[ZION] Disarming revisionist gun-grabbers
http://www.nationalreview.com/seckora/seckora102802.asp October 28, 2002, 10:00 a.m. Bellesiles Is Out A professor at the center of controversy is forced to resign. Emory University announced on Friday afternoon that it had accepted the resignationof history professor Michael Bellesiles, the author of Arming America: The Origins of a National Gun Culture. The award-winning book stirred up controversybecause it appeared to confirm what many scholars already believed: that the Second Amendment protects only a collective right to bear arms and that individual gun rights were unimportant to America's Founders. The facts, however, were not there to back up Bellesiles's contention. Emory also released a 40-page indictment of the author's research composed by an investigative committee of three distinguished historians, as well as Bellesiles's seven-page response. The basic thesis of Arming America is that there were very few guns in early America and that most of the guns that did exist were old and broken. Bellesiles first published an article on the subject in 1996, in the Journal of American History a piece that was named "Best Article of the Year" by the Organization of American Historians. The book, which was uncritically embraced by the likes of Edmund Morgan and Garry Wills, won the 2001 Bancroft Prize, the most-prestigious prize in American-history writing. But over the past year, Arming America has been at the center of a scandal. Bellesiles miscounted, misinterpreted, and made up substantial portions of the information Arming America is based on, his critics have contended. The earliest revelations of Bellesiles's academic irresponsibility focused on nonexistent probate records that he claimed to have read in San Francisco and in Providence, R.I. It turns out that the San Francisco records were destroyed in a 1906 earthquake and fire, and many of the Providence wills that Bellesiles says he read never existed. Bellesiles has also claimed that all of his research notes were destroyed in a flood in his campus office, a story that people at Emory familiar with the flood have cast doubt on. After questions were repeatedly raised in the press and in faculty workshops at Columbia, Yale, and other major universities, Emory's dean, Robert A. Paul, convened an expert panel of historians to investigate the charges against Bellesiles earlier this year. The committee was chaired by Stanley N. Katz of Princeton, and included Hanna H. Gray, a former president of the University of Chicago, and Laurel Thatcher Ulrich of Harvard. The committee's investigation focused on Bellesiles's use of probate records, which the New York Times has called "Mr. Bellesiles's principal evidence." Of particular interest was a key table on which the author's thesis is grounded. "Evaluating Table One is an exercise in frustration because it is almost impossible to tell where Bellesiles got his information. His source note lists the names of 40 counties, but supplies no indication of the exact records used or their distribution over time. After reviewing his skimpy documentation, we had the same question as [one reviewer] Gloria Main: 'Did no editors or referees ever ask that he supply this basic information?' The best that can be said about his work with the probate and militia records is that he is guilty of unprofessional and misleading work." The committee also agreed with Professor James Lindgren of Northwestern University that the entire scandal could have been avoided with "more conventional editing" by The Journal of American History and with Ohio State's Randolph Roth, who determined that Bellesiles's numbers were "mathematically improbable or impossible." Additionally, the committee found that "no one has been able to replicate Bellesiles's results [on low percentage of guns] for the places or dates he lists"; that he conflated wills and inventories which "greatly reduced the percentage of guns in estates"; took a "casual approach" to gathering data; "[raised] doubts about his veracity" in claiming to have worked with records in California; and raised questions about his use of microfilm at the National Archives Record Center in East Point, Ga. They also called implausible Bellesiles's claim that false data on his website was put there by a hacker, and his disavowal of e-mails that he wrote to researchers, giving the wrong location for almost all of his probate research. In a statement, Bellesiles said, "All that remains in question are the few paragraphs and table on probate materials. On those paragraphs, Emory's committee of inquiry found no evidence of fabrication, though they do not charge evasion. I adamantly deny both charges. I have never fabricated evidence of any kind nor knowingly evaded my responsibilities as a scholar. I have never consciously misrepresented any data or evidence. I will continue to research and report on the probate mate
RE: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?
"Secular" seems to be a far more significant in our world and time. ACLU advocates will not permit us to neglect the "wall of separation" invented to introduce a new, post-modern meaning to the term. In a scriptural context, any attempt to draw lines between religious and secular seems largely artificial. The distinction, for example, between religious organizations and governments was apparently largely nonexistent in OT times, and in the Book of Mormon history as well. Even during the NT era, religion and government were fairly well intertwined. I would have thought that this point would be fairly academic to those who are familiar with the scriptures. --- Mij Ebaboc / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] how do we know we are real?
At 08:52 PM 11/4/02, Gary Smith wrote: I believe it was Renee DesCartes who said, "I think, therefore I have a headache." No, wait. "I think, therefore I like green eggs and ham." No. "I think, therefore I am." Yeah, that's it. The problem is that the *converse* of that statement is demonstrably not true . . . --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Righteous wars
Here's a talk given in the April 1942 Gen Conference by Pres David O
McKay on war and the reasons to enter in. I found it very interesting.
The only question after this that I have then, is whether the US is
starting a war with Iraq or just continuing a war with Iraq
Hm
K'aya K'ama,
Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www
.geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html
"No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." -
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
President David O. McKay
Second Counselor in the First Presidency
With a number of young men from each of many wards in the Church serving
somewhere in the terrible conflict now raging, it is easily understood
why our minds are turned toward the deprecation of war, and to the hope
for peace. Thoughts of loved ones are pretty closely linked with their
soldier boys in army encampments. There are many, too, who should like to
know what the attitude of the Church is toward the present war. This is a
fitting day and occasion on which to consider this subject.
Easter, as you know, is an ancient spring festival with which Christendom
has long since associated the resurrection of Jesus Christ. The Savior's
resurrection is the most glorious event in the history of mankind. It
proclaims the victory of the soul over death, and the existence and
progression of the individual personality beyond the grave.
The resurrected Lord's first greeting to His disciples, in the evening of
that memorable day, was "Peace be unto you ."
And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then
were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you. (John 20:20-21)
That was His message, too, at the last meeting He had with them before
his crucifixion. Said He: "These words I have spoken unto you that in me
ye might have peace."
The peace of Christ abides in the heart. It is an individual blessing.
But it is a condition to be enjoyed also by groups of individuals, and to
that end His disciples were to declare peace to the world.
On this Easter Day, the Risen Christ beholds in the world not peace, but
war.
In the face of the tragic condition among mankind, honest thinking men
and women ask how is it possible to reconcile the teachings of Jesus with
the participation of the Church in armed conflict.
War is basically selfish. Its roots feed in the soil of envy, hatred,
desire for domination. Its fruit, therefore, is always bitter. They who
cultivate and propagate it spread death and destruction, and are enemies
of the human race.
War originates in the hearts of men who seek to despoil, to conquer, or
to destroy other individuals or groups of individuals. Self exaltation is
a motivating factor; force, the means of attainment. War is rebellious
action against moral order.
The present war had its beginning in militarism, a false philosophy which
believes that "war is a biological necessity for the purification and
progress of nations." It proclaims that Might determines Right, and that
only the strongest nations should survive and rule. It says, "the
grandeur of history lies in the perpetual conflict of nations, and it is
simply foolish to desire the suppression of their rivalry."
War impels you to hate your enemies. The Prince of Peace says, Love your
enemies. War says, Curse them that curse you. The Prince of Peace says,
Pray for them that curse you. War says, Injure and kill them that hate
you. The Risen Lord says, Do good to them that hate you.
WAR INCOMPATIBLE WITH THE TEACHINGS OF THE SAVIOR
Thus we see that war is incompatible with Christ's teachings. The gospel
of Jesus Christ is the gospel of peace. War is its antithesis, and
produces hate. It is vain to attempt to reconcile war with true
Christianity.
In the face of all this, I shall seem inconsistent when I declare that I
uphold our country in the gigantic task it has assumed in the present
world conflict, and sustain the Church in its loyal support of the
government in its fight against dictatorship.
In justification of this seeming in-consistence, I shall not attempt to
prove that there are occasions when Jesus would approve of a nation's
starting a war. That He used force to drive from the temple the money
changers, and other desecrators of the House of God, is a fact; but only
a misapplication of the text can make that incident a justification for
one Christian nation's going to war against another. On that occasion, as
on all occasions, Jesus opposed and denounced wrong. With the strength of
fiery indignation and of his own moral force, and not merely with a whip
of small cords, Jesus drove the self-convicted desecrators from the
temple.
Neither shall I attempt to prove that He favored war when He said: "Think
not that I come to send peace on earth; I came not to send peace but a
sword." ("Matt. 10:34) They who would quote this saying as indicating
that Jesus approves of war surely put a strained interpretation on its
[ZION] how do we know we are real?
I believe it was Renee DesCartes who said, "I think, therefore I have a headache." No, wait. "I think, therefore I like green eggs and ham." No. "I think, therefore I am." Yeah, that's it. We can ponder our own existence, real or not. However, since I experience things, why should I worry if I'm real? As long as I think it, then it is real to me. BTW, who wrote, "I feel, therefore I am."? K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Paul: How do we know we are real? This whole thing could be the day dreaming of a God who is looking at the future. The scriptures prove in the revelation saying "He lives" but how do we know that we really live? Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] scriptures are not secular?
Elder McConkie wrote that Eve really wasn't created from the rib of Adam, that it was symbolic of their equality. I guess that means it isn't a secular history, eh? There is history in the Bible and BoM. However, they weren't written to be secular histories. They were written primarily to be books of holy writings, with history intermingled. A secular history concentrates on the historical side. Had the Bible and BoM been secular histories, we would have very little on the religious information except as it fit into the regular history. Instead, Nephi tells us that his book of secular history was contained on the large plates (history of kings, wars, etc), and the small plates (BoM) were to concentrate primarily on spiritual issues. Is Isaiah a secular history? No. Are there historical issues in it? Yes. But it concentrates on spiritual themes, not on secular history. Same with most of the writings in the Bible, with few exceptions (like Esther or Chronicles). Adam, Abraham, Moses, Noah, Jesus are all historical people. However, how to know if every story in the Bible is historical concerning them is another thing. Just looking at the many extra-Biblical writings there are telling stories on Abraham, Seth, Noah, Melchizedek, and others, show us that these ancient stories may or may not be true. Many ancient stories about Jesus' childhood are obviously faith-promoting, but false stories. Yet thousands of early Christians believed these stories. Does that make them historical? No. And in this same vein, we are not sure just which specific stories are totally accurate in the Bible. We already know that the Songs of Solomon is uninspired, according to Joseph Smith. But how do we know other issues? King David was historical, however archaeology suggests that his kingdom wasn't as great as it is described in the Bible. Did David's scribes "enhance" his victories to establish him as a great regional king? Archaeology also shows that Jericho didn't have the "walls tumbling down" when Joshua fought it. Joshua is historical, but the Bible isn't a secular history. It was written for two things: to make Jehovah as great (or greater) than the other regional gods, and to show the Israelites conquering everyone. But today's evidence shows there was little conquest, and mostly just integration with other Semites/Canaanites in the area. In fact, the Bible also suggests this as we see many nations dwelt in their midst. Dan seems to disappear from the Bible, probably being absorbed among the Sea Peoples (according to Trude Dothan, Philistine and Sea People expert). So, Marc is right. There is history, and these are historical people. But since the Bible wasn't written as a secular history, we don't know how much is actual history and how much is propaganda to make Israel look bigger and more important than it originally was among the other nations. The BoM also isn't a secular history, as I said above. There are hundreds of years covered in just a few pages (Omni, Jarom), which isn't usually done in a secular history. A secular history also wouldn't cover so much preaching. Also, it would concentrate on the kings' activities, rather than the chief priests. It is a spiritual history with historical events included. BTW, had it been a secular history, it would probably be easier to find where the Nephites and Lamanites really were on the American continent, because it would have described their cities, rivers, and events better. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Paul: If this was so, the apostles and prophets from Joseph Smith on would have told us so. everything I have ever heard from modern prophets teaches that the old history of the world is true and historical unless you choose to believe that our religion is based upon lies, fairy tales, and faith promoting nonsense. I suppose you might also think Moses was a myth because there is not one scrap of credible evidence of Moses or the Israelites in Egypt and I hope you don't choose to argue this point with me because you will loose big time. So beware! Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Guns, Germs...
I look at such ideas as a way to expand possibilities and learning in my own life. Joseph F Smith said it should all be considered scaffolding used to help build the actual building of true knowledge. Since we don't have exact information on how long the creation took for example, we really don't know what the exact process is that God used. So, we can often get the same uncertainty in the scriptures as we find in science. I don't turn away from science. I use it as scaffolding to help me learn to understand the things in this world. I understand that it is based upon theory, so it doesn't phase me when it blatantly contradicts the scriptures. I know there will be unanswered questions. Rather than run away from it, I do as JFS suggested, and use it all as possible scaffolding. God doesn't condemn us for keeping an open mind on non-doctrinal things. Now, we could argue on what denotes "doctrine", however as individuals we each must make that determination for ourselves. I think there are too many members who run away from learning, because it would force them to consider new ideas that may help them accept the gospel on a higher level. I don't consider you one of those people, John, otherwise you wouldn't be on these lists discussing such things. An example: are the proper names for Jesus and God really Jehovah and Elohim? They have been standardized as such in the church for about 80 years (since 1919). However, in Joseph Smith's day, the name Jehovah was a title that was used interchangeably for Father and Son (see how Joseph used Jehovah in the Kirtland dedicatory prayer, DC 109). Most members never learn that God truly is nameless, as no name can contain all He is. The most we can do is use name-titles to describe him. I love science, as someday I will have to use it (along with math, language, art, etc) to form my own worlds. Developing and testing theories helps me to develop my critical thinking skills. These I believe are necessary to recognize truth from error, but also to help me in problem solving (which God obviously does much of). So, even though science may be far fromthe truth in some areas, accepting some ideas as theoretical scaffolding allows me to use those theories until a greater truth is found. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe JWR: > > Part of the reason I turned away from science to religion is because I > despaired of learning anything with any certainty when the foremost > authorities in almost every field disagree with fellow scientists about > really basic things. I have a real need for at least some questions to > have conclusive answers. Otherwise, life is just a constantly changing > dream bound by no laws and consequently all over the map. I know very > little "for sure," but what little I do know I have learned from the > scriptures, the modern prophets, and the testimony of the Holy Ghost. > Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Guns, Germs and Steel
Anyone here remember that old cartoon about the swing? There are about half a
dozen ridiculous drawings of a simple swing in ridiculous configurations, which
go from: what the salesman booked, what the marketeer spec'ed, what the engineer
built, and so on, until the final one was a simple rope with a tire at the end,
labelled "what the customer wanted".
Dan R Allen wrote:
> Marc:
> In other words, what engineers do every day as they try to figure out how
> the
> heck to apply a scientific theory to the real world ;-) [see my sig]
>
> "Argh?!? You built it just like I _told_ you!?!"
>
> Dan R Allen wrote:
>
> > What is a SWAG? I don't recognize the acronymn. --JWR
> >
> > Larry:
> > Scientific wild- _ _ _ guess.
> >
> > There are other meanings, as well, but that's the primary
> > one in most common use.
> >
> > Dan:
> > Thanks Larry, that's the one I was using.
> > The "Scientific" is meant to imply that the person making the SWAG is
> > basing it on some valid data that doesn't extend far enough to make the
> > SWAG a serious prediction - it's a confidence level thing.
> >
>
> --
> Marc A. Schindler
> Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
>
> "The first duty of a university is to teach wisdom, not a trade; character,
> not
> technicalities. We want a lot of engineers in the modern world, but we
> don't want
> a world of engineers." ? Sir Winston Churchill (1950)
>
> Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
> author
> solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author's
> employer,
> nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.
>
> /
>
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>
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--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
The first duty of a university is to teach wisdom, not a trade; character, not
technicalities. We want a lot of engineers in the modern world, but we dont want
a world of engineers. Sir Winston Churchill (1950)
Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.
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Re: [ZION] The veil
Have a YA dance, and line all the YW up one wall and the YM up the other, and then pair them off ;-) Actually this isn't original -- I believe Wilford Woodruff actually proposed something similar, although I don't know if it was tongue-in-cheek or not. My only experience with arranged marriages has been second hand, with Muslim friends. We had a marketing assistant at a company I worked for, with whom I worked fairly closely. She was originally from Pakistan but was secular and non-practising, and in fact it turned out I knew more about Islam than she did when I first met her (she didn't even know what Ramadan was when I wished her an "Eid Mubarak" once*). But all of a sudden she started getting interested in her religion when her parents told her they were arranging her marriage for her. She herself said she was the most shocked of all, and then shocked that she got over the shock so quickly, once she talked to others in her parents' circle of friends. She ended up getting married to an engineer from Karachi and both live here in Edmonton, but although they consider themselves to be observant Moslems, they also live pretty westernized lives; neither wishes to return to Pakistan (and not for economic reasons, as both come from very elite families, but for social reasons and because they like a democratic, open society). *incidentally, for those with Moslem friends and acquaintances, Ramadan this year nominally starts this Wednesday, iirc. I say "nominally" because it's never official until the crescent moon is first sighted in Mecca. I guess they don't accept inductive logic ;-) It's customary to wish Moslems "Eid Mubarak", pronounced eed moo-BAHR-uk, at the end of Ramadan, during the Feast, Eid al-Fitr, a 3-day celebration which is culturally speaking their counterpart to Christmas. Eid is "festival, feast, fest" and "mubarak" is "blessed, happy" (cf. the name of the current president of Egypt, Hosni Mubarak). In a kind of cross-cultural borrowing, the Greek counterpart, Makarios, which is the word that begins each of the beatitudes in the original Greek, is also a Greek surname -- for a while in the 70s, iirc, the leader of Cyprus was one Archbishop Makarios. Stacy Smith wrote: > How does one get an arranged marriage if one might wish one? I'm mad it > seems it can't be done in this culture. > > Stacy. > > At 08:49 PM 11/04/2002 +, you wrote: > > >On Tue, 29 Oct 2002 18:21:53 -0900, "John W. Redelfs" > ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > > > I do not think it is possible to fall out of love with your wife, at > > > least > > > not the kind of love I think of when I use the term. True love lasts > > > forever or it isn't true love. > > > >Well, you could get into a big semantic discussion on exactly what is > >meant by the words, but yes, it can happen. It did to me. I remember the > >feeling when I realized it. I talked with my bishop and he basically told > >me to repent. I did so, and fell back into love with her. > > > >Unfortunately, I guess she must have fallen out of love with me, or at > >least gave up on our commitments as bout a year later she left me for > >some guy she met on the internet. > > > >This kind of falling out of love is not the same as drifting apart. We > >had done that already or it wouldn't have happened. I think that falling > >out of love (the real think like I experienced) is more akin to falling > >into transgression until you can't feel the spirit. It is still there, > >but you are incapable of feeling it because of your own actions. If the > >person who has "fallen out of love" corrects the inapropriate behavior > >that causes it, the love will (pardon the use of this expression, but it > >is appropriate here) "shine through" again and they will effectively fall > >back into love. This correction requires confirmation of commitments, > >ceasing to dwell on what you perceive as the other's faults (true faults > >or not) and generally making an effor to think of them in ways > >appropriate to someone who is your spouse. > > > >This is one reason that I think arranged marriages work as well as they > >often do. Both spouses go into the marriage knowing that they have to > >build a relationship. This is the important part. Modern couples think > >that the physical attractions _IS_ the relationship and thus often put no > >effort into it. Once the initial physical passion wears off, the > >"relationship" is over and they end up divorced in a few years or even > >months. > > > >It is too bad in my case that I didn't do this earlier and know more > >about what was happening. I might have saved my marriage. On the other > >hand, I would have lost out, too, as I would not now have Jo as my wife. > >The price I paid (and still pay) in getting to the point I was at when we > >got to know each other is horrible to think about, but she _does_ help > >make up for it. > > > >Scott > >-- > >Buttered bread always lands butter side * Would YOU mistake these as > >down (Unless it sticks
Re: [ZION] The veil
Oh Dear Scott:
I had no idea what you have been through. I get off of ZION for
a few years, and everything falls apart!!
As I read between the lines, I see a great deal of suffering and
sorrow and am reminded of what Eve said in the Garden--that we must needs
pass through sorrow in order to know joy.
I'm sure you are beginning to experience some of this. [and of
course, there is a pun here too--you will notice that
Joy starts with JO. (get it? you must needs pass through sorrow in
order to know JOy??)]
Anyway, as I sat listening to that in the temple on Friday, it
really meant more to me then it ever has before in my life. It was sad
when my dad died--I cried and thought that was the worst. But in a
couple of months, I was doing pretty good. I remember appreciating
little things a lot more. But, losing my spouse has been much worse. I
have never experienced greater sorrow than losing Tom. Never. It
doesn't mean there won't be greater sorrows ahead, but for me, right now,
this is it. It's been a bit over 7 months, and I still am not doing very
well.
However, I must say that the gospel, the teachings, the
scriptures, have made this transition for me MUCH easier. I cannot
imagine going through this without it. I was not ready--emotionally or
financially--and trying to rebuild both at the same time is a real
struggle. (of course, when it rains it pours--in June I was doing the
"good Mormon mother" thing and taking my inactive boys to see the Nauvoo
Temple open house when my van's tranny died and there I was, stranded in
the middle of Illinois. $1600 for repairs, $300. for car rental etc.
etc. )
I cannot tell you how grateful I am for a ward family who stepped
up, and continues to step up, to help me out. (Not to mention the ward
members in Ottawa, Illinois who housed us and fed us. What a relief. We
did make it to the Open House, and in fact did almost everything I had
planned.)
Even my cynical teenage son has been impressed at how "connected"
we are through the gospel. It's more than just a "church"
connection--it's much deeper. I believe that most members of the Church
truly "mourn with those that mourn, comfort those that stand in need of
comfort and bear one another's burdens that they may be light." I've
experienced it first-hand and am still in awe of how incredible it is.
I know, I've rambled--my heart is just full and I wanted you, Scott, to
know how much we care about you and that we DO feel the pain of what
you've been through--maybe not as intensely, but we do know and
understand it.
your sis in Mishawaka, Indiana (licking wounds inflicted from Boston
College--it was definitely the Green Jerseys!)
val
On Mon, 4 Nov 2002 20:49:48 UT Scott McGee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
writes:
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Re: [ZION] Guns, Germs and Steel
Marc:
In other words, what engineers do every day as they try to figure out how
the
heck to apply a scientific theory to the real world ;-) [see my sig]
"Argh?!? You built it just like I _told_ you!?!"
Dan R Allen wrote:
> What is a SWAG? I don't recognize the acronymn. --JWR
>
> Larry:
> Scientific wild- _ _ _ guess.
>
> There are other meanings, as well, but that's the primary
> one in most common use.
>
> Dan:
> Thanks Larry, that's the one I was using.
> The "Scientific" is meant to imply that the person making the SWAG is
> basing it on some valid data that doesn't extend far enough to make the
> SWAG a serious prediction - it's a confidence level thing.
>
--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
"The first duty of a university is to teach wisdom, not a trade; character,
not
technicalities. We want a lot of engineers in the modern world, but we
don't want
a world of engineers." ? Sir Winston Churchill (1950)
Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author's
employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.
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Re: [ZION] Guns, Germs and Steel
In other words, what engineers do every day as they try to figure out how the
heck to apply a scientific theory to the real world ;-) [see my sig]
Dan R Allen wrote:
> What is a SWAG? I don't recognize the acronymn. --JWR
>
> Larry:
> Scientific wild- _ _ _ guess.
>
> There are other meanings, as well, but that's the primary
> one in most common use.
>
> Dan:
> Thanks Larry, that's the one I was using.
> The "Scientific" is meant to imply that the person making the SWAG is
> basing it on some valid data that doesn't extend far enough to make the
> SWAG a serious prediction - it's a confidence level thing.
>
--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
The first duty of a university is to teach wisdom, not a trade; character, not
technicalities. We want a lot of engineers in the modern world, but we dont want
a world of engineers. Sir Winston Churchill (1950)
Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.
/
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Re: [ZION] The veil
How does one get an arranged marriage if one might wish one? I'm mad it seems it can't be done in this culture. Stacy. At 08:49 PM 11/04/2002 +, you wrote: On Tue, 29 Oct 2002 18:21:53 -0900, "John W. Redelfs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > I do not think it is possible to fall out of love with your wife, at > least > not the kind of love I think of when I use the term. True love lasts > forever or it isn't true love. Well, you could get into a big semantic discussion on exactly what is meant by the words, but yes, it can happen. It did to me. I remember the feeling when I realized it. I talked with my bishop and he basically told me to repent. I did so, and fell back into love with her. Unfortunately, I guess she must have fallen out of love with me, or at least gave up on our commitments as bout a year later she left me for some guy she met on the internet. This kind of falling out of love is not the same as drifting apart. We had done that already or it wouldn't have happened. I think that falling out of love (the real think like I experienced) is more akin to falling into transgression until you can't feel the spirit. It is still there, but you are incapable of feeling it because of your own actions. If the person who has "fallen out of love" corrects the inapropriate behavior that causes it, the love will (pardon the use of this expression, but it is appropriate here) "shine through" again and they will effectively fall back into love. This correction requires confirmation of commitments, ceasing to dwell on what you perceive as the other's faults (true faults or not) and generally making an effor to think of them in ways appropriate to someone who is your spouse. This is one reason that I think arranged marriages work as well as they often do. Both spouses go into the marriage knowing that they have to build a relationship. This is the important part. Modern couples think that the physical attractions _IS_ the relationship and thus often put no effort into it. Once the initial physical passion wears off, the "relationship" is over and they end up divorced in a few years or even months. It is too bad in my case that I didn't do this earlier and know more about what was happening. I might have saved my marriage. On the other hand, I would have lost out, too, as I would not now have Jo as my wife. The price I paid (and still pay) in getting to the point I was at when we got to know each other is horrible to think about, but she _does_ help make up for it. Scott -- Buttered bread always lands butter side * Would YOU mistake these as down (Unless it sticks to the ceiling!) * anyone`s opinions but my own? Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Scott McGee) Web: http://scott.themcgees.org/ -- http://fastmail.fm - Email service worth paying for. Try it for free / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Guns, Germs and Steel
Sorry. I guess that's one episode I don't remember, although something vaguely
rings a bell. Or something rings a vague bell. Or vaguely rings a somewhat bell.
"Elmer L. Fairbank" wrote:
> At 11:34 11/4/2002 -0700, M Marc wrote:
> >?
> >I don't get it.
> >
> >"Elmer L. Fairbank" wrote:
> >
> > > At 22:01 11/1/2002 -0700, M Marc wrote (and wrote):
> > > > So maybe to me I see a "turdus migratoris"
> > > >[guess why I've always remembered *this* one!!] but my 4-year old
> > > >granddaughter
> > > >sees a "robin" and her little 2-year old friend sees a "birdie." And
> > is it the
> > > >European robin or the New World robin? They're not the same.
> > >
> > > Are you suggesting that coconuts migrate?
> > >
> > > Till the helpful
> > >
>
> Hint: Monty Python
>
> Till
>
> /
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> /
>
--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
The first duty of a university is to teach wisdom, not a trade; character, not
technicalities. We want a lot of engineers in the modern world, but we dont want
a world of engineers. Sir Winston Churchill (1950)
Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.
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RE: [ZION] Guns, Germs and Steel
Dan Allen: Thanks Larry, that's the one I was using. The "Scientific" is meant to imply that the person making the SWAG is basing it on some valid data that doesn't extend far enough to make the SWAG a serious prediction - it's a confidence level thing. ___ Larry: Ah yes, the confidence level thing. Reminds me of the time in the Wizard of Id when Sir Rodney the Knight was interviewing applicants for the position of stable hand. He says to one applicant, It says here that you were a rocket scientist. I find that hard to believe. To which the applicant replies, Do you want someone who can shovel it or not? Dan: Hey now, I resemble that remark 8^) / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Guns, Germs and Steel
Dan Allen: Thanks Larry, that's the one I was using. The "Scientific" is meant to imply that the person making the SWAG is basing it on some valid data that doesn't extend far enough to make the SWAG a serious prediction - it's a confidence level thing. ___ Ah yes, the confidence level thing. Reminds me of the time in the Wizard of Id when Sir Rodney the Knight was interviewing applicants for the position of stable hand. He says to one applicant, It says here that you were a rocket scientist. I find that hard to believe. To which the applicant replies, Do you want someone who can shovel it or not? Larry Jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] The veil
On Tue, 29 Oct 2002 18:21:53 -0900, "John W. Redelfs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > I do not think it is possible to fall out of love with your wife, at > least > not the kind of love I think of when I use the term. True love lasts > forever or it isn't true love. Well, you could get into a big semantic discussion on exactly what is meant by the words, but yes, it can happen. It did to me. I remember the feeling when I realized it. I talked with my bishop and he basically told me to repent. I did so, and fell back into love with her. Unfortunately, I guess she must have fallen out of love with me, or at least gave up on our commitments as bout a year later she left me for some guy she met on the internet. This kind of falling out of love is not the same as drifting apart. We had done that already or it wouldn't have happened. I think that falling out of love (the real think like I experienced) is more akin to falling into transgression until you can't feel the spirit. It is still there, but you are incapable of feeling it because of your own actions. If the person who has "fallen out of love" corrects the inapropriate behavior that causes it, the love will (pardon the use of this expression, but it is appropriate here) "shine through" again and they will effectively fall back into love. This correction requires confirmation of commitments, ceasing to dwell on what you perceive as the other's faults (true faults or not) and generally making an effor to think of them in ways appropriate to someone who is your spouse. This is one reason that I think arranged marriages work as well as they often do. Both spouses go into the marriage knowing that they have to build a relationship. This is the important part. Modern couples think that the physical attractions _IS_ the relationship and thus often put no effort into it. Once the initial physical passion wears off, the "relationship" is over and they end up divorced in a few years or even months. It is too bad in my case that I didn't do this earlier and know more about what was happening. I might have saved my marriage. On the other hand, I would have lost out, too, as I would not now have Jo as my wife. The price I paid (and still pay) in getting to the point I was at when we got to know each other is horrible to think about, but she _does_ help make up for it. Scott -- Buttered bread always lands butter side * Would YOU mistake these as down (Unless it sticks to the ceiling!) * anyone`s opinions but my own? Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Scott McGee) Web: http://scott.themcgees.org/ -- http://fastmail.fm - Email service worth paying for. Try it for free / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] OJ thoughtfully considers new info
http://www.msnbc.com/news/822149.asp?cp1=1 Stephen / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Guns, Germs and Steel
What is a SWAG? I don't recognize the acronymn. --JWR Larry: Scientific wild- _ _ _ guess. There are other meanings, as well, but that's the primary one in most common use. Dan: Thanks Larry, that's the one I was using. The "Scientific" is meant to imply that the person making the SWAG is basing it on some valid data that doesn't extend far enough to make the SWAG a serious prediction - it's a confidence level thing. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Guns, Germs and Steel
At 11:34 11/4/2002 -0700, M Marc wrote: ? I don't get it. "Elmer L. Fairbank" wrote: > At 22:01 11/1/2002 -0700, M Marc wrote (and wrote): > > So maybe to me I see a "turdus migratoris" > >[guess why I've always remembered *this* one!!] but my 4-year old > >granddaughter > >sees a "robin" and her little 2-year old friend sees a "birdie." And is it the > >European robin or the New World robin? They're not the same. > > Are you suggesting that coconuts migrate? > > Till the helpful > Hint: Monty Python Till / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Guns, Germs and Steel
A general book like Diamond's is not "part of the scholarly record." It's
intended for the general public. For those who want scholarly treatments, he
provides a long list of recommended reading related to each chapter of the book.
"Elmer L. Fairbank" wrote:
> At 13:27 11/1/2002 -0900, BLT wrote:
>
> >It seems to me that an honest scholar would just stick to writing things
> >he can authenticate using the documentary record, or at least the
> >archaeological record. In the absence of such records the author isn't
> >just engaging in unfounded supposition, he is engaged in irresponsible
> >guessing and wild speculation. That is, he is just making up the
> >story. Such a book is fiction, not nonfiction.
>
> Ah, yes, but now it becomes part of the scholarly record, to be quoted ad
> nauseum, with the wild speculation becoming more and more a concrete truth
> with every scholarly citation.
>
> Till
>
> /
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--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
The first duty of a university is to teach wisdom, not a trade; character, not
technicalities. We want a lot of engineers in the modern world, but we dont want
a world of engineers. Sir Winston Churchill (1950)
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Re: [ZION] Guns, Germs and Steel
Then Diamond's book is not for you.
"Elmer L. Fairbank" wrote:
> At 23:13 11/1/2002 -0900, BLT wrote:
> Otherwise, it is just a long essay on "how I look at things."
>
> Till prefers very short essays on how he looks at things.
>
>
--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
The first duty of a university is to teach wisdom, not a trade; character, not
technicalities. We want a lot of engineers in the modern world, but we dont want
a world of engineers. Sir Winston Churchill (1950)
Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
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Re: [ZION] Guns, Germs and Steel
Well put. Scientists do not use words the way lay people do, and it can be
confusing if you don't know the "code."
Gary Smith wrote:
> No, it is postulating a theory. Once a theory is set out for all to read,
> then it is up to the rest of us to disprove the theory by testing it
> against known evidences. That does not yet make it a fact, as future
> evidence can always refute a theory. Without theories, we would not
> advance in science or knowledge. The danger comes when we convince
> ourselves that a theory is a fact, when in fact, it isn't.
>
> K'aya K'ama,
> Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www
> .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html
> "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." -
> Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
>
> JWR:
> It seems to me that an honest scholar would just stick to writing things
> he
> can authenticate using the documentary record, or at least the
> archaeological record. In the absence of such records the author isn't
> just engaging in unfounded supposition, he is engaged in irresponsible
> guessing and wild speculation. That is, he is just making up the
> story. Such a book is fiction, not nonfiction.
>
>
>
>
>
> Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
>
> Only $9.95 per month!
>
> Visit www.juno.com
>
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--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
The first duty of a university is to teach wisdom, not a trade; character, not
technicalities. We want a lot of engineers in the modern world, but we dont want
a world of engineers. Sir Winston Churchill (1950)
Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.
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Re: [ZION] Guns, Germs and Steel
?
I don't get it.
"Elmer L. Fairbank" wrote:
> At 22:01 11/1/2002 -0700, M Marc wrote (and wrote):
> > So maybe to me I see a "turdus migratoris"
> >[guess why I've always remembered *this* one!!] but my 4-year old
> >granddaughter
> >sees a "robin" and her little 2-year old friend sees a "birdie." And is it the
> >European robin or the New World robin? They're not the same.
>
> Are you suggesting that coconuts migrate?
>
> Till the helpful
>
>
--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
The first duty of a university is to teach wisdom, not a trade; character, not
technicalities. We want a lot of engineers in the modern world, but we dont want a
world of engineers. Sir Winston Churchill (1950)
Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor
those of any organization with which the author may be associated.
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Re:Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?
-- "Elmer L. Fairbank" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: At 15:23 11/3/2002 -0600, St Paul (not Minnesota) wrote: >Also, maybe our whole religious experience is self induced with naturally >occurring chemicals in our brains that make us wishy washy? Maybe the >whole thing is a joke? Maybe we don't even really exist. Would someone >pinch me please? Maybe our whole universe is just an atom in God's big toe? Careful not to stub your toe, God** Till Kinda like Horton--who hears a Who. We are just a speck?? on a Speck?? Sometimes that is how I feel looking up at the vast universe. It is almost incomprehensible that we will understand it all someday. val Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Guns, Germs and Steel
At 14:03 11/3/2002 -0900, BLT wrote: I'm just a black and white kind of guy. Yes, I noticed that about your hair, last time I saw you, John. 8>)) Till / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?
At 15:23 11/3/2002 -0600, St Paul (not Minnesota) wrote: Also, maybe our whole religious experience is self induced with naturally occurring chemicals in our brains that make us wishy washy? Maybe the whole thing is a joke? Maybe we don't even really exist. Would someone pinch me please? Maybe our whole universe is just an atom in God's big toe? Careful not to stub your toe, God** Till ** Loosely quoted from Odd Bodkins / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Reconstructing the Clinton legacy
At 18:04 11/2/2002 +, Gib Mij wrote: I'm always confused by this peculir application of the term "women's rights". I'd kinda like to know exactly what constitutes the analogous "men's rights". The right to work, pay taxes and die. Till the helpful / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Guns, Germs and Steel
At 23:13 11/1/2002 -0900, BLT wrote: Otherwise, it is just a long essay on "how I look at things." Till prefers very short essays on how he looks at things. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Guns, Germs and Steel
At 22:01 11/1/2002 -0700, M Marc wrote (and wrote): So maybe to me I see a "turdus migratoris" [guess why I've always remembered *this* one!!] but my 4-year old granddaughter sees a "robin" and her little 2-year old friend sees a "birdie." And is it the European robin or the New World robin? They're not the same. Are you suggesting that coconuts migrate? Till the helpful / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Guns, Germs and Steel
At 15:53 11/1/2002 -0900, BLT wrote: The oldest secular writings, from ancient Sumer, also speak of a Great Flood. Yes, but they were obviously primitive unenlightened people, whose superstitions count for nothing in the light of scientific truth and so must be brushed away with all the other human debris that came before. They weren't as "advanced" as we of the enlightenment, the glorious age of knowledge and reason; those whose conceit knows no bounds. Till the cynical / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Guns, Germs and Steel
At 15:29 11/1/2002 -0900, BLT wrote: Was Ammon defending a flock of turkeys when he cut all those guys arms off? Till thinks that he was defending the sheep FROM flocks of turkeys! / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Guns, Germs and Steel
At 13:27 11/1/2002 -0900, BLT wrote: It seems to me that an honest scholar would just stick to writing things he can authenticate using the documentary record, or at least the archaeological record. In the absence of such records the author isn't just engaging in unfounded supposition, he is engaged in irresponsible guessing and wild speculation. That is, he is just making up the story. Such a book is fiction, not nonfiction. Ah, yes, but now it becomes part of the scholarly record, to be quoted ad nauseum, with the wild speculation becoming more and more a concrete truth with every scholarly citation. Till / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Guns, Germs and Steel
No, it is postulating a theory. Once a theory is set out for all to read, then it is up to the rest of us to disprove the theory by testing it against known evidences. That does not yet make it a fact, as future evidence can always refute a theory. Without theories, we would not advance in science or knowledge. The danger comes when we convince ourselves that a theory is a fact, when in fact, it isn't. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe JWR: It seems to me that an honest scholar would just stick to writing things he can authenticate using the documentary record, or at least the archaeological record. In the absence of such records the author isn't just engaging in unfounded supposition, he is engaged in irresponsible guessing and wild speculation. That is, he is just making up the story. Such a book is fiction, not nonfiction. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Symbolic Distractions
Jim, We have the INS, FBI, CIA and the AARP checking into your cryptic message to determine whether you were sending a terrorist message to any Islamic or right wing fundamentalists on the list. We noted the word "stab". Does that connote a violent action with a weapon? If one guess is as good as another, then I suspect you should expect a visit from your local constabulary pronto. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 05:47:09 + From: Jim Cobabe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Symbolic distractions This message is symbolic, therefore it cannot be construed to contain any particular meaning. Take a stab in the dark, interpret it however you like. One guess is as good as another. --- Mij Ebaboc Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
