[Zen] Samadhi
You will fall into a state of complete unknowing, perplexity, and questioning. Those who have done much study will even come to forget what they had previously learned. But this is not a final or lasting state. When you have reached this point you must still proceed further to the state where although you have ears, you do not know how to hear; although you have eyes, you do not know how to see; and although you have a tongue, you do not know how to speak. To reach the place where mountains are not mountains and rivers are not rivers may entail several years of hard practice. Therefore, it is necessary to cast aside all other concerns and train yourself to focus the entirety of your attention on the tasteless hwadu* alone. ~ Kusan Sunim (1909-1983) *'hwadu is roughly the Korean Zen equivelent of the Japanese Zen 'koan'. ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
JM, Your advice is valuable that you need to be in good physical condition in order to meditate efficiently. You are an expert in cultvating chi. That is a very good practice. It is also why you are resistant to the stones I throw at you. LOL. However, if you maintain samadhi every moment, you will be hit by a car, when you cross the street. The correct term should be to maintain mindfulness. I have not cracked jokes with you for a while. Anthony From: 覺妙精明 （JMJM） chan.j...@gmail.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, 22 August 2012, 6:58 Subject: [Zen] Samadhi Dear Merle and Bill (not Bill!), Thank you for your interest in taking a peek at our meditative technique. We practice first to reach tiptop physical condition. Only then could we integrate our body, mind and spirit. Thus a dedicated chi cultivation is the necessary first step as well as its foundation. Some call this state samadhi, though it is only a name, we need to understand however it differs from a state when we are physically exhausted as in a long retreat. In order for us to maintain a state of samadhi in every moment, we must be in our best physical condition, not when we are exhausted. Besides, it is explicitly so stated in traditional Chinese meditation. Heightened state of awareness requires the support of heightened state of chi. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Treasures_(traditional_Chinese_medicine) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Treasures_%28traditional_Chinese_medicine%29 Bon Voyage, JM
[Zen] Samadhi
Dear Merle and Bill (not Bill!), Thank you for your interest in taking a peek at our meditative technique. We practice first to reach tiptop physical condition. Only then could we integrate our body, mind and spirit. Thus a dedicated chi cultivation is the necessary first step as well as its foundation. Some call this state samadhi, though it is only a name, we need to understand however it differs from a state when we are physically exhausted as in a long retreat. In order for us to maintain a state of samadhi in every moment, we must be in our best physical condition, not when we are exhausted. Besides, it is explicitly so stated in traditional Chinese meditation. Heightened state of awareness requires the support of heightened state of chi. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Treasures_(traditional_Chinese_medicine) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Treasures_%28traditional_Chinese_medicine%29 Bon Voyage, JM Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
Kris, Hmm, ouch. Well, no. I wonder what the People from Shinola would say about that, Kris. ;-( Original mind is just original mind. Our original human inheritance. No connection to the many virgin births of wonderful mythological traditions, including the johnny-come-lately Christian tradition (not its fault being recent). See THE GOLDEN BOUGH, by the Scotsman Sir James Frazer, for more. And my old teach', Joe Campbell. Original mind is not a metaphor. That's what makes it wonderful -- instead of being just merely-wonderful. Other traditions do not use it as a model for virgin births. No, no, not at all. I think that confused idea of yours had a non-virgin conception, dunno about the birth. ;-) Hail! I say: Hail! --Joe Kristopher Grey kris@... wrote: Virgin birth a metaphor for what in Zen is often called Original mind/Buddha nature, without beginning or end - without cause and effect. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
back to the original mind. merle On 8/5/2012 4:30 PM, mike brown wrote: ancient legends of virgin births are plentiful. Virgin birth a metaphor for what in Zen is often called Original mind/Buddha nature, without beginning or end - without cause and effect. Resurrection, a metaphor for awakening to/realizing this. (and to understand the symbolism of the cross, the cave, the death and rebirth - all purposefully borrowed and used - takes some understanding of far more ancient practices/traditions/stories that these point to. A retelling yes, as each culture does). All the fanciful historical mystical wrappings my delude the masses caught in their own thinking, but also offer clues, and cannot hide what is in plain sight. KG
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
On 8/5/2012 4:30 PM, mike brown wrote: ancient legends of virgin births are plentiful. Virgin birth a metaphor for what in Zen is often called Original mind/Buddha nature, without beginning or end - without cause and effect. Resurrection, a metaphor for awakening to/realizing this. (and to understand the symbolism of the cross, the cave, the death and rebirth - all purposefully borrowed and used - takes some understanding of far more ancient practices/traditions/stories that these point to. A retelling yes, as each culture does). All the fanciful historical mystical wrappings my delude the masses caught in their own thinking, but also offer clues, and cannot hide what is in plain sight. KG Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
Kris, It's been a while since I read Campbell's The Power of Myth and The Hero with a Thousand Faces, but what you said in your last post about Jesus sounds just like another story about archetypes and is, like you said, full of metaphors. Such stories are plentiful. That's not to demean them at all (The Power of Myth), but the story of Buddha is all I need, at least at this point. Guatama Siddharta might never have existed, it doesn't matter, but his story is a closer metaphor for the journey this miserable sinner is on. Thanks for your posts tho, I'm learning a lot more about the other side of Christianity compared to what is usually on offer. Mike From: Kristopher Grey k...@kgrey.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, 6 August 2012, 16:59 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi On 8/5/2012 4:30 PM, mike brown wrote: ancient legends of virgin births are plentiful. Virgin birth a metaphor for what in Zen is often called Original mind/Buddha nature, without beginning or end - without cause and effect. Resurrection, a metaphor for awakening to/realizing this. (and to understand the symbolism of the cross, the cave, the death and rebirth - all purposefully borrowed and used - takes some understanding of far more ancient practices/traditions/stories that these point to. A retelling yes, as each culture does). All the fanciful historical mystical wrappings my delude the masses caught in their own thinking, but also offer clues, and cannot hide what is in plain sight. KG
Re: Re; [Zen] Samadhi
On 8/4/2012 7:24 PM, Joe wrote: Some religions preach killing of infidels... When Jihad is believed to be an external path, non-believers die. When Jihad is believed to be an internalized path, such beliefs die. When path is Allah, Jihad is no longer a belief. KG Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
No more, no less. No need to rationalize any of this. However is BUT another expression of I Since you approached it a you did, surely you see I am not seeking to serve as evangelist or apologist for a religion I do not follow. This itself is a koan of sorts, but it presents no question and needs no answer. As you say, you have met. Even coming face to face, such recognition is always limited to the superficial, to appearances, to understandings. Don't settle for some position and become stuck there. Don't know, and cling to the corpse of old ideas. Don't take this as advice. I am not offering you anything. KG On 8/4/2012 7:35 PM, mike brown wrote: Kris, Buddha and Christ are not names - they are recognition of realization. I've being sitting and have used your statement above as a koan. rather than try to rationalise it, and we have a meeting of mind. Thanks for pointing it out to me. However (there's always a however), with that being so, that makes it even less of a 'requirement' for me to become acquainted with Christianity or the Bible. We've already met. Mike
Re: Re; [Zen] Samadhi
Sufis existed long before Islam - and have been wise enough to get Islam to forget, ignore, or otherwise rationalize this. Truth makes no enemies, claims of same do. They were careful not to make the same mistakes their Gnostic Christian cousins had centuries before. Wise indeed. Great sense of humor too. A spirit not unknown to Zen - when some of the more eccentric figures are considered... KG On 8/4/2012 7:45 PM, Merle Lester wrote: Yes joe spot on...sufismmerle Edgar, Some religions preach killing of infidels, those not yet converted to the ways of the self-righteous and self-forgiving Camel-thief. He wrote himself a hall-pass in his Koran (people raised in American public [government...] schools will understand the reference). May all our religious codes, and other codes, keep us free from such people and such dastardly ways. Imagine: their Book says these things, and they read it and go ahead and trust it, and enact the actions. The chapter The Spoils says enough for me. There's no way to hide the intent by re-translation(s), nor commentary. Danger, Will Robinson! Reboot, pls. Yet, I trust the Sufis with my life. Mysticism separates the grain from the mould-infected chaff. Sufism is a tradition of transmission, like our Zen, not dependent on words or letters. Salam malecum. --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Anyone who gets their morals from some religion has none of their own...
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
Mike: I don't understand the reference here. Is this about the virgin birth? Interesting fact is that in the Bible it is only in one of the books is it mentioned and I think that it was Luke. Regardless, the writer was Greek and Gods impregnating human females was a very common part of the Greek mythos. Bill Find what makes your heart sing…and do it! From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, August 3, 2012 8:36:16 PM Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi Bill!, I'd rather be possessed by 'me' than a spook in a white sheet who did it with a married man's wife (Where do Christians get there morals from again?..). Mike Ps Oops! That wasn't a dig at you, Merle :) From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 4 August 2012, 2:31 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi Mike, Actually that mean YOU have bee DIS-POSSESSED...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@... wrote: Bill! Oh my god! Does that mean I'm possessed?? Mike 666 From: Bill! BillSmart@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 4 August 2012, 1:57 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi  Mike, To be 'filled' with the Holy Spirit means there is no longer any room for your 'self'. Then there is no longer any self/other dualism. There is only Buddha Nature. Just THIS! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@ wrote: Bill! The (Holy) ghost in the machine, perhaps? I dunno about your description, tho. Isn't to be filled a bit different from 'empty'? Plus, when I hear those happy clappy born-agains say they're filled with the Holy Spirit, they seem quite a different animal from a Zen practioner sitting in shikantaza. Mike From: Bill! BillSmart@ To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 11:24 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi  Mike, I would describe it as something similar to being filled with the Holy Spirit and giving yourself over COMPLETELY to God's will. Bill! (not Joe or Bill) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@ wrote: Joe, How would you describe shikantaza to someone from a religion such as Christianity? Mike From: Joe desert_woodworker@ To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 3:24 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi  Shikantaza is just keeping empty. In the Zen sect. I'll say no more! --Joe ED seacrofter001@ wrote: Mike, Is shikantaza insight meditation, absorption meditation or both?
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
Bill, Yes, it was a reference to the Ho;y Ghost and the virgin birth )not to be taken literally, surely?). And yes, ancient legends of virgin births are plentiful. Mike From: William Rintala brint...@bellsouth.net To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 5 August 2012, 20:35 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi Mike: I don't understand the reference here. Is this about the virgin birth? Interesting fact is that in the Bible it is only in one of the books is it mentioned and I think that it was Luke. Regardless, the writer was Greek and Gods impregnating human females was a very common part of the Greek mythos. Bill Find what makes your heart sing…and do it! From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, August 3, 2012 8:36:16 PM Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi Bill!, I'd rather be possessed by 'me' than a spook in a white sheet who did it with a married man's wife (Where do Christians get there morals from again?..). Mike Ps Oops! That wasn't a dig at you, Merle :) From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 4 August 2012, 2:31 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi Mike, Actually that mean YOU have bee DIS-POSSESSED...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@... wrote: Bill! Oh my god! Does that mean I'm possessed?? Mike 666 From: Bill! BillSmart@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 4 August 2012, 1:57 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi  Mike, To be 'filled' with the Holy Spirit means there is no longer any room for your 'self'. Then there is no longer any self/other dualism. There is only Buddha Nature. Just THIS! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@ wrote: Bill! The (Holy) ghost in the machine, perhaps? I dunno about your description, tho. Isn't to be filled a bit different from 'empty'? Plus, when I hear those happy clappy born-agains say they're filled with the Holy Spirit, they seem quite a different animal from a Zen practioner sitting in shikantaza. Mike From: Bill! BillSmart@ To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 11:24 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi  Mike, I would describe it as something similar to being filled with the Holy Spirit and giving yourself over COMPLETELY to God's will. Bill! (not Joe or Bill) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@ wrote: Joe, How would you describe shikantaza to someone from a religion such as Christianity? Mike From: Joe desert_woodworker@ To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 3:24 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi  Shikantaza is just keeping empty. In the Zen sect. I'll say no more! --Joe ED seacrofter001@ wrote: Mike, Is shikantaza insight meditation, absorption meditation or both?
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
Kris, et al., ...and ALL, I've quoted Ch'an Master Sheng Yen's death gatha here before; he passed in Feb. 2009. This year, we saw the completion of the three-year traditional period of mourning, on Feb. 3. His poem will forever continue to portray a great practitioner's mentality, wisdom, and heart: Busy with nothing, growing old. Within emptiness, weeping, laughing. Intrinsically there is no 'I'. Life and death, thus cast aside. -- Joe (Shih-fu's disciple #13 in USA) Kristopher Grey kris@... wrote: On 8/4/2012 2:15 AM, Bill! wrote: JMJM, You're correct. No joy or sadness. Just release. The release of the illusion, the embrace of nothing. Laughter inseparable from tears. The obvious impossibility of this, infinite bliss. KG Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: Re; [Zen] Samadhi
Kris, Bull-roar. And may it always be so. Die is not up to mere mortals. Unless they are Suicidal. And then it is ill-advised. Martyrs may jump off any cliff, however, but be sure to take no others with. Except the cliff. To the bottom. And beyond. If there be any beyond. I suspect the beyond is the preceding: one must start ALL over again. Poetic license, some say. I call it Poetic Justice. No rhyme nor reason, though; don't look too closely. I'm not friendly to maniacs. Jihad in oneself is one thing, but killing outside is not what even the Camel-thief prophet could support while alive, I hope. I am being generous. But that's what counts, if it is true. Yes? He would not kill? No: he would kill. See the Book. Icch. Wild idea. I'd like to arm-wrestle with that Mohammed, one day. Kick his butt-i-cuss. For fun! Show him that camel-thieving is not everything. He'd get it, before I was done with him. We'd have his sworn conversion statement to Ch'an Buddhism. Or Quakerism. He'd give up camel pelts. World history could have been different if I had been a *lot* older! Still, it's not too soon. --J. Kristopher Grey kris@... wrote: On 8/4/2012 7:24 PM, Joe wrote: Some religions preach killing of infidels... When Jihad is believed to be an external path, non-believers die. When Jihad is believed to be an internalized path, such beliefs die. When path is Allah, Jihad is no longer a belief. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
JMJM, You're correct. No joy or sadness. Just release. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, 覺å¦ç²¾æ ï¼JMJMï¼ chan.jmjm@... wrote: Hi Bill, Thank you for your sharing. Many of our practitioners experience this, a kind with no joy no sadness. We labeled it as home bound or found home. :-) jm On 8/3/2012 6:11 PM, Bill! wrote: Mike and JMJM, I can tell you when I first experienced Buddha Nature (kensho) while working on the koan Mu I broke down and cried. I was sitting in the zendo with many others and started sobbing uncontrollably. Several of the attendant immediately assisted me and took me to another room where I could gather myself; and then I was quickly ushered into dokusan. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@ wrote: JMJM, I could be wrong, but if your colleague broke down and cried after being filled with the Holy Ghost, then I think at some point his sitting stopped being shikantaza, if indeed it ever was. My understanding is that there would be equanimity, awarenessà and just simple observation of what was happening if it was shikantaza. I'm sure one of our more experienced members will clarify the matter for us. Mike From: 覺å¦â¢Ã§Â²Â¾Ã¦ËŽ ï¼ËJMJMï¼Ⱐchan.jmjm@ To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com Cc: Bill! BillSmart@ Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 16:53 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi à Yes,à That's exactly how one of our practitioner, John Ip, described his experience.à John is a devoted Christian for over 20 years.à Last month, he shared, instead of words words and words, after enhancing his physical state, the Holy Ghost comes into him and he broke down and cried. He practices in our Family Meditation program in our community library for about 5 months. Now he sits longer and longer everyday. I told him, Holy Spirit is called Dharmakaya in Buddhism.à Same energy, just different names.à And that is just the beginning. Many of our practitioners witnesses an explosion from their heart chakra.à There were no fear. Our Teacher said, when there is white light from the Heart Chakra, then you have witness Buddha Nature.à My sister-in-law witnesses white light every time she sits.à She knows phenomena of previous generations of other practitioners and helps them to resolve many karma. As to Mike's statement that he can recognize but can not express is a perfect example that when we surpass our skandhas, or regular senses, we reach a wider state of awareness, far beyond we can describe by words, logic.à It is direct, instant and right. Some discussions in this forum mixing up the description for the two states, one is limited and the other is wider, and initiated some discussion.à Depending on the scope and sensitivity of our awareness, the languages and dictionary are different.à Only when we abandon our dictionary; experience; then could we witness the state of being of others.à Discussion through words are very dangerous.à Thus Chan is without words and transmitted in addition to teaching. When someday, whatever people say, we say ah, yes. without analyzing, debating, defense, then we are truly in each moment and live in sync with the wisdom and life force of the universe. Good Day and Thank you for reading this. _/\_ JM On 8/3/2012 3:24 AM, Bill! wrote: à Mike, I would describe it as something similar to being filled with the Holy Spirit and giving yourself over COMPLETELY to God's will. Bill! (not Joe or Bill) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@ wrote: Joe, How would you describe shikantaza to someone from a religion such as Christianity? Mike From: Joe desert_woodworker@ To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 3:24 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi Ãâà Shikantaza is just keeping empty. In the Zen sect. I'll say no more! --Joe ED seacrofter001@ wrote: Mike, Is shikantaza insight meditation, absorption meditation or both? Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 4 August 2012 8:12 AM Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi mike..meaning what?...do not be so quick to judge..there are christians and christians...just as there are buddhists and buddhists.. . not all folk who meditate and sit cross legged for hours waiting for the light they too are not the perfecto..you are so desiring to be lighten up. .accept that christianity to may have something to offer if you take the time to examine merle MEL: That is quite true..there are those who are holy, and those who are holy..and irrespective of whatever religious inclination they follow. Christianity and its 2 other cousins from the Oriental Near East have so much to offer, but only through study of their respective scriptures. Each of these Big 3 from the above mentioned region have so much to offer if time is taken to examine as such..but how much time does one have? The Buddhist writings themselves are so vast that it would take more than a lifetime to cover them As I was sitting typing here, a young and blind-drunk Pacific Islander kid of no more than 15 or 16 (compared to my 50) ranted on about how much of a 'holy man' as such he was. So it's quite true. The kid looks like a church-going type who would never dream of telling his mother where to go(SWEARING, in other words), but he looked messed up. I've seen him in his high school uniform with the rest of the other regular street gangs in the mid-afternoon peak hour after school, and that to me tells that he can read (including scripture) instead of just relying on the drivel from the pulpit. Without that full scripture knowledge and acceptance of both OLD and NEW, how can one know what this god they speak of wants? I can continue being a Quaker and attend the Sunday morning meetings, and then be with the Sangha at the local Soto Zen temple in the evenings. Which way should one go? One has to eventually make the choiceand that's something the Big 3 above makes pretty clear from the beginning. I'll be truthfull here and say there is beauty in being a Quaker who lives life according to scripture, but there's much less stress and indeed more peace in the world of Zen...even without reading the Buddhist writings. I've read up to First Book of Kings, but I've only read ZEN MIND BEGINNERS MIND (quite a few times) from the Buddhist side. Sometimes, less is indeed better -- MIKE: Merle, Guess I met too many Christians. --- MEL: And this is just me personally, but the problem with a lot of evangelistics from all the Big 3 is that they seem to be more interested in filling not only the house and yards at both sides, but the whole street and even neighborhood. First of all, one must clean one's own house before filling it with anything, and sometimes, less is better. A clear spaceBuddha(or Tao if you prefer)... From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 4 August 2012, 0:58 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi godfathers, mike..you live in a world where there are millions of christians and your not the least interested or curious to find out the nitty gritty of it all... why?..merle MEL: The one thing that so many Christians out there forget is to study scripture, and that means both OLD, and NEW TESTAMENTS(and for the keen, they may add APOCRYPHA if they wish). My understanding of that 'nitty gritty' as such is the reading material itself. Without the study, one is basically just one of the mindless herd
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 4 August 2012 8:57 AM Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi Mike, To be 'filled' with the Holy Spirit means there is no longer any room for your 'self'. Then there is no longer any self/other dualism. There is only Buddha Nature. Just THIS! ...Bill! MEL:.Buddha(or Tao)
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 4 August 2012 8:59 AM Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi Bill! Oh my god! Does that mean I'm possessed?? Mike 666 MEL: By many women. You're so lustfully evil...repent my good man...REPENT!!!
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 4 August 2012 9:28 AM Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi Bill!, The nearest Christian meditation to shikantaza I can think of is the one Chris mentioned he went to. Wasn't it the Quaker sect? Mike MEL: The Quakers sit in silence for the whole meeting, awaiting something to come to them from above, be it God himself or a message from him, or something inspired from his teachings, directly or indirectly. During this entire period, everyone is welcome to stand up and break the silence to share something with everyone that came to them by way of something inspired from aboveagain, directly, or indirectly. Such talk will not be questioned or debated, but accepted with grace and in silence, and the silence of the meeting then resumes. For those who have access to it and are interested in the Quakers, please get a hold of the 50s Hollywood classic FRIENDLY PERSUASION I cannot speak of, or for all Quakers, but the ones here DownUnder(Australia) in this lovely city of Melbourne are not what Australians lovingly refer to as...bible-bashers..if such a term makes sense to my American neighbors up north. They will keep to themselves, but will only speak of all things religious (including scripture) if asked by interested individuals. MATTHEW 28:19-20 is not carried into extremes, as I had seen with BornAgains
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
So sure you are about what equanimity is, yet such surety ensures it cannot be realized. Do not mistake detachment for non-attachment. Attachment and detachment (not attachment) are the same error of separation. Can a Buddha not laugh and cry? As for Jesus, he is dead. So is Gautama. Still, they point the way. Buddha and Christ are not names - they are recognition of realization. In shikantaza, whatever appears is just as free to pass. If you deny what arises, you are not just sitting. If you claim this is or is not shikantaza, you are not just sitting. KG On 8/3/2012 5:14 PM, mike brown wrote: Kris, I know absolutely sweet f.a about Christianity, never mind Christian forms of meditation, so I'll accept what you say about grace, being open and 'just this'. I would still, however, argue that being overwhelmed emotionally at feeling like you are being filled with the Holy Ghost, or whatever else, is not observing with equanimity and is therefore not shikantaza. If I sit down to practice shikantaza and I have a feeling that my dead grandmother is with me, is it still shikantaza if I feel overwhelmed and start bawling my eyes out? Or does Jesus get a free pass? Mike **
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
On 8/3/2012 8:43 PM, mike brown wrote: I don't see it. See the wisdom in that admission, and do not limit it to current discussion. Assuming this is about how anyone sees it - that is the only error. Delsuion. Original Sin, call it what you will. KG Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
I was alone, and then not. I went for a long walk, and have not come back. The scenery changes, this does not. KG On 8/3/2012 9:11 PM, Bill! wrote: Mike and JMJM, I can tell you when I first experienced Buddha Nature (kensho) while working on the koan Mu I broke down and cried. I was sitting in the zendo with many others and started sobbing uncontrollably. Several of the attendant immediately assisted me and took me to another room where I could gather myself; and then I was quickly ushered into dokusan. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@... wrote: JMJM, I could be wrong, but if your colleague broke down and cried after being filled with the Holy Ghost, then I think at some point his sitting stopped being shikantaza, if indeed it ever was. My understanding is that there would be equanimity, awareness and just simple observation of what was happening if it was shikantaza. I'm sure one of our more experienced members will clarify the matter for us. Mike From: 覺å¦^(TM)ç²¾æ~Z( ï¼^JMJMï¼0/00 chan.jmjm@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com Cc: Bill! BillSmart@... Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 16:53 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi  Yes, That's exactly how one of our practitioner, John Ip, described his experience. John is a devoted Christian for over 20 years. Last month, he shared, instead of words words and words, after enhancing his physical state, the Holy Ghost comes into him and he broke down and cried. He practices in our Family Meditation program in our community library for about 5 months. Now he sits longer and longer everyday. I told him, Holy Spirit is called Dharmakaya in Buddhism. Same energy, just different names. And that is just the beginning. Many of our practitioners witnesses an explosion from their heart chakra. There were no fear. Our Teacher said, when there is white light from the Heart Chakra, then you have witness Buddha Nature. My sister-in-law witnesses white light every time she sits. She knows phenomena of previous generations of other practitioners and helps them to resolve many karma. As to Mike's statement that he can recognize but can not express is a perfect example that when we surpass our skandhas, or regular senses, we reach a wider state of awareness, far beyond we can describe by words, logic. It is direct, instant and right. Some discussions in this forum mixing up the description for the two states, one is limited and the other is wider, and initiated some discussion. Depending on the scope and sensitivity of our awareness, the languages and dictionary are different. Only when we abandon our dictionary; experience; then could we witness the state of being of others. Discussion through words are very dangerous. Thus Chan is without words and transmitted in addition to teaching. When someday, whatever people say, we say ah, yes. without analyzing, debating, defense, then we are truly in each moment and live in sync with the wisdom and life force of the universe. Good Day and Thank you for reading this. _/\_ JM On 8/3/2012 3:24 AM, Bill! wrote:  Mike, I would describe it as something similar to being filled with the Holy Spirit and giving yourself over COMPLETELY to God's will. Bill! (not Joe or Bill) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@ wrote: Joe, How would you describe shikantaza to someone from a religion such as Christianity? Mike From: Joe desert_woodworker@ To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 3:24 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi Ã, Shikantaza is just keeping empty. In the Zen sect. I'll say no more! --Joe ED seacrofter001@ wrote: Mike, Is shikantaza insight meditation, absorption meditation or both?
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
Sometimes, a real Kyosaku is necessary. :-) On 8/4/2012 8:49 AM, Kristopher Grey wrote: On 8/3/2012 5:15 PM, mike brown wrote: Sometimes we have to categorise Who says so? Categorization happens, we are not bound to it. Not a problem otherwise. KG
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
Neat reply! On 8/3/2012 9:57 PM, Joe wrote: Mike, Thanks for the challenge. ;-) Neat question! Well, Father, shikantaza is a practice. In a way, it is a bit more like a result, though; do you know what I mean, Father? It's like when you go on your Jesuit retreats with your brethren, and, for a week or more, you contemplate The Sacred Heart of Jesus. Well, Father... do you know how, by, say, the 4th or 5th day, how you feel rather unable to grasp or practice the method anymore? And your Spiritual Director reminds you in Interview just to keep up the practice, no matter WHAT, but, nonetheless you are unable to grasp the usual method, and feel instead as if you are empty and comfortable, but not at all taking it easy? As if you truly have a Result?, that is, a state of mind that can maintain itself and carry you through the morning's or evening's contemplation? Well, that's not Shikantaza. That's something basically Human, which Shikantaza is also able to bring us to. Shikantaza, Father, is stopping the mind, but not by using force; and the second-half is allowing insight to come in while the mind is stopped. But, Father, this is a PRACTICE, and although I say it is in fact a bit like a RESULT, I mean that it is nonetheless a practice, and not a final state nor something you can abandon after a day or a decade. Nor can you begin your practice here! So we allow the mind to stop, simply by not following anything that arises. We give NO energy to anything. This is a lazy-man's method!, for sure; but only a very disciplined lazy man or Nun can do it. Just give no energy to anything. Let it all trail-off, like strains of Gregorian chants in the echo-y cathedral after the monks hit the final note. Just let it go. Then, watch, just watch. If anything arises, just let it go. Let it go. Keep letting it go. Give no energy, and no follow-up. Eventually, Father, samadhi comes on. Father, do you know what samadhi is? --Joe mike brown uerusuboyo@... wrote: Joe, How would you describe shikantaza to someone from a religion such as Christianity? Mike
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
Sometimes, a real Kyosaku is necessary. :-) Going by your own argument.. why? Surely a rolled up newspaper would do? Or a piece of string? Why categorise anything if you're so opposed to it? Why indeed go to a Chan sitting - surely a KKK meeting would be the same? Categorising might not be an ultimate truth, but it sure helps me when I go shopping for groceries. Sheesh! Mike From: 覺妙精明 （JMJM） chan.j...@gmail.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 4 August 2012, 17:34 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi Sometimes, a real Kyosaku is necessary. :-) On 8/4/2012 8:49 AM, Kristopher Grey wrote: On 8/3/2012 5:15 PM, mike brown wrote: Sometimes we have to categorise Who says so? Categorization happens, we are not bound to it. Not a problem otherwise. KG
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
On 8/3/2012 11:00 PM, Bill! wrote: The problem with Christianity (IMO) is that most Christians do take the Bible and it's account of Jesus' teachings absolutely literally. God as Emperor, in the Roman tradition. A self-realized populace is unruly. Hidden in plain sight - with some help at Nicea. KG Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
Hi Mike, Here comes the Kyosaku I hope your don't mind. :-) You see the tree connecting to your mind. You miss the forest. Please read the entire post addressing more than you, and not just some phrases relating only to your post. Buddha or Chan is always the WE and the WHOLE. We don't have to be right or wrong. Defend or offend. Whether this is Shikantaza or not, is not important. Though Shikantaza is only a portion of Chan, it also serves its purposes and helps. Chan is in Shikantaza. But Shikantaza is not Chan. Chan is just called Chan, but not Chan. Chan is ONE and ALL and it is not in logic or words or practice. _/\_ JMJM On 8/4/2012 9:44 AM, mike brown wrote: Sometimes, a real Kyosaku is necessary. :-) Going by your own argument.. why? Surely a rolled up newspaper would do? Or a piece of string? Why categorise anything if you're so opposed to it? Why indeed go to a Chan sitting - surely a KKK meeting would be the same? Categorising might not be an ultimate truth, but it sure helps me when I go shopping for groceries. Sheesh! Mike *From:* 覺妙精明 （JMJM） chan.j...@gmail.com *To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Saturday, 4 August 2012, 17:34 *Subject:* Re: [Zen] Samadhi Sometimes, a real Kyosaku is necessary. :-) On 8/4/2012 8:49 AM, Kristopher Grey wrote: On 8/3/2012 5:15 PM, mike brown wrote: Sometimes we have to categorise Who says so? Categorization happens, we are not bound to it. Not a problem otherwise. KG
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
JMJM, Ok. Mike From: 覺妙精明 （JMJM） chan.j...@gmail.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 4 August 2012, 17:57 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi Hi Mike, Here comes the Kyosaku I hope your don't mind. :-) You see the tree connecting to your mind. You miss the forest. Please read the entire post addressing more than you, and not just some phrases relating only to your post. Buddha or Chan is always the WE and the WHOLE. We don't have to be right or wrong. Defend or offend. Whether this is Shikantaza or not, is not important. Though Shikantaza is only a portion of Chan, it also serves its purposes and helps. Chan is in Shikantaza. But Shikantaza is not Chan. Chan is just called Chan, but not Chan. Chan is ONE and ALL and it is not in logic or words or practice. _/\_ JMJM On 8/4/2012 9:44 AM, mike brown wrote: Sometimes, a real Kyosaku is necessary. :-) Going by your own argument.. why? Surely a rolled up newspaper would do? Or a piece of string? Why categorise anything if you're so opposed to it? Why indeed go to a Chan sitting - surely a KKK meeting would be the same? Categorising might not be an ultimate truth, but it sure helps me when I go shopping for groceries. Sheesh! Mike From: 覺妙精明 （JMJM） chan.j...@gmail.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 4 August 2012, 17:34 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi Sometimes, a real Kyosaku is necessary. :-) On 8/4/2012 8:49 AM, Kristopher Grey wrote: On 8/3/2012 5:15 PM, mike brown wrote: Sometimes we have to categorise Who says so? Categorization happens, we are not bound to it. Not a problem otherwise. KG
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
Mike, Thank you. A bow to you. JMJM On 8/4/2012 9:59 AM, mike brown wrote: JMJM, Ok. Mike *From:* 覺妙精明 （JMJM） chan.j...@gmail.com *To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Saturday, 4 August 2012, 17:57 *Subject:* Re: [Zen] Samadhi Hi Mike, Here comes the Kyosaku I hope your don't mind. :-) You see the tree connecting to your mind. You miss the forest. Please read the entire post addressing more than you, and not just some phrases relating only to your post. Buddha or Chan is always the WE and the WHOLE. We don't have to be right or wrong. Defend or offend. Whether this is Shikantaza or not, is not important. Though Shikantaza is only a portion of Chan, it also serves its purposes and helps. Chan is in Shikantaza. But Shikantaza is not Chan. Chan is just called Chan, but not Chan. Chan is ONE and ALL and it is not in logic or words or practice. _/\_ JMJM On 8/4/2012 9:44 AM, mike brown wrote: Sometimes, a real Kyosaku is necessary. :-) Going by your own argument.. why? Surely a rolled up newspaper would do? Or a piece of string? Why categorise anything if you're so opposed to it? Why indeed go to a Chan sitting - surely a KKK meeting would be the same? Categorising might not be an ultimate truth, but it sure helps me when I go shopping for groceries. Sheesh! Mike *From:* 覺妙精明 （JMJM） chan.j...@gmail.com mailto:chan.j...@gmail.com *To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Saturday, 4 August 2012, 17:34 *Subject:* Re: [Zen] Samadhi Sometimes, a real Kyosaku is necessary. :-) On 8/4/2012 8:49 AM, Kristopher Grey wrote: On 8/3/2012 5:15 PM, mike brown wrote: Sometimes we have to categorise Who says so? Categorization happens, we are not bound to it. Not a problem otherwise. KG
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
I concur! I second the compassionate reflection, JMJM. I believe in the right tool for the job. --Joe-the-Stick-maker 覺å¦ç²¾æ ï¼JMJMï¼ chan.jmjm@... wrote: Sometimes, a real Kyosaku is necessary. :-) Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
Hi Joe, Notice the I in I concur, the I in I second. The I in I believe. We are all products of the causations. The I is just a result driven by ALL. ALL is. _/\_ JMJM On 8/4/2012 10:14 AM, Joe wrote: I concur! I second the compassionate reflection, JMJM. I believe in the right tool for the job. --Joe-the-Stick-maker 覺妙精明 （JMJM） chan.jmjm@... wrote: Sometimes, a real Kyosaku is necessary. :-)
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
Brother JMJM, You said it! They were for your noticing. You hit right upon it. I put those I-beams out there baldly for all to see. I have nothing to hide, neither about my point of view, nor about the small illusory being making the utterance. I quit that kind of hiding long ago. If you see the fallacy in my I, it is just right. My I is not a lie, but just a conventionalization, so we can talk together. There, now; I've said we, too. I am a complete dualist in this moment. Except for what is my foundation: the I-beams are in the air, true; and the foundation is strong in the footing of this great edifice of Nature. This guy is all over the place. Yet not really in any place. Better please let me have that Kyosaku now before I start making profound sense. On the shoulders, please, and a few flat stokes on each side of the spine. Ahh-h. Bless you. Most compassionate. Practice well, with gratitude. Namo, --Joe 覺å¦ç²¾æ ï¼JMJMï¼ chan.jmjm@... wrote: Hi Joe, Notice the I in I concur, the I in I second. The I in I believe. We are all products of the causations. The I is just a result driven by ALL. ALL is. _/\_ JMJM Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
My I is not a lie, but just a conventionalization, so we can talk together. Good luck! From: Joe desert_woodwor...@yahoo.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 4 August 2012, 18:51 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi Brother JMJM, You said it! They were for your noticing. You hit right upon it. I put those I-beams out there baldly for all to see. I have nothing to hide, neither about my point of view, nor about the small illusory being making the utterance. I quit that kind of hiding long ago. If you see the fallacy in my I, it is just right. My I is not a lie, but just a conventionalization, so we can talk together. There, now; I've said we, too. I am a complete dualist in this moment. Except for what is my foundation: the I-beams are in the air, true; and the foundation is strong in the footing of this great edifice of Nature. This guy is all over the place. Yet not really in any place. Better please let me have that Kyosaku now before I start making profound sense. On the shoulders, please, and a few flat stokes on each side of the spine. Ahh-h. Bless you. Most compassionate. Practice well, with gratitude. Namo, --Joe 覺妙精明 （JMJM） chan.jmjm@... wrote: Hi Joe, Notice the I in I concur, the I in I second. The I in I believe. We are all products of the causations. The I is just a result driven by ALL. ALL is. _/\_ JMJM
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
Mike, Yes; Tangled up in glue, sumptimes. ;-( Yet, we try. ;-) --Joe mike brown uerusuboyo@... wrote: My I is not a lie, but just a conventionalization, so we can talk together. Good luck! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
Anyone who gets their morals from some religion has none of their own... Edgar On Aug 4, 2012, at 9:57 AM, Mel wrote: From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 4 August 2012 9:45 AM Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi Mike, You've hit upon the biggest objection I have to religions when you asked: Where do Christians get there morals from...? The problem is they get them from their religion. In the case of Christianity it is from (listed from best to worst IMO) Jesus's teachings, The Bible or their priest. They should be getting them from the Holy Ghost (Buddha Nature). You don't need a religion to experience the Holy Ghost or Buddha Nature. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@... wrote: Bill!, I'd rather be possessed by 'me' than a spook in a white sheet who did it with a married man's wife (Where do Christians get there morals from again?..). Mike MEL: A lot of today's religious or spiritually-inspired morals come from human interpretation, and not from holy writ itself
Re; [Zen] Samadhi
Edgar, Some religions preach killing of infidels, those not yet converted to the ways of the self-righteous and self-forgiving Camel-thief. He wrote himself a hall-pass in his Koran (people raised in American public [government...] schools will understand the reference). May all our religious codes, and other codes, keep us free from such people and such dastardly ways. Imagine: their Book says these things, and they read it and go ahead and trust it, and enact the actions. The chapter The Spoils says enough for me. There's no way to hide the intent by re-translation(s), nor commentary. Danger, Will Robinson! Reboot, pls. Yet, I trust the Sufis with my life. Mysticism separates the grain from the mould-infected chaff. Sufism is a tradition of transmission, like our Zen, not dependent on words or letters. Salam malecum. --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Anyone who gets their morals from some religion has none of their own... Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
Kris, Buddha and Christ are not names - they are recognition of realization. I've being sitting and have used your statement above as a koan. rather than try to rationalise it, and we have a meeting of mind. Thanks for pointing it out to me. However (there's always a however), with that being so, that makes it even less of a 'requirement' for me to become acquainted with Christianity or the Bible. We've already met. Mike
Re: Re; [Zen] Samadhi
Yes joe spot on...sufismmerle Edgar, Some religions preach killing of infidels, those not yet converted to the ways of the self-righteous and self-forgiving Camel-thief. He wrote himself a hall-pass in his Koran (people raised in American public [government...] schools will understand the reference). May all our religious codes, and other codes, keep us free from such people and such dastardly ways. Imagine: their Book says these things, and they read it and go ahead and trust it, and enact the actions. The chapter The Spoils says enough for me. There's no way to hide the intent by re-translation(s), nor commentary. Danger, Will Robinson! Reboot, pls. Yet, I trust the Sufis with my life. Mysticism separates the grain from the mould-infected chaff. Sufism is a tradition of transmission, like our Zen, not dependent on words or letters. Salam malecum. --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Anyone who gets their morals from some religion has none of their own...
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
do what you will mel..tis your choice..you are the captain of your own ship...we are all on a destination... the journey so to speak...take it easy..don't forget to breathe and laugh...happy wandering through the maze..merle MEL: That is quite true..there are those who are holy, and those who are holy..and irrespective of whatever religious inclination they follow. Christianity and its 2 other cousins from the Oriental Near East have so much to offer, but only through study of their respective scriptures. Each of these Big 3 from the above mentioned region have so much to offer if time is taken to examine as such..but how much time does one have? The Buddhist writings themselves are so vast that it would take more than a lifetime to cover them As I was sitting typing here, a young and blind-drunk Pacific Islander kid of no more than 15 or 16 (compared to my 50) ranted on about how much of a 'holy man' as such he was. So it's quite true. The kid looks like a church-going type who would never dream of telling his mother where to go(SWEARING, in other words), but he looked messed up. I've seen him in his high school uniform with the rest of the other regular street gangs in the mid-afternoon peak hour after school, and that to me tells that he can read (including scripture) instead of just relying on the drivel from the pulpit. Without that full scripture knowledge and acceptance of both OLD and NEW, how can one know what this god they speak of wants? I can continue being a Quaker and attend the Sunday morning meetings, and then be with the Sangha at the local Soto Zen temple in the evenings. Which way should one go? One has to eventually make the choiceand that's something the Big 3 above makes pretty clear from the beginning. I'll be truthfull here and say there is beauty in being a Quaker who lives life according to scripture, but there's much less stress and indeed more peace in the world of Zen...even without reading the Buddhist writings. I've read up to First Book of Kings, but I've only read ZEN MIND BEGINNERS MIND (quite a few times) from the Buddhist side. Sometimes, less is indeed better -- MIKE: Merle, Guess I met too many Christians. --- MEL: And this is just me personally, but the problem with a lot of evangelistics from all the Big 3 is that they seem to be more interested in filling not only the house and yards at both sides, but the whole street and even neighborhood. First of all, one must clean one's own house before filling it with anything, and sometimes, less is better. A clear spaceBuddha(or Tao if you prefer)... From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 4 August 2012, 0:58 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi godfathers, mike..you live in a world where there are millions of christians and your not the least interested or curious to find out the nitty gritty of it all... why?..merle MEL: The one thing that so many Christians out there forget is to study scripture, and that means both OLD, and NEW TESTAMENTS(and for the keen, they may add APOCRYPHA if they wish). My understanding of that 'nitty gritty' as such is the reading material itself. Without the study, one is basically just one of the mindless herd
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
i like what i hear of quakers..they sit quietly with the earth and their footsteps are soft...keep to the path forever true to yourself...may i request you age mel?..merle Bill!, The nearest Christian meditation to shikantaza I can think of is the one Chris mentioned he went to. Wasn't it the Quaker sect? Mike MEL: The Quakers sit in silence for the whole meeting, awaiting something to come to them from above, be it God himself or a message from him, or something inspired from his teachings, directly or indirectly. During this entire period, everyone is welcome to stand up and break the silence to share something with everyone that came to them by way of something inspired from aboveagain, directly, or indirectly. Such talk will not be questioned or debated, but accepted with grace and in silence, and the silence of the meeting then resumes. For those who have access to it and are interested in the Quakers, please get a hold of the 50s Hollywood classic FRIENDLY PERSUASION I cannot speak of, or for all Quakers, but the ones here DownUnder(Australia) in this lovely city of Melbourne are not what Australians lovingly refer to as...bible-bashers..if such a term makes sense to my American neighbors up north. They will keep to themselves, but will only speak of all things religious (including scripture) if asked by interested individuals. MATTHEW 28:19-20 is not carried into extremes, as I had seen with BornAgains
Re: Re; [Zen] Samadhi
Joe, Mysticism separates the grain from the mould-infected chaff. It's rare for me ever to be in the defence of religion, In fact, this is a first. But thinking quite deeply about what he wrote, I also came to the realisation that we shouldn't disparage those religions where the message could only survive by codifying it in ritual (spoken and performed). I see this development quite clearly in Buddhism. The message, and the means to realise that message, could only be stored in the community memory by oral repetition and ritual. I believe it was kept alive for 500 years this way before being codified in the sutras. 500 years - amazing. Even today, many people are initially attracted to the religious side of Buddhism before realising the ritual is just an expression of the Dharma. So I'm grateful for the religious side of Buddhism because it did it's job well. Maybe a kinder way of looking at it, rather than mould-infected chaff (lol!), is that it is like the smoke that carries the molecules of THC into my blood stream ; ) Mike From: Joe desert_woodwor...@yahoo.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 5 August 2012, 0:24 Subject: Re; [Zen] Samadhi Edgar, Some religions preach killing of infidels, those not yet converted to the ways of the self-righteous and self-forgiving Camel-thief. He wrote himself a hall-pass in his Koran (people raised in American public [government...] schools will understand the reference). May all our religious codes, and other codes, keep us free from such people and such dastardly ways. Imagine: their Book says these things, and they read it and go ahead and trust it, and enact the actions. The chapter The Spoils says enough for me. There's no way to hide the intent by re-translation(s), nor commentary. Danger, Will Robinson! Reboot, pls. Yet, I trust the Sufis with my life. Mysticism separates the grain from the mould-infected chaff. Sufism is a tradition of transmission, like our Zen, not dependent on words or letters. Salam malecum. --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Anyone who gets their morals from some religion has none of their own...
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
On 8/4/2012 12:29 AM, Merle Lester wrote: they were searching for the pearl of enlightenment... for christ sake!. ..as if!. As if I need to say I love you, and your expression of this (as if these can differ!). The 'pearl' made me remember this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcCXnXDiKoQ KG Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
On 8/4/2012 2:15 AM, Bill! wrote: JMJM, You're correct. No joy or sadness. Just release. ...Bill! The release of the illusion, the embrace of nothing. Laughter inseparable from tears. The obvious impossibility of this, infinite bliss. KG
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
I'm in my 50s From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 5 August 2012 8:05 AM Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi i like what i hear of quakers..they sit quietly with the earth and their footsteps are soft...keep to the path forever true to yourself...may i request you age mel?..merle Bill!, The nearest Christian meditation to shikantaza I can think of is the one Chris mentioned he went to. Wasn't it the Quaker sect? Mike MEL: The Quakers sit in silence for the whole meeting, awaiting something to come to them from above, be it God himself or a message from him, or something inspired from his teachings, directly or indirectly. During this entire period, everyone is welcome to stand up and break the silence to share something with everyone that came to them by way of something inspired from aboveagain, directly, or indirectly. Such talk will not be questioned or debated, but accepted with grace and in silence, and the silence of the meeting then resumes. For those who have access to it and are interested in the Quakers, please get a hold of the 50s Hollywood classic FRIENDLY PERSUASION I cannot speak of, or for all Quakers, but the ones here DownUnder(Australia) in this lovely city of Melbourne are not what Australians lovingly refer to as...bible-bashers..if such a term makes sense to my American neighbors up north. They will keep to themselves, but will only speak of all things religious (including scripture) if asked by interested individuals. MATTHEW 28:19-20 is not carried into extremes, as I had seen with BornAgains
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
No arguing a direct approach! *L* In text, the best we can do is work to get someone twisted around enough to administer the blow themselves. ;) KG On 8/4/2012 12:34 PM, 覺妙精明 （JMJM） wrote: Sometimes, a real Kyosaku is necessary. :-) On 8/4/2012 8:49 AM, Kristopher Grey wrote: On 8/3/2012 5:15 PM, mike brown wrote: Sometimes we have to categorise Who says so? Categorization happens, we are not bound to it. Not a problem otherwise. KG
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
On 8/4/2012 12:44 PM, mike brown wrote: Why indeed go to a Chan sitting - surely a KKK meeting would be the same? This apparently depends on you, at least until it doesn't. KG Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
good one..thanks..merle On 8/4/2012 12:29 AM, Merle Lester wrote: they were searching for the pearl of enlightenment... for christ sake!. ..as if!. As if I need to say I love you, and your expression of this (as if these can differ!). The 'pearl' made me remember this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcCXnXDiKoQ KG
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
Joe, If you knowsamadhi from experience, you will not quibble with masters, nor me. Nah, bollocks to him. To whinge about quiescence after sitting in a cave for 9 years staring at a cave wall. Meh. Mike From: Joe desert_woodwor...@yahoo.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 3:20 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi Howdy, Kris, Fine business. As we say in ham radio. But there are fine points within this samadhi business. If you know samadhi from experience, you will not quibble with masters, nor me. Some students (questioning) use words wrongly. That's the trouble with historical records. All is recorded. --Joe Kristopher Grey kris@... wrote: I'm not one to quote often, but came across this bit on samadhi today:
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
Bill! The (Holy) ghost in the machine, perhaps? I dunno about your description, tho. Isn't to be filled a bit different from 'empty'? Plus, when I hear those happy clappy born-agains say they're filled with the Holy Spirit, they seem quite a different animal from a Zen practioner sitting in shikantaza. Mike From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 11:24 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi Mike, I would describe it as something similar to being filled with the Holy Spirit and giving yourself over COMPLETELY to God's will. Bill! (not Joe or Bill) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@... wrote: Joe, How would you describe shikantaza to someone from a religion such as Christianity? Mike From: Joe desert_woodworker@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 3:24 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi  Shikantaza is just keeping empty. In the Zen sect. I'll say no more! --Joe ED seacrofter001@ wrote: Mike, Is shikantaza insight meditation, absorption meditation or both?
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
Yes, That's exactly how one of our practitioner, John Ip, described his experience. John is a devoted Christian for over 20 years. Last month, he shared, instead of words words and words, after enhancing his physical state, the Holy Ghost comes into him and he broke down and cried. He practices in our Family Meditation program in our community library for about 5 months. Now he sits longer and longer everyday. I told him, Holy Spirit is called Dharmakaya in Buddhism. Same energy, just different names. And that is just the beginning. Many of our practitioners witnesses an explosion from their heart chakra. There were no fear. Our Teacher said, when there is white light from the Heart Chakra, then you have witness Buddha Nature. My sister-in-law witnesses white light every time she sits. She knows phenomena of previous generations of other practitioners and helps them to resolve many karma. As to Mike's statement that he can recognize but can not express is a perfect example that when we surpass our skandhas, or regular senses, we reach a wider state of awareness, far beyond we can describe by words, logic. It is direct, instant and right. Some discussions in this forum mixing up the description for the two states, one is limited and the other is wider, and initiated some discussion. Depending on the scope and sensitivity of our awareness, the languages and dictionary are different. Only when we abandon our dictionary; experience; then could we witness the state of being of others. Discussion through words are very dangerous. Thus Chan is without words and transmitted in addition to teaching. When someday, whatever people say, we say ah, yes. without analyzing, debating, defense, then we are truly in each moment and live in sync with the wisdom and life force of the universe. Good Day and Thank you for reading this. _/\_ JM On 8/3/2012 3:24 AM, Bill! wrote: Mike, I would describe it as something similar to being filled with the Holy Spirit and giving yourself over COMPLETELY to God's will. Bill! (not Joe or Bill) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@... wrote: Joe, How would you describe shikantaza to someone from a religion such as Christianity? Mike From: Joe desert_woodworker@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 3:24 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi  Shikantaza is just keeping empty. In the Zen sect. I'll say no more! --Joe ED seacrofter001@ wrote: Mike, Is shikantaza insight meditation, absorption meditation or both?
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
JMJM, I could be wrong, but if your colleague broke down and cried after being filled with the Holy Ghost, then I think at some point his sitting stopped being shikantaza, if indeed it ever was. My understanding is that there would be equanimity, awareness and just simple observation of what was happening if it was shikantaza. I'm sure one of our more experienced members will clarify the matter for us. Mike From: 覺妙精明 （JMJM） chan.j...@gmail.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Cc: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 16:53 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi Yes, That's exactly how one of our practitioner, John Ip, described his experience. John is a devoted Christian for over 20 years. Last month, he shared, instead of words words and words, after enhancing his physical state, the Holy Ghost comes into him and he broke down and cried. He practices in our Family Meditation program in our community library for about 5 months. Now he sits longer and longer everyday. I told him, Holy Spirit is called Dharmakaya in Buddhism. Same energy, just different names. And that is just the beginning. Many of our practitioners witnesses an explosion from their heart chakra. There were no fear. Our Teacher said, when there is white light from the Heart Chakra, then you have witness Buddha Nature. My sister-in-law witnesses white light every time she sits. She knows phenomena of previous generations of other practitioners and helps them to resolve many karma. As to Mike's statement that he can recognize but can not express is a perfect example that when we surpass our skandhas, or regular senses, we reach a wider state of awareness, far beyond we can describe by words, logic. It is direct, instant and right. Some discussions in this forum mixing up the description for the two states, one is limited and the other is wider, and initiated some discussion. Depending on the scope and sensitivity of our awareness, the languages and dictionary are different. Only when we abandon our dictionary; experience; then could we witness the state of being of others. Discussion through words are very dangerous. Thus Chan is without words and transmitted in addition to teaching. When someday, whatever people say, we say ah, yes. without analyzing, debating, defense, then we are truly in each moment and live in sync with the wisdom and life force of the universe. Good Day and Thank you for reading this. _/\_ JM On 8/3/2012 3:24 AM, Bill! wrote: Mike, I would describe it as something similar to being filled with the Holy Spirit and giving yourself over COMPLETELY to God's will. Bill! (not Joe or Bill) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@... wrote: Joe, How would you describe shikantaza to someone from a religion such as Christianity? Mike From: Joe desert_woodworker@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 3:24 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi  Shikantaza is just keeping empty. In the Zen sect. I'll say no more! --Joe ED seacrofter001@ wrote: Mike, Is shikantaza insight meditation, absorption meditation or both?
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
On 8/3/2012 2:09 AM, mike brown wrote: Or the Blind Master from the 1970's Kung Fu series? Hungry grasshopper Ant gathering for others None can eat pebbles KG Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
'Grace' - symbolized by the intersection of the cross. The non-point appearing to rest on the horizon between heaven and earth, where from both spring from... Just this... There are Christian meditative practices... though not taught/practiced by the consumer Christians. Prayer, real prayer not asking for magic favors, it is a form of meditation. Like other meditation, some prayers have a focus, some do not. A completely open prayer - openess to what is/will be - simply being - is this not also 'shikantaza'? Look past the differences, and there is only this. KG On 8/3/2012 6:24 AM, Bill! wrote: Mike, I would describe it as something similar to being filled with the Holy Spirit and giving yourself over COMPLETELY to God's will. Bill! (not Joe or Bill) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@... wrote: Joe, How would you describe shikantaza to someone from a religion such as Christianity? Mike From: Joe desert_woodworker@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 3:24 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi  Shikantaza is just keeping empty. In the Zen sect. I'll say no more! --Joe ED seacrofter001@ wrote: Mike, Is shikantaza insight meditation, absorption meditation or both?
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
Hi Mike, Thank you, but there is no need to categorize. John was merely grateful that he finally witness the description of love, grace and holy spirit. I am sure John will experience the rest as he continue to purify his body and mind, just like the rest of us. jm On 8/3/2012 10:34 AM, mike brown wrote: JMJM, I could be wrong, but if your colleague broke down and cried after being filled with the Holy Ghost, then I think at some point his sitting stopped being shikantaza, if indeed it ever was. My understanding is that there would be equanimity, awareness and just simple observation of what was happening if it was shikantaza. I'm sure one of our more experienced members will clarify the matter for us. Mike *From:* 覺妙精明 （JMJM） chan.j...@gmail.com *To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *Cc:* Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org *Sent:* Friday, 3 August 2012, 16:53 *Subject:* Re: [Zen] Samadhi Yes, That's exactly how one of our practitioner, John Ip, described his experience. John is a devoted Christian for over 20 years. Last month, he shared, instead of words words and words, after enhancing his physical state, the Holy Ghost comes into him and he broke down and cried. He practices in our Family Meditation program in our community library for about 5 months. Now he sits longer and longer everyday. I told him, Holy Spirit is called Dharmakaya in Buddhism. Same energy, just different names. And that is just the beginning. Many of our practitioners witnesses an explosion from their heart chakra. There were no fear. Our Teacher said, when there is white light from the Heart Chakra, then you have witness Buddha Nature. My sister-in-law witnesses white light every time she sits. She knows phenomena of previous generations of other practitioners and helps them to resolve many karma. As to Mike's statement that he can recognize but can not express is a perfect example that when we surpass our skandhas, or regular senses, we reach a wider state of awareness, far beyond we can describe by words, logic. It is direct, instant and right. Some discussions in this forum mixing up the description for the two states, one is limited and the other is wider, and initiated some discussion. Depending on the scope and sensitivity of our awareness, the languages and dictionary are different. Only when we abandon our dictionary; experience; then could we witness the state of being of others. Discussion through words are very dangerous. Thus Chan is without words and transmitted in addition to teaching. When someday, whatever people say, we say ah, yes. without analyzing, debating, defense, then we are truly in each moment and live in sync with the wisdom and life force of the universe. Good Day and Thank you for reading this. _/\_ JM On 8/3/2012 3:24 AM, Bill! wrote: Mike, I would describe it as something similar to being filled with the Holy Spirit and giving yourself over COMPLETELY to God's will. Bill! (not Joe or Bill) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@... mailto:uerusuboyo@... wrote: Joe, How would you describe shikantaza to someone from a religion such as Christianity? Mike From: Joe desert_woodworker@... mailto:desert_woodworker@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 3:24 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi  Shikantaza is just keeping empty. In the Zen sect. I'll say no more! --Joe ED seacrofter001@ wrote: Mike, Is shikantaza insight meditation, absorption meditation or both?
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
On 8/3/2012 1:34 PM, mike brown wrote: I'm sure one of our more experienced members will clarify the matter for us. The only thing to clear up is thinking the form this man's experiences take matters to anyone else, that either is anything more than appearances, and that anything needs to/can be so clarified. *L* KG Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
Kris, None can eat pebbles Why would anyone want to eat that cute little girl from the Flintstones? You silly blind monk. Mike From: Kristopher Grey k...@kgrey.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 19:20 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi On 8/3/2012 2:09 AM, mike brown wrote: Or the Blind Master from the 1970's Kung Fu series? Hungry grasshopper Ant gathering for others None can eat pebbles KG
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
JMJM, I don't wish to sound like I'm demeaning John's experience, I'm very happy that he finally discovered something of importance to him, but you originally said he did more than just witness this event. Anything more is not shikantaza as I understand it. Sometimes we have to categorise. Shikantaza is not TM or bhakti yoga meditation. There are differences. Mike From: 覺妙精明 （JMJM） chan.j...@gmail.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 19:35 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi Hi Mike, Thank you, but there is no need to categorize. John was merely grateful that he finally witness the description of love, grace and holy spirit. I am sure John will experience the rest as he continue to purify his body and mind, just like the rest of us. jm On 8/3/2012 10:34 AM, mike brown wrote: JMJM, I could be wrong, but if your colleague broke down and cried after being filled with the Holy Ghost, then I think at some point his sitting stopped being shikantaza, if indeed it ever was. My understanding is that there would be equanimity, awareness and just simple observation of what was happening if it was shikantaza. I'm sure one of our more experienced members will clarify the matter for us. Mike From: 覺妙精明 （JMJM） chan.j...@gmail.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Cc: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 16:53 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi Yes, That's exactly how one of our practitioner, John Ip, described his experience. John is a devoted Christian for over 20 years. Last month, he shared, instead of words words and words, after enhancing his physical state, the Holy Ghost comes into him and he broke down and cried. He practices in our Family Meditation program in our community library for about 5 months. Now he sits longer and longer everyday. I told him, Holy Spirit is called Dharmakaya in Buddhism. Same energy, just different names. And that is just the beginning. Many of our practitioners witnesses an explosion from their heart chakra. There were no fear. Our Teacher said, when there is white light from the Heart Chakra, then you have witness Buddha Nature. My sister-in-law witnesses white light every time she sits. She knows phenomena of previous generations of other practitioners and helps them to resolve many karma. As to Mike's statement that he can recognize but can not express is a perfect example that when we surpass our skandhas, or regular senses, we reach a wider state of awareness, far beyond we can describe by words, logic. It is direct, instant and right. Some discussions in this forum mixing up the description for the two states, one is limited and the other is wider, and initiated some discussion. Depending on the scope and sensitivity of our awareness, the languages and dictionary are different. Only when we abandon our dictionary; experience; then could we witness the state of being of others. Discussion through words are very dangerous. Thus Chan is without words and transmitted in addition to teaching. When someday, whatever people say, we say ah, yes. without analyzing, debating, defense, then we are truly in each moment and live in sync with the wisdom and life force of the universe. Good Day and Thank you for reading this. _/\_ JM On 8/3/2012 3:24 AM, Bill! wrote: Mike, I would describe it as something similar to being filled with the Holy Spirit and giving yourself over COMPLETELY to God's will. Bill! (not Joe or Bill) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@... wrote: Joe, How would you describe shikantaza to someone from a religion such as Christianity? Mike From: Joe desert_woodworker@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 3:24 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi  Shikantaza is just keeping empty. In the Zen sect. I'll say no more! --Joe ED seacrofter001
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
Kris, I know absolutely sweet f.a about Christianity, never mind Christian forms of meditation, so I'll accept what you say about grace, being open and 'just this'. I would still, however, argue that being overwhelmed emotionally at feeling like you are being filled with the Holy Ghost, or whatever else, is not observing with equanimity and is therefore not shikantaza. If I sit down to practice shikantaza and I have a feeling that my dead grandmother is with me, is it still shikantaza if I feel overwhelmed and start bawling my eyes out? Or does Jesus get a free pass? Mike From: Kristopher Grey k...@kgrey.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 19:33 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi 'Grace' - symbolized by the intersection of the cross. The non-point appearing to rest on the horizon between heaven and earth, where from both spring from... Just this... There are Christian meditative practices... though not taught/practiced by the consumer Christians. Prayer, real prayer not asking for magic favors, it is a form of meditation. Like other meditation, some prayers have a focus, some do not. A completely open prayer - openess to what is/will be - simply being - is this not also 'shikantaza'? Look past the differences, and there is only this. KG On 8/3/2012 6:24 AM, Bill! wrote: Mike, I would describe it as something similar to being filled with the Holy Spirit and giving yourself over COMPLETELY to God's will. Bill! (not Joe or Bill) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@... wrote: Joe, How would you describe shikantaza to someone from a religion such as Christianity? Mike From: Joe desert_woodworker@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 3:24 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi  Shikantaza is just keeping empty. In the Zen sect. I'll say no more! --Joe ED seacrofter001@ wrote: Mike, Is shikantaza insight meditation, absorption meditation or both?
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
Kris, We can all be happy and rejoice in this man's take on what he experienced, but the discussion we were having was on shikantaza. Is a new meaning of shikantaza now a catch all for any experience and how the mind is affected. Sounds like meditative political correctness gone mad. Mike From: Kristopher Grey k...@kgrey.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 20:44 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi On 8/3/2012 1:34 PM, mike brown wrote: I'm sure one of our more experienced members will clarify the matter for us. The only thing to clear up is thinking the form this man's experiences take matters to anyone else, that either is anything more than appearances, and that anything needs to/can be so clarified. *L* KG
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
JMJM, Since you prefer to get deep into the muddy form of words.. Not at all. But I do like to know/clarify what it is that is being discussed or what it is I'm supposed to be practicing. If we are going to use language, then let's at least get the terminology right. Sitting with a clear mind is sitting with a clear mind - it's not an emotional free for all. Mike From: 覺妙精明 （JMJM） chan.j...@gmail.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Cc: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 22:28 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi Oh Mike, When I say more, I mean more experience for John. It will take him sometime to be truly detached from forms and arrive at the middle way. Since you prefer to get deep into the muddy form of words Shigantaza is not what we practice. Historically Chan is the parent of zen. Is it possible that some of the authentic Chan practice is missing from zen? Yet... This kind of discussion does help anyone. What we need to do is not to poke at the difference in our mental understandings or description of practice. There is no dharma in words. Dharma as you have experienced, needs to be received by our Heart Chakra, directly, instantly without fear. Isn't that what Diamond Sutra continuously trying to tell us? Most of us are fearful of loosing whatever concepts of dharma we acquired. We need to let everyone relax, so to forget every thread of dharma in our mind. Open our Heart chakra and resonate with the wisdom of each moment. _/\_ jm On 8/3/2012 2:15 PM, mike brown wrote: JMJM, I don't wish to sound like I'm demeaning John's experience, I'm very happy that he finally discovered something of importance to him, but you originally said he did more than just witness this event. Anything more is not shikantaza as I understand it. Sometimes we have to categorise. Shikantaza is not TM or bhakti yoga meditation. There are differences. Mike From: 覺妙精明 （JMJM） chan.j...@gmail.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 19:35 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi Hi Mike, Thank you, but there is no need to categorize. John was merely grateful that he finally witness the description of love, grace and holy spirit. I am sure John will experience the rest as he continue to purify his body and mind, just like the rest of us. jm On 8/3/2012 10:34 AM, mike brown wrote: JMJM, I could be wrong, but if your colleague broke down and cried after being filled with the Holy Ghost, then I think at some point his sitting stopped being shikantaza, if indeed it ever was. My understanding is that there would be equanimity, awareness and just simple observation of what was happening if it was shikantaza. I'm sure one of our more experienced members will clarify the matter for us. Mike From: 覺妙精明 （JMJM） chan.j...@gmail.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Cc: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 16:53 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi Yes, That's exactly how one of our practitioner, John Ip, described his experience. John is a devoted Christian for over 20 years. Last month, he shared, instead of words words and words, after enhancing his physical state, the Holy Ghost comes into him and he broke down and cried. He practices in our Family Meditation program in our community library for about 5 months. Now he sits longer and longer everyday. I told him, Holy Spirit is called Dharmakaya in Buddhism. Same energy, just different names. And that is just the beginning. Many of our practitioners witnesses an explosion from their heart chakra. There were no fear. Our Teacher said, when there is white light from the Heart Chakra, then you have witness Buddha Nature. My sister-in-law witnesses white light every time she sits. She knows phenomena of previous generations of other practitioners and helps them to resolve many karma. As to Mike's statement that he can recognize
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
godfathers, mike..you live in a world where there are millions of christians and your not the least interested or curious to find out the nitty gritty of it all... why?..merle Kris, I know absolutely sweet f.a about Christianity, never mind Christian forms of meditation, so I'll accept what you say about grace, being open and 'just this'. I would still, however, argue that being overwhelmed emotionally at feeling like you are being filled with the Holy Ghost, or whatever else, is not observing with equanimity and is therefore not shikantaza. If I sit down to practice shikantaza and I have a feeling that my dead grandmother is with me, is it still shikantaza if I feel overwhelmed and start bawling my eyes out? Or does Jesus get a free pass? Mike From: Kristopher Grey k...@kgrey.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 19:33 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi 'Grace' - symbolized by the intersection of the cross. The non-point appearing to rest on the horizon between heaven and earth, where from both spring from... Just this... There are Christian meditative practices... though not taught/practiced by the consumer Christians. Prayer, real prayer not asking for magic favors, it is a form of meditation. Like other meditation, some prayers have a focus, some do not. A completely open prayer - openess to what is/will be - simply being - is this not also 'shikantaza'? Look past the differences, and there is only this. KG On 8/3/2012 6:24 AM, Bill! wrote: Mike, I would describe it as something similar to being filled with the Holy Spirit and giving yourself over COMPLETELY to God's will. Bill! (not Joe or Bill) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@... wrote: Joe, How would you describe shikantaza to someone from a religion such as Christianity? Mike From: Joe desert_woodworker@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 3:24 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi  Shikantaza is just keeping empty. In the Zen sect. I'll say no more! --Joe ED seacrofter001@ wrote: Mike, Is shikantaza insight meditation, absorption meditation or both?
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
Merle, Guess I met too many Christians. Mike From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 4 August 2012, 0:58 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi godfathers, mike..you live in a world where there are millions of christians and your not the least interested or curious to find out the nitty gritty of it all... why?..merle Kris, I know absolutely sweet f.a about Christianity, never mind Christian forms of meditation, so I'll accept what you say about grace, being open and 'just this'. I would still, however, argue that being overwhelmed emotionally at feeling like you are being filled with the Holy Ghost, or whatever else, is not observing with equanimity and is therefore not shikantaza. If I sit down to practice shikantaza and I have a feeling that my dead grandmother is with me, is it still shikantaza if I feel overwhelmed and start bawling my eyes out? Or does Jesus get a free pass? Mike From: Kristopher Grey k...@kgrey.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 19:33 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi 'Grace' - symbolized by the intersection of the cross. The non-point appearing to rest on the horizon between heaven and earth, where from both spring from... Just this... There are Christian meditative practices... though not taught/practiced by the consumer Christians. Prayer, real prayer not asking for magic favors, it is a form of meditation. Like other meditation, some prayers have a focus, some do not. A completely open prayer - openess to what is/will be - simply being - is this not also 'shikantaza'? Look past the differences, and there is only this. KG On 8/3/2012 6:24 AM, Bill! wrote: Mike, I would describe it as something similar to being filled with the Holy Spirit and giving yourself over COMPLETELY to God's will. Bill! (not Joe or Bill) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@... wrote: Joe, How would you describe shikantaza to someone from a religion such as Christianity? Mike From: Joe desert_woodworker@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 3:24 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi  Shikantaza is just keeping empty. In the Zen sect. I'll say no more! --Joe ED seacrofter001@ wrote: Mike, Is shikantaza insight meditation, absorption meditation or both?
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
mike..meaning what?...do not be so quick to judge..there are christians and christians...just as there are buddhists and buddhists.. . not all folk who meditate and sit cross legged for hours waiting for the light they too are not the perfecto..you are so desiring to be lighten up. .accept that christianity to may have something to offer if you take the time to examine merle Merle, Guess I met too many Christians. Mike From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 4 August 2012, 0:58 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi godfathers, mike..you live in a world where there are millions of christians and your not the least interested or curious to find out the nitty gritty of it all... why?..merle Kris, I know absolutely sweet f.a about Christianity, never mind Christian forms of meditation, so I'll accept what you say about grace, being open and 'just this'. I would still, however, argue that being overwhelmed emotionally at feeling like you are being filled with the Holy Ghost, or whatever else, is not observing with equanimity and is therefore not shikantaza. If I sit down to practice shikantaza and I have a feeling that my dead grandmother is with me, is it still shikantaza if I feel overwhelmed and start bawling my eyes out? Or does Jesus get a free pass? Mike From: Kristopher Grey k...@kgrey.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 19:33 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi 'Grace' - symbolized by the intersection of the cross. The non-point appearing to rest on the horizon between heaven and earth, where from both spring from... Just this... There are Christian meditative practices... though not taught/practiced by the consumer Christians. Prayer, real prayer not asking for magic favors, it is a form of meditation. Like other meditation, some prayers have a focus, some do not. A completely open prayer - openess to what is/will be - simply being - is this not also 'shikantaza'? Look past the differences, and there is only this. KG On 8/3/2012 6:24 AM, Bill! wrote: Mike, I would describe it as something similar to being filled with the Holy Spirit and giving yourself over COMPLETELY to God's will. Bill! (not Joe or Bill) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@... wrote: Joe, How would you describe shikantaza to someone from a religion such as Christianity? Mike From: Joe desert_woodworker@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 3:24 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi  Shikantaza is just keeping empty. In the Zen sect. I'll say no more! --Joe ED seacrofter001@ wrote: Mike, Is shikantaza insight meditation, absorption meditation or both?
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
Merle, I'm sure this is a lot in Christianity for many, but I don't see it. I was raised in an atheist household, I went to a secular school, none of my social circle are Christian. Maybe my lack of feeling like I was created by anything outside the natural world is proof I'm a far way from being perfecto. I'm truly sorry if my lack of faith, or inquiry, has touched a raw spot for you, but my worldview doesn't see the need to accept that Christianity has something to offer me any more than I would any other supernatural claim. When you wrote lighten up, I hope you were referring to me going to Hell? ; ) Mike From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 4 August 2012, 1:12 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi mike..meaning what?...do not be so quick to judge..there are christians and christians...just as there are buddhists and buddhists.. . not all folk who meditate and sit cross legged for hours waiting for the light they too are not the perfecto..you are so desiring to be lighten up. .accept that christianity to may have something to offer if you take the time to examine merle Merle, Guess I met too many Christians. Mike From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 4 August 2012, 0:58 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi godfathers, mike..you live in a world where there are millions of christians and your not the least interested or curious to find out the nitty gritty of it all... why?..merle Kris, I know absolutely sweet f.a about Christianity, never mind Christian forms of meditation, so I'll accept what you say about grace, being open and 'just this'. I would still, however, argue that being overwhelmed emotionally at feeling like you are being filled with the Holy Ghost, or whatever else, is not observing with equanimity and is therefore not shikantaza. If I sit down to practice shikantaza and I have a feeling that my dead grandmother is with me, is it still shikantaza if I feel overwhelmed and start bawling my eyes out? Or does Jesus get a free pass? Mike From: Kristopher Grey k...@kgrey.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 19:33 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi 'Grace' - symbolized by the intersection of the cross. The non-point appearing to rest on the horizon between heaven and earth, where from both spring from... Just this... There are Christian meditative practices... though not taught/practiced by the consumer Christians. Prayer, real prayer not asking for magic favors, it is a form of meditation. Like other meditation, some prayers have a focus, some do not. A completely open prayer - openess to what is/will be - simply being - is this not also 'shikantaza'? Look past the differences, and there is only this. KG On 8/3/2012 6:24 AM, Bill! wrote: Mike, I would describe it as something similar to being filled with the Holy Spirit and giving yourself over COMPLETELY to God's will. Bill! (not Joe or Bill) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@... wrote: Joe, How would you describe shikantaza to someone from a religion such as Christianity? Mike From: Joe desert_woodworker@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 3:24 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi  Shikantaza is just keeping empty. In the Zen sect. I'll say no more! --Joe ED seacrofter001@ wrote: Mike, Is shikantaza insight meditation, absorption meditation or both?
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
Mike, To be 'filled' with the Holy Spirit means there is no longer any room for your 'self'. Then there is no longer any self/other dualism. There is only Buddha Nature. Just THIS! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@... wrote: Bill! The (Holy) ghost in the machine, perhaps? I dunno about your description, tho. Isn't to be filled a bit different from 'empty'? Plus, when I hear those happy clappy born-agains say they're filled with the Holy Spirit, they seem quite a different animal from a Zen practioner sitting in shikantaza. Mike From: Bill! BillSmart@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 11:24 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi  Mike, I would describe it as something similar to being filled with the Holy Spirit and giving yourself over COMPLETELY to God's will. Bill! (not Joe or Bill) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@ wrote: Joe, How would you describe shikantaza to someone from a religion such as Christianity? Mike From: Joe desert_woodworker@ To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 3:24 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi àShikantaza is just keeping empty. In the Zen sect. I'll say no more! --Joe ED seacrofter001@ wrote: Mike, Is shikantaza insight meditation, absorption meditation or both? Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
Bill! Oh my god! Does that mean I'm possessed?? Mike 666 From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 4 August 2012, 1:57 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi Mike, To be 'filled' with the Holy Spirit means there is no longer any room for your 'self'. Then there is no longer any self/other dualism. There is only Buddha Nature. Just THIS! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@... wrote: Bill! The (Holy) ghost in the machine, perhaps? I dunno about your description, tho. Isn't to be filled a bit different from 'empty'? Plus, when I hear those happy clappy born-agains say they're filled with the Holy Spirit, they seem quite a different animal from a Zen practioner sitting in shikantaza. Mike From: Bill! BillSmart@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 11:24 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi  Mike, I would describe it as something similar to being filled with the Holy Spirit and giving yourself over COMPLETELY to God's will. Bill! (not Joe or Bill) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@ wrote: Joe, How would you describe shikantaza to someone from a religion such as Christianity? Mike From: Joe desert_woodworker@ To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 3:24 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi  Shikantaza is just keeping empty. In the Zen sect. I'll say no more! --Joe ED seacrofter001@ wrote: Mike, Is shikantaza insight meditation, absorption meditation or both?
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
Mike and JMJM, I can tell you when I first experienced Buddha Nature (kensho) while working on the koan Mu I broke down and cried. I was sitting in the zendo with many others and started sobbing uncontrollably. Several of the attendant immediately assisted me and took me to another room where I could gather myself; and then I was quickly ushered into dokusan. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@... wrote: JMJM, I could be wrong, but if your colleague broke down and cried after being filled with the Holy Ghost, then I think at some point his sitting stopped being shikantaza, if indeed it ever was. My understanding is that there would be equanimity, awareness and just simple observation of what was happening if it was shikantaza. I'm sure one of our more experienced members will clarify the matter for us. Mike From: 覺å¦ç²¾æ ï¼JMJMï¼ chan.jmjm@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Cc: Bill! BillSmart@... Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 16:53 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi  Yes, That's exactly how one of our practitioner, John Ip, described his experience. John is a devoted Christian for over 20 years. Last month, he shared, instead of words words and words, after enhancing his physical state, the Holy Ghost comes into him and he broke down and cried. He practices in our Family Meditation program in our community library for about 5 months. Now he sits longer and longer everyday. I told him, Holy Spirit is called Dharmakaya in Buddhism. Same energy, just different names. And that is just the beginning. Many of our practitioners witnesses an explosion from their heart chakra. There were no fear. Our Teacher said, when there is white light from the Heart Chakra, then you have witness Buddha Nature. My sister-in-law witnesses white light every time she sits. She knows phenomena of previous generations of other practitioners and helps them to resolve many karma. As to Mike's statement that he can recognize but can not express is a perfect example that when we surpass our skandhas, or regular senses, we reach a wider state of awareness, far beyond we can describe by words, logic. It is direct, instant and right. Some discussions in this forum mixing up the description for the two states, one is limited and the other is wider, and initiated some discussion. Depending on the scope and sensitivity of our awareness, the languages and dictionary are different. Only when we abandon our dictionary; experience; then could we witness the state of being of others. Discussion through words are very dangerous. Thus Chan is without words and transmitted in addition to teaching. When someday, whatever people say, we say ah, yes. without analyzing, debating, defense, then we are truly in each moment and live in sync with the wisdom and life force of the universe. Good Day and Thank you for reading this. _/\_ JM On 8/3/2012 3:24 AM, Bill! wrote:  Mike, I would describe it as something similar to being filled with the Holy Spirit and giving yourself over COMPLETELY to God's will. Bill! (not Joe or Bill) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@ wrote: Joe, How would you describe shikantaza to someone from a religion such as Christianity? Mike From: Joe desert_woodworker@ To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 3:24 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi àShikantaza is just keeping empty. In the Zen sect. I'll say no more! --Joe ED seacrofter001@ wrote: Mike, Is shikantaza insight meditation, absorption meditation or both? Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
Bill! You were working on a koan in shikantaza? Mike From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 4 August 2012, 2:11 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi Mike and JMJM, I can tell you when I first experienced Buddha Nature (kensho) while working on the koan Mu I broke down and cried. I was sitting in the zendo with many others and started sobbing uncontrollably. Several of the attendant immediately assisted me and took me to another room where I could gather myself; and then I was quickly ushered into dokusan. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@... wrote: JMJM, I could be wrong, but if your colleague broke down and cried after being filled with the Holy Ghost, then I think at some point his sitting stopped being shikantaza, if indeed it ever was. My understanding is that there would be equanimity, awareness and just simple observation of what was happening if it was shikantaza. I'm sure one of our more experienced members will clarify the matter for us. Mike From: 覺妙精明 （JMJM） chan.jmjm@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Cc: Bill! BillSmart@... Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 16:53 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi  Yes, That's exactly how one of our practitioner, John Ip, described his experience. John is a devoted Christian for over 20 years. Last month, he shared, instead of words words and words, after enhancing his physical state, the Holy Ghost comes into him and he broke down and cried. He practices in our Family Meditation program in our community library for about 5 months. Now he sits longer and longer everyday. I told him, Holy Spirit is called Dharmakaya in Buddhism. Same energy, just different names. And that is just the beginning. Many of our practitioners witnesses an explosion from their heart chakra. There were no fear. Our Teacher said, when there is white light from the Heart Chakra, then you have witness Buddha Nature. My sister-in-law witnesses white light every time she sits. She knows phenomena of previous generations of other practitioners and helps them to resolve many karma. As to Mike's statement that he can recognize but can not express is a perfect example that when we surpass our skandhas, or regular senses, we reach a wider state of awareness, far beyond we can describe by words, logic. It is direct, instant and right. Some discussions in this forum mixing up the description for the two states, one is limited and the other is wider, and initiated some discussion. Depending on the scope and sensitivity of our awareness, the languages and dictionary are different. Only when we abandon our dictionary; experience; then could we witness the state of being of others. Discussion through words are very dangerous. Thus Chan is without words and transmitted in addition to teaching. When someday, whatever people say, we say ah, yes. without analyzing, debating, defense, then we are truly in each moment and live in sync with the wisdom and life force of the universe. Good Day and Thank you for reading this. _/\_ JM On 8/3/2012 3:24 AM, Bill! wrote:  Mike, I would describe it as something similar to being filled with the Holy Spirit and giving yourself over COMPLETELY to God's will. Bill! (not Joe or Bill) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@ wrote: Joe, How would you describe shikantaza to someone from a religion such as Christianity? Mike From: Joe desert_woodworker@ To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 3:24 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi  Shikantaza is just keeping empty. In the Zen sect. I'll say no more! --Joe ED seacrofter001@ wrote: Mike, Is shikantaza insight meditation, absorption meditation or both?
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
Mike, You are right that ...being overwhelmed emotionally... and shikantaza are absolutely not the same things. I still think the closest Christian equivalent to shikantaza I know of would silent communion with God which is usually thought of as being filled with the Holy Ghost. Now, when you experience this the first time, just as when you become aware of Buddha Nature for the first time, there certainly can be a lot of both emotional and physical reactions. Shikantaza, however, is 'just sitting' - at one with Buddha Nature or 'filled with the Holy Spirit' and nothing more. IMO...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@... wrote: Kris, I know absolutely sweet f.a about Christianity, never mind Christian forms of meditation, so I'll accept what you say about grace, being open and 'just this'. I would still, however, argue that being overwhelmed emotionally at feeling like you are being filled with the Holy Ghost, or whatever else, is not observing with equanimity and is therefore not shikantaza. If I sit down to practice shikantaza and I have a feeling that my dead grandmother is with me, is it still shikantaza if I feel overwhelmed and start bawling my eyes out? Or does Jesus get a free pass? Mike From: Kristopher Grey kris@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 19:33 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi  'Grace' - symbolized by the intersection of the cross. The non-point appearing to rest on the horizon between heaven and earth, where from both spring from... Just this... There are Christian meditative practices... though not taught/practiced by the consumer Christians. Prayer, real prayer not asking for magic favors, it is a form of meditation. Like other meditation, some prayers have a focus, some do not. A completely open prayer - openess to what is/will be - simply being - is this not also 'shikantaza'? Look past the differences, and there is only this. KG On 8/3/2012 6:24 AM, Bill! wrote:  Mike, I would describe it as something similar to being filled with the Holy Spirit and giving yourself over COMPLETELY to God's will. Bill! (not Joe or Bill) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@ wrote: Joe, How would you describe shikantaza to someone from a religion such as Christianity? Mike From: Joe desert_woodworker@ To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 3:24 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi àShikantaza is just keeping empty. In the Zen sect. I'll say no more! --Joe ED seacrofter001@ wrote: Mike, Is shikantaza insight meditation, absorption meditation or both? Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
Shikantaza is part of my zen practice. No problems! Just THIS! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@... wrote: JMJM, Shigantaza is not what we practice. Problem solved! Mike From: 覺å¦ç²¾æ ï¼JMJMï¼ chan.jmjm@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Cc: mike brown uerusuboyo@... Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 22:28 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi  Oh Mike, When I say more, I mean more experience for John. It will take him sometime to be truly detached from forms and arrive at the middle way. Since you prefer to get deep into the muddy form of words Shigantaza is not what we practice. Historically Chan is the parent of zen. Is it possible that some of the authentic Chan practice is missing from zen? Yet... This kind of discussion does help anyone. What we need to do is not to poke at the difference in our mental understandings or description of practice. There is no dharma in words. Dharma as you have experienced, needs to be received by our Heart Chakra, directly, instantly without fear. Isn't that what Diamond Sutra continuously trying to tell us? Most of us are fearful of loosing whatever concepts of dharma we acquired. We need to let everyone relax, so to forget every thread of dharma in our mind. Open our Heart chakra and resonate with the wisdom of each moment. _/\_ jm On 8/3/2012 2:15 PM, mike brown wrote:  JMJM, I don't wish to sound like I'm demeaning John's experience, I'm very happy that he finally discovered something of importance to him, but you originally said he did more than just witness this event. Anything more is not shikantaza as I understand it. Sometimes we have to categorise. Shikantaza is not TM or bhakti yoga meditation. There are differences. Mike From: 覺å¦ç²¾æ ï¼JMJMï¼ chan.jmjm@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 19:35 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi  Hi Mike, Thank you, but there is no need to categorize. John was merely grateful that he finally witness the description of love, grace and holy spirit. I am sure John will experience the rest as he continue to purify his body and mind, just like the rest of us. jm On 8/3/2012 10:34 AM, mike brown wrote:  JMJM, I could be wrong, but if your colleague broke down and cried after being filled with the Holy Ghost, then I think at some point his sitting stopped being shikantaza, if indeed it ever was. My understanding is that there would be equanimity, awareness and just simple observation of what was happening if it was shikantaza. I'm sure one of our more experienced members will clarify the matter for us. Mike From: 覺å¦ç²¾æ ï¼JMJMï¼ chan.jmjm@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Cc: Bill! BillSmart@... Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 16:53 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi  Yes, That's exactly how one of our practitioner, John Ip, described his experience. John is a devoted Christian for over 20 years. Last month, he shared, instead of words words and words, after enhancing his physical state, the Holy Ghost comes into him and he broke down and cried. He practices in our Family Meditation program in our community library for about 5 months. Now he sits longer and longer everyday. I told him, Holy Spirit is called Dharmakaya in Buddhism. Same energy, just different names. And that is just the beginning. Many of our practitioners witnesses an explosion from their heart chakra. There were no fear. Our Teacher said, when there is white light from the Heart Chakra, then you have witness Buddha Nature. My sister-in-law witnesses white light every time she sits. She knows phenomena of previous generations of other practitioners and helps them to resolve many karma. As to Mike's statement that he can
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
I second Mike's statement! If we are going to use language, then let's at least get the terminology right. And to do that many times we have to talk about the terms we use to make sure we're talking about the same thing. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@... wrote: JMJM, Since you prefer to get deep into the muddy form of words.. Not at all. But I do like to know/clarify what it is that is being discussed or what it is I'm supposed to be practicing. If we are going to use language, then let's at least get the terminology right. Sitting with a clear mind is sitting with a clear mind - it's not an emotional free for all. Mike From: 覺å¦ç²¾æ ï¼JMJMï¼ chan.jmjm@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Cc: mike brown uerusuboyo@... Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 22:28 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi  Oh Mike, When I say more, I mean more experience for John. It will take him sometime to be truly detached from forms and arrive at the middle way. Since you prefer to get deep into the muddy form of words Shigantaza is not what we practice. Historically Chan is the parent of zen. Is it possible that some of the authentic Chan practice is missing from zen? Yet... This kind of discussion does help anyone. What we need to do is not to poke at the difference in our mental understandings or description of practice. There is no dharma in words. Dharma as you have experienced, needs to be received by our Heart Chakra, directly, instantly without fear. Isn't that what Diamond Sutra continuously trying to tell us? Most of us are fearful of loosing whatever concepts of dharma we acquired. We need to let everyone relax, so to forget every thread of dharma in our mind. Open our Heart chakra and resonate with the wisdom of each moment. _/\_ jm On 8/3/2012 2:15 PM, mike brown wrote:  JMJM, I don't wish to sound like I'm demeaning John's experience, I'm very happy that he finally discovered something of importance to him, but you originally said he did more than just witness this event. Anything more is not shikantaza as I understand it. Sometimes we have to categorise. Shikantaza is not TM or bhakti yoga meditation. There are differences. Mike From: 覺å¦ç²¾æ ï¼JMJMï¼ chan.jmjm@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 19:35 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi  Hi Mike, Thank you, but there is no need to categorize. John was merely grateful that he finally witness the description of love, grace and holy spirit. I am sure John will experience the rest as he continue to purify his body and mind, just like the rest of us. jm On 8/3/2012 10:34 AM, mike brown wrote:  JMJM, I could be wrong, but if your colleague broke down and cried after being filled with the Holy Ghost, then I think at some point his sitting stopped being shikantaza, if indeed it ever was. My understanding is that there would be equanimity, awareness and just simple observation of what was happening if it was shikantaza. I'm sure one of our more experienced members will clarify the matter for us. Mike From: 覺å¦ç²¾æ ï¼JMJMï¼ chan.jmjm@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Cc: Bill! BillSmart@... Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 16:53 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi  Yes, That's exactly how one of our practitioner, John Ip, described his experience. John is a devoted Christian for over 20 years. Last month, he shared, instead of words words and words, after enhancing his physical state, the Holy Ghost comes into him and he broke down and cried. He practices in our Family Meditation program in our community library for about 5 months. Now he sits longer and longer everyday. I told him, Holy Spirit is called Dharmakaya in Buddhism. Same energy, just different names. And that is just the beginning. Many of our practitioners witnesses an explosion from their heart chakra. There were no fear. Our Teacher said, when there is white light from the Heart Chakra, then you have witness Buddha Nature. My sister-in-law
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
Bill!, I remember prostrating myself on the kitchen floor in gratitude to the Zen Patriarchs after one particularly deep breakthru : ) Just seemed the right thing to do and there wasn't a seconds hesitation (Prostrating myself in front of people who have helped me is something I'm not usually over inclined to do). Mike From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 4 August 2012, 2:11 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi Mike and JMJM, I can tell you when I first experienced Buddha Nature (kensho) while working on the koan Mu I broke down and cried. I was sitting in the zendo with many others and started sobbing uncontrollably. Several of the attendant immediately assisted me and took me to another room where I could gather myself; and then I was quickly ushered into dokusan. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@... wrote: JMJM, I could be wrong, but if your colleague broke down and cried after being filled with the Holy Ghost, then I think at some point his sitting stopped being shikantaza, if indeed it ever was. My understanding is that there would be equanimity, awareness and just simple observation of what was happening if it was shikantaza. I'm sure one of our more experienced members will clarify the matter for us. Mike From: 覺妙精明 （JMJM） chan.jmjm@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Cc: Bill! BillSmart@... Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 16:53 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi  Yes, That's exactly how one of our practitioner, John Ip, described his experience. John is a devoted Christian for over 20 years. Last month, he shared, instead of words words and words, after enhancing his physical state, the Holy Ghost comes into him and he broke down and cried. He practices in our Family Meditation program in our community library for about 5 months. Now he sits longer and longer everyday. I told him, Holy Spirit is called Dharmakaya in Buddhism. Same energy, just different names. And that is just the beginning. Many of our practitioners witnesses an explosion from their heart chakra. There were no fear. Our Teacher said, when there is white light from the Heart Chakra, then you have witness Buddha Nature. My sister-in-law witnesses white light every time she sits. She knows phenomena of previous generations of other practitioners and helps them to resolve many karma. As to Mike's statement that he can recognize but can not express is a perfect example that when we surpass our skandhas, or regular senses, we reach a wider state of awareness, far beyond we can describe by words, logic. It is direct, instant and right. Some discussions in this forum mixing up the description for the two states, one is limited and the other is wider, and initiated some discussion. Depending on the scope and sensitivity of our awareness, the languages and dictionary are different. Only when we abandon our dictionary; experience; then could we witness the state of being of others. Discussion through words are very dangerous. Thus Chan is without words and transmitted in addition to teaching. When someday, whatever people say, we say ah, yes. without analyzing, debating, defense, then we are truly in each moment and live in sync with the wisdom and life force of the universe. Good Day and Thank you for reading this. _/\_ JM On 8/3/2012 3:24 AM, Bill! wrote:  Mike, I would describe it as something similar to being filled with the Holy Spirit and giving yourself over COMPLETELY to God's will. Bill! (not Joe or Bill) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@ wrote: Joe, How would you describe shikantaza to someone from a religion such as Christianity? Mike From: Joe desert_woodworker@ To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 3:24 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi  Shikantaza is just keeping empty. In the Zen sect. I'll say no more! --Joe ED seacrofter001@ wrote: Mike, Is shikantaza insight meditation, absorption meditation or both?
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
Bill!, The nearest Christian meditation to shikantaza I can think of is the one Chris mentioned he went to. Wasn't it the Quaker sect? Mike From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 4 August 2012, 2:20 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi Mike, You are right that ...being overwhelmed emotionally... and shikantaza are absolutely not the same things. I still think the closest Christian equivalent to shikantaza I know of would silent communion with God which is usually thought of as being filled with the Holy Ghost. Now, when you experience this the first time, just as when you become aware of Buddha Nature for the first time, there certainly can be a lot of both emotional and physical reactions. Shikantaza, however, is 'just sitting' - at one with Buddha Nature or 'filled with the Holy Spirit' and nothing more. IMO...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@... wrote: Kris, I know absolutely sweet f.a about Christianity, never mind Christian forms of meditation, so I'll accept what you say about grace, being open and 'just this'. I would still, however, argue that being overwhelmed emotionally at feeling like you are being filled with the Holy Ghost, or whatever else, is not observing with equanimity and is therefore not shikantaza. If I sit down to practice shikantaza and I have a feeling that my dead grandmother is with me, is it still shikantaza if I feel overwhelmed and start bawling my eyes out? Or does Jesus get a free pass? Mike From: Kristopher Grey kris@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 19:33 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi  'Grace' - symbolized by the intersection of the cross. The non-point appearing to rest on the horizon between heaven and earth, where from both spring from... Just this... There are Christian meditative practices... though not taught/practiced by the consumer Christians. Prayer, real prayer not asking for magic favors, it is a form of meditation. Like other meditation, some prayers have a focus, some do not. A completely open prayer - openess to what is/will be - simply being - is this not also 'shikantaza'? Look past the differences, and there is only this. KG On 8/3/2012 6:24 AM, Bill! wrote:  Mike, I would describe it as something similar to being filled with the Holy Spirit and giving yourself over COMPLETELY to God's will. Bill! (not Joe or Bill) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@ wrote: Joe, How would you describe shikantaza to someone from a religion such as Christianity? Mike From: Joe desert_woodworker@ To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 3:24 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi  Shikantaza is just keeping empty. In the Zen sect. I'll say no more! --Joe ED seacrofter001@ wrote: Mike, Is shikantaza insight meditation, absorption meditation or both?
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
Mike, Actually that mean YOU have bee DIS-POSSESSED...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@... wrote: Bill! Oh my god! Does that mean I'm possessed?? Mike 666 From: Bill! BillSmart@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 4 August 2012, 1:57 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi  Mike, To be 'filled' with the Holy Spirit means there is no longer any room for your 'self'. Then there is no longer any self/other dualism. There is only Buddha Nature. Just THIS! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@ wrote: Bill! The (Holy) ghost in the machine, perhaps? I dunno about your description, tho. Isn't to be filled a bit different from 'empty'? Plus, when I hear those happy clappy born-agains say they're filled with the Holy Spirit, they seem quite a different animal from a Zen practioner sitting in shikantaza. Mike From: Bill! BillSmart@ To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 11:24 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi àMike, I would describe it as something similar to being filled with the Holy Spirit and giving yourself over COMPLETELY to God's will. Bill! (not Joe or Bill) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@ wrote: Joe, How would you describe shikantaza to someone from a religion such as Christianity? Mike From: Joe desert_woodworker@ To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 3:24 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi ÃâàShikantaza is just keeping empty. In the Zen sect. I'll say no more! --Joe ED seacrofter001@ wrote: Mike, Is shikantaza insight meditation, absorption meditation or both? Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
Bill!, I'd rather be possessed by 'me' than a spook in a white sheet who did it with a married man's wife (Where do Christians get there morals from again?..). Mike Ps Oops! That wasn't a dig at you, Merle :) From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 4 August 2012, 2:31 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi Mike, Actually that mean YOU have bee DIS-POSSESSED...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@... wrote: Bill! Oh my god! Does that mean I'm possessed?? Mike 666 From: Bill! BillSmart@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 4 August 2012, 1:57 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi  Mike, To be 'filled' with the Holy Spirit means there is no longer any room for your 'self'. Then there is no longer any self/other dualism. There is only Buddha Nature. Just THIS! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@ wrote: Bill! The (Holy) ghost in the machine, perhaps? I dunno about your description, tho. Isn't to be filled a bit different from 'empty'? Plus, when I hear those happy clappy born-agains say they're filled with the Holy Spirit, they seem quite a different animal from a Zen practioner sitting in shikantaza. Mike From: Bill! BillSmart@ To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 11:24 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi  Mike, I would describe it as something similar to being filled with the Holy Spirit and giving yourself over COMPLETELY to God's will. Bill! (not Joe or Bill) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@ wrote: Joe, How would you describe shikantaza to someone from a religion such as Christianity? Mike From: Joe desert_woodworker@ To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 3:24 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi  Shikantaza is just keeping empty. In the Zen sect. I'll say no more! --Joe ED seacrofter001@ wrote: Mike, Is shikantaza insight meditation, absorption meditation or both?
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
Mike, Good question... No. When doing shikantaza you are not working on or doing anything - just sitting, Just THIS! When you are working on a koan you are exercising your rational mind, hopefully to exhaustion. When that happens and your rational mind shuts down THEN you are doing shikantaza. As in the case I cited below it is when your rational mind starts up again and you come out of shikantaza, realize what just happened you may as I did, especially if it is for the first time, have a flood of emotions. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@... wrote: Bill! You were working on a koan in shikantaza? Mike From: Bill! BillSmart@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 4 August 2012, 2:11 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi  Mike and JMJM, I can tell you when I first experienced Buddha Nature (kensho) while working on the koan Mu I broke down and cried. I was sitting in the zendo with many others and started sobbing uncontrollably. Several of the attendant immediately assisted me and took me to another room where I could gather myself; and then I was quickly ushered into dokusan. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@ wrote: JMJM, I could be wrong, but if your colleague broke down and cried after being filled with the Holy Ghost, then I think at some point his sitting stopped being shikantaza, if indeed it ever was. My understanding is that there would be equanimity, awarenessàand just simple observation of what was happening if it was shikantaza. I'm sure one of our more experienced members will clarify the matter for us. Mike From: 覺å¦â¢Ã§Â²Â¾Ã¦ËŽ ï¼ËJMJMï¼Ⱐchan.jmjm@ To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Cc: Bill! BillSmart@ Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 16:53 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi àYes,àThat's exactly how one of our practitioner, John Ip, described his experience.àJohn is a devoted Christian for over 20 years.àLast month, he shared, instead of words words and words, after enhancing his physical state, the Holy Ghost comes into him and he broke down and cried. He practices in our Family Meditation program in our community library for about 5 months. Now he sits longer and longer everyday. I told him, Holy Spirit is called Dharmakaya in Buddhism.àSame energy, just different names.àAnd that is just the beginning. Many of our practitioners witnesses an explosion from their heart chakra.àThere were no fear. Our Teacher said, when there is white light from the Heart Chakra, then you have witness Buddha Nature.àMy sister-in-law witnesses white light every time she sits.àShe knows phenomena of previous generations of other practitioners and helps them to resolve many karma. As to Mike's statement that he can recognize but can not express is a perfect example that when we surpass our skandhas, or regular senses, we reach a wider state of awareness, far beyond we can describe by words, logic.àIt is direct, instant and right. Some discussions in this forum mixing up the description for the two states, one is limited and the other is wider, and initiated some discussion.àDepending on the scope and sensitivity of our awareness, the languages and dictionary are different.àOnly when we abandon our dictionary; experience; then could we witness the state of being of others.àDiscussion through words are very dangerous.àThus Chan is without words and transmitted in addition to teaching. When someday, whatever people say, we say ah, yes. without analyzing, debating, defense, then we are truly in each moment and live in sync with the wisdom and life force of the universe. Good Day and Thank you for reading this. _/\_ JM On 8/3/2012 3:24 AM, Bill! wrote: àMike, I would describe it as something similar to being filled with the Holy Spirit and giving yourself over COMPLETELY to God's will. Bill! (not Joe or Bill) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@ wrote: Joe, How would you describe shikantaza to someone from a religion such as Christianity? Mike From: Joe desert_woodworker@ To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 3:24 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi ÃâàShikantaza is just keeping empty. In the Zen sect. I'll say no more! --Joe ED seacrofter001@ wrote: Mike, Is shikantaza insight meditation, absorption meditation or both
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
Mike, You've hit upon the biggest objection I have to religions when you asked: Where do Christians get there morals from...? The problem is they get them from their religion. In the case of Christianity it is from (listed from best to worst IMO) Jesus's teachings, The Bible or their priest. They should be getting them from the Holy Ghost (Buddha Nature). You don't need a religion to experience the Holy Ghost or Buddha Nature. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@... wrote: Bill!, I'd rather be possessed by 'me' than a spook in a white sheet who did it with a married man's wife (Where do Christians get there morals from again?..). Mike Ps Oops! That wasn't a dig at you, Merle :) From: Bill! BillSmart@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 4 August 2012, 2:31 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi  Mike, Actually that mean YOU have bee DIS-POSSESSED...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@ wrote: Bill! Oh my god! Does that mean I'm possessed?? Mike 666 From: Bill! BillSmart@ To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 4 August 2012, 1:57 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi àMike, To be 'filled' with the Holy Spirit means there is no longer any room for your 'self'. Then there is no longer any self/other dualism. There is only Buddha Nature. Just THIS! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@ wrote: Bill! The (Holy) ghost in the machine, perhaps? I dunno about your description, tho. Isn't to be filled a bit different from 'empty'? Plus, when I hear those happy clappy born-agains say they're filled with the Holy Spirit, they seem quite a different animal from a Zen practioner sitting in shikantaza. Mike From: Bill! BillSmart@ To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 11:24 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi ÃâàMike, I would describe it as something similar to being filled with the Holy Spirit and giving yourself over COMPLETELY to God's will. Bill! (not Joe or Bill) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@ wrote: Joe, How would you describe shikantaza to someone from a religion such as Christianity? Mike From: Joe desert_woodworker@ To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 3:24 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàShikantaza is just keeping empty. In the Zen sect. I'll say no more! --Joe ED seacrofter001@ wrote: Mike, Is shikantaza insight meditation, absorption meditation or both? Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
Mike Absolutely - on all points! Mike From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 4 August 2012, 2:45 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi Mike, You've hit upon the biggest objection I have to religions when you asked: Where do Christians get there morals from...? The problem is they get them from their religion. In the case of Christianity it is from (listed from best to worst IMO) Jesus's teachings, The Bible or their priest. They should be getting them from the Holy Ghost (Buddha Nature). You don't need a religion to experience the Holy Ghost or Buddha Nature. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@... wrote: Bill!, I'd rather be possessed by 'me' than a spook in a white sheet who did it with a married man's wife (Where do Christians get there morals from again?..). Mike Ps Oops! That wasn't a dig at you, Merle :) From: Bill! BillSmart@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 4 August 2012, 2:31 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi  Mike, Actually that mean YOU have bee DIS-POSSESSED...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@ wrote: Bill! Oh my god! Does that mean I'm possessed?? Mike 666 From: Bill! BillSmart@ To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 4 August 2012, 1:57 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi  Mike, To be 'filled' with the Holy Spirit means there is no longer any room for your 'self'. Then there is no longer any self/other dualism. There is only Buddha Nature. Just THIS! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@ wrote: Bill! The (Holy) ghost in the machine, perhaps? I dunno about your description, tho. Isn't to be filled a bit different from 'empty'? Plus, when I hear those happy clappy born-agains say they're filled with the Holy Spirit, they seem quite a different animal from a Zen practioner sitting in shikantaza. Mike From: Bill! BillSmart@ To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 11:24 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi  Mike, I would describe it as something similar to being filled with the Holy Spirit and giving yourself over COMPLETELY to God's will. Bill! (not Joe or Bill) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@ wrote: Joe, How would you describe shikantaza to someone from a religion such as Christianity? Mike From: Joe desert_woodworker@ To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 3:24 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi ÃÆ'‚ Shikantaza is just keeping empty. In the Zen sect. I'll say no more! --Joe ED seacrofter001@ wrote: Mike, Is shikantaza insight meditation, absorption meditation or both?
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
Mike, I think their spirit -- the spirit that makes them so antsy -- is Dharma Joy. Or a reasonable facsimile: granted!, infringing upon Buddhist intellectual/non-intellectual property-rights, however. Ought to be a law... . --Joe-the-Indignant mike brown uerusuboyo@... wrote: Bill! The (Holy) ghost in the machine, perhaps? I dunno about your description, tho. Isn't to be filled a bit different from 'empty'? Plus, when I hear those happy clappy born-agains say they're filled with the Holy Spirit, they seem quite a different animal from a Zen practioner sitting in shikantaza. Mike Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
Joe, Thanks for the challenge. ;-) And well played. I see I by forcing your hand I got the chalice without the wine. Eventually, Father, samadhi comes on. Father, do you know what samadhi is? Of course, when there's no chalice to receive the wine. Mike From: Joe desert_woodwor...@yahoo.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 4 August 2012, 2:57 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi Mike, Thanks for the challenge. ;-) Neat question! Well, Father, shikantaza is a practice. In a way, it is a bit more like a result, though; do you know what I mean, Father? It's like when you go on your Jesuit retreats with your brethren, and, for a week or more, you contemplate The Sacred Heart of Jesus. Well, Father... do you know how, by, say, the 4th or 5th day, how you feel rather unable to grasp or practice the method anymore? And your Spiritual Director reminds you in Interview just to keep up the practice, no matter WHAT, but, nonetheless you are unable to grasp the usual method, and feel instead as if you are empty and comfortable, but not at all taking it easy? As if you truly have a Result?, that is, a state of mind that can maintain itself and carry you through the morning's or evening's contemplation? Well, that's not Shikantaza. That's something basically Human, which Shikantaza is also able to bring us to. Shikantaza, Father, is stopping the mind, but not by using force; and the second-half is allowing insight to come in while the mind is stopped. But, Father, this is a PRACTICE, and although I say it is in fact a bit like a RESULT, I mean that it is nonetheless a practice, and not a final state nor something you can abandon after a day or a decade. Nor can you begin your practice here! So we allow the mind to stop, simply by not following anything that arises. We give NO energy to anything. This is a lazy-man's method!, for sure; but only a very disciplined lazy man or Nun can do it. Just give no energy to anything. Let it all trail-off, like strains of Gregorian chants in the echo-y cathedral after the monks hit the final note. Just let it go. Then, watch, just watch. If anything arises, just let it go. Let it go. Keep letting it go. Give no energy, and no follow-up. Eventually, Father, samadhi comes on. Father, do you know what samadhi is? --Joe mike brown uerusuboyo@... wrote: Joe, How would you describe shikantaza to someone from a religion such as Christianity? Mike
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
Joe, Mathew 6:28 'Consider the lilies...' Blatant copyright theft. Off to Purgatory, or France, with them all! Mike From: Joe desert_woodwor...@yahoo.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 4 August 2012, 3:03 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi Mike, I think their spirit -- the spirit that makes them so antsy -- is Dharma Joy. Or a reasonable facsimile: granted!, infringing upon Buddhist intellectual/non-intellectual property-rights, however. Ought to be a law... . --Joe-the-Indignant mike brown uerusuboyo@... wrote: Bill! The (Holy) ghost in the machine, perhaps? I dunno about your description, tho. Isn't to be filled a bit different from 'empty'? Plus, when I hear those happy clappy born-agains say they're filled with the Holy Spirit, they seem quite a different animal from a Zen practioner sitting in shikantaza. Mike
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
Merle, Aww-w, I'm sure you don't mean to hassle Mike. I agree that some folks can find something alive in Xianity, but Xianity is a REVEALED tradition, a tradition by the BOOK. A tradition in a BOX! Granted, some folks can meditate or contemplate within Her, but they put themselves at risk vis-a-vis the Powers of the Church, doing so. The fate of the Gnostics is still ringing in the ears of most Christian Contemplatives. Even the modern and mild Centering-Prayer has its powerful and vocal detractors, today. Sheesh. This is why I had to leave behind my Catholic roots and Catholic desires, and why I formally and for all time became a Buddhist, Ch'an Sect, in Feb. 1979 in New York City. I had the help of Jesuits at Columbia. It was no arbitrary switch-er-oo. And again and again confirmed and re-affirmed. I think I take (re-take) the Precepts every decade. Just as I re-affirm vows of Divorce with my ex-. Make an honest woman of me, she said, DIVORCE me! ;-) We're still civil with each other; funny. --Joe Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: mike..meaning what?...do not be so quick to judge..there are christians and christians...just as there are buddhists and buddhists.. . not all folk who meditate and sit cross legged for hours waiting for the light they too are not the perfecto..you are so desiring to be Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
Bill, It's not like me to do so, but I urge caution, there. Lots of things can displace our familiar self. Not all of it is laudable. For some, the Holy Spirit might not be laudable. Especially if it was some reasonable (to us) facsimile which had us believe it was of-God, but not exact facsimile. We could be deluded, in other words. This is where a Zen teacher is needed, to test us. ;-) She shall also have to test us about this, the Just This you often mention. We may be vastly deluded there, TOO. You never know, you know. Submit a sample and be tested. ;-) --Joe Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Mike, To be 'filled' with the Holy Spirit means there is no longer any room for your 'self'. Then there is no longer any self/other dualism. There is only Buddha Nature. Just THIS! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
Dear Bill, Yes, yes indeed. This kind of purification is often so, so necessary. Even prerequisite to samadhi developing, and having it break down later to reveal awakening. We can only hope that the purification went to completion, which is total exhaustion, and then to the onset of laughter, which similarly exhausts one after an hour or so. If others intervene, often, the process is shut-down. I hope that did not happen! I was allowed to go outside, and spent hours out there in complete freedom, far from where anyone could hear or be disturbed. My Shifu knew it was coming, and suggested I go out, See the Bay; dress warmly! What a Heart. This was the first opening, surely the most memorable and complete. Shifu called it the old traditional thing: A Great Cry, followed by a Great Laugh. It was all Yoga, for the belly, breathing, and body, and burning of all the nerve endings. Chi, at work! But it took another two days for the raw body to cool, and for samadhi to come on, and then to break up suddenly, to reveal awakening. It was only then that the teacher congratulated me, and had the sangha congratulate me. Ma I-Chang also went through this, and we were somewhat 'cooperating-causes' for each other. He was a Radiology Technician in a NY hospital, and I was a Radio-Astronomer! He is my Chinese brother, since then. --Joe Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Mike and JMJM, I can tell you when I first experienced Buddha Nature (kensho) while working on the koan Mu I broke down and cried. I was sitting in the zendo with many others and started sobbing uncontrollably. Several of the attendant immediately assisted me and took me to another room where I could gather myself; and then I was quickly ushered into dokusan. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
Joe, Of course we can be deluded. I was merely answering the question from my experience and IMO of what the Christian equivalent to shikantaza would be. Filling/emptying are dualistic terms. I used them to describe something. That is all. Buddha Nature (and IMO Holy Ghost) are not dualistic, but they are talked about with dualistic language - like 'I am aware of Buddha Nature', or labels like 'Father, Son and Holy Ghost/Spirit'. These dualism don't overly concern me as long as they are not taken literally. The problem with Christianity (IMO) is that most Christians do take the Bible and it's account of Jesus' teachings absolutely literally. As far as testing, who is there that could apply that test? ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Joe desert_woodworker@... wrote: Bill, It's not like me to do so, but I urge caution, there. Lots of things can displace our familiar self. Not all of it is laudable. For some, the Holy Spirit might not be laudable. Especially if it was some reasonable (to us) facsimile which had us believe it was of-God, but not exact facsimile. We could be deluded, in other words. This is where a Zen teacher is needed, to test us. ;-) She shall also have to test us about this, the Just This you often mention. We may be vastly deluded there, TOO. You never know, you know. Submit a sample and be tested. ;-) --Joe Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Mike, To be 'filled' with the Holy Spirit means there is no longer any room for your 'self'. Then there is no longer any self/other dualism. There is only Buddha Nature. Just THIS! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
Howdy, Mike, Sheng Yen taught us that we should prostrate to people who give us a hard time. We should be most thankful to them. They remove our last traces of ego attachment (or something like that). --Joe mike brown uerusuboyo@... wrote: Bill!, I remember prostrating myself on the kitchen floor in gratitude to the Zen Patriarchs [snip] Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
Joe..no i am not hassling mike...just pointing out a reality...have you read thomas merton...? catholic priest...there you will find the buddha nature too... nice you and the ex still communicate cheers merle Merle, Aww-w, I'm sure you don't mean to hassle Mike. I agree that some folks can find something alive in Xianity, but Xianity is a REVEALED tradition, a tradition by the BOOK. A tradition in a BOX! Granted, some folks can meditate or contemplate within Her, but they put themselves at risk vis-a-vis the Powers of the Church, doing so. The fate of the Gnostics is still ringing in the ears of most Christian Contemplatives. Even the modern and mild Centering-Prayer has its powerful and vocal detractors, today. Sheesh. This is why I had to leave behind my Catholic roots and Catholic desires, and why I formally and for all time became a Buddhist, Ch'an Sect, in Feb. 1979 in New York City. I had the help of Jesuits at Columbia. It was no arbitrary switch-er-oo. And again and again confirmed and re-affirmed. I think I take (re-take) the Precepts every decade. Just as I re-affirm vows of Divorce with my ex-. Make an honest woman of me, she said, DIVORCE me! ;-) We're still civil with each other; funny. --Joe Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: mike..meaning what?...do not be so quick to judge..there are christians and christians...just as there are buddhists and buddhists.. . not all folk who meditate and sit cross legged for hours waiting for the light they too are not the perfecto..you are so desiring to be
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
Merle, Yep, I am a Thomas Merton complete-ist. Maybe more-so than old Father Louie himself. ;-) Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: Joe..no i am not hassling mike...just pointing out a reality...have you read thomas merton...? catholic priest...there you will find the buddha nature too... Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
Merle, Not in Mike's defense, but I'm guessing USA. ;-) --Giuseppe Luigi Federico M. (Joe) PS And I recommend the Salami, versus the baloney/balogna. Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: Â mike..which christians are you referring too?...you certainly have had a very poor experience with christians..where do you get this baloney from? merle Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
i have sobbed in a group whilst meditating... it made me think oh sweet jesus..what the f' am i doing this bunch of wankers.. . meditation for me is about becoming lighter and brighter freer and at peace..huh?... the wankers tried to pin me down... would not let me leave..i had to force my way out the door.. . no they were not christians they were searching for the pearl of enlightenment... for christ sake!. ..as if!. .merle Bill! You were working on a koan in shikantaza? Mike From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 4 August 2012, 2:11 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi Mike and JMJM, I can tell you when I first experienced Buddha Nature (kensho) while working on the koan Mu I broke down and cried. I was sitting in the zendo with many others and started sobbing uncontrollably. Several of the attendant immediately assisted me and took me to another room where I could gather myself; and then I was quickly ushered into dokusan. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@... wrote: JMJM, I could be wrong, but if your colleague broke down and cried after being filled with the Holy Ghost, then I think at some point his sitting stopped being shikantaza, if indeed it ever was. My understanding is that there would be equanimity, awareness and just simple observation of what was happening if it was shikantaza. I'm sure one of our more experienced members will clarify the matter for us. Mike From: 覺妙精明 （JMJM） chan.jmjm@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Cc: Bill! BillSmart@... Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 16:53 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi  Yes, That's exactly how one of our practitioner, John Ip, described his experience. John is a devoted Christian for over 20 years. Last month, he shared, instead of words words and words, after enhancing his physical state, the Holy Ghost comes into him and he broke down and cried. He practices in our Family Meditation program in our community library for about 5 months. Now he sits longer and longer everyday. I told him, Holy Spirit is called Dharmakaya in Buddhism. Same energy, just different names. And that is just the beginning. Many of our practitioners witnesses an explosion from their heart chakra. There were no fear. Our Teacher said, when there is white light from the Heart Chakra, then you have witness Buddha Nature. My sister-in-law witnesses white light every time she sits. She knows phenomena of previous generations of other practitioners and helps them to resolve many karma. As to Mike's statement that he can recognize but can not express is a perfect example that when we surpass our skandhas, or regular senses, we reach a wider state of awareness, far beyond we can describe by words, logic. It is direct, instant and right. Some discussions in this forum mixing up the description for the two states, one is limited and the other is wider, and initiated some discussion. Depending on the scope and sensitivity of our awareness, the languages and dictionary are different. Only when we abandon our dictionary; experience; then could we witness the state of being of others. Discussion through words are very dangerous. Thus Chan is without words and transmitted in addition to teaching. When someday, whatever people say, we say ah, yes. without analyzing, debating, defense, then we are truly in each moment and live in sync with the wisdom and life force of the universe. Good Day and Thank you for reading this. _/\_ JM On 8/3/2012 3:24 AM, Bill! wrote:  Mike, I would describe it as something similar to being filled with the Holy Spirit and giving yourself over COMPLETELY to God's will. Bill! (not Joe or Bill) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@ wrote: Joe, How would you describe shikantaza to someone from a religion such as Christianity? Mike From: Joe desert_woodworker@ To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 3:24 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi  Shikantaza is just keeping empty. In the Zen sect. I'll say no more! --Joe ED seacrofter001@ wrote: Mike, Is shikantaza insight meditation, absorption meditation or both?
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
good to hear joe...merle Merle, Yep, I am a Thomas Merton complete-ist. Maybe more-so than old Father Louie himself. ;-) Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: Joe..no i am not hassling mike...just pointing out a reality...have you read thomas merton...? catholic priest...there you will find the buddha nature too...
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
you betcha..america is the land of the weirdo christians... merle Merle, Not in Mike's defense, but I'm guessing USA. ;-) --Giuseppe Luigi Federico M. (Joe) PS And I recommend the Salami, versus the baloney/balogna. Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: Â mike..which christians are you referring too?...you certainly have had a very poor experience with christians..where do you get this baloney from? merle
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
what does an emotional free for all mean?. . sitting cross legged on a holy mat waiting for the light...merle I second Mike's statement! If we are going to use language, then let's at least get the terminology right. And to do that many times we have to talk about the terms we use to make sure we're talking about the same thing. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@... wrote: JMJM, Since you prefer to get deep into the muddy form of words.. Not at all. But I do like to know/clarify what it is that is being discussed or what it is I'm supposed to be practicing. If we are going to use language, then let's at least get the terminology right. Sitting with a clear mind is sitting with a clear mind - it's not an emotional free for all. Mike From: 覺妙精明 （JMJM） chan.jmjm@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Cc: mike brown uerusuboyo@... Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 22:28 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi  Oh Mike, When I say more, I mean more experience for John. It will take him sometime to be truly detached from forms and arrive at the middle way. Since you prefer to get deep into the muddy form of words Shigantaza is not what we practice. Historically Chan is the parent of zen. Is it possible that some of the authentic Chan practice is missing from zen? Yet... This kind of discussion does help anyone. What we need to do is not to poke at the difference in our mental understandings or description of practice. There is no dharma in words. Dharma as you have experienced, needs to be received by our Heart Chakra, directly, instantly without fear. Isn't that what Diamond Sutra continuously trying to tell us? Most of us are fearful of loosing whatever concepts of dharma we acquired. We need to let everyone relax, so to forget every thread of dharma in our mind. Open our Heart chakra and resonate with the wisdom of each moment. _/\_ jm On 8/3/2012 2:15 PM, mike brown wrote:  JMJM, I don't wish to sound like I'm demeaning John's experience, I'm very happy that he finally discovered something of importance to him, but you originally said he did more than just witness this event. Anything more is not shikantaza as I understand it. Sometimes we have to categorise. Shikantaza is not TM or bhakti yoga meditation. There are differences. Mike From: 覺妙精明 （JMJM） chan.jmjm@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 19:35 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi  Hi Mike, Thank you, but there is no need to categorize. John was merely grateful that he finally witness the description of love, grace and holy spirit. I am sure John will experience the rest as he continue to purify his body and mind, just like the rest of us. jm On 8/3/2012 10:34 AM, mike brown wrote:  JMJM, I could be wrong, but if your colleague broke down and cried after being filled with the Holy Ghost, then I think at some point his sitting stopped being shikantaza, if indeed it ever was. My understanding is that there would be equanimity, awareness and just simple observation of what was happening if it was shikantaza. I'm sure one of our more experienced members will clarify the matter for us. Mike From: 覺妙精明 （JMJM） chan.jmjm@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Cc: Bill! BillSmart@... Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 16:53 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi  Yes, That's exactly how one of our practitioner, John Ip, described his experience. John is a devoted Christian for over 20 years. Last month, he shared, instead of words words and words, after enhancing his physical state, the Holy Ghost comes into him and he broke down and cried. He practices in our Family Meditation program in our community library for about 5 months. Now he sits longer and longer everyday. I told him, Holy Spirit is called Dharmakaya in Buddhism. Same energy, just different names. And that is just the beginning. Many of our practitioners witnesses an explosion from their heart chakra. There were no fear. Our Teacher said, when there is white light from the Heart Chakra, then you
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
Hi Bill, Thank you for your sharing. Many of our practitioners experience this, a kind with no joy no sadness. We labeled it as home bound or found home. :-) jm On 8/3/2012 6:11 PM, Bill! wrote: Mike and JMJM, I can tell you when I first experienced Buddha Nature (kensho) while working on the koan Mu I broke down and cried. I was sitting in the zendo with many others and started sobbing uncontrollably. Several of the attendant immediately assisted me and took me to another room where I could gather myself; and then I was quickly ushered into dokusan. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@... wrote: JMJM, I could be wrong, but if your colleague broke down and cried after being filled with the Holy Ghost, then I think at some point his sitting stopped being shikantaza, if indeed it ever was. My understanding is that there would be equanimity, awareness and just simple observation of what was happening if it was shikantaza. I'm sure one of our more experienced members will clarify the matter for us. Mike From: 覺妙精明 （JMJM） chan.jmjm@... To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com Cc: Bill! BillSmart@... Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 16:53 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi  Yes, That's exactly how one of our practitioner, John Ip, described his experience. John is a devoted Christian for over 20 years. Last month, he shared, instead of words words and words, after enhancing his physical state, the Holy Ghost comes into him and he broke down and cried. He practices in our Family Meditation program in our community library for about 5 months. Now he sits longer and longer everyday. I told him, Holy Spirit is called Dharmakaya in Buddhism. Same energy, just different names. And that is just the beginning. Many of our practitioners witnesses an explosion from their heart chakra. There were no fear. Our Teacher said, when there is white light from the Heart Chakra, then you have witness Buddha Nature. My sister-in-law witnesses white light every time she sits. She knows phenomena of previous generations of other practitioners and helps them to resolve many karma. As to Mike's statement that he can recognize but can not express is a perfect example that when we surpass our skandhas, or regular senses, we reach a wider state of awareness, far beyond we can describe by words, logic. It is direct, instant and right. Some discussions in this forum mixing up the description for the two states, one is limited and the other is wider, and initiated some discussion. Depending on the scope and sensitivity of our awareness, the languages and dictionary are different. Only when we abandon our dictionary; experience; then could we witness the state of being of others. Discussion through words are very dangerous. Thus Chan is without words and transmitted in addition to teaching. When someday, whatever people say, we say ah, yes. without analyzing, debating, defense, then we are truly in each moment and live in sync with the wisdom and life force of the universe. Good Day and Thank you for reading this. _/\_ JM On 8/3/2012 3:24 AM, Bill! wrote:  Mike, I would describe it as something similar to being filled with the Holy Spirit and giving yourself over COMPLETELY to God's will. Bill! (not Joe or Bill) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@ wrote: Joe, How would you describe shikantaza to someone from a religion such as Christianity? Mike From: Joe desert_woodworker@ To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 3:24 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi  Shikantaza is just keeping empty. In the Zen sect. I'll say no more! --Joe ED seacrofter001@ wrote: Mike, Is shikantaza insight meditation, absorption meditation or both?
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
Kris, Quoting Bodhidharma to refute the place of samadhi/dhyana (jhana) is a bit like cross-examing Mitt Romney in the hope he'll say something constructive about free health care. Anyway, ... Question: What is a demon mind? Answer: Closing the eyes [in the cross-legged sitting posture] and entering samadhi. Question: [What if] I gather the mind into dhyana so that it does not move? Answer: This is bondage samadhi. It is useless. The sutras attributable to Buddha mention mindfulness about a dozen times. Loving-kindness about a 100 times. Jhanas over a 1000 times. Staring at a wall 0 times. This holds even for the four dhyanas, each of which is merely one stage of quiescence from which you will return to disturbance again. Yes, exactly like zazen. They are not to be valued. Not in themselves, no. But as a support to insight wisdom they are almost indispensable. These are created dharmas, It's funny how the 4 jhanas follow the same method for everyone to enter them, and when they are entered they follow the same pattern from first into second, from second into third etc. This is true for everyone (the well-practiced adept can move thru them quicker and enter them almost at will). Without the hindrances, the mind moves to an ever still and pure state until the mind disappears all together. dharmas that will be destroyed again, Of course! And this is exactly the insight that wisdom comes from. All arises and passes. We experience the kind of bliss in jhanas that cannot be experienced in day to day life. We use mindfulness to penetrate the meaning of craving experientially - not just intellectually. not ultimate Dharma. Ultimate Dharma just is. Bohdidharma, at least in this quote, seems to be mistaking the raft for the shore. If you can understand that intrinsically there is neither quiescence nor disturbance, then you will be able to exist of yourself. I much prefer Dogen's 'To study the way is to study the self; to study the self is to forget the self; to forget the self is to be enlightened by the 1 things.. To study the self is exactly what Vipassana does. If you remember in a recent post I said that to understand suffering is to realise that it is not suffering that disappears, but the self that disappears. The one who is not drawn into quiescence and disturbance is the man of spirit. Further: If one is capable of not seizing on interpretations, not creating the mind of delusion, and not esteeming profound knowledge, then he will be a peaceful person. If there is one dharma to be esteemed or valued, this dharma will be the one most capable of binding and killing you, and you will fall into having mind. This is an unreliable state of affairs. I was listening to a video talk by the late Ayya Khema and she said that after teaching hundreds of people the jhanas, she doesn't know of one person who has become addicted to jhana meditation, or values them higher than insight wisdom. - Bodhidharma Antholgy, pg 35. Buddha rocks! Mike From: Kristopher Grey k...@kgrey.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, 2 August 2012, 20:49 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi I'm not one to quote often, but came across this bit on samadhi today: Question: What is a demon mind? Answer: Closing the eyes [in the cross-legged sitting posture] and entering samadhi. Question: [What if] I gather the mind into dhyana so that it does not move? Answer: This is bondage samadhi. It is useless. This holds even for the four dhyanas, each of which is merely one stage of quiescence from which you will return to disturbance again. They are not to be valued. These are created dharmas, dharmas that will be destroyed again, not ultimate Dharma. If you can understand that intrinsically there is neither quiescence nor disturbance, then you will be able to exist of yourself. The one who is not drawn into quiescence and disturbance is the man of spirit. Further: If one is capable of not seizing on interpretations, not creating the mind of delusion, and not esteeming profound knowledge, then he will be a peaceful person. If there is one dharma to be esteemed or valued, this dharma will be the one most capable of binding and killing you, and you will fall into having mind. This is an unreliable state of affairs. - Bodhidharma Antholgy, pg 35.
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
Kris, This by Bhante Gunaratana: Insight cannot be practiced while absorbed in jhana, since insight meditation requires investigation and observation, which are impossible when the mind is immersed in one-pointed absorption. But after emerging from the jhana, the mind is cleared of the hindrances, and the stillness and clarity that then result conduce to precise, penetrating insight. [my italics] I hope anyone can see that this is what I've been saying all along. Mike Ps I don't need a lecture on the futility of 'hope' as a wish projected into the future (which doesn't exist) yada yada yada... ; ) From: mike brown uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, 2 August 2012, 22:31 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi Kris, Quoting Bodhidharma to refute the place of samadhi/dhyana (jhana) is a bit like cross-examing Mitt Romney in the hope he'll say something constructive about free health care. Anyway, ... Question: What is a demon mind? Answer: Closing the eyes [in the cross-legged sitting posture] and entering samadhi. Question: [What if] I gather the mind into dhyana so that it does not move? Answer: This is bondage samadhi. It is useless. The sutras attributable to Buddha mention mindfulness about a dozen times. Loving-kindness about a 100 times. Jhanas over a 1000 times. Staring at a wall 0 times. This holds even for the four dhyanas, each of which is merely one stage of quiescence from which you will return to disturbance again. Yes, exactly like zazen. They are not to be valued. Not in themselves, no. But as a support to insight wisdom they are almost indispensable. These are created dharmas, It's funny how the 4 jhanas follow the same method for everyone to enter them, and when they are entered they follow the same pattern from first into second, from second into third etc. This is true for everyone (the well-practiced adept can move thru them quicker and enter them almost at will). Without the hindrances, the mind moves to an ever still and pure state until the mind disappears all together. dharmas that will be destroyed again, Of course! And this is exactly the insight that wisdom comes from. All arises and passes. We experience the kind of bliss in jhanas that cannot be experienced in day to day life. We use mindfulness to penetrate the meaning of craving experientially - not just intellectually. not ultimate Dharma. Ultimate Dharma just is. Bohdidharma, at least in this quote, seems to be mistaking the raft for the shore. If you can understand that intrinsically there is neither quiescence nor disturbance, then you will be able to exist of yourself. I much prefer Dogen's 'To study the way is to study the self; to study the self is to forget the self; to forget the self is to be enlightened by the 1 things.. To study the self is exactly what Vipassana does. If you remember in a recent post I said that to understand suffering is to realise that it is not suffering that disappears, but the self that disappears. The one who is not drawn into quiescence and disturbance is the man of spirit. Further: If one is capable of not seizing on interpretations, not creating the mind of delusion, and not esteeming profound knowledge, then he will be a peaceful person. If there is one dharma to be esteemed or valued, this dharma will be the one most capable of binding and killing you, and you will fall into having mind. This is an unreliable state of affairs. I was listening to a video talk by the late Ayya Khema and she said that after teaching hundreds of people the jhanas, she doesn't know of one person who has become addicted to jhana meditation, or values them higher than insight wisdom. - Bodhidharma Antholgy, pg 35. Buddha rocks! Mike From: Kristopher Grey k...@kgrey.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, 2 August 2012, 20:49 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi I'm not one to quote often, but came across this bit on samadhi today: Question: What is a demon mind? Answer: Closing the eyes [in the cross-legged sitting posture] and entering samadhi. Question: [What if] I gather the mind into dhyana so that it does not move? Answer: This is bondage samadhi. It is useless. This holds even for the four dhyanas, each of which is merely one stage of quiescence from which you will return to disturbance again. They are not to be valued. These are created dharmas, dharmas that will be destroyed again, not ultimate Dharma. If you can understand that intrinsically there is neither quiescence nor disturbance, then you will be able to exist of yourself. The one who is not drawn into quiescence and disturbance is the man of spirit. Further: If one is capable of not seizing on interpretations, not creating the mind of delusion, and not esteeming profound knowledge, then he will be a peaceful person
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
Mike, Is shikantaza insight meditation, absorption meditation or both? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@... wrote: Kris, This by Bhante Gunaratana: Insight cannot be practiced while absorbed in jhana, since insight meditation requires investigation and observation, which are impossible when the mind is immersed in one-pointed absorption. But after emerging from the jhana, the mind is cleared of the hindrances, and the stillness and clarity that then result conduce to precise, penetrating insight. [my italics] I hope anyone can see that this is what I've been saying all along. Mike Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
ED, I'd say it's neither. To me, in shikentaza there is no object at all (Ccompared to vipassana where the breath or bodily sensations might be the object). There is awareness in shikentaza, and this in a very, very subtle way could be seen as an object of meditation (and so somewhat like vipassana), but in this awareness their is no analysis, clinging or aversion to what comes into the awareness. If you do analyse, cling or feel aversion to anything (thoughts, feelings, any of the 5 hindrances etc) you recognise that and let them go. There will eventually be longish periods of having a clear mind where you are fully present. In insight meditation you do more than just bring your awareness to something (although you only do that in samatha (tranquility) meditation where you only bring awareness on to the object of meditation, like the breath, but don't analyse it). In insight meditation (Vipassana) you bring your awareness to a bodily sensation, say, and note what is happening to the body/mind (craving - aversion) and so see into one, two or three of the '3 Characteristics' (impermanence, suffering, non-self ) which Buddha says leads to Wisdom and Liberation. I think shikentaza seems to be quite conducive to insight into non-self more than it does to impermanence and suffering. Mike Quote from: soma on Sunday 28 November 2010, 09:36 PM In shikantaza there is no object at all, or rather, awareness itself is the object in a way but you make no effort to notice awareness, you are just like the sky and whatever passes through your awareness are like the clouds passing in the sky. You notice the clouds but do not cling analyze or feel any aversion to them, and if you do cling, analyze or feel aversion you know that too. It is really vipassana but the subtlest form of vipassana because you have no objects. Your only task is to be fully present and awake and to let the clouds come and go. Vipassana is also a pretty broad label that includes many different styles. However, as far as I can tell, it is not Vipassana if you merely bringe awareness to something. (you may simply be practicing concentration/shamatha---something which is quite good to do!). What makes your practice Vipassana is that you are seeing into at least one of the three characteristics that the Buddha suggested leads to liberation: (1) impermanence/change, (2) non-identification, (3) suffering. I think it is safe to say that if you are cultivating awareness of anything, and you are seeing into one of those characteristics, then you are practicing vipassana. With that in mind, you can see how it is possible to practice Zazen in a way that makes it Vipassana. In fact, I think the object-less approach especially lends itself to insights into No-Self. Its no coincidence that many Zen teachers emphasize this aspect of the practice. I also think that certain types of traditional Vipassana practices can be quite similar to Zazen. For example, some vipassana teachers advise students to cultivate choiceless awareness in which they allow their awareness to rest spaciously, and then observe anything that comes into their awareness. This type of practice can be quite open, and encompassing and feel much like shikantaza. I hope this helps! From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, 2 August 2012, 23:54 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi Mike, Is shikantaza insight meditation, absorption meditation or both? --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown uerusuboyo@... wrote: Kris, This by Bhante Gunaratana: Insight cannot be practiced while absorbed in jhana, since insight meditation requires investigation and observation, which are impossible when the mind is immersed in one-pointed absorption. But after emerging from the jhana, the mind is cleared of the hindrances, and the stillness and clarity that then result conduce to precise, penetrating insight. [my italics] I hope anyone can see that this is what I've been saying all along. Mike
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
There was no refutation, no saying what samadhi is or isn't, only a clear warning about mounting a defense of it's value. One you clearly missed in your rush to defend it. You may refute all you like, I was simply sharing something. Your conversation with a dead man, is interesting though... KG On 8/2/2012 5:31 PM, mike brown wrote: Kris, Quoting Bodhidharma to refute the place of samadhi/dhyana (jhana) is a bit like cross-examing Mitt Romney in the hope he'll say something constructive about free health care. Anyway, ... Question: What is a demon mind? Answer: Closing the eyes [in the cross-legged sitting posture] and entering samadhi. Question: [What if] I gather the mind into dhyana so that it does not move? Answer: This is bondage samadhi. It is useless. The sutras attributable to Buddha mention mindfulness about a dozen times. Loving-kindness about a 100 times. Jhanas over a 1000 times. Staring at a wall 0 times. This holds even for the four dhyanas, each of which is merely one stage of quiescence from which you will return to disturbance again. Yes, exactly like zazen. They are not to be valued. Not in themselves, no. But as a support to insight wisdom they are almost indispensable. These are created dharmas, It's funny how the 4 jhanas follow the same method for everyone to enter them, and when they are entered they follow the same pattern from first into second, from second into third etc. This is true for everyone (the well-practiced adept can move thru them quicker and enter them almost at will). Without the hindrances, the mind moves to an ever still and pure state until the mind disappears all together. dharmas that will be destroyed again, Of course! And this is exactly the insight that wisdom comes from. All arises and passes. We experience the kind of bliss in jhanas that cannot be experienced in day to day life. We use mindfulness to penetrate the meaning of craving experientially - not just intellectually. not ultimate Dharma. Ultimate Dharma just is. Bohdidharma, at least in this quote, seems to be mistaking the raft for the shore. If you can understand that intrinsically there is neither quiescence nor disturbance, then you will be able to exist of yourself. I much prefer Dogen's 'To study the way is to study the self; to study the self is to forget the self; to forget the self is to be /enlightened by the 1/ things.. To study the self is exactly what Vipassana does. If you remember in a recent post I said that to understand suffering is to realise that it is not suffering that disappears, but the self that disappears. The one who is not drawn into quiescence and disturbance is the man of spirit. Further: If one is capable of not seizing on interpretations, not creating the mind of delusion, and not esteeming profound knowledge, then he will be a peaceful person. If there is one dharma to be esteemed or valued, this dharma will be the one most capable of binding and killing you, and you will fall into having mind. This is an unreliable state of affairs. I was listening to a video talk by the late Ayya Khema and she said that after teaching hundreds of people the jhanas, she doesn't know of one person who has become addicted to jhana meditation, or values them higher than insight wisdom. - Bodhidharma Antholgy, pg 35. Buddha rocks! Mike *From:* Kristopher Grey k...@kgrey.com *To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Thursday, 2 August 2012, 20:49 *Subject:* Re: [Zen] Samadhi I'm not one to quote often, but came across this bit on samadhi today: Question: What is a demon mind? Answer: Closing the eyes [in the cross-legged sitting posture] and entering samadhi. Question: [What if] I gather the mind into dhyana so that it does not move? Answer: This is bondage samadhi. It is useless. This holds even for the four dhyanas, each of which is merely one stage of quiescence from which you will return to disturbance again. They are not to be valued. These are created dharmas, dharmas that will be destroyed again, not ultimate Dharma. If you can understand that intrinsically there is neither quiescence nor disturbance, then you will be able to exist of yourself. The one who is not drawn into quiescence and disturbance is the man of spirit. Further: If one is capable of not seizing on interpretations, not creating the mind of delusion, and not esteeming profound knowledge, then he will be a peaceful person. If there is one dharma to be esteemed or valued, this dharma will be the one most capable of binding and killing you, and you will fall into having mind. This is an unreliable state of affairs. - Bodhidharma Antholgy, pg 35.
Re: [Zen] Samadhi
I hope the irony of using a quote as an example of what you've been saying all along isn't lost on anyone either. KG On 8/2/2012 5:42 PM, mike brown wrote: Kris, This by Bhante Gunaratana: Insight cannot be practiced while absorbed in jhana, since insight meditation requires investigation and observation, which are impossible when the mind is immersed in one-pointed absorption. But after emerging from the jhana, the mind is cleared of the hindrances, and the stillness and clarity that then result conduce to precise, penetrating insight. [my italics] I hope anyone can see that this is what I've been saying all along. Mike P
