen buddhism?... can you have zen without buddhist principles?... merle
> >   
> > Merle,
> > 
> > As you should very well know by now I don't identify with being a Buddhist.
> > 
> > I do however practice zen and have for over 45 years; but just because I 
> > practice zen doesn't mean I don't feel pain, or have other delusions.  What 
> > it means is that (most of the time) I am not attached to those delusions.
> > 
> > ...Bill!
> > 
> > ...Bill!
> > 
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
> > >
> > > 
> > > 
> > >  bill...acceptance is the key...what sort odf a zen buddhist are 
> > > you?..merle
> > >   
> > > Merle,
> > > 
> > > Yes!  Why me?  Why not someone else?  Someone I don't like?  Someone who 
> > > doesn't look like me or is the same color as me or speaks the same 
> > > language as I do.  Someone ELSE!
> > > 
> > > ...Bill!
> > > 
> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > ÃÆ'‚ bill...not why me...that's plain silly..why not 
> > > > you?...merle
> > > > ÃÆ'‚  
> > > > Merle,
> > > > 
> > > > I have been in pain before.  When I am in pain I don't think of pain as 
> > > > a judgmental delusion, I think of it as pain and judge it to be bad; 
> > > > and maybe even think "Poor, poor me!  Why do I have to suffer all this 
> > > > pain?  What did I do to deserve this?  I just want it to go away!".
> > > > 
> > > > ...Bill! 
> > > > 
> > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ have you been in pain 
> > > > > bill..and thought it was judgemental delusion?...merle
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚  
> > > > > Merle,
> > > > > 
> > > > > I don't know how you got from what I said earlier to your post below.
> > > > > 
> > > > > The experience of feeling/touch is real.  That experience is Buddha 
> > > > > Nature.  The classification of it as 'pain' is the judgmental 
> > > > > delusion.  Just as the experience of sight is real.  The 
> > > > > classification of it as 'a red bird' is the delusion.
> > > > > 
> > > > > ...Bill! 
> > > > > 
> > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂÂ
> > > > > >  bill...i see...so if one is in pain..this is an illusion..try 
> > > > > > telling that to someone bowled over and in agony...merle
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ

Re: [Zen] Re: the human body

[larry maher]

Yes, yes totally agree. I just mentioned reading years ago that the Buddha
said believe whatever's easier while following the middle way.


On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 2:27 AM,  wrote:

> **
>
>
> Larry,
>
> Why would Zen be looking for a God? That would just be creating an
> unnecessary dualism. The universe works perfectly well without the need to
> create a Creator.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
>
>  --
> * From: * larry maher ;
> * To: * ;
> * Subject: * Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
> * Sent: * Sat, Aug 24, 2013 6:20:48 AM
>
>
>
> Zen is a religion looking for a God. The Buddha said 'there is no way to
> prove God and there is no way to not prove, so believe whatever works for
> you.' That's why I like Eastern thought, Hindu's cool also, just too many
> gimics and sideshows and people thinking dressing in white bathrobes helps
> get you somewhere. Lots of culture confusion. Just my opinion.
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 11:52 PM, Merle Lester wrote:
>
>> **
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  from what i gather you would not have zen if you did not have
>> buddhism..correct me if i am incorrect..merle
>>
>> Merle,
>>
>> Yes. IMO zen is not an exclusive subset or sect of Buddhism.
>>
>> Buddhism is a religion has does have many, many lists of principles,
>> dogma, doctrines, rituals, precepts, vows, etc... All these IMO have
>> nothing directly to do with zen, but in the case of Zen Buddhism are like
>> an add-on covering and adornments that are wrapped around zen. In the case
>> of most other Buddhist sects zen does not play any part, and is in fact
>> seen as a cult.
>>
>> This is why I draw a distinction between zen with a lower-case 'z' which
>> is a common noun and refers only the zen in general, and Zen with an
>> upper-case 'Z' which is a proper noun referring to Zen Buddhism.
>>
>> This again is IMO and is not the traditional view of Zen Buddhism...by
>> those that identify themselves as Zen Buddhists.
>>
>> ...Bill!
>>
>> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Â hallo bill...so tell me why oh why is the classification referred to
>> as zen buddhism?... can you have zen without buddhist principles?... merle
>> > Â
>> > Merle,
>> >
>> > As you should very well know by now I don't identify with being a
>> Buddhist.
>> >
>> > I do however practice zen and have for over 45 years; but just because
>> I practice zen doesn't mean I don't feel pain, or have other delusions.
>> What it means is that (most of the time) I am not attached to those
>> delusions.
>> >
>> > ...Bill!
>> >
>> > ...Bill!
>> >
>> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >  bill...acceptance is the key...what sort odf a zen buddhist are
>> you?..merle
>> > > ÂÂ
>> > > Merle,
>> > >
>> > > Yes! Why me? Why not someone else? Someone I don't like? Someone who
>> doesn't look like me or is the same color as me or speaks the same language
>> as I do. Someone ELSE!
>> > >
>> > > ...Bill!
>> > >
>> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >  bill...not why me...that's plain silly..why not
>> you?...merle
>> > > > ÂÂÂ
>> > > > Merle,
>> > > >
>> > > > I have been in pain before. When I am in pain I don't think of pain
>> as a judgmental delusion, I think of it as pain and judge it to be bad; and
>> maybe even think "Poor, poor me! Why do I have to suffer all this pain?
>> What did I do to deserve this? I just want it to go away!".
>> > > >
>> > > > ...Bill!
>> > > >
>> > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester 
>> wrote:
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > ÃÆ'‚ have you been in pain bill..and thought it
>> was judgemental delusion?...merle
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > ÃÆ'‚ÂÂÂ
>> > > > > Merle,
>> > > > >
>> > > > > I don't know how you got from what I said earlier to your post
>> below.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > The experience of feeling/touch is real. That experience is
>> Buddha Nature. The classification of it as 'pain' is the judgmental
>> delusion. Just as the experience of sight is real. The classification of it
>> as 'a red bird' is the delusion.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > ...Bill!
>> > > > >
>> > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester 
>> wrote:
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ bill...i see...so if
>> one is in pain..this is an illusion..try telling that to someone bowled
>> over and in agony...merle
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂÂ
>> > > > > > Merle,
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > I also want to add that experiencing Buddha Nature, such as
>> through zazen, does not involve a disconnection with the body. It involves
>> a disconnection with the illusion of self and all dualism.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > ...Bill!
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!"  wrote:
>> > > > > > >
>> > > 

Re: [Zen] buddha nature

[larry maher]

Chan is Chinese interpretation zen is Japanese. Tibean is Dali Lama?


On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 2:30 AM, Merle Lester wrote:

> **
>
>
>
>
>  Bill...still confused...so zen is  chan...?..if you wish to experience
> buddha nature directly you do zen?... no buddhism involved...
>  so why are you desiring to experience buddha nature and then claim it has
> nothing to do with buddhism?...  merle
>
> Merle,
>
> Well, that all depends on what you mean by 'zen'.
>
> I've defined what I mean by zen (lower-case 'z') many, many times on this
> forum and elsewhere. A short version of that definition is: a set of
> teachings and techniques that first lead you to directly experience reality
> (a.k.a. Buddha Nature); and then helps you integrate that experience into
> every facet of your daily life.
>
> These techniques (zazen, chanting, bowing, koans, etc...)do not have to be
> associated with Buddhism. If they are then that is Zen Buddhism, and in
> that case the teachings are encased in the language of Buddhism. This is
> fact is how I was introduced to zen, via a Japanese form of Zen Buddhism.
>
> To sum up, I believe zen is not in any way dependent upon Buddhism,
> Buddhist teachings, dogmas, doctrine or practices.
>
> ...Bill!
>
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Â
> > Â from what i gather you would not have zen if you did not have
> buddhism..correct me if i am incorrect..merle
> > Â
> > Merle,
> >
> > Yes. IMO zen is not an exclusive subset or sect of Buddhism.
> >
> > Buddhism is a religion has does have many, many lists of principles,
> dogma, doctrines, rituals, precepts, vows, etc... All these IMO have
> nothing directly to do with zen, but in the case of Zen Buddhism are like
> an add-on covering and adornments that are wrapped around zen. In the case
> of most other Buddhist sects zen does not play any part, and is in fact
> seen as a cult.
> >
> > This is why I draw a distinction between zen with a lower-case 'z' which
> is a common noun and refers only the zen in general, and Zen with an
> upper-case 'Z' which is a proper noun referring to Zen Buddhism.
> >
> > This again is IMO and is not the traditional view of Zen Buddhism...by
> those that identify themselves as Zen Buddhists.
> >
> > ...Bill!
> >
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >  hallo bill...so tell me why oh why is the classification referred
> to as zen buddhism?... can you have zen without buddhist principles?...
> merle
> > > ÂÂ
> > > Merle,
> > >
> > > As you should very well know by now I don't identify with being a
> Buddhist.
> > >
> > > I do however practice zen and have for over 45 years; but just because
> I practice zen doesn't mean I don't feel pain, or have other delusions.
> What it means is that (most of the time) I am not attached to those
> delusions.
> > >
> > > ...Bill!
> > >
> > > ...Bill!
> > >
> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  bill...acceptance is the key...what sort odf a zen buddhist
> are you?..merle
> > > > ÂÂÂ
> > > > Merle,
> > > >
> > > > Yes! Why me? Why not someone else? Someone I don't like? Someone who
> doesn't look like me or is the same color as me or speaks the same language
> as I do. Someone ELSE!
> > > >
> > > > ...Bill!
> > > >
> > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester 
> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ÃÆ'‚ bill...not why me...that's plain silly..why
> not you?...merle
> > > > > ÃÆ'‚ÂÂÂ
> > > > > Merle,
> > > > >
> > > > > I have been in pain before. When I am in pain I don't think of
> pain as a judgmental delusion, I think of it as pain and judge it to be
> bad; and maybe even think "Poor, poor me! Why do I have to suffer all this
> pain? What did I do to deserve this? I just want it to go away!".
> > > > >
> > > > > ...Bill!
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester 
> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ have you been in pain
> bill..and thought it was judgemental delusion?...merle
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂÂ
> > > > > > Merle,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I don't know how you got from what I said earlier to your post
> below.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The experience of feeling/touch is real. That experience is
> Buddha Nature. The classification of it as 'pain' is the judgmental
> delusion. Just as the experience of sight is real. The classification of it
> as 'a red bird' is the delusion.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ...Bill!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester 
> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ 
> bill...i
> see...so if one is in pain..this is an illusion..try telling that to
> someone bowled over and in agon

Re: [Zen] Re: the human body

[Merle Lester]

 mike..for you it might..for others it is a source of comfort..don't be so 
harsh..merle


  
Larry,

Why would Zen be looking for a God? That would just be creating an unnecessary 
dualism. The universe works perfectly well without the need to create a Creator.

Mike



Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad 




 From:  larry maher ; 
To:  ; 
Subject:  Re: [Zen] Re: the human body 
Sent:  Sat, Aug 24, 2013 6:20:48 AM 


  
Zen is a religion looking for a God. The Buddha said 'there is no way to prove 
God and there is no way to not prove, so believe whatever works for you.' 
That's why I like Eastern thought, Hindu's cool also, just too many gimics and 
sideshows and people thinking dressing in white bathrobes helps get you 
somewhere. Lots of culture confusion. Just my opinion.



On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 11:52 PM, Merle Lester  wrote:

 
>  
>
>
> 
> from what i gather you would not have zen if you did not have 
>buddhism..correct me if i am incorrect..merle
>  
>Merle,
>
>Yes.  IMO zen is not an exclusive subset or sect of Buddhism.
>
>Buddhism is a religion has does have many, many lists of principles, dogma, 
>doctrines, rituals, precepts, vows, etc...  All these IMO have nothing 
>directly to do with zen, but in the case of Zen Buddhism are like an add-on 
>covering and adornments that are wrapped around zen.  In the case of most 
>other Buddhist sects zen does not play any part, and is in fact seen as a cult.
>
>This is why I draw a distinction between zen with a lower-case 'z' which is a 
>common noun and refers only the zen in general, and Zen with an upper-case 'Z' 
>which is a proper noun referring to Zen Buddhism.
>
>This again is IMO and is not the traditional view of Zen Buddhism...by those 
>that identify themselves as Zen Buddhists.
>
>...Bill!
>
>--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
>>
>> 
>> 
>>  hallo bill...so tell me why oh why is the classification referred to as 
>> zen buddhism?... can you have zen without buddhist principles?... merle
>>   
>> Merle,
>> 
>> As you should very well know by now I don't identify with being a Buddhist.
>> 
>> I do however practice zen and have for over 45 years; but just because I 
>> practice zen doesn't mean I don't feel pain, or have other delusions.  What 
>> it means is that (most of the time) I am not attached to those delusions.
>> 
>> ...Bill!
>> 
>> ...Bill!
>> 
>> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
>> >
>> > 
>> > 
>> >  bill...acceptance is the key...what sort odf a zen buddhist are 
>> > you?..merle
>> >   
>> > Merle,
>> > 
>> > Yes!  Why me?  Why not someone else?  Someone I don't like?  Someone who 
>> > doesn't look like me or is the same color as me or speaks the same 
>> > language as I do.  Someone ELSE!
>> > 
>> > ...Bill!
>> > 
>> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
>> > >
>> > > 
>> > > 
>> > >  bill...not why me...that's plain silly..why not you?...merle
>> > >   
>> > > Merle,
>> > > 
>> > > I have been in pain before.  When I am in pain I don't think of pain as 
>> > > a judgmental delusion, I think of it as pain and judge it to be bad; and 
>> > > maybe even think "Poor, poor me!  Why do I have to suffer all this pain? 
>> > >  What did I do to deserve this?  I just want it to go away!".
>> > > 
>> > > ...Bill! 
>> > > 
>> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > 
>> > > > 
>> > > > ÃÆ'‚ have you been in pain bill..and thought it was 
>> > > > judgemental delusion?...merle
>> > > > 
>> > > > 
>> > > > ÃÆ'‚  
>> > > > Merle,
>> > > > 
>> > > > I don't know how you got from what I said earlier to your post below.
>> > > > 
>> > > > The experience of feeling/touch is real.  That experience is Buddha 
>> > > > Nature.  The classification of it as 'pain' is the judgmental 
>> > > > delusion.  Just as the experience of sight is real.  The 
>> > > > classification of it as 'a red bird' is the delusion.
>> > > > 
>> > > > ...Bill! 
>> > > > 
>> > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
>> > > > >
>> > > > > 
>> > > > > 
>> > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ bill...i see...so if one 
>> > > > > is in pain..this is an illusion..try telling that to someone bowled 
>> > > > > over and in agony...merle
>> > > > > 
>> > > > > 
>> > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚  
>> > > > > Merle,
>> > > > > 
>> > > > > I also want to add that experiencing Buddha Nature, such as through 
>> > > > > zazen, does not involve a disconnection with the body.  It involves 
>> > > > > a disconnection with the illusion of self and all dualism.
>> > > > > 
>> > > > > ...Bill!
>> > > > > 
>> > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!"  wrote:
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Merle,
>> > > > > > 
>> > > > > > No, the body is not a restraint.  It is a gateway - at least as 
>> > > > > > far as zen is concerned.  The body, or at least its ability t

Re: [Zen] Re: the human body

[Merle Lester]

mike excuse me...what's soul got to do with ego?..merle
 


  
Bill!,

Would you agree that you probably would never have experienced 'zen' without 
Siddharta Gotama's enlightenment and the spreading of the sutras? I agree that 
experiencing Buddha Nature is not intrinsically dependent on them, but it may 
as well be. Without Buddha's rediscovering of Buddha Nature we'd probably still 
be believing in souls and the reality of an ego. 

Mike


Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad 




 From:  Bill! ; 
To:  ; 
Subject:  [Zen] Re: the human body 
Sent:  Sat, Aug 24, 2013 4:24:25 AM 


  
Merle,

Well, that all depends on what you mean by 'zen'.

I've defined what I mean by zen (lower-case 'z') many, many times on this forum 
and elsewhere.  A short version of that definition is:  a set of teachings and 
techniques that first lead you to directly experience reality (a.k.a. Buddha 
Nature); and then helps you integrate that experience into every facet of your 
daily life.

These techniques (zazen, chanting, bowing, koans, etc...)do not have to be 
associated with Buddhism.  If they are then that is Zen Buddhism, and in that 
case the teachings are encased in the language of Buddhism.  This is fact is 
how I was introduced to zen, via a Japanese form of Zen Buddhism.

To sum up, I believe zen is not in any way dependent upon Buddhism, Buddhist 
teachings, dogmas, doctrine or practices.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
>
> 
> 
>  
>  from what i gather you would not have zen if you did not have 
> buddhism..correct me if i am incorrect..merle
>   
> Merle,
> 
> Yes.  IMO zen is not an exclusive subset or sect of Buddhism.
> 
> Buddhism is a religion has does have many, many lists of principles, dogma, 
> doctrines, rituals, precepts, vows, etc...  All these IMO have nothing 
> directly to do with zen, but in the case of Zen Buddhism are like an add-on 
> covering and adornments that are wrapped around zen.  In the case of most 
> other Buddhist sects zen does not play any part, and is in fact seen as a 
> cult.
> 
> This is why I draw a distinction between zen with a lower-case 'z' which is a 
> common noun and refers only the zen in general, and Zen with an upper-case 
> 'Z' which is a proper noun referring to Zen Buddhism.
> 
> This again is IMO and is not the traditional view of Zen Buddhism...by those 
> that identify themselves as Zen Buddhists.
> 
> ...Bill!
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
> >
> > 
> > 
> >  hallo bill...so tell me why oh why is the classification referred to as 
> > zen buddhism?... can you have zen without buddhist principles?... merle
> >   
> > Merle,
> > 
> > As you should very well know by now I don't identify with being a Buddhist.
> > 
> > I do however practice zen and have for over 45 years; but just because I 
> > practice zen doesn't mean I don't feel pain, or have other delusions.  What 
> > it means is that (most of the time) I am not attached to those delusions.
> > 
> > ...Bill!
> > 
> > ...Bill!
> > 
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
> > >
> > > 
> > > 
> > >  bill...acceptance is the key...what sort odf a zen buddhist are 
> > > you?..merle
> > >   
> > > Merle,
> > > 
> > > Yes!  Why me?  Why not someone else?  Someone I don't like?  Someone who 
> > > doesn't look like me or is the same color as me or speaks the same 
> > > language as I do.  Someone ELSE!
> > > 
> > > ...Bill!
> > > 
> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > ÃÆ'‚ bill...not why me...that's plain silly..why not 
> > > > you?...merle
> > > > ÃÆ'‚  
> > > > Merle,
> > > > 
> > > > I have been in pain before.  When I am in pain I don't think of pain as 
> > > > a judgmental delusion, I think of it as pain and judge it to be bad; 
> > > > and maybe even think "Poor, poor me!  Why do I have to suffer all this 
> > > > pain?  What did I do to deserve this?  I just want it to go away!".
> > > > 
> > > > ...Bill! 
> > > > 
> > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ have you been in pain 
> > > > > bill..and thought it was judgemental delusion?...merle
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚  
> > > > > Merle,
> > > > > 
> > > > > I don't know how you got from what I said earlier to your post below.
> > > > > 
> > > > > The experience of feeling/touch is real.  That experience is Buddha 
> > > > > Nature.  The classification of it as 'pain' is the judgmental 
> > > > > delusion.  Just as the experience of sight is real.  The 
> > > > > classification of it as 'a red bird' is the delusion.
> > > > > 
> > > > > ...Bill! 
> > > > > 
> > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > >

Re: [Zen] buddha nature

[Merle Lester]

 so what is american...?...merle


  
Chan is Chinese interpretation zen is Japanese. Tibean is Dali Lama? 



On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 2:30 AM, Merle Lester  wrote:

 
>  
>
>
> 
> Bill...still confused...so zen is  chan...?..if you wish to experience buddha 
>nature directly you do zen?... no buddhism involved...
> so why are you desiring to experience buddha nature and then claim it has 
>nothing to do with buddhism?...  merle
>  
>Merle,
>
>Well, that all depends on what you mean by 'zen'.
>
>I've defined what I mean by zen (lower-case 'z') many, many times on this 
>forum and elsewhere.  A short version of that definition is:  a set of 
>teachings and techniques that first lead you to directly experience reality 
>(a.k.a. Buddha Nature); and then helps you integrate that experience into 
>every facet of your daily life.
>
>These techniques (zazen, chanting, bowing, koans, etc...)do not have to be 
>associated with Buddhism.  If they are then that is Zen Buddhism, and in that 
>case the teachings are encased in the language of Buddhism.  This is fact is 
>how I was introduced to zen, via a Japanese form of Zen Buddhism.
>
>To sum up, I believe zen is not in any way dependent upon Buddhism, Buddhist 
>teachings, dogmas, doctrine or practices.
>
>...Bill!
>
>--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
>>
>> 
>> 
>>  
>>  from what i gather you would not have zen if you did not have 
>> buddhism..correct me if i am incorrect..merle
>>   
>> Merle,
>> 
>> Yes.  IMO zen is not an exclusive subset or sect of Buddhism.
>> 
>> Buddhism is a religion has does have many, many lists of principles, dogma, 
>> doctrines, rituals, precepts, vows, etc...  All these IMO have nothing 
>> directly to do with zen, but in the case of Zen Buddhism are like an add-on 
>> covering and adornments that are wrapped around zen.  In the case of most 
>> other Buddhist sects zen does not play any part, and is in fact seen as a 
>> cult.
>> 
>> This is why I draw a distinction between zen with a lower-case 'z' which is 
>> a common noun and refers only the zen in general, and Zen with an upper-case 
>> 'Z' which is a proper noun referring to Zen Buddhism.
>> 
>> This again is IMO and is not the traditional view of Zen Buddhism...by those 
>> that identify themselves as Zen Buddhists.
>> 
>> ...Bill!
>> 
>> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
>> >
>> > 
>> > 
>> >  hallo bill...so tell me why oh why is the classification referred to 
>> > as zen buddhism?... can you have zen without buddhist principles?... merle
>> >   
>> > Merle,
>> > 
>> > As you should very well know by now I don't identify with being a Buddhist.
>> > 
>> > I do however practice zen and have for over 45 years; but just because I 
>> > practice zen doesn't mean I don't feel pain, or have other delusions.  
>> > What it means is that (most of the time) I am not attached to those 
>> > delusions.
>> > 
>> > ...Bill!
>> > 
>> > ...Bill!
>> > 
>> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
>> > >
>> > > 
>> > > 
>> > >  bill...acceptance is the key...what sort odf a zen buddhist are 
>> > > you?..merle
>> > >   
>> > > Merle,
>> > > 
>> > > Yes!  Why me?  Why not someone else?  Someone I don't like?  Someone who 
>> > > doesn't look like me or is the same color as me or speaks the same 
>> > > language as I do.  Someone ELSE!
>> > > 
>> > > ...Bill!
>> > > 
>> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > 
>> > > > 
>> > > > ÃÆ'‚ bill...not why me...that's plain silly..why not 
>> > > > you?...merle
>> > > > ÃÆ'‚  
>> > > > Merle,
>> > > > 
>> > > > I have been in pain before.  When I am in pain I don't think of pain 
>> > > > as a judgmental delusion, I think of it as pain and judge it to be 
>> > > > bad; and maybe even think "Poor, poor me!  Why do I have to suffer all 
>> > > > this pain?  What did I do to deserve this?  I just want it to go 
>> > > > away!".
>> > > > 
>> > > > ...Bill! 
>> > > > 
>> > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
>> > > > >
>> > > > > 
>> > > > > 
>> > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ have you been in pain 
>> > > > > bill..and thought it was judgemental delusion?...merle
>> > > > > 
>> > > > > 
>> > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚  
>> > > > > Merle,
>> > > > > 
>> > > > > I don't know how you got from what I said earlier to your post below.
>> > > > > 
>> > > > > The experience of feeling/touch is real.  That experience is Buddha 
>> > > > > Nature.  The classification of it as 'pain' is the judgmental 
>> > > > > delusion.  Just as the experience of sight is real.  The 
>> > > > > classification of it as 'a red bird' is the delusion.
>> > > > > 
>> > > > > ...Bill! 
>> > > > > 
>> > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > 
>> > > > > > 
>> > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
>> > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡Ã

Re: [Zen] buddha nature

[larry maher]

I think we looking for an American buddhism. Want to be it?


On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 2:41 AM, Merle Lester wrote:

> **
>
>
>
>  so what is american...?...merle
>
>
> Chan is Chinese interpretation zen is Japanese. Tibean is Dali Lama?
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 2:30 AM, Merle Lester wrote:
>
> **
>
>
>
>  Bill...still confused...so zen is  chan...?..if you wish to experience
> buddha nature directly you do zen?... no buddhism involved...
>  so why are you desiring to experience buddha nature and then claim it has
> nothing to do with buddhism?...  merle
>
> Merle,
>
> Well, that all depends on what you mean by 'zen'.
>
> I've defined what I mean by zen (lower-case 'z') many, many times on this
> forum and elsewhere. A short version of that definition is: a set of
> teachings and techniques that first lead you to directly experience reality
> (a.k.a. Buddha Nature); and then helps you integrate that experience into
> every facet of your daily life.
>
> These techniques (zazen, chanting, bowing, koans, etc...)do not have to be
> associated with Buddhism. If they are then that is Zen Buddhism, and in
> that case the teachings are encased in the language of Buddhism. This is
> fact is how I was introduced to zen, via a Japanese form of Zen Buddhism.
>
> To sum up, I believe zen is not in any way dependent upon Buddhism,
> Buddhist teachings, dogmas, doctrine or practices.
>
> ...Bill!
>
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Â
> > Â from what i gather you would not have zen if you did not have
> buddhism..correct me if i am incorrect..merle
> > Â
> > Merle,
> >
> > Yes. IMO zen is not an exclusive subset or sect of Buddhism.
> >
> > Buddhism is a religion has does have many, many lists of principles,
> dogma, doctrines, rituals, precepts, vows, etc... All these IMO have
> nothing directly to do with zen, but in the case of Zen Buddhism are like
> an add-on covering and adornments that are wrapped around zen. In the case
> of most other Buddhist sects zen does not play any part, and is in fact
> seen as a cult.
> >
> > This is why I draw a distinction between zen with a lower-case 'z' which
> is a common noun and refers only the zen in general, and Zen with an
> upper-case 'Z' which is a proper noun referring to Zen Buddhism.
> >
> > This again is IMO and is not the traditional view of Zen Buddhism...by
> those that identify themselves as Zen Buddhists.
> >
> > ...Bill!
> >
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >  hallo bill...so tell me why oh why is the classification referred
> to as zen buddhism?... can you have zen without buddhist principles?...
> merle
> > > ÂÂ
> > > Merle,
> > >
> > > As you should very well know by now I don't identify with being a
> Buddhist.
> > >
> > > I do however practice zen and have for over 45 years; but just because
> I practice zen doesn't mean I don't feel pain, or have other delusions.
> What it means is that (most of the time) I am not attached to those
> delusions.
> > >
> > > ...Bill!
> > >
> > > ...Bill!
> > >
> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  bill...acceptance is the key...what sort odf a zen buddhist
> are you?..merle
> > > > ÂÂÂ
> > > > Merle,
> > > >
> > > > Yes! Why me? Why not someone else? Someone I don't like? Someone who
> doesn't look like me or is the same color as me or speaks the same language
> as I do. Someone ELSE!
> > > >
> > > > ...Bill!
> > > >
> > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester 
> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ÃÆ'‚ bill...not why me...that's plain silly..why
> not you?...merle
> > > > > ÃÆ'‚ÂÂÂ
> > > > > Merle,
> > > > >
> > > > > I have been in pain before. When I am in pain I don't think of
> pain as a judgmental delusion, I think of it as pain and judge it to be
> bad; and maybe even think "Poor, poor me! Why do I have to suffer all this
> pain? What did I do to deserve this? I just want it to go away!".
> > > > >
> > > > > ...Bill!
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester 
> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ have you been in pain
> bill..and thought it was judgemental delusion?...merle
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂÂ
> > > > > > Merle,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I don't know how you got from what I said earlier to your post
> below.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The experience of feeling/touch is real. That experience is
> Buddha Nature. The classification of it as 'pain' is the judgmental
> delusion. Just as the experience of sight is real. The classification of it
> as 'a red bird' is the delusion.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ...Bill!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester 
> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> 'ÃÆ'¢â‚