Re: [zfs-discuss] OT: Formatting Problem of ZFS Adm Guide (pdf)
Waynel, It takes significant amount of work to typeset any large document. Especially if it is a technical document in which you have to adhere to a set of strict typesetting guidelines. In these cases separation of content and style is essential and can't be stressed enough. Word Processors have no mechanism to enforce this separation. So you can not guarantee that a given document strictly follows the set standard of styling rules - these include presentation AND language rules. Eg. how to hyphenate certain words and how to decide how long a given dash would be. In a word processor this task is manual labor intensive, but current advances have made it good for one-off document. Still, they are grossly inadequate for large documents and manuals which have to be written by group of people, styled by another group of people, proof-read, cross referenced, and updated from time to time. SGML based tools (eg. docbook), LaTeX/TeX and Adobe FrameMaker are the only tools that can do this at present. This message posted from opensolaris.org ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] OT: Formatting Problem of ZFS Adm Guide (pdf)
Waynel, It takes significant amount of work to typeset any large document. Especially if it is a technical document in which you have to adhere to a set of strict typesetting guidelines. In these cases separation of content and style is essential and can't be stressed enough. Word Processors have no mechanism to enforce this separation. So you can not guarantee that a given document strictly follows the set standard of styling rules - these include presentation AND language rules. Eg. how to hyphenate certain words and how to decide how long a given dash would be. In a word processor this task is manual labor intensive, but current advances have made it good for one-off document. Still, they are grossly inadequate for large documents and manuals which have to be written by group of people, styled by another group of people, proof-read, cross referenced, and updated from time to time. SGML based tools (eg. docbook), LaTeX/TeX and Adobe FrameMaker are the only tools that can do this at present. Just curious, when was the last time you used StarOffice? Sorry, can't help it. :-) This message posted from opensolaris.org ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] OT: Formatting Problem of ZFS Adm Guide (pdf)
Please read Akhilesh's answer carefully and stop repeating the same thing. Staroffice is to Latex/Framemaker what a mid-size sedan is to an 18-wheeler. To the untrained eye, they appear to perform similar actions, but the actual overlap is really small. Sorry, can't help it. :-) Please, try harder... florin -- Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition. http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163 EGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) I am asking you to do the same, too. Please read my series of posts carefully. I am sensing a strong hostility in the Solaris community against StarOfficce/OpenOffice.org. Perhaps it is no surprise that the Solaris version of OpenOffice.org seriously (from the point of view of an experienced user) lags that of other operating systems. Actually, a couple of main stream Linux distros (e.g., SuSE and Ubuntu) are using a forked (by Novell) version of OpenOffice.org. If someone can help me port that version of OOo to OpenSolaris, I will greatly appreciate it. (However, with this out-burst, I doubt anyone will. :-) ) I don't doubt the superiority of LaTex/Framemaker in conjunction with Distiller in producing nicely typeset books and brochures. But how good is a tool if it produces a product that its intended users can NOT read? This is what prompted me to start this thread--and I really regret that I brought this issue up. I know this problem is being solved, but can someone guarantee me that this will never happen again? Second, Sun is claiming, according to its CEO, to be transferring itself into an open source powerhouse. How does the act of refusing to use an open source product which is perhaps 90~95% as good but can be iteratively improved, impact someone like myself who wants to believe everything Sun said? It is the latter that I care the most about. This message posted from opensolaris.org ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] OT: Formatting Problem of ZFS Adm Guide (pdf)
On Wed, Aug 27, 2008 at 12:41, W. Wayne Liauh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't doubt the superiority of LaTex/Framemaker in conjunction with Distiller in producing nicely typeset books and brochures. But how good is a tool if it produces a product that its intended users can NOT read? This is what prompted me to start this thread--and I really regret that I brought this issue up. I know this problem is being solved, but can someone guarantee me that this will never happen again? The problem is not in those products, but in the PDF reader. If you'd like to suggest that an alternative viewer be included, that would be a reasonable suggestion. Changing the implementation which generates the documents (which Sun controls) to fix a problem on the display end (which Sun also controls) is a silly idea. Fix the viewer and the problem is solved. Switching to OOo would not guarantee anything. Second, Sun is claiming, according to its CEO, to be transferring itself into an open source powerhouse. How does the act of refusing to use an open source product which is perhaps 90~95% as good but can be iteratively improved, impact someone like myself who wants to believe everything Sun said? LaTeX [1] and OpenJade (a DocBook implementation) are also open source. To use OOo instead just because it's Sun's project would smack of NIH syndrome [2] to me. Will [1]: http://www.latex-project.org/lppl/lppl-1-3c.html [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_Invented_Here ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] OT: Formatting Problem of ZFS Adm Guide (pdf)
I don't doubt the superiority of LaTex/Framemaker in conjunction with Distiller in producing (the pdf versions of) nicely typeset books and brochures. But how good is a tool if it produces a product that its intended users can NOT read? This is what prompted You seem to have missed the following reply by richard = Quote === This is not a PDF problem, it is a freetype font problem which was introduced with freetype 2.3.6 in b93 and should be fixed in b97. http://bugs.opensolaris.org/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=6723656 http://bugs.opensolaris.org/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=6712820 -- richard This is a freetype problem, and such problems can impact anything. Nevada builds are anything but lightly tested developer snapshots. They didn't even introduce the problem - freetype folks did! On my system (nv84) OpenOffice looked so crap (thick ugly fonts) that I avoided using it until I compiled and replaced freetype. Secondly, PDF Latex/docbook/SGML are as free and open source as you can get. PDF is open spec anyone can create a viewer. It's like using Gimp to produce an art instead of GNOME Paint. Just like Gimp shouldn't be blamed if someone's image viewer is broken and they can't see an image, we shouldn't blame the tools that generated the PDF. The PDFs render fine in the following viewers I have on this nv84 system: * xpdf (3.02) * Acrobat Reader 8.0 (running via wine) * Foxit Reader 2.3 (running on wine) * GhostScript Thirdly, most (all?) the docs can be created independently by community. Infact you can start creating one yourself rather than wait/depend on Sun or anybody else. Isn't that what open source all about ? - Akhilesh This message posted from opensolaris.org ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] OT: Formatting Problem of ZFS Adm Guide (pdf)
On 27-Aug-08, at 1:41 PM, W. Wayne Liauh wrote: Please read Akhilesh's answer carefully and stop repeating the same thing. Staroffice is to Latex/Framemaker what a mid-size sedan is to an 18-wheeler. To the untrained eye, they appear to perform similar actions, but the actual overlap is really small. Sorry, can't help it. :-) Please, try harder... florin -- Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition. http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163 EGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) I am asking you to do the same, too. Please read my series of posts carefully. I am sensing a strong hostility in the Solaris community against StarOfficce/OpenOffice.org. Perhaps it is no surprise that the Solaris version of OpenOffice.org seriously (from the point of view of an experienced user) lags that of other operating systems. Actually, a couple of main stream Linux distros (e.g., SuSE and Ubuntu) are using a forked (by Novell) version of OpenOffice.org. If someone can help me port that version of OOo to OpenSolaris, I will greatly appreciate it. (However, with this out-burst, I doubt anyone will. :-) ) I don't doubt the superiority of LaTex/Framemaker in conjunction with Distiller in producing nicely typeset books and brochures. You missed the part about large scale teams, workflow, etc. OoO is meant for simple office tasks, not to replace industrial-scale documentation systems. But how good is a tool if it produces a product that its intended users can NOT read? This is what prompted me to start this thread-- and I really regret that I brought this issue up. I know this problem is being solved, but can someone guarantee me that this will never happen again? The bug is completely unrelated to your spirited advocacy of OoO. There is no reason to think that similar annoyances would never arise with OoO produced documents. Second, Sun is claiming, according to its CEO, to be transferring itself into an open source powerhouse. Scott McNealy himself claims that Sharing has been [Sun's] corporate strategy since February 24, 1984. Under Schwartz a lot more rubber has been meeting the road. By some measures Sun is the largest open source contributor on the planet. What have *you* done for open source lately? How does the act of refusing to use an open source product which is perhaps 90~95% as good but can be iteratively improved, As those who know have already argued, the product is simply not appropriate for this use. By the way, LaTeX has been open source since before Linux and 99% of open source programs existed. --Toby impact someone like myself who wants to believe everything Sun said? It is the latter that I care the most about. This message posted from opensolaris.org ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] OT: Formatting Problem of ZFS Adm Guide (pdf)
One can carve furniture with an axe, especially if it's razor-sharp, ut that doesn't make it a spokeshave, plane and saw. I love star office, and use it every day, but my publisher uses rame, so that's what I use for books. --dave As of Build 95, I am still unable to read a good part of the Adm Guide. I did a quick and dirty experiment by copying and pasting a page from the Adm Guide that contains the invisible fonts into StarSuite, then exporting it to PDF. Lo and behold, all the problems disappeared. I understand there is a bug in the current builds of OpenSolaris that is out of Sun's control. I am sure this problem will be solved when 2008.11 comes out (fingers crossed!). However, there is no guarantee that this problem will not reappear again. Then we will just have to fire up VirtualBox to read those Sun-published PDF files. Again, I don't see any reason why we should not consider using StarOffice (BTW, it's StarOffice--one word, not star office) to publish the Adm Guide, as well as other Sun publications. Microsoft generates more than 50% of its profits from sales of its Office suites. It is my experience that if one is willing to invest time and effort, StarOffice is, give and take, at least as competent as any desktop publishing tool, especially when compared to Microsoft Office, in publishing technical documents. Of course, what is good enough for a pauper may not be good enough for Sun's employees. This message posted from opensolaris.org ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] OT: Formatting Problem of ZFS Adm Guide (pdf)
W. Wayne Liauh wrote: One can carve furniture with an axe, especially if it's razor-sharp, ut that doesn't make it a spokeshave, plane and saw. I love star office, and use it every day, but my publisher uses rame, so that's what I use for books. --dave As of Build 95, I am still unable to read a good part of the Adm Guide. I did a quick and dirty experiment by copying and pasting a page from the Adm Guide that contains the invisible fonts into StarSuite, then exporting it to PDF. Lo and behold, all the problems disappeared. I understand there is a bug in the current builds of OpenSolaris that is out of Sun's control. I am sure this problem will be solved when 2008.11 comes out (fingers crossed!). However, there is no guarantee that this problem will not reappear again. Then we will just have to fire up VirtualBox to read those Sun-published PDF files. This is not a PDF problem, it is a freetype font problem which was introduced with freetype 2.3.6 in b93 and should be fixed in b97. http://bugs.opensolaris.org/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=6723656 http://bugs.opensolaris.org/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=6712820 -- richard ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] OT: Formatting Problem of ZFS Adm Guide (pdf)
On Tue, 26 Aug 2008, W. Wayne Liauh wrote: Again, I don't see any reason why we should not consider using StarOffice (BTW, it's StarOffice--one word, not star office) to publish the Adm Guide, as well as other Sun publications. You are saying that Sun should start over from scratch and attempt to use the wrong kind of tool to attempt to reproduce all the content at http://docs.sun.com/app/docs? Good Grief! Bob == Bob Friesenhahn [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer,http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] OT: Formatting Problem of ZFS Adm Guide (pdf)
Again, I don't see any reason why we should not consider using StarOffice (BTW, it's StarOffice--one word, not star office) to publish the Adm Guide, as well as other Sun publications. You are saying that Sun should start over from scratch and attempt to use the wrong kind of tool to attempt to reproduce all the content at http://docs.sun.com/app/docs? Good Grief! Bob == Bob Friesenhahn [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ Well, the best way ( probably the only way) to convince others to use your product, is to use it yourself. The opposite of this moral is the real ugly one: If you (i.e., Sun) don't use your own product, no one else will. The same theory also goes with Solaris. Actually, once your have the text, an experienced StarOffice user can do all the formatting in less than an hour (no kidding). Text is different from Graphics. With a proper collection of template libraries, all you need to do is click, click, and click. I apologize for wasting the bandwidth. As Richard mentioned in a previous reply, this is not a PDF problem. It just so happened that only Sun's documents have problems. This is particularly frustrating as I haven't had time to work around the VirtualBox bug in build 95. This message posted from opensolaris.org ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] OT: Formatting Problem of ZFS Adm Guide (pdf)
I doubt so. Star/OpenOffice are word processors... and like Word they are not suitable for typesetting documents. SGML, FrameMaker TeX/LateX are the only ones capable of doing that. This was pretty much true about a year ago. However, after version 2.3, which adds the kerning feature, OpenOffice.org can produce very professionally looking documents. All of the OOo User Guides, which are every bit as complex as if not more so than our own user guides, are now self-generated. Solveig Haugland, a highly respected OpenOffice.org consultant, published her book OpenOffice.org 2 Guidebook (a 527-page book complete with drawings, table of contents, multi-column index, etc.) entirely on OOo. Another key consideration, in addition to perhaps a desire to support our sister product, is that the documents so generated are guaranteed to be displayable on the OS they are intended to serve. This is a pretty important consideration IMO. :-) This message posted from opensolaris.org ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] OT: Formatting Problem of ZFS Adm Guide (pdf)
One can carve furniture with an axe, especially if it's razor-sharp, but that doesn't make it a spokeshave, plane and saw. I love star office, and use it every day, but my publisher uses Frame, so that's what I use for books. --dave W. Wayne Liauh wrote: I doubt so. Star/OpenOffice are word processors... and like Word they are not suitable for typesetting documents. SGML, FrameMaker TeX/LateX are the only ones capable of doing that. This was pretty much true about a year ago. However, after version 2.3, which adds the kerning feature, OpenOffice.org can produce very professionally looking documents. All of the OOo User Guides, which are every bit as complex as if not more so than our own user guides, are now self-generated. Solveig Haugland, a highly respected OpenOffice.org consultant, published her book OpenOffice.org 2 Guidebook (a 527-page book complete with drawings, table of contents, multi-column index, etc.) entirely on OOo. Another key consideration, in addition to perhaps a desire to support our sister product, is that the documents so generated are guaranteed to be displayable on the OS they are intended to serve. This is a pretty important consideration IMO. :-) This message posted from opensolaris.org ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss -- David Collier-Brown| Always do right. This will gratify Sun Microsystems, Toronto | some people and astonish the rest [EMAIL PROTECTED] | -- Mark Twain (905) 943-1983, cell: (647) 833-9377, (800) 555-9786 x56583 bridge: (877) 385-4099 code: 506 9191# ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] OT: Formatting Problem of ZFS Adm Guide (pdf)
I doubt so. Star/OpenOffice are word processors... and like Word they are not suitable for typesetting documents. SGML, FrameMaker TeX/LateX are the only ones capable of doing that. This message posted from opensolaris.org ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
