Re: [ZION] demonizing the media
I would imagine it is common sense and an attempt to preserve sources on the part of the local and national media. Unlike Australia or the UK and possibly Canada, the Police Commissioner can't declare a story media free, so to speak, I can't think of the act they use, but it has blanket applications when the authorities think they need it here. So good on the media assisting the Police and FBI etc., to find the sniper and apprehend the bast. Now I am concerned about what goes fro sub-judice in the USA, having watched Larry King Live last night, I was very concerned. All the guests, including some relatives were guessing and commenting on those who had only been charged with fire arms offences at that time. Clifford M Dubery - Original Message - From: Marc A. Schindler Sent: Saturday, 26 October 2002 15:03 To: zion-l Subject: [ZION] demonizing the media We like to demonize the media, but there appears to have been unprededented cooperation between the media and the police in the Washington sniper case. What do people think about this? Is it self-censorhsip or just common sense? -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland “We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated…To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise one’s unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action.” – Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in “The Peloponessian Wars” Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / REE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
[ZION] demonizing the media
We like to demonize the media, but there appears to have been unprededented cooperation between the media and the police in the Washington sniper case. What do people think about this? Is it self-censorhsip or just common sense? -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
[ZION] James Ossuary
It looks like North Americans will ge their first chance to see the ossuary at the Royal Ontario Museum in Toronto: <<http://www.globeandmail.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/front/RTGAM/20021025/wxromm25/Front/homeBN/breakingnews>> -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
[ZION] Patriotism
>From a liberal sourc sent to me by left-wing (non-LDS) uncle. Some interesting points nevertheless: VISITING TEACHING CONFERENCE Tonight at 7pm WE INVITE ALL VISITING TEACHERS TO PLEASE ATTEND THIS VERY IMPORTANT MEETING. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
[ZION] What is patriotism?
>From www.straighthoofd.com, a left-wing e-zine: (make of it what you will; I post it because it does make some good points despite its ideological assumptions) America armed with patriotism Dateline: Friday, October 11, 2002 Commentary by Larry Solway I am in Cincinnati, the heartland of Republican America, the home of President Taft, Senator Taft and Governor Taft. It is where George Bush chose to make his latest shoot-em-up speech about the inevitable war with Iraq. It worked. Not only because he spoke before an audience of the converted, but because America was waiting for a compelling signal, waiting for the call to their patriotism. In America, unlike Canada, where we have trouble being patriotic, their sense of being American falls somewhere between patriotism and hubris. They are awash in flags, as if the showing of a flag marks you indelibly as a true American. They are also at war with themselves, wanting to believe that the Presidency is somewhere between sublime and superhuman. They want desperately to believe that the war with Iraq is a holy war, not only against terrorism but also against evil waiting to be visited on a peace-loving world. So they arm themselves with flags and love of baseball, with truth and honesty, with words like transparency and freedom. So armed, they can sally forth secure in the knowledge that, not only is their cause just and right, it is what the world needs. I am in no way un-American. I am devoutly anti-Republican and anti-government-quick-on-the-draw. To the thousands of Canadians who flock to the Stars and Stripes forever, I say "Good luck and Godspeed." I only hope their devotion to the American ideal does not cloud their ability to think clearly. Make no mistake about it: Saddam Hussein is a complete scoundrel. If he thought he could get away with it, he would take over the Middle East and reign supreme as protector of Islam. (It would be his version of Islam, because most people know he is not devout, and parades anything else simply for the sake of expediency.) On the other hand, we have the axis of Bush-Chaney-Rumsfeld. What a triumvirate. The President is a mental lightweight. The Vice President is the evil power behind the throne, the man who walked away from his insider misdeeds at Halliburton Oil. (Remember too that two of the three of the sacred triumvirate are oilmen.) Then there is Rummy. He has visions of some kind of military sugarplums dancing in his head. He is and was a devout right-wing fundamentalist who lost his senate seat to a dead man's wife. Perhaps what irritates me most is that the Iraq war is an extension of American vanity. In his speech Bush won even more hearts with his "proof" of the duplicity of Saddam and the certainty that he has weapons of mass destruction and unless he is stopped forthwith will arm terrorists with them and those terrorists will attack the entire free world. I feel sorriest for America when I realize that they have forgotten (or seem to have developed amnesia) over the tragic sight of American boys being returned in body bags. Is a possible threat worth a pre-emptive war, which will cost thousands of lives on both sides? Is the pre-emptive strike better than waiting to see if Saddam blinks and that he will truly disarm? Or do we have to face the reality that what the Bush-Cheney twosome really want is $20 a barrel oil. I worry also that a country finds its "truth" in its dead. Watching Ken Burns' Civil War on PBS I was reminded about how holy that holocaust has become; how much tribute is paid to the sacrifices that created the crucible in which a great and free America was built. Notwithstanding that apparent truth, the South is still awash in Confederate battle flags and racism. One generation learns to fear and hate war. Another learns to honour it. We are not immune. I still hear Canadians refer to the slaughter at Ypres during the Great War that helped create our sense of ourselves as Canadians. We do not need it. Our fellow Americans do not need it. Mothers with boys do not need it. But they cheered in Cincinnati. Related addresses: URL 1: www.straightgoods.ca/Surveys/021016.cfm -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors empl
RE: [ZION] Secret societies
At the risk of belaboring the obvious, let me point out that under the definitions and descriptions given in these encyclopedia entries John has mentioned, the Church, and specifically the works of the temple, would undoubtedly qualify as a secret society. (Of course, I consider it no such thing, as I suspect most here do not, but those who wrote the cited entries almost certainly would.) Stephen / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] From Canadian Encyclopedia
Secret Societies Secret Societies are sometimes seen as religious, philosophical or spiritual sects that confer upon their initiates a certain mystery; the mystery is patiently and meticulously maintained and gradually made accessible, in succeeding stages, through the performance of secret rites designed to purify the fortunate elect. At other times, secret societies are seen as seditious political organizations, clandestine economic associations, criminal groups, ideological movements with revolutionary intentions, or occult interest groups. They may also be viewed as agencies for mutual aid, support, brotherhood, charity or good works. In order to attract the attention of the curious or the spiritualistic, a group generally need only indulge in clandestine activities (eg, the FREEMASONS), have an unusual series of rites and customs (many social clubs), or maintain a certain secrecy around initiation ceremonies (some Native groups). Myth-makers capitalize on one's interest in the immaterial and supernatural to maintain in initiates and aspirants the superrational element necessary for any lasting socialization. Historically, all secret societies, whether brotherhoods, trade guilds, mystery societies, initiating associations and spiritualist societies or, more simply, closed associations with specific economic, political or religious purpose, have or have had their own oaths, rituals, customs and secret languages to promote and maintain necessary group solidarity. All have adopted signs of recognition and passwords, rhythmic chants and other ways of reminding one another of their society's moral conditions of behaviour. All have developed and followed successive stages to the attainment of secret knowledge or power, periods of apprenticeship and trial, and an often intricate hierarchy. All have evolved internal ceremonies capable of separating the neophyte from the member of long standing, the profane from the chosen. All have identified themselves with certain moral principles and beliefs that distinguish them from that which surrounds them and is therefore foreign or subordinate to them. All have given a sacred significance to their existence. It is therefore not very helpful to attempt to differentiate between secret societies and other organizations on the basis of distinctions of place (primitive societies, Western societies), culture (Caribbean, Germanic, Slavic or American Protestant societies), religion (ORDRE DE JACQUES- CARTIER, ORANGE ORDER), nationality (Amerindian, Spanish, Italian, Irish or French) or sex (witches or high priests). Secret societies have been in existence at least since the date of the earliest known writings. Some have served utilitarian ends, others speculative; some have been visible, others invisible, except to government information services, which have always been aware of their existence. Each has based its existence on a secret, the secret of its mystery, purpose, direction, ritual or, more generally, its organization. ULTIMATELY, WHAT HAS AT ALL TIMES AND IN ALL PLACES DISTINGUISHED SECRET SOCIETIES FROM OTHER ASSOCIATIONS IS THAT THE FORMER ARE ORGANIZED IN A MANNER PARALLEL TO, BUT OFTEN ABOVE, OFFICIAL FORMS OF GOVERNMENT, WHATEVER THOSE FORMS MAY BE. [emaphsis by Redelfs] In Canada, secret societies were often founded by ethnic groups, particularly the Irish; the Whiteboys and the United Irishmen were active before 1812 and the FENIANS (Irish Republican Brotherhood) during the Confederation period. Farm and labour organizations like the Grange and KNIGHTS OF LABOR began as secret societies. Today, the best-known societies are the Freemasons, Orange Order, Ordre de Jacques- Cartier, Opus Dei and, at certain periods, the KU KLUX KLAN. See also NEW RELIGIOUS MOVEMENTS. Author: G.-RAYMOND LALIBERTÉ The 1998 Canadian Encyclopedia, 09-06-1997. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
[ZION] Secret Societies
I found this interesting. I thought that some others here might also. --- SECRET SOCIETY secret society, organization of initiated persons whose members, purposes, and rituals are kept secret. Human groups throughout history have maintained secret societies. The ceremonies of initiation into such a society typically begin with an oath pledging secrecy as to all proceedings of the society, ascribing special obligations to its members, and assenting to penalties for violation of the oath. This is followed by tests of the candidate's worthiness, including physical courage and even painful mutilations. A dominant theme in the initiation trials of most of these societies is the symbolism of death and rebirth. After the candidate has passed the prescribed tests, the secret knowledge is transmitted to him. Secret societies have served as schools in which the elders instruct the young men in the ways of their society. These initiations are reminiscent of coming-of-age ceremonies. Women have comparable societies, but theirs have never matched those of men in number. (A notable exception was the Hung Society of China, a secret society of women that lasted over 1,500 years.) The mysteries, or secret rites and doctrines, of the Egyptians, the Persians, the Greeks, the Romans, and other ancient peoples were transmitted solely through secret societies. In modern civilizations secret societies such as Freemasonry are numerous. They usually offer various types of mutual aid for their members; there are, for example, special obligations to members who are ill and to the families of deceased members. Some historic secret societies, such as the Bavarian Illuminati, have been the object of massive paranoid speculation, accused of conspiring for world political domination; but the model of the secret society, with its emphasis on absolute commitment and secret truths that set the initiate apart, has been used to explain various political groups from terrorists to Cold Warriors. Some secret societies, e.g., the Mafia and the Ku Klux Klan, under the guise of fraternal benevolence, have defended the interests of their members by violence. See also fraternal orders, fraternity. Bibliography See J. H. Lepper, Famous Secret Societies (1932); A. Daraul, A History of Secret Societies (1962); J. M. Roberts, The Mythology of the Secret Societies (1972). The Columbia Encyclopedia, Seventh Edition, 01-01-2002. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] The Jerusalem Temple
Concerning this event, Wilford Woodruff said in 1855: When the Gentiles reject the Gospel it will be taken from them, and go to the House of Israel, to that long-suffering people that are now scattered abroad through all the nations upon the earth, and they will rebuild Jerusalem their ancient city, and make it more glorious than at the beginning, and they will have a leader in Israel with them, a man that is full of the power of God and the gift of the Holy Ghost; but they are held now from this work, only because the fulness of the Gentiles has not yet come in. (Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p. 200. Italics added.) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Jerusalem temple
>He stated that Mormons >would probably help the Jews build the temple, because we are one of the >few peoples on earth who still have that skill/capability. My Institute >director was on that trip, Brother Perritt, so I got it first hand. This is shop talk and it means nothing. If the Jews really want the Mormons to build them a temple unto the Lord that is fine but they need to realize that they won't be able to go therein until they qualify for a temple recommend. Temples are built for saints; not unbelievers. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Jerusalem temple
>I have two thoughts on this, somewhat differing in scope. >First, I believe the Lord could allow the Jews to rebuild a temple, based >on the Mosaic/Terrestrial Law. It would not have all the power and >blessings of a temple built on the laws of the Celestial Kingdom and >Melchizedek Priesthood. It would require priests, direct descendents from >Aaron to offer sacrifice and enter the Holy of Holies. Gary, I don't understand the reasoning that goes along with your thought. The Jews are descendents of apostates and they and their appointees can't officiate in the name of the Lord because they have no priesthood whatsoever. Outside of Mormonism there is no one authorized to perform animal sacrifice and the Jews know nothing about the sacred covenants of the priesthood and have rejected Jesus Christ who is the whole purpose behind the animal sacrifice. Any sacrifice performed by Jews would be a mockery and just as invalid as the baptism performed by a Catholic priest. I don't believe the Jews could build a temple unto the Lord. If the Catholics can't do it, neither can the Jews. Don't you believe Elder McConkie when he said the temple would be built by the Church? Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] ah, relief!
CNN now reports as breaking news (16:20 CDT): Montgomery County, Maryland, to charge sniper suspects John Muhammad, John Malvo with six counts of murder; Malvo to be tried as adult. Details to come. Dan R Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > >Sandy: >On top of all this, Alabama can file its own capital >murder charge in connection with the robbery that happened >there. /Sandy/ > >Dan: >Apparently they already have, and I've read elsewhere that this makes them >the first jurisdiction to do so. > >http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/marylandshootings021025.html > >"Prosecutors in Alabama have decided to seek the death penalty for the two >prime suspects in the sniper shootings that terrorized the Washington, >D.C., area in a killing in their state and officials in Maryland say they >will file murder charges against the two men by the end of the day, as >federal officials and authorities in seven jurisdictions discuss how to >prosecute the pair." / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] High Priest
-Gary- > And I've done some research and determined that those who > mentioned previously that [bishop] is a position in the > Aaronic Priesthood are partially incorrect. I don't recall anyone saying it was a position in the Aaronic Priesthood; rather, they said it was an office in the Aaronic Priesthood. I believe this is beyond all dispute. If you have evidence to the contrary, I'd love to see it. > Those who receive it otherwise (not of Aaron's lineage), receive > it as an office in the Melchizedek Priesthood. I have never heard of "bishop" being considered a Melchizedek Priesthood office, except in the sense that the Aaronic Priesthood is a subset of the Melchizedek Priesthood, and therefore all Aaronic Priesthood offices (deacon, teacher, priest, and bishop) form a part of the structure of the Melchizedek Priesthood. Obviously, current Church practice specifies that any bishop hold the office of high priest, but that doesn't negate the fact that "bishop" is an Aaronic Priesthood office. Stephen / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] High Priests
On Fri, 25 Oct 2002 07:09:09 -0400, "Elmer L. Fairbank" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > At 03:13 10/25/2002 +, St Stephen wrote: > > >Perhaps you should tell Elders Maxwell, Nelson, and Hilbig about Occam's > >razor, so they can get their acts together. > > What's a razor? Till, a razor is that thing wives use on their legs to make sure that they can scratch your legs up with theirs simply by rubbing them against you a few days later. I know! My wife has one! Scott (who wouldn't want to touch one of those horrid razor things!) -- Buttered bread always lands butter side * Would YOU mistake these as down (Unless it sticks to the ceiling!) * anyone`s opinions but my own? Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Scott McGee) Web: http://scott.themcgees.org/ -- http://fastmail.fm - Email service worth paying for. Try it for free / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] High Priest
The keys stay with the position, not with the person. An elder's quorum president, once released, is an elder. Same with a stake president being a high priest. However, a bishop remains a bishop, just without the active keys. It is not just a position, but an office in the priesthood. And I've done some research and determined that those who mentioned previously that it is a position in the Aaronic Priesthood are partially incorrect. That only applies to direct descendants of Aaron, who have a right to it due to lineage. Those who receive it otherwise (not of Aaron's lineage), receive it as an office in the Melchizedek Priesthood. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Stephen: >If a man who has previously served as elder's quorum president, then >been released, is again called to serve, he does not need to have the >keys given him. He already has them. The same applies to a former bishop >who is called to serve again as bishop, or a former stake president >called to serve again as stake president, etc. Mark, Larry, Till, >correct me if I'm wrong, but this is my understanding. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] High Priests have money
Yes, I know that Nibley says it is a free lunch, but he also says we still must work. What I was meaning, is that there are laws of work governing worldly wealth. The person who works hard and smart tends to live a more comfortable life than someone who is sloth or not so wise in their dealings with money. For example, all the GAs have paid their tithes, ensuring that the Lord would open the windows of heaven up to them. Second, they have all worked hard to live within their means, staying out of debt, ensuring their moneys were being used in the best ways possible, rather than just to pay down interest debt. Third, they have been industrious enough to make for a comfortable living. Fourth, they have put the kingdom of God first, and their other worldly works second, ensuring God's assistance financially and in other matters. So, they HAVE earned these blessings given of God. Do you think they would have these same blessings if they weren't paying their tithes? They wouldn't qualify to be GAs or high priests w/o paying tithes, so there is a bit of "earning" one has to do. Perhaps the term "qualify" would better suit you? Either way, it isn't totally a free gift, as there are some qualifications to receive all from God. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe ELF: Not so sure I agree, Gary. Reference Approaching Zion Chapters 4 and 5. Not so sure earned is the correct choice of terms here. Till Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Figure the Odds
This morning, the chief of police of Montgomery Alabama signed out a warrant for the two snipers. They passed through here in Sept and shot two women working at a state liquor store, killing one of them. A police officer who chased them got a great look at Mohammed, and immediately picked him out of a lineup. The young man's fingerprint has been found on a magazine they left behind. They will be charged with capitol murder, and the city will seek the death penalty for both. It may be that we have the stronger evidence against these guys, and being they hit here first and we've charged them first with a capitol crime, we may actually get to prosecute them (and hang 'em) before anyone else does. Down here, we can declare a 17 year old an adult, so the kid isn't getting away on this one. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] James' Ossuary
I just received my Nov/Dec Biblical Archaeology Review magazine in the mail. I'll read it over the next day or so and let you know what it says in more detail than the news reports have given. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Jerusalem temple
I have two thoughts on this, somewhat differing in scope. First, I believe the Lord could allow the Jews to rebuild a temple, based on the Mosaic/Terrestrial Law. It would not have all the power and blessings of a temple built on the laws of the Celestial Kingdom and Melchizedek Priesthood. It would require priests, direct descendents from Aaron to offer sacrifice and enter the Holy of Holies. The other idea came around back in 1978, when a bunch of Institute instructors and their wives went on a summer trip to the Middle East. In Jerusalem, they spoke to the head of the main Jewish religion there, and one question that came up was the future temple. He stated that Mormons would probably help the Jews build the temple, because we are one of the few peoples on earth who still have that skill/capability. My Institute director was on that trip, Brother Perritt, so I got it first hand. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Paul: I think we have been here before. It's a good subject. I say that the Jews can't build a temple that the Lord will accept. A temple must be built and consecrated to the Lord Jesus Christ and the Jews cannot do that. The temple in Jerusalem will be built by the LDS church for in behalf of Mormon Jews. The LDS church is the only people under the heavens that can perform such a work. To think that the Jews will build a temple outside of the authority of the Mormons is just like saying the Jehovah's Witnesses can do so too. There is no scriptural reference to support such an idea. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] The Jerusalem Temple
There's been quite a bit of excavation done on Mt Moriah over the past decade. There are scholars who are convinced they know where the Holy of Holies for Herod's temple was by excavations going under the mount. Most scholars reading the temple scroll today believe that the Essenes (or whoever group it was) believed the entire city of Jerusalem was a part of the temple, just as the tribes of Israel were a literal part of the tabernacle they surrounded. For this reason, the Essenes thought it sacrilege to bury anyone within the walls of the Old City. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Marc: FWIW, a lot of people assume Mt. Zion is the temple mount, but it's not, it's to the west and isn't quite as prominent as Mt. Moriah. I made special note to look to see what's there now, at the summit. It's basically a parking lot for a Greek Orthodox seminary and monastery which is built on the western slopes of the "mountain" (as a geographical feature it's hardly impressive -- you have to have someone point it out to you, or study maps very carefully). Also, the Western Wall, or "wailing wall" is *not* the original Herodian temple. That was completely destroyed, so that one stone did not stand upon another, as a reader of the NT will remember. The wall is actually part of a structure built by the Turks, believe it or not. There's still controversy over where exactly on Mt. Moriah the original temples (whichever of the 3 versions you're looking at, Solomon's, Nehemiah's or Herod's) you look at. And the temple scroll of the DSS describes a temple which would cover more than the existing area of all of Old Jerusalem (that part currently enclosed by the Turkish walls, from the Jaffa Gate to the Damascus Gate and cutting across David's city and part of Mt. Zion). Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] The Jerusalem Temple
On Thu, 24 Oct 2002 12:10:37 -0500, "Paul Osborne" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > >We know that a temple will be built in Jerusalem before the Second > >Coming. > >Question: will the temple in Jerusalem have to be built > >and dedicated under the authority and supervision of the Melchizedek > >priesthood? Or will unbelieving Jews find some way of building a real > >temple without authority from God? > > I think we have been here before. It's a good subject. I say that the > Jews can't build a temple that the Lord will accept. I disagree. The Jews have all the information to build the Temple carefully recorded in the Old Testament. They have to find some of the descendants of Levi to preside. These descendants have a right to the Aronic Preisthood which (unless I am mistaken) is what was used with the original Temple. I think that after the second coming, they will have to have it rededicated by the Melchizedek Priesthood before it can be used for the temple rights that we perform. Scott -- Buttered bread always lands butter side * Would YOU mistake these as down (Unless it sticks to the ceiling!) * anyone`s opinions but my own? Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Scott McGee) Web: http://scott.themcgees.org/ -- http://fastmail.fm - I mean, what is it about a decent email service? / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] James' Ossuary
On Thu, 24 Oct 2002 07:56:37 -0400, "Elmer L. Fairbank" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > At 20:33 10/23/2002 -0800, BLT wrote: > > >Maybe with satellite technology they will eventually solve the riddle of > >the Ark > >who knows what they might find? > > > Maybe even that pen I set down somewhere and can't seem to recall where. > > Till (or single socks!) Till, we know the cause of single socks. It is a sacrifice demanded by the Washing Machine God for his work. I have found, however, that if you put a rubber band around the top of a pair, they generally don't get sacrificed! I guess someone else's unpaired sock is selected instead as an easier target. Scott -- Buttered bread always lands butter side * Would YOU mistake these as down (Unless it sticks to the ceiling!) * anyone`s opinions but my own? Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Scott McGee) Web: http://scott.themcgees.org/ -- http://fastmail.fm - IMAP accessible web-mail / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] ah, relief!
Sandy: On top of all this, Alabama can file its own capital murder charge in connection with the robbery that happened there. /Sandy/ Dan: Apparently they already have, and I've read elsewhere that this makes them the first jurisdiction to do so. http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/marylandshootings021025.html "Prosecutors in Alabama have decided to seek the death penalty for the two prime suspects in the sniper shootings that terrorized the Washington, D.C., area in a killing in their state and officials in Maryland say they will file murder charges against the two men by the end of the day, as federal officials and authorities in seven jurisdictions discuss how to prosecute the pair." / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests
Mark >Several of the Brethren have stated that since the Nephites were not Levites they never >did have the Aaronic priesthood even when under the law of Moses. Therefore, so >state these same Brethren, the Nephites always only had the Melchizedek priesthood. >They further state (IIRC) that they could officiate in the ordinances of the law of >Moses through the authority of the Melchizedek priesthood. Correct. The Nephites did not officiate in the Aaronic priesthood until after the Savior appeared to them. All priesthood administration in the BoM before Christ was in the high priesthood which is after the order of the Son of God. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] High Priests
-Mark- > Moroni talks about teachers and priests. This is several > hundred years after Christ, so the Nephites had the Melchizedek > priesthood at that time and were not under the law of Moses. True enough. I was referring to earlier, pre-Resurrection references to teachers and priests. But you bring up an interesting point: > Several of the Brethren have stated that since the Nephites were > not Levites they never did have the Aaronic priesthood even when > under the law of Moses. I did not realize this, having never heard these statements; but now that you mention it, it seems pretty obvious that the Nephites would not have had the Levitical Priesthood. Duh. The Moroni reference is interesting. The term "priest" itself implies a Priesthood office, and Moroni 4-5 show that priests as well as elders could consecrate the sacrament, which as far as I know is purely a Priesthood function. Furthermore, Moroni 3 talks about the *ordination* of priests and teachers, the identical wording (or the same ideas, if the prayer is not meant to be verbatim) used in each, suggesting that both "priest" and "teacher" were Priesthood offices. Since the Nephite post-Resurrection office of priest had the authority to administer the sacrament, it's tempting to say that those two offices were identical to the Aaronic Priesthood offices of "priest" and "teacher" that we have today. However, your mention above of the teachings of our leaders, which I assume to be correct (do you have an actual citation(s)?), demonstrates that the Nephites were not in possession of the Aaronic Priesthood; so if "teacher" and "priest" were in fact Priesthood offices, as seems likely, they must have been offices in the Melchizedek Priesthood. Other possibilities? Maybe the Nephites had some other type of "lesser Priesthood", similar to our Aaronic Priesthood, and these were offices in that other Priesthood. Seems farfetched, but I have heard others talk about what they term "the Patriarchal Priesthood" as a separate thing from the Melchizedek Priesthood, or more correctly a subset of it. I have done no study of this issue, and the argumentation I've heard on it is most unconvincing; but if such a thing actually existed, then it's possible there was yet another Nephite Priesthood subset, similar to the Levitical/Aaronic and the Patriarchal. Another idea, one that to me seems more likely: If Joseph's use of the term "ordain" in translating Moroni 3 is taken more broadly, maybe as synonymous with "set apart", another possibilitiy presents itself. Perhaps "priest" and "teacher" did not refer to administrative/functional capacities that today we call "offices". Maybe they were more akin to what we today would term "callings", like "ward missionary" and "gospel doctrine teacher". The "elders" of the Nephite church in later times referred to the "disciples", meaning specifically the leaders selected by Christ, or the "virtual apostles" of the Nephites. Maybe all Nephite Priesthood leaders were called "elder". In that case, Moroni's statement that the elders or priests administered the sacrament would be like saying that the Church leaders or sacrament-administrators (i.e. those specifically authorized to administer the sacrament) took care of that ordinance. All speculation, of course; but knowing that the Aaronic Priesthood did not exist among the Nephites, and without further historical information, it may be the best we can do. > They further state (IIRC) that they could officiate in the > ordinances of the law of Moses through the authority of the > Melchizedek priesthood. This makes sense. Since the Aaronic Priesthood is a part of the higher Priesthood, it is reasonable that any holder of the higher Priesthood could officiate in a duty of the lesser Priesthood. Stephen / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] High Priests
-Tilly- > What's a razor? He's the guy whut grows the crops. Stephen / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] High Priests
- Stephen - Though this is off the main thread, it's an interesting side thread. I don't agree that "teacher" was a Melchizedek Priesthood office for the Nephites; the Melchizedek Priesthood was not generally held among the Jews, so I don't see why it would have been generally held among the Nephites, who were after all Jews and who were therefore under the law of Moses. === Moroni talks about teachers and priests. This is several hundred years after Christ, so the Nephites had the Melchizedek priesthood at that time and were not under the law of Moses. Several of the Brethren have stated that since the Nephites were not Levites they never did have the Aaronic priesthood even when under the law of Moses. Therefore, so state these same Brethren, the Nephites always only had the Melchizedek priesthood. They further state (IIRC) that they could officiate in the ordinances of the law of Moses through the authority of the Melchizedek priesthood. = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- ___ Get your free email from http://mymail.operamail.com Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] ah, relief!
Paul Osborne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>[Heidi Page] I'm so relieved that those two men have >>been arrested and it appears that >>these are the guys! What an answer to prayers! > >Now all they have to look forward to is long legal proceedings and jail >time. They will never see the light of day. --- And that's even assuming the death penalty isn't invoked. At this point, the Federal government can theoretically prosecute with the death penalty because one of the victims was an FBI agent. And both Maryland and Virginia have state death penalty statutes. That's three different jurisdictions that can try the defendants with the death penalty. Not only that, but the defense wouldn't be able to mount a "double jeopardy" argument because each of the shootings were distinct, separate events and could therefore be prosecuted individually (at the very least, there could be a different trial in each state). On top of all this, Alabama can file its own capital murder charge in connection with the robbery that happened there. /Sandy/ / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] ah, relief!
>I'm so relieved that those two men have been arrested and it appears that >these are the guys! What an answer to prayers! Now all they have to look forward to is long legal proceedings and jail time. They will never see the light of day. They will have a tough time in the prison system and will probably find themselves to be victims as they are attacked in prison by those who hear of their heinous crimes. It won't be very pleasant for them. I've heard that the so-called prison code of justice can be quite effective. You can be assured that they will pay a dear and heavy price in this life. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] ah, relief!
I'm so relieved that those two men have been arrested and it appears that these are the guys! What an answer to prayers! Heidi the fair (who is feeling like a huge burden has been lifted from my mind) Heidi Page [EMAIL PROTECTED] / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] High Priests
At 03:13 10/25/2002 +, St Stephen wrote: Perhaps you should tell Elders Maxwell, Nelson, and Hilbig about Occam's razor, so they can get their acts together. What's a razor? Till / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] The Jerusalem Temple
At 12:46 10/24/2002 -0700, Uncle Dan wrote: We might be in for a surprise here. The key, I think, is in the actual consecration of the temple. The Jews will probably build it, as a temple, but it won't actually meet the Lord's requirements until consecrated by His church. Consider that you can receive the same blessing of safety in your home that you could by being in a temple, but there is no requirement that it's construction be performed by His church in anyway. I think that the Jerusalem Temple will have to be built by the Israelites living there as part of their covenant. they won't have the authority to consecrate it, but the actual construction could be done in the faith that God will provide the means once it's accomplished. That's where His church would step in. Very good observation, Dan. It certainly resonates as a possible scenario. Till / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Definition of "liberal"
At some point in the past, Gary wrote: > here's a stump question: Can anyone tell me the name of the Democratic > Georgia Senator who tends to vote frequently with the Republicans and > Bush? (I know the answer, and I can tell you that if there were more > guys in the Democratic party like him- who vote on principle and not on > party platform, I'd possibly vote Democrat). Being a voter from Georgia, this one is too easy for me to pass up. None other than Zig-Zag Zell Miller. It sure is nice to get some of them right. I mean, surely you didn't mean Max Cleland. Bill Lewis AKA Cousin Bill [EMAIL PROTECTED] Guess what! I'm published! Check out this link: http://www.writers-and-publishers.com/ebooks / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
