Re: [Zen] god
Merle, Why am I "too proud and arrogant" not to believe in a god? I see no evidence, or even a need, for a god. Or is the god you talk about something other than an omniscient, omnipotent being such as 'energy' 'love' or 'Tao' etc? Mike From: Merle Lester To: "Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com" Sent: Tuesday, 28 August 2012, 8:12 Subject: [Zen] god and "we all live in a yellow submarine" and it is the imagination of god .. .. we fool ourselves to think we are more than that we are TOO proud and arrogant to believe that we know no god. ..when we are part and parcel of the very essence of god.. . nothing more nothing less.. .lest we forget. .merle Merle www.wix.com/merlewiitpom/1 AND GOD SAID, LET THERE BE A FIRMAMENT IN THE MIDST OF THE WATERS, AND LET IT DIVIDE THE WATERS FROM THE WATERS. AND GOD MADE THE FIRMAMENT, ANDDIVIDED THE WATERS WHICH WERE UNDER THE FIRMAMENT FROM THE WATERS WHICH WERE ABOVE THE FIRMAMENT: AND IT WAS SO. AND GOD CALLED THE FIRMAMENT HEAVEN.
Re: [Zen] god
mike...why not call tao...etc.."god".?? merle Merle, Why am I "too proud and arrogant" not to believe in a god? I see no evidence, or even a need, for a god. Or is the god you talk about something other than an omniscient, omnipotent being such as 'energy' 'love' or 'Tao' etc? Mike From: Merle Lester To: "Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com" Sent: Tuesday, 28 August 2012, 8:12 Subject: [Zen] god and "we all live in a yellow submarine" and it is the imagination of god .. .. we fool ourselves to think we are more than that we are TOO proud and arrogant to believe that we know no god. ..when we are part and parcel of the very essence of god.. . nothing more nothing less.. .lest we forget. .merle Merle www.wix.com/merlewiitpom/1 AND GOD SAID, LET THERE BE A FIRMAMENT IN THE MIDST OF THE WATERS, AND LET IT DIVIDE THE WATERS FROM THE WATERS. AND GOD MADE THE FIRMAMENT, ANDDIVIDED THE WATERS WHICH WERE UNDER THE FIRMAMENT FROM THE WATERS WHICH WERE ABOVE THE FIRMAMENT: AND IT WAS SO. AND GOD CALLED THE FIRMAMENT HEAVEN.
Re: [Zen] god
I also do not know nor have ever experienced any god. I've experienced things I can't explain, but I don't call those 'god' or the result of a god..Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown wrote: > > Merle, > > Why am I "too proud and arrogant" not to believe in a god? I see no evidence, > or even a need, for a god. Or is the god you talk about something other than > an omniscient, omnipotent being such as 'energy' 'love' or 'Tao' etc? > > > Mike > > > > > > > From: Merle Lester > To: "Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com" > Sent: Tuesday, 28 August 2012, 8:12 > Subject: [Zen] god > > >  > > > >  > and "we all live in a yellow submarine" and it is the imagination of god .. > .. we fool ourselves to think we are more than that  >  we are TOO >  proud and arrogant to believe that we know no god. > > ..when we are part and parcel of the very essence of god.. > > . nothing more nothing less.. > > .lest we forget. > > .merle >  > Merle > www.wix.com/merlewiitpom/1 > > > >  > > > > > > >  >  > AND GOD SAID, > LET THERE BE A > FIRMAMENT IN THE MIDST OF THE WATERS, > AND LET IT DIVIDE THE WATERS FROM THE > WATERS. > AND GOD MADE THE FIRMAMENT, > ANDDIVIDED THE WATERS WHICH > WERE UNDER THE FIRMAMENT FROM THE WATERS WHICH WERE ABOVE THE FIRMAMENT: > AND > IT WAS SO. > AND GOD CALLED THE FIRMAMENT HEAVEN. > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] God
relax suresh...stop the mind games..relax...and as joe says practice...merle Dear Sirs, For last few days. I was wondering whether there can be any god at all, I being born Hindu Brahmin, keep going to temples, and hearing all those discourses, Bhajans, etc., and wanted to see the god right in front of my eyes. But that did not happened so far. May be I might have imagined and brought those image right in front of my closed eyes, but that is not the god. After reading JK and OSHO, I wondered what the truth is. Ramana had mixed teachings. He says self is all, and self is god or self is guru. At one place on dissolution, there exist only brahman, and not god, so god is the product of maya. Now what is god? Is god Shiva or Vishnu? There are group of saints who has seen god as Shiva, and there are group of saints who has seen god as Vishnu. And there are other saints who has seen god in different names and forms. In recent days, Ramakrishna Paramahamsa claimed to have seen god has Kali. Ramana states god is in heart cave just like shivalinga. Now those who claim god in some form are highly intelligent and done great virtues. Now Buddha maintained a neutral state, neither deny god, nor accept god, by not speaking about god. The Atheist who deny god, mainly shows the inequality of the world, such as some are rich and some are poor. And many who are doing bad deeds, live happily and those who always does good deeds live in miserable condition. If god would have been there, who is supposed to be full of love, why he has not given good life for those who does good deeds? For this inequality there is one answer that is Karma. Those who did good karmas in past life, now are enjoying and those who did bad karmas in the past life are suffering. But those who are in good living condition, why haven’t learnt in their past life not to do any bad karmas now, because they only cause suffering to others. Most of the Suffering or happiness is caused by human beings alone even though nature also plays role here, science states even the suffering caused by nature is also in turn by human beings only, because of his unintelligent acts with nature. Then why these human beings haven’t learnt to be happy while living on this earth? Then the answer is selfishness. Again this selfishness is cause of ignorance. The ignorance is that human beings doesn’t learn that my happiness is depends on your happiness. If I want to be happy, then I have to make you happy, then only my happiness is not disturbed by you. So human beings have to learn the principle of sharing. But this sharing is not an easy thing for human beings. Why? Because unconsciously we believe that by sharing our happiness diminishes. So we always like to possess more. Common belief is that if one possesses more, than more happier he will be. That possession can be of anything, it may be of wealth, it may be of knowledge, it may be of people. And this desire to possess has no limit. The rich want to become more rich. The knowledgeable person wants to become more knowledgeable. The person who controls large crowd of people, want to establish his control in much larger crowd. So in nutshell the human mind do not mind to possess if it can possess the universe also. Who will like to possess? To possess something, one need to have space. To possess more rich wealth, one need more space. To possess more knowledge, one needs to have more space in brain. So this desire to possess rises from the emptiness of oneself. Only empty can possess. So the self is empty. So the self is empty of all visible forms. Can these forms fill this emptiness completely, so that there is no more space to possess anymore, and hence fulfilled? Since when fulfilled, no desire to possess will raise and hence sharing become easy and hence human beings don’t suffer. Now I see from the above arguments, there are two kinds exist, that is forms and emptiness. Emptiness is self, i.e consciousness which is empty of all visible forms and the forms. Emptiness is still non-moving, whereas forms move. Which is the origin of what? Is emptiness created form or form created emptiness? For example the form suresh body was not there before, now present and then some time later it will not be there. All forms appear some time and later disappear, so all forms have to be from this emptiness. So emptiness is the origin, present and ending. Since emptiness creates forms, it is not empty, but full of something, it has potential to create forms, play with it and destroy it. This emptiness or this consciousness is neither yours nor mine, which means it is not separated by the forms. Forms don’t possess emptiness. Even thought is form. Emptiness possesses form. Moment a form is created by the emptiness, then it is subjected to law. Like moment a baby is born it is subject to environmental factors surrounded by it, since there are already forms created. Now what is god? Is emptiness or th
Re: [Zen] God
Merle,I half agree and disagree. I think it's good for us to contemplate these kind of issues from time to time and then thru diligent practice the 'answers' can be realised. For example, do you blindly accept the existence of God or do you also use reason? I would agree that it is only thru experiential wisdom that these kind of questions will be resolved - usually in the form of no longer needing to ask such questions of ourselves - but there have been some great thinkers from the jnana school of yoga, too. I think Suresh may have had such exposure.MikeSent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] God
mike... indeed it is good..and so we do at the end of the day...you cannot reason the existence of god.. god is god is god... merle Merle, I half agree and disagree. I think it's good for us to contemplate these kind of issues from time to time and then thru diligent practice the 'answers' can be realised. For example, do you blindly accept the existence of God or do you also use reason? I would agree that it is only thru experiential wisdom that these kind of questions will be resolved - usually in the form of no longer needing to ask such questions of ourselves - but there have been some great thinkers from the jnana school of yoga, too. I think Suresh may have had such exposure. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester ; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com ; Subject: Re: [Zen] God Sent: Fri, Jun 14, 2013 11:32:35 AM relax suresh...stop the mind games..relax...and as joe says practice...merle Dear Sirs, For last few days. I was wondering whether there can be any god at all, I being born Hindu Brahmin, keep going to temples, and hearing all those discourses, Bhajans, etc., and wanted to see the god right in front of my eyes. But that did not happened so far. May be I might have imagined and brought those image right in front of my closed eyes, but that is not the god. After reading JK and OSHO, I wondered what the truth is. Ramana had mixed teachings. He says self is all, and self is god or self is guru. At one place on dissolution, there exist only brahman, and not god, so god is the product of maya. Now what is god? Is god Shiva or Vishnu? There are group of saints who has seen god as Shiva, and there are group of saints who has seen god as Vishnu. And there are other saints who has seen god in different names and forms. In recent days, Ramakrishna Paramahamsa claimed to have seen god has Kali. Ramana states god is in heart cave just like shivalinga. Now those who claim god in some form are highly intelligent and done great virtues. Now Buddha maintained a neutral state, neither deny god, nor accept god, by not speaking about god. The Atheist who deny god, mainly shows the inequality of the world, such as some are rich and some are poor. And many who are doing bad deeds, live happily and those who always does good deeds live in miserable condition. If god would have been there, who is supposed to be full of love, why he has not given good life for those who does good deeds? For this inequality there is one answer that is Karma. Those who did good karmas in past life, now are enjoying and those who did bad karmas in the past life are suffering. But those who are in good living condition, why haven’t learnt in their past life not to do any bad karmas now, because they only cause suffering to others. Most of the Suffering or happiness is caused by human beings alone even though nature also plays role here, science states even the suffering caused by nature is also in turn by human beings only, because of his unintelligent acts with nature. Then why these human beings haven’t learnt to be happy while living on this earth? Then the answer is selfishness. Again this selfishness is cause of ignorance. The ignorance is that human beings doesn’t learn that my happiness is depends on your happiness. If I want to be happy, then I have to make you happy, then only my happiness is not disturbed by you. So human beings have to learn the principle of sharing. But this sharing is not an easy thing for human beings. Why? Because unconsciously we believe that by sharing our happiness diminishes. So we always like to possess more. Common belief is that if one possesses more, than more happier he will be. That possession can be of anything, it may be of wealth, it may be of knowledge, it may be of people. And this desire to possess has no limit. The rich want to become more rich. The knowledgeable person wants to become more knowledgeable. The person who controls large crowd of people, want to establish his control in much larger crowd. So in nutshell the human mind do not mind to possess if it can possess the universe also. Who will like to possess? To possess something, one need to have space. To possess more rich wealth, one need more space. To possess more knowledge, one needs to have more space in brain. So this desire to possess rises from the emptiness of oneself. Only empty can possess. So the self is empty. So the self is empty of all visible forms. Can these forms fill this emptiness completely, so that there is no more space to possess anymore, and hence fulfilled? Since when fulfilled, no desire to possess will raise and hence sharing become easy and hence human beings don’t suffer. Now I see from the above arguments, there are two kinds exist, that is forms and emptiness. Emptiness is self, i.e consciousness which is empty of all visible forms and the forms. Emptiness is s
Re: [Zen] God
There is a new book out by Brad Warner about this topic called There Is No God and He is Everywhere. I am only on chapter 2 but it is interesting so far. The straw Gods that people argue against here (based I suppose on the media reports of extremist positions) are given short shrift, but the idea of God outside of our beliefs and thoughts is fleshed out. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jun 14, 2013 3:05 PM, "Merle Lester" wrote: > > > > mike... > > indeed it is good..and so we do > > at the end of the day...you cannot reason the existence of god.. > > god is god is god... > > merle > > > Merle, > > I half agree and disagree. I think it's good for us to contemplate these > kind of issues from time to time and then thru diligent practice the > 'answers' can be realised. For example, do you blindly accept the existence > of God or do you also use reason? I would agree that it is only thru > experiential wisdom that these kind of questions will be resolved - usually > in the form of no longer needing to ask such questions of ourselves - but > there have been some great thinkers from the jnana school of yoga, too. I > think Suresh may have had such exposure. > > Mike > > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > ------ > * From: * Merle Lester ; > * To: * Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com ; > * Subject: * Re: [Zen] God > * Sent: * Fri, Jun 14, 2013 11:32:35 AM > > > > relax suresh...stop the mind games..relax...and as joe says > practice...merle > Dear Sirs, > > For last few days. I was wondering whether there can be any god at > all, I being born Hindu Brahmin, keep going to temples, and hearing > all those discourses, Bhajans, etc., and wanted to see the god right > in front of my eyes. But that did not happened so far. May be I might > have imagined and brought those image right in front of my closed > eyes, but that is not the god. > > After reading JK and OSHO, I wondered what the truth is. > > Ramana had mixed teachings. He says self is all, and self is god or > self is guru. At one place on dissolution, there exist only brahman, > and not god, so god is the product of maya. > > Now what is god? > > Is god Shiva or Vishnu? There are group of saints who has seen god as > Shiva, and there are group of saints who has seen god as Vishnu. And > there are other saints who has seen god in different names and forms. > > In recent days, Ramakrishna Paramahamsa claimed to have seen god has > Kali. Ramana states god is in heart cave just like shivalinga. > > Now those who claim god in some form are highly intelligent and done > great virtues. > > Now Buddha maintained a neutral state, neither deny god, nor accept > god, by not speaking about god. > > The Atheist who deny god, mainly shows the inequality of the world, > such as some are rich and some are poor. And many who are doing bad > deeds, live happily and those who always does good deeds live in > miserable condition. If god would have been there, who is supposed to > be full of love, why he has not given good life for those who does > good deeds? > > For this inequality there is one answer that is Karma. Those who did > good karmas in past life, now are enjoying and those who did bad > karmas in the past life are suffering. > > But those who are in good living condition, why haven’t learnt in > their past life not to do any bad karmas now, because they only cause > suffering to others. > > Most of the Suffering or happiness is caused by human beings alone > even though nature also plays role here, science states even the > suffering caused by nature is also in turn by human beings only, > because of his unintelligent acts with nature. > > Then why these human beings haven’t learnt to be happy while living on > this earth? > > Then the answer is selfishness. Again this selfishness is cause of > ignorance. The ignorance is that human beings doesn’t learn that my > happiness is depends on your happiness. If I want to be happy, then I > have to make you happy, then only my happiness is not disturbed by > you. > > So human beings have to learn the principle of sharing. > > But this sharing is not an easy thing for human beings. Why? > > Because unconsciously we believe that by sharing our happiness diminishes. > > So we always like to possess more. Common belief is that if one > possesses more, than more happier he will be. > > That possession can be of anything, it may be of wealth, it may be of > knowledge, it may be of people. And this desire to possess has no > limit. > > The rich want to become more rich. The knowledgeable person wants to > become more knowledgeable. The p
Re: [Zen] God
yes indeed chris.. there are many preconceived ideas about god.. some are downright absurd... through a deeper understanding we can begin to shed light on "there is no god and he is everywhere. let us know how the reading goes merle There is a new book out by Brad Warner about this topic called There Is No God and He is Everywhere. I am only on chapter 2 but it is interesting so far. The straw Gods that people argue against here (based I suppose on the media reports of extremist positions) are given short shrift, but the idea of God outside of our beliefs and thoughts is fleshed out. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jun 14, 2013 3:05 PM, "Merle Lester" wrote: > > > > > mike... > > >indeed it is good..and so we do > > > at the end of the day...you cannot reason the existence of god.. > > >god is god is god... > > >merle > > > >Merle, > >I half agree and disagree. I think it's good for us to contemplate these kind >of issues from time to time and then thru diligent practice the 'answers' can >be realised. For example, do you blindly accept the existence of God or do you >also use reason? I would agree that it is only thru experiential wisdom that >these kind of questions will be resolved - usually in the form of no longer >needing to ask such questions of ourselves - but there have been some great >thinkers from the jnana school of yoga, too. I think Suresh may have had such >exposure. > >Mike > > >Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > > > > From: Merle Lester ; >To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com ; >Subject: Re: [Zen] God >Sent: Fri, Jun 14, 2013 11:32:35 AM > > > > > > relax suresh...stop the mind games..relax...and as joe says practice...merle >Dear Sirs, > >For last few days. I was wondering whether there can be any god at >all, I being born Hindu Brahmin, keep going to temples, and hearing >all those discourses, Bhajans, etc., and wanted to see the god right >in front of my eyes. But that did not happened so far. May be I might >have imagined and brought those image right in front of my closed >eyes, but that is not the god. > >After reading JK and OSHO, I wondered what the truth is. > >Ramana had mixed teachings. He says self is all, and self is god or >self is guru. At one place on dissolution, there exist only brahman, >and not god, so god is the product of maya. > >Now what is god? > >Is god Shiva or Vishnu? There are group of saints who has seen god as >Shiva, and there are group of saints who has seen god as Vishnu. And >there are other saints who has seen god in different names and forms. > >In recent days, Ramakrishna Paramahamsa claimed to have seen god has >Kali. Ramana states god is in heart cave just like shivalinga. > >Now those who claim god in some form are highly intelligent and done >great virtues. > >Now Buddha maintained a neutral state, neither deny god, nor accept >god, by not speaking about god. > >The Atheist who deny god, mainly shows the inequality of the world, >such as some are rich and some are poor. And many who are doing bad >deeds, live happily and those who always does good deeds live in >miserable condition. If god would have been there, who is supposed to >be full of love, why he has not given good life for those who does >good deeds? > >For this inequality there is one answer that is Karma. Those who did >good karmas in past life, now are enjoying and those who did bad >karmas in the past life are suffering. > >But those who are in good living condition, why haven’t learnt in >their past life not to do any bad karmas now, because they only cause >suffering to others. > >Most of the Suffering or happiness is caused by human beings alone >even though nature also plays role here, science states even the >suffering caused by nature is also in turn by human beings only, >because of his unintelligent acts with nature. > >Then why these human beings haven’t learnt to be happy while living on >this earth? > >Then the answer is selfishness. Again this selfishness is cause of >ignorance. The ignorance is that human beings doesn’t learn that my >happiness is depends on your happiness. If I want to be happy, then I >have to make you happy, then only my happiness is not disturbed by >you. > >So human beings have to learn the principle of sharing. > >But this sharing is not an easy thing for human beings. Why? > >Because unconsciously we believe that by sharing our happiness diminishes. > >So we always like to possess more. Common belief is that if one >possesses more, than more happier he will be. > >That possession can be of
Re: [Zen] God..mother or father?
What I tell my kids is that some times people need to relate to God as "he" and sometimes as "she" and sometimes as neither, and that this need for gender comes from us, but God is more than willing to meet us where ever we are. Gender as an innate and universal category for classifying the world has been breaking down for some time in the west. My daughter has a Kuan Yin statue and a Gautama statue, but we say the Lord's prayer at bedtime, just as my mother did with me. --Chris On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 5:30 AM, Mel wrote: > > > Wow...my old and former Anglican priest just sent me an email indicating > his understanding that God as such is both father, and mother. That's quite > a revelation from the conservative establishment. Is it possible that there > are renegade priests out there who are influenced by the Buddha and Tao? In > the church's men's dinner he had invited me in some weeks ago, he had also > asked me if there was any chance that I may give the Quakers another chance, > and I said no. I never gave this particular moment much thought...until now > > In Zen, we know for a fact that Siddhartha was male, but 'buddha' as such > that we recognize today has no form of whatever sort...be it solid, liquid, > or gas. Yet there are some who recognize the male and female of the > BigMind/Big I..refered to by some Zen practitioners as Buddha > > I have 2 Buddha statues in my room...the proper Buddha, and the laughing > Chinese variety. There's no doubt that both look very much male. Yet, we as > followers of Zen are not pagans. Pagans have idols of gods and goddesses and > of other beings that have actual, individual forms and personalities. The > statues in my room however, are a contradiction in terms..zen-wise. How can > there be Buddha when there is no Buddha to see, or acknowledge through one's > senses? And yet, I have them, ie, the statues. I feel like looking at them > and absorbing the complete silence forever each time after zazen > > Some also speak of god within, and male or female orientation of such > god(s) are often clues to their spiritual policies. Jehovah being male or > female or both...I don't know. The Great Buddha being male or > female?hmmm...interesting concept..*grin*.. > > Buddha be praised > Mel > > >
Re: [Zen] God..mother or father?
Chris/Mel, God, Buddha or Kuanyin are above gender, as they are bodhisatvas or higher. For instance, the Indian equivalent of Kuanyin Avalokiteshvara is described as male. When he emigrated to Tibet, he keeps the gender, even now. After he is absorbed into the Chinese culture, a female form has appeared, because the people there think women are more compassionate (when they are in a good mood). It is up to you to think about the deity as a male or female or above both, depending on how you will use them in your mind. Anthony --- On Fri, 13/5/11, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: From: Chris Austin-Lane Subject: Re: [Zen] God..mother or father? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 13 May, 2011, 8:06 AM What I tell my kids is that some times people need to relate to God as "he" and sometimes as "she" and sometimes as neither, and that this need for gender comes from us, but God is more than willing to meet us where ever we are. Gender as an innate and universal category for classifying the world has been breaking down for some time in the west. My daughter has a Kuan Yin statue and a Gautama statue, but we say the Lord's prayer at bedtime, just as my mother did with me. --Chris On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 5:30 AM, Mel wrote: Wow...my old and former Anglican priest just sent me an email indicating his understanding that God as such is both father, and mother. That's quite a revelation from the conservative establishment. Is it possible that there are renegade priests out there who are influenced by the Buddha and Tao? In the church's men's dinner he had invited me in some weeks ago, he had also asked me if there was any chance that I may give the Quakers another chance, and I said no. I never gave this particular moment much thought...until now In Zen, we know for a fact that Siddhartha was male, but 'buddha' as such that we recognize today has no form of whatever sort...be it solid, liquid, or gas. Yet there are some who recognize the male and female of the BigMind/Big I..refered to by some Zen practitioners as Buddha I have 2 Buddha statues in my room...the proper Buddha, and the laughing Chinese variety. There's no doubt that both look very much male. Yet, we as followers of Zen are not pagans. Pagans have idols of gods and goddesses and of other beings that have actual, individual forms and personalities. The statues in my room however, are a contradiction in terms..zen-wise. How can there be Buddha when there is no Buddha to see, or acknowledge through one's senses? And yet, I have them, ie, the statues. I feel like looking at them and absorbing the complete silence forever each time after zazen Some also speak of god within, and male or female orientation of such god(s) are often clues to their spiritual policies. Jehovah being male or female or both...I don't know. The Great Buddha being male or female?hmmm...interesting concept..*grin*.. Buddha be praised Mel
Re: [Zen] God..mother or father?
Mel, Chris, Anthony TNH advices not to leave our own spiritual tradition behind as that is part of us and our ancestors. And if we have problems with it then it's time to make up with our own spiritual tradition. I've found his adcvice being a wise one. Mayka --- On Fri, 13/5/11, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: From: Chris Austin-Lane Subject: Re: [Zen] God..mother or father? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 13 May, 2011, 1:06 What I tell my kids is that some times people need to relate to God as "he" and sometimes as "she" and sometimes as neither, and that this need for gender comes from us, but God is more than willing to meet us where ever we are. Gender as an innate and universal category for classifying the world has been breaking down for some time in the west. My daughter has a Kuan Yin statue and a Gautama statue, but we say the Lord's prayer at bedtime, just as my mother did with me. --Chris On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 5:30 AM, Mel wrote: Wow...my old and former Anglican priest just sent me an email indicating his understanding that God as such is both father, and mother. That's quite a revelation from the conservative establishment. Is it possible that there are renegade priests out there who are influenced by the Buddha and Tao? In the church's men's dinner he had invited me in some weeks ago, he had also asked me if there was any chance that I may give the Quakers another chance, and I said no. I never gave this particular moment much thought...until now In Zen, we know for a fact that Siddhartha was male, but 'buddha' as such that we recognize today has no form of whatever sort...be it solid, liquid, or gas. Yet there are some who recognize the male and female of the BigMind/Big I..refered to by some Zen practitioners as Buddha I have 2 Buddha statues in my room...the proper Buddha, and the laughing Chinese variety. There's no doubt that both look very much male. Yet, we as followers of Zen are not pagans. Pagans have idols of gods and goddesses and of other beings that have actual, individual forms and personalities. The statues in my room however, are a contradiction in terms..zen-wise. How can there be Buddha when there is no Buddha to see, or acknowledge through one's senses? And yet, I have them, ie, the statues. I feel like looking at them and absorbing the complete silence forever each time after zazen Some also speak of god within, and male or female orientation of such god(s) are often clues to their spiritual policies. Jehovah being male or female or both...I don't know. The Great Buddha being male or female?hmmm...interesting concept..*grin*.. Buddha be praised Mel
Re: [Zen] God..mother or father?
Sometimes, though, the Buddha has to leave the palace. On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 4:21 AM, Maria Lopez wrote: > > > *Mel, Chris, Anthony* > ** > *TNH advices not to leave our own spiritual tradition behind as that is > part of us and our ancestors. And if we have problems with it then it's > time to make up with our own spiritual tradition. I've found his adcvice > being a wise one. * > ** > *Mayka > * > > --- On *Fri, 13/5/11, Chris Austin-Lane * wrote: > > > From: Chris Austin-Lane > Subject: Re: [Zen] God..mother or father? > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > Date: Friday, 13 May, 2011, 1:06 > > > > What I tell my kids is that some times people need to relate to God as "he" > and sometimes as "she" and sometimes as neither, and that this need for > gender comes from us, but God is more than willing to meet us where ever we > are. Gender as an innate and universal category for classifying the world > has been breaking down for some time in the west. > > My daughter has a Kuan Yin statue and a Gautama statue, but we say the > Lord's prayer at bedtime, just as my mother did with me. > > --Chris > > On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 5:30 AM, Mel > http://uk.mc873.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=gunnar19632...@yahoo.com.au> > > wrote: > > > > Wow...my old and former Anglican priest just sent me an email indicating > his understanding that God as such is both father, and mother. That's quite > a revelation from the conservative establishment. Is it possible that there > are renegade priests out there who are influenced by the Buddha and Tao? In > the church's men's dinner he had invited me in some weeks ago, he had also > asked me if there was any chance that I may give the Quakers another chance, > and I said no. I never gave this particular moment much thought...until now > > In Zen, we know for a fact that Siddhartha was male, but 'buddha' as such > that we recognize today has no form of whatever sort...be it solid, liquid, > or gas. Yet there are some who recognize the male and female of the > BigMind/Big I..refered to by some Zen practitioners as Buddha > > I have 2 Buddha statues in my room...the proper Buddha, and the laughing > Chinese variety. There's no doubt that both look very much male. Yet, we as > followers of Zen are not pagans. Pagans have idols of gods and goddesses and > of other beings that have actual, individual forms and personalities. The > statues in my room however, are a contradiction in terms..zen-wise. How can > there be Buddha when there is no Buddha to see, or acknowledge through one's > senses? And yet, I have them, ie, the statues. I feel like looking at them > and absorbing the complete silence forever each time after zazen > > Some also speak of god within, and male or female orientation of such > god(s) are often clues to their spiritual policies. Jehovah being male or > female or both...I don't know. The Great Buddha being male or > female?hmmm...interesting concept..*grin*.. > > Buddha be praised > Mel > > > > > > >
Re: [Zen] God..mother or father?
Had to leave, as his understanding (or nonunderstanding) of life evolved. --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Mark Perew wrote: > > Sometimes, though, the Buddha has to leave the palace.
Re: [Zen] God..mother or father?
Mark: Don't understand well your comment. Can you elaborate it a little bit? Thank you Mayka --- On Fri, 13/5/11, Mark Perew wrote: From: Mark Perew Subject: Re: [Zen] God..mother or father? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 13 May, 2011, 12:09 Sometimes, though, the Buddha has to leave the palace. On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 4:21 AM, Maria Lopez wrote: Mel, Chris, Anthony TNH advices not to leave our own spiritual tradition behind as that is part of us and our ancestors. And if we have problems with it then it's time to make up with our own spiritual tradition. I've found his adcvice being a wise one. Mayka --- On Fri, 13/5/11, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: From: Chris Austin-Lane Subject: Re: [Zen] God..mother or father? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 13 May, 2011, 1:06 What I tell my kids is that some times people need to relate to God as "he" and sometimes as "she" and sometimes as neither, and that this need for gender comes from us, but God is more than willing to meet us where ever we are. Gender as an innate and universal category for classifying the world has been breaking down for some time in the west. My daughter has a Kuan Yin statue and a Gautama statue, but we say the Lord's prayer at bedtime, just as my mother did with me. --Chris On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 5:30 AM, Mel wrote: Wow...my old and former Anglican priest just sent me an email indicating his understanding that God as such is both father, and mother. That's quite a revelation from the conservative establishment. Is it possible that there are renegade priests out there who are influenced by the Buddha and Tao? In the church's men's dinner he had invited me in some weeks ago, he had also asked me if there was any chance that I may give the Quakers another chance, and I said no. I never gave this particular moment much thought...until now In Zen, we know for a fact that Siddhartha was male, but 'buddha' as such that we recognize today has no form of whatever sort...be it solid, liquid, or gas. Yet there are some who recognize the male and female of the BigMind/Big I..refered to by some Zen practitioners as Buddha I have 2 Buddha statues in my room...the proper Buddha, and the laughing Chinese variety. There's no doubt that both look very much male. Yet, we as followers of Zen are not pagans. Pagans have idols of gods and goddesses and of other beings that have actual, individual forms and personalities. The statues in my room however, are a contradiction in terms..zen-wise. How can there be Buddha when there is no Buddha to see, or acknowledge through one's senses? And yet, I have them, ie, the statues. I feel like looking at them and absorbing the complete silence forever each time after zazen Some also speak of god within, and male or female orientation of such god(s) are often clues to their spiritual policies. Jehovah being male or female or both...I don't know. The Great Buddha being male or female?hmmm...interesting concept..*grin*.. Buddha be praised Mel
Re: [Zen] God..mother or father?
Mayka - In the classic Buddha myth, young Prince Siddartha was unaware of reality until he ventured out of the palace in which was raised. Not until he abandoned that palace could he begin the journey of understanding the nature of life. I respectfully submit that there are occasions when, contrary to what Thay may suggest, it is necessary for each of us to step out of our histories in order to see the world for what it is. My perspective may be colored by my own path. But, I have observed the same arc in many others. The stories, values, and interpretations handed to us by other teachers worked for them, but may not work for you or me or the person next door. We may not know if they do or do not actually work until we step out of them and look at them from a new perspective. On May 13, 2011 2:16 PM, "Maria Lopez" wrote:
Re: [Zen] God..mother or father?
Mark: One doesn't have to agree with everything a Teacher says. Years ago he also advised to use the dharma with intelligence and applied to one reality. I don't agree with everything he says or teaches but I do always take on board what he says. One has to see the real motives from which one has embraced zen Buddhism and similes. Once that is found out, then one will know what to do or not to do. Mayka --- On Fri, 13/5/11, Mark Perew wrote: From: Mark Perew Subject: Re: [Zen] God..mother or father? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 13 May, 2011, 19:47 Mayka - In the classic Buddha myth, young Prince Siddartha was unaware of reality until he ventured out of the palace in which was raised. Not until he abandoned that palace could he begin the journey of understanding the nature of life. I respectfully submit that there are occasions when, contrary to what Thay may suggest, it is necessary for each of us to step out of our histories in order to see the world for what it is. My perspective may be colored by my own path. But, I have observed the same arc in many others. The stories, values, and interpretations handed to us by other teachers worked for them, but may not work for you or me or the person next door. We may not know if they do or do not actually work until we step out of them and look at them from a new perspective. On May 13, 2011 2:16 PM, "Maria Lopez" wrote:
