Re: [zfs-discuss] Raidz vdev size... again.
On Tue, 28 Apr 2009, Richard Elling wrote: I suppose if you could freeze the media to 0K, then it would not decay. But that isn't the world I live in :-). There is a whole Journal devoted to things magnetic, with lots of studies of interesting compounds. But from a practical perspective, it is worth noting that some magnetic tapes have a rated shelf life of 8-10 years while enterprise-class backup tapes are only rated at 30 years. Most disks have an expected operational life of 5 years or so. As Tim notes, it is a good idea to plan for migrating important data to newer devices over time. I am definitely a fan of migrating data. As far as media degredation goes, perhaps much of the concern is the stability of the base stock (e.g. plastic) or disk drive mechanism and heads, and not the ability of the magnetic stuff to maintain its magnetism. However, even the planet earth has an average shelf-life of 10,000 years, after which the poles may suddenly be reversed (compass points in opposite direction). Bob -- Bob Friesenhahn bfrie...@simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer,http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] Raidz vdev size... again.
Bob Friesenhahn wrote: On Tue, 28 Apr 2009, Richard Elling wrote: Yes and there is a very important point here. There are 2 different sorts of scrubbing: read and rewrite. ZFS (today) does read scrubbing, which does not reset the decay process. Some RAID arrays also do rewrite scrubs which does reset the decay process. The problem with rewrite scrubbing is that you I am not convinced that there is a "decay" process. There is considerable magnetic hysteresis involved. It seems most likely that corruption happens all of a sudden, and involves more than one or two bits. More often than not we hear of a number of sectors failing at one time. I suppose if you could freeze the media to 0K, then it would not decay. But that isn't the world I live in :-). There is a whole Journal devoted to things magnetic, with lots of studies of interesting compounds. But from a practical perspective, it is worth noting that some magnetic tapes have a rated shelf life of 8-10 years while enterprise-class backup tapes are only rated at 30 years. Most disks have an expected operational life of 5 years or so. As Tim notes, it is a good idea to plan for migrating important data to newer devices over time. -- richard ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] Raidz vdev size... again.
On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 11:12 PM, Bob Friesenhahn < bfrie...@simple.dallas.tx.us> wrote: > On Tue, 28 Apr 2009, Tim wrote: > > I'll stick with the 3 year life cycle of the system followed by a hot >> migration to new storage, thank you very much. >> > > Once again there is a fixation on the idea that computers gradually degrade > over time and that simply replacing the hardware before the expiration date > (like a bottle of milk) will save the data. I recently took an old Sun > system out of service that was approaching 12 years on the same disks with > no known read errors. The Sun before that one was taken out of service > after 11 years with no known read errors. Lucky me. > > Various papers I have read suggest that degregation is in fits and bursts > and contrary to what one would expect based on vendor specifications. > > Bob > I don't recall saying anything about a computer wearing out. When net-new and faster/more space is cheaper than maintenance renewal, I'll sick with net-new. --Tim ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] Raidz vdev size... again.
On Tue, 28 Apr 2009, Tim wrote: I'll stick with the 3 year life cycle of the system followed by a hot migration to new storage, thank you very much. Once again there is a fixation on the idea that computers gradually degrade over time and that simply replacing the hardware before the expiration date (like a bottle of milk) will save the data. I recently took an old Sun system out of service that was approaching 12 years on the same disks with no known read errors. The Sun before that one was taken out of service after 11 years with no known read errors. Lucky me. Various papers I have read suggest that degregation is in fits and bursts and contrary to what one would expect based on vendor specifications. Bob -- Bob Friesenhahn bfrie...@simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer,http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] Raidz vdev size... again.
On Tue, 28 Apr 2009, Richard Elling wrote: Yes and there is a very important point here. There are 2 different sorts of scrubbing: read and rewrite. ZFS (today) does read scrubbing, which does not reset the decay process. Some RAID arrays also do rewrite scrubs which does reset the decay process. The problem with rewrite scrubbing is that you I am not convinced that there is a "decay" process. There is considerable magnetic hysteresis involved. It seems most likely that corruption happens all of a sudden, and involves more than one or two bits. More often than not we hear of a number of sectors failing at one time. Do you have a reference to research results which show that a gradual "decay" process is a significant factor? Bob -- Bob Friesenhahn bfrie...@simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer,http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] Raidz vdev size... again.
On Tue, 28 Apr 2009, Miles Nordin wrote: * it'd be harmful to do this on SSD's. it might also be a really good idea to do it on SSD's. who knows yet. SSDs can be based on many types of technologies, and not just those that wear out. * it may be wasteful to do read/rewrite on an ordinary magnetic drive because if you just do a read, the drive should notice a decaying block and rewrite it without being told specifically, maybe. though from netapp's paper, they say they disable many of Does the drive have the capability to detect when a sector is written to the wrong track? In order for it to detect that, the expected location would have to be written into the sector. In the end, though, I bet we may end up with this feature on ZFS in the disguise of a ``defragmenter''. If the defragmenter will promise to rewrite every block to a new spot, not jhust the ones it pleases, this will do the job of your ``write scrub'' and also solve the drive caching problem. It seems doubtful that bulk re-writing of data will improve data integrity. Writing is dangerous. Bob -- Bob Friesenhahn bfrie...@simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer,http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] Raidz vdev size... again.
On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 4:52 PM, Richard Elling wrote: > > Well done! Of course Hitachi doesn't use consumer-grade disks in > their arrays... > > I'll also confess that I did set a bit of a math trap here :-) The trap is > that if you ever have to recover data from tape/backup, then you'll > have no chance of making 5-9s when using large volumes. Suppose > you have a really nice backup system that can restore 10TBytes in > 10 hours. To achieve 5-9s you'd need to make sure that you never > have to restore from backups for the next 114 years. Since the > expected lifetime of a disk is << 114 years, you'll have a poor > chance of making it. So the problem really boils down to how sure > you can be that you won't have an unrecoverable read during the > expected lifetime of your system. Studies have shown [1] that you > are much more likely to see this than you'd expect. The way to > solve that problem is to use double parity to further reduce this > probability. Or, more simply, BAARF. > > [1] http://www.cs.wisc.edu/adsl/Publications/corruption-fast08.pdf > > -- richard Your *trap* assumes COMPLETE data loss. I don't' know what world you live in, but the one I live in doesn't require a restore of 10TB of data when *ONE* block is bad. You've also assumed that the useful life of the data is 114 years, also false in the majority of primary disk systems. Then there's the little issue with you ignoring parity when you quote "a disk drives life". I'll stick with the 3 year life cycle of the system followed by a hot migration to new storage, thank you very much. --Tim ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] Raidz vdev size... again.
On Apr 28, 2009, at 18:02, Richard Elling wrote: Kees Nuyt wrote: Some high availablility storage systems overcome this decay by not just reading, but also writing all blocks during a scrub. In those systems, scrubbing is done semi-continously in the background, not on user/admin demand. Yes and there is a very important point here. There are 2 different sorts of scrubbing: read and rewrite. ZFS (today) does read scrubbing, which does not reset the decay process. Some RAID arrays also do rewrite scrubs which does reset the decay process. The problem with rewrite scrubbing is that you really want to be sure the data is correct before you rewrite. Neither is completely foolproof, so it is still a good idea to have backups :-) Hopefully bp relocate will be make it into Solaris at some point, so when a scrub gets kicked off we'll be able to have that (at least as an option, if not by default). Mac OS 10.5 auto-defrags in the background (given certain criteria are met), but iHFS+ doesn't have checksums, so there's a bit risk in creating errors. Combine the two and you have a fairly robust defrag system. ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] Raidz vdev size... again.
Kees Nuyt wrote: On Mon, 27 Apr 2009 18:25:42 -0700, Richard Elling wrote: The concern with large drives is unrecoverable reads during resilvering. One contributor to this is superparamagnetic decay, where the bits are lost over time as the medium tries to revert to a more steady state. To some extent, periodic scrubs will help repair these while the disks are otherwise still good. At least one study found that this can occur even when scrubs are done, so there is an open research opportunity to determine the risk and recommend scrubbing intervals. Some high availablility storage systems overcome this decay by not just reading, but also writing all blocks during a scrub. In those systems, scrubbing is done semi-continously in the background, not on user/admin demand. Yes and there is a very important point here. There are 2 different sorts of scrubbing: read and rewrite. ZFS (today) does read scrubbing, which does not reset the decay process. Some RAID arrays also do rewrite scrubs which does reset the decay process. The problem with rewrite scrubbing is that you really want to be sure the data is correct before you rewrite. Neither is completely foolproof, so it is still a good idea to have backups :-) -- richard ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] Raidz vdev size... again.
Tim wrote: On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 8:25 PM, Richard Elling mailto:richard.ell...@gmail.com>> wrote: I do not believe you can achieve five 9s with current consumer disk drives for an extended period, say >1 year. Just to pipe up, while very few vendors can pull it off, we've seen five 9's with Hitachi gear using SATA. Well done! Of course Hitachi doesn't use consumer-grade disks in their arrays... I'll also confess that I did set a bit of a math trap here :-) The trap is that if you ever have to recover data from tape/backup, then you'll have no chance of making 5-9s when using large volumes. Suppose you have a really nice backup system that can restore 10TBytes in 10 hours. To achieve 5-9s you'd need to make sure that you never have to restore from backups for the next 114 years. Since the expected lifetime of a disk is << 114 years, you'll have a poor chance of making it. So the problem really boils down to how sure you can be that you won't have an unrecoverable read during the expected lifetime of your system. Studies have shown [1] that you are much more likely to see this than you'd expect. The way to solve that problem is to use double parity to further reduce this probability. Or, more simply, BAARF. [1] http://www.cs.wisc.edu/adsl/Publications/corruption-fast08.pdf -- richard ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] Raidz vdev size... again.
> "kn" == Kees Nuyt writes: kn> Some high availablility storage systems overcome this decay by kn> not just reading, but also writing all blocks during a kn> scrub. sounds like a good idea but harder in the ZFS model where the software isn't the proprietary work of the only permitted integrator. * it'd be harmful to do this on SSD's. it might also be a really good idea to do it on SSD's. who knows yet. * optimizing the overall system depends on intimate knowledge of, and control over the release binding of, drive firmware and its errata/quirks/decisions * it may be wasteful to do read/rewrite on an ordinary magnetic drive because if you just do a read, the drive should notice a decaying block and rewrite it without being told specifically, maybe. though from netapp's paper, they say they disable many of these features in their SCSI drives, including bad block remapping, and delegate them to the layer of their own software right above the drive * there's an ``offline self test'' in SMART where the drive is supposed to scrub itself, possibly including badblock remapping and marginal sector rewriting. If this feature worked it could possibly accomplish scrubs with better QoS (less interference to real read/writes) and no controller-to-storage bandwidth wastage, compared to actually reading and rewriting through the controller, or possibly several layers above the controller through fanouts and such. * drives with caches may suppress overwrites to sectors containing what the cache says is already in those sectors. I guess I heard on this list that SCSI has commands to ignore the cache for read and other commands to bypass it for write, but not SATA, or the commands could be broken because no one else uses them. You have to have some business relationship with the drive company before they will admit what their proprietary firmware really does, much less alter it to your wishes, even if your wish is merely that it complies, or behaves like it did yesterday. Every tiny piece of software that remains proprietary eventually turns into a blob that does someone else's bidding and fucks with you. In the end, though, I bet we may end up with this feature on ZFS in the disguise of a ``defragmenter''. If the defragmenter will promise to rewrite every block to a new spot, not jhust the ones it pleases, this will do the job of your ``write scrub'' and also solve the drive caching problem. kn> In those systems, scrubbing is done semi-continously in the kn> background, not on user/admin demand. which ones? name names. :) I thought netapp's two papers said they are doing it ``every Sunday'' or something. but, yeah, asking the admin to initiate it manually means if it makes the array uselessly slow you blame the admin rather than the software stack. linux ubifs (NAND flash) scrubs are also mandatory/unsupervised. pgpACOKK377Hd.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] Raidz vdev size... again.
On Mon, 27 Apr 2009 18:25:42 -0700, Richard Elling wrote: >The concern with large drives is unrecoverable reads during resilvering. >One contributor to this is superparamagnetic decay, where the bits are >lost over time as the medium tries to revert to a more steady state. >To some extent, periodic scrubs will help repair these while the disks >are otherwise still good. At least one study found that this can occur >even when scrubs are done, so there is an open research opportunity >to determine the risk and recommend scrubbing intervals. Some high availablility storage systems overcome this decay by not just reading, but also writing all blocks during a scrub. In those systems, scrubbing is done semi-continously in the background, not on user/admin demand. -- ( Kees Nuyt ) c[_] ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] Raidz vdev size... again.
On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 9:42 AM, Scott Lawson wrote: >> Mainstream Solaris 10 gets a port of ZFS from OpenSolaris, so its >> features are fewer and later. As time ticks away, fewer features >> will be back-ported to Solaris 10. Meanwhile, you can get a production >> support agreement for OpenSolaris. > > Sure if you want to run it on x86. I believe sometime in 2009 we will see a > SPARC release > for Opensolaris. I understand that it is to be the next OpenSolaris release, > but I wouldn't hold > my breath. It's already available for Sparc (http://genunix.org/). Just not in installer or Live DVD format (which should be availabe for 2009.6 release). Regards, Fajar ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] Raidz vdev size... again.
On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 10:08 AM, Tim wrote: > > > On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 8:25 PM, Richard Elling > wrote: >> >> I do not believe you can achieve five 9s with current consumer disk >> drives for an extended period, say >1 year. > > Just to pipe up, while very few vendors can pull it off, we've seen five 9's > with Hitachi gear using SATA. Can you specify the hardware? I've recently switched to LSI SAS1068E controllers and am swimmingly happy. (That's my $.02 - controllers (not surprisingly) affect the niceness of a software RAID solution like ZFS quite a bit - maybe even more than the actual drives...?) ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] Raidz vdev size... again.
On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 8:25 PM, Richard Elling wrote: > > I do not believe you can achieve five 9s with current consumer disk > drives for an extended period, say >1 year. > Just to pipe up, while very few vendors can pull it off, we've seen five 9's with Hitachi gear using SATA. --Tim ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] Raidz vdev size... again.
Richard Elling wrote: Some history below... Scott Lawson wrote: Michael Shadle wrote: On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 4:51 PM, Scott Lawson wrote: If possible though you would be best to let the 3ware controller expose the 16 disks as a JBOD to ZFS and create a RAIDZ2 within Solaris as you will then gain the full benefits of ZFS. Block self healing etc etc. There isn't an issue in using a larger amount of disks in a RAIDZ2, just that it is not the optimal size. Longer rebuild times for larger vdev's in a zpool (although this is proportional to how full the pool is.). Two parity disks gives you greater cover in the event of a drive failing in a large vdev stripe. Hmm, this is a bit disappointing to me. I would have dedicated only 2 disks out of 16 then to a single large raidz2 instead of two 8 disk raidz2's (meaning 4 disks went to parity) No I was referring to a single RAIDZ2 vdev of 16 disks in your pool. So you would lose ~2 disks to parity effectively. The larger the stripe, potentially the slower the rebuild. If you had multiple vdevs in a pool that were smaller stripes you would get less performance degradation by virtue of IO isolation. Of course here you lose pool capacity. With smaller vdevs, you could also potentially just use RAIDZ and not RAIDZ2 and then you would have the equivalent size pool still with two parity disks. 1 per vdev. A few years ago, Sun introduced the X4500 (aka Thumper) which had 48 disks in the chassis. Of course, the first thing customers did was to make a single-level 46 or 48 disk raidz set. The second thing they did was complain that the resulting performance sucked. So the "solution" was to try and put some sort of practical limit into the docs to help people not hurt themselves. After much research (down at the pub? :-) the recommendation you see in the man page was the concensus. It has absolutely nothing to do with correctness of design or implementation. It has everything to do with setting expectations of "goodness." Sure, I understand this. I was a beta tester for the J4500 because I prefer SPARC systems mostly for Solaris. Certainly for these large disk systems the preferred layout of around 5-6 drives per vdev is what I use on my assortment of *4500 series devices. My production J4500's with 48 x 1 TB drives yield around ~31 TB usable. A T5520 10 Gig attached will pretty much saturate the 3Gb/s SAS HBA connecting it to the J4500. ;) Being that this a home NAS for Michael serving large contiguous files with fairly low random access requirements, most likely I would imagine that these rules of thumb can be relaxed a little. As you state they are a rule of thumb for generic loads. This list does appear to be attracting people wanting to use ZFS for home and capacity tends to be the biggest requirement over performance. As I always advise people. Test with *your* workload as *your* requirements may be different to the next mans. If you favor capacity over performance then a larger vdev of a dozen or so disks will work 'OK' in my experience. (I do routinely get referred to Sun customers in NZ as a site that actually use ZFS in production and doesn't just play with it.) I have tested the aforementioned thumpers with just this sort of config myself with varying results on varying workloads. Video servers, Sun Email etc etc... Long time ago now. I also have hardware backed RAID 6's consisting of 16 drives in 6000 series storage on Crystal firmware which work just fine in the hardware RAID world. (where I want capacity over speed). This is real world production class stuff. Works just fine. I have ZFS overlaid on top of this as well. But it is good that we are emphasizing the trade offs that any config has. Everyone can learn from these sorts of discussions. ;) One thing you haven't mentioned is the drive type and size that you are planning to use as this greatly influences what people here would recommend. RAIDZ2 is built for big, slow SATA disks as reconstruction times in large RAIDZ's and RAIDZ2's increase the risk of vdev failure significantly due to the time taken to resilver to a replacement drive. Hot spares are your friend! The concern with large drives is unrecoverable reads during resilvering. One contributor to this is superparamagnetic decay, where the bits are lost over time as the medium tries to revert to a more steady state. To some extent, periodic scrubs will help repair these while the disks are otherwise still good. At least one study found that this can occur even when scrubs are done, so there is an open research opportunity to determine the risk and recommend scrubbing intervals. To a lesser extent, hot spares can help reduce the hours it may take to physically repair the failed drive. +1 I was still operating under the impression that vdevs larger than 7-8 disks typically make baby Jesus nervous. You did also state that this is a system to be used for backups?
Re: [zfs-discuss] Raidz vdev size... again.
On Mon, 27 Apr 2009, Michael Shadle wrote: I was still operating under the impression that vdevs larger than 7-8 disks typically make baby Jesus nervous. Baby Jesus might not be particularly nervous but if your drives don't perform consistently, then there will be more chance of performance loss. With raidz and raidz2 the drives need to operate in synchronicity so a balky drive (e.g. longer seek times than the others or slow transfers) will hurt performance. Naturally, the more money you try to save, the more chance you have of a balky drive. If you find one, you can replace it and replace drives until there are no more laggards left. From what I have heard, there are limits to how many drives can be included in a ZFS block write so an individual write is not likely to span all of the drives, which makes finding the balky drives more interesting. Bob -- Bob Friesenhahn bfrie...@simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer,http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] Raidz vdev size... again.
Some history below... Scott Lawson wrote: Michael Shadle wrote: On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 4:51 PM, Scott Lawson wrote: If possible though you would be best to let the 3ware controller expose the 16 disks as a JBOD to ZFS and create a RAIDZ2 within Solaris as you will then gain the full benefits of ZFS. Block self healing etc etc. There isn't an issue in using a larger amount of disks in a RAIDZ2, just that it is not the optimal size. Longer rebuild times for larger vdev's in a zpool (although this is proportional to how full the pool is.). Two parity disks gives you greater cover in the event of a drive failing in a large vdev stripe. Hmm, this is a bit disappointing to me. I would have dedicated only 2 disks out of 16 then to a single large raidz2 instead of two 8 disk raidz2's (meaning 4 disks went to parity) No I was referring to a single RAIDZ2 vdev of 16 disks in your pool. So you would lose ~2 disks to parity effectively. The larger the stripe, potentially the slower the rebuild. If you had multiple vdevs in a pool that were smaller stripes you would get less performance degradation by virtue of IO isolation. Of course here you lose pool capacity. With smaller vdevs, you could also potentially just use RAIDZ and not RAIDZ2 and then you would have the equivalent size pool still with two parity disks. 1 per vdev. A few years ago, Sun introduced the X4500 (aka Thumper) which had 48 disks in the chassis. Of course, the first thing customers did was to make a single-level 46 or 48 disk raidz set. The second thing they did was complain that the resulting performance sucked. So the "solution" was to try and put some sort of practical limit into the docs to help people not hurt themselves. After much research (down at the pub? :-) the recommendation you see in the man page was the concensus. It has absolutely nothing to do with correctness of design or implementation. It has everything to do with setting expectations of "goodness." One thing you haven't mentioned is the drive type and size that you are planning to use as this greatly influences what people here would recommend. RAIDZ2 is built for big, slow SATA disks as reconstruction times in large RAIDZ's and RAIDZ2's increase the risk of vdev failure significantly due to the time taken to resilver to a replacement drive. Hot spares are your friend! The concern with large drives is unrecoverable reads during resilvering. One contributor to this is superparamagnetic decay, where the bits are lost over time as the medium tries to revert to a more steady state. To some extent, periodic scrubs will help repair these while the disks are otherwise still good. At least one study found that this can occur even when scrubs are done, so there is an open research opportunity to determine the risk and recommend scrubbing intervals. To a lesser extent, hot spares can help reduce the hours it may take to physically repair the failed drive. I was still operating under the impression that vdevs larger than 7-8 disks typically make baby Jesus nervous. You did also state that this is a system to be used for backups? So availability is five 9's? I do not believe you can achieve five 9s with current consumer disk drives for an extended period, say >1 year. Are you planning on using Open Solaris or mainstream Solaris 10? Mainstream Solaris 10 is more conservative and is capable of being placed under a support agreement if need be. Mainstream Solaris 10 gets a port of ZFS from OpenSolaris, so its features are fewer and later. As time ticks away, fewer features will be back-ported to Solaris 10. Meanwhile, you can get a production support agreement for OpenSolaris. http://www.sun.com/service/opensolaris/index.jsp -- richard ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] Raidz vdev size... again.
Michael Shadle wrote: On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 5:32 PM, Scott Lawson wrote: One thing you haven't mentioned is the drive type and size that you are planning to use as this greatly influences what people here would recommend. RAIDZ2 is built for big, slow SATA disks as reconstruction times in large RAIDZ's and RAIDZ2's increase the risk of vdev failure significantly due to the time taken to resilver to a replacement drive. Hot spares are your friend! Well these are Seagate 1.5TB SATA disks. So.. big slow disks ;) Then RAIDZ2 is your friend! The resilver time on a large RAIDZ2 stripe on these would take a significant amount of time. The probability of another drive failing during this rebuild time is quite high. I have in my time seen numerous double disk failures in hardware backed RAID5's resulting in complete volume failure. You did also state that this is a system to be used for backups? So availability is five 9's? Are you planning on using Open Solaris or mainstream Solaris 10? Mainstream Solaris 10 is more conservative and is capable of being placed under a support agreement if need be. Nope. Home storage (DVDs, music, etc) - I'd be fine with mainstream Solaris, the only reason I went with SXCE was for the in-kernel CIFS, which I wound up not using anyway due to some weird bug. I have a v240 at home with a 12 bay D1000 chassis with 11 x 300GB SCSI's in a RAIDZ2 at home with 1 hot spare. Makes a great NAS for me. Mostly for photo's and music so the capacity is fine. Speed is very very quick as these are 10 K drives. I have a a printing business on the side where we store customer images on this and have gigabit to all the macs that we use for photoshop. The assurance that RAIDZ2 gives me allows me to sleep comfortably. (coupled with daily snapshots ;)) I use S10 10/08 with Samba for my network clients. Runs like a charm. -- ___ Scott Lawson Systems Architect Manukau Institute of Technology Information Communication Technology Services Private Bag 94006 Manukau City Auckland New Zealand Phone : +64 09 968 7611 Fax: +64 09 968 7641 Mobile : +64 27 568 7611 mailto:sc...@manukau.ac.nz http://www.manukau.ac.nz perl -e 'print $i=pack(c5,(41*2),sqrt(7056),(unpack(c,H)-2),oct(115),10);' ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] Raidz vdev size... again.
On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 5:32 PM, Scott Lawson wrote: > One thing you haven't mentioned is the drive type and size that you are > planning to use as this > greatly influences what people here would recommend. RAIDZ2 is built for > big, slow SATA > disks as reconstruction times in large RAIDZ's and RAIDZ2's increase the > risk of vdev failure > significantly due to the time taken to resilver to a replacement drive. Hot > spares are your friend! Well these are Seagate 1.5TB SATA disks. So.. big slow disks ;) > You did also state that this is a system to be used for backups? So > availability is five 9's? > > Are you planning on using Open Solaris or mainstream Solaris 10? Mainstream > Solaris > 10 is more conservative and is capable of being placed under a support > agreement if need > be. Nope. Home storage (DVDs, music, etc) - I'd be fine with mainstream Solaris, the only reason I went with SXCE was for the in-kernel CIFS, which I wound up not using anyway due to some weird bug. ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] Raidz vdev size... again.
Michael Shadle wrote: On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 4:51 PM, Scott Lawson wrote: If possible though you would be best to let the 3ware controller expose the 16 disks as a JBOD to ZFS and create a RAIDZ2 within Solaris as you will then gain the full benefits of ZFS. Block self healing etc etc. There isn't an issue in using a larger amount of disks in a RAIDZ2, just that it is not the optimal size. Longer rebuild times for larger vdev's in a zpool (although this is proportional to how full the pool is.). Two parity disks gives you greater cover in the event of a drive failing in a large vdev stripe. Hmm, this is a bit disappointing to me. I would have dedicated only 2 disks out of 16 then to a single large raidz2 instead of two 8 disk raidz2's (meaning 4 disks went to parity) No I was referring to a single RAIDZ2 vdev of 16 disks in your pool. So you would lose ~2 disks to parity effectively. The larger the stripe, potentially the slower the rebuild. If you had multiple vdevs in a pool that were smaller stripes you would get less performance degradation by virtue of IO isolation. Of course here you lose pool capacity. With smaller vdevs, you could also potentially just use RAIDZ and not RAIDZ2 and then you would have the equivalent size pool still with two parity disks. 1 per vdev. One thing you haven't mentioned is the drive type and size that you are planning to use as this greatly influences what people here would recommend. RAIDZ2 is built for big, slow SATA disks as reconstruction times in large RAIDZ's and RAIDZ2's increase the risk of vdev failure significantly due to the time taken to resilver to a replacement drive. Hot spares are your friend! I was still operating under the impression that vdevs larger than 7-8 disks typically make baby Jesus nervous. You did also state that this is a system to be used for backups? So availability is five 9's? Are you planning on using Open Solaris or mainstream Solaris 10? Mainstream Solaris 10 is more conservative and is capable of being placed under a support agreement if need be. ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] Raidz vdev size... again.
On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 4:51 PM, Scott Lawson wrote: > If possible though you would be best to let the 3ware controller expose > the 16 disks as a JBOD to ZFS and create a RAIDZ2 within Solaris as you > will then > gain the full benefits of ZFS. Block self healing etc etc. > > There isn't an issue in using a larger amount of disks in a RAIDZ2, just > that it > is not the optimal size. Longer rebuild times for larger vdev's in a zpool > (although this > is proportional to how full the pool is.). Two parity disks gives you > greater cover in > the event of a drive failing in a large vdev stripe. Hmm, this is a bit disappointing to me. I would have dedicated only 2 disks out of 16 then to a single large raidz2 instead of two 8 disk raidz2's (meaning 4 disks went to parity) I was still operating under the impression that vdevs larger than 7-8 disks typically make baby Jesus nervous. ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] Raidz vdev size... again.
Leon, RAIDZ2 is ~equivalent to RAID6. ~2 disks of parity data. Allowing a double drive failure and still having the pool available. If possible though you would be best to let the 3ware controller expose the 16 disks as a JBOD to ZFS and create a RAIDZ2 within Solaris as you will then gain the full benefits of ZFS. Block self healing etc etc. There isn't an issue in using a larger amount of disks in a RAIDZ2, just that it is not the optimal size. Longer rebuild times for larger vdev's in a zpool (although this is proportional to how full the pool is.). Two parity disks gives you greater cover in the event of a drive failing in a large vdev stripe. /Scott Leon Meßner wrote: Hi, i'm new to the list so please bare with me. This isn't an OpenSolaris related problem but i hope it's still the right list to post to. I'm on the way to move a backup server to using zfs based storage, but i don't want to spend too much drives to parity (the 16 drives are attached to a 3ware raid controller so i could also just use raid6 there). I want to be able to sustain two parallel drive failures so i need raidz2. The man page of zpool says the recommended vdev size is somewhere between 3-9 drives (for raidz). Is this just for getting the best performance or are there stability issues ? There won't be anything like heavy multi-user IO on this machine so couldn't i just put all 16 drive in one raidz2 and have all the benefits of zfs without sacrificing 2 extra drives to parity (compared to raid6)? Thanks in Advance, Leon ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss -- ___ Scott Lawson Systems Architect Manukau Institute of Technology Information Communication Technology Services Private Bag 94006 Manukau City Auckland New Zealand Phone : +64 09 968 7611 Fax: +64 09 968 7641 Mobile : +64 27 568 7611 mailto:sc...@manukau.ac.nz http://www.manukau.ac.nz perl -e 'print $i=pack(c5,(41*2),sqrt(7056),(unpack(c,H)-2),oct(115),10);' ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
[zfs-discuss] Raidz vdev size... again.
Hi, i'm new to the list so please bare with me. This isn't an OpenSolaris related problem but i hope it's still the right list to post to. I'm on the way to move a backup server to using zfs based storage, but i don't want to spend too much drives to parity (the 16 drives are attached to a 3ware raid controller so i could also just use raid6 there). I want to be able to sustain two parallel drive failures so i need raidz2. The man page of zpool says the recommended vdev size is somewhere between 3-9 drives (for raidz). Is this just for getting the best performance or are there stability issues ? There won't be anything like heavy multi-user IO on this machine so couldn't i just put all 16 drive in one raidz2 and have all the benefits of zfs without sacrificing 2 extra drives to parity (compared to raid6)? Thanks in Advance, Leon pgpMhQAOptNlB.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
