[ZION] Thomas Murphy and similar theorists
Here's an article from an Arizona paper which is a good summary of the current state of science. But note the tradition of the Apache, Franklin Stanley. [thanks to David H. Bailey on Eyring-L for drawing my attention to this] Also, the article's a bit provincial and makes one mistake. The Athapaskans are also known as the Dene, and the Apache and Navajo are, along with the Tsuu Tina (Sarcee) of Calgary, mere exclaves of the main Athapaskan area, which stretches from northern Saskatchewan into the Yukon and up to Great Bear Lake and the Mackenzie Delta. Also, while the Aleuts settled only in Alaska, it's very limiting to say that the Eskimo settled in Alaska without any further comment; fact is there are far more Inuit (as we call them) in Canada and Greenland than in Alaska. The mistake he makes is about Clovis. It is no longer considered to be the oldest remains -- Monte Verde in Chile now has that distinction. And we also have remains of human (or whatever) activity in the Cardston area which date back to the very end of the last ice age. In fact the Eastern Slopes of the Rockies was an important migration route. http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/history_culture/10_11_02origins.html -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
[ZION] temp conversion
Aaaahhh, but the old saying still holds true about finding a nice heavyset mate: Warmth in the winter and shade in the summer!!! ;-) Couldn't resist! K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe You wrote: >I too sweat profusely. I am overweight and suffer from the same sort of >prejudice. I have had to repeatedly explain to people that the nerves >that sense temperature are on the OUTSIDE of the fat, not the inside, so >whether my skin indicates the temperature is high or not is not dependant >on my weight. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Two Towers
The only one I'm aware of is the Back to the Future Series. Episodes 2 and 3 were made simultaneously. However, they aren't as complicated as the LOTR, and they only did two episodes at once, not all three. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Mark: For those who have not read the book but have seen the movie, "The Two Towers" is far more action packed. Your senses will reel at the visual and aural onslaught. Not _my_ senses of course. I will be drinking it in with a large funnel. Since the second movie was shot at the same time as the first, the feel is essentially seamless. This is something never before seen in any major motion picture series. In fact, has any set of movies ever been shot in this way before? Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] comparing rebellions
Those LDS authors all sound alike to me. It probably was Evans I was thinking of. although, some of Card's stuff should be banned on the same pretexts being used, also. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Are you referring to the new novel by Richard Paul Evans, or did Scott get one banned, also? Larry Jackson Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] True Christians
Regardless, in 1836 when the revelation was given, Alvin still had not been baptized, but was considered by God good enough to be in a vision of the Celestial Kingdom. This tells me that the man was accepted as a 'true' Christian. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Mark: Joseph Smith had the vision in 1836 in the Kirtland temple. In the vision he saw his father, mother and Alvin in the celestial kingdom. However, his father and mother were still alive when Joseph Smith had the vision. Therefore, the vision was of the future, after Alvin's temple work would have been completed. No one enters the Celestial Kingdom without baptism if they die after reaching the age of accountability. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] True Christians
You are thinking of the short mortal term we live in. All will bow the knee and profess Christ as Lord. The majority of them will eventually accept Christ, and though they may not merit the Celestial Kingdom, they still will accept the gospel someday. It is just that they will not have the ability to live all of the gospel, and so will not be celestial material. Even we will have to go through a perfecting and learning period before receiving godhood (DC 130). If one must be exalted before being a true Christian, then no one (not even Christ) was a true Christian as a mortal. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe JWR: Even if they are kind, loving and generous Muslims, Buddhists, and Hindus? All these who are honorable will inherit the Terrestrial Kingdom. By what stretch are they considered Christian? --JWR Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] True Christians
So, until you get your eating habit under control, you aren't following the D&C, and this means you aren't a true Christian because you aren't following the prophets? I definitely wouldn't be considered one under your definition, either, since there are many things I struggle with and do not follow perfectly. Why, I would guess none on this list is a true Christian, according to your definition. Even President Hinckley has mentioned having to work harder to follow the counsels given, so I guess even though he may be close, he misses the mark. John, I think you need a better definition which isn't so exclusive, or at least explains itself better. Just where does one draw the line on those who follow/don't follow the prophets? Is telling a white lie a disqualifying event? We've had apostles lie under oath during the time of polygamy. Would they be no longer considered a true Christian? If so, then how can we follow someone who isn't a true Christian? Give us some better parameters, because the one you are giving even disqualifies the current prophets! K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe JWR: A Christian, by my definition, is one who follows Christ. And since it is impossible to follow Christ without following those whom Christ has sent to lead, namely President Hinckley, all nonmembers and many members do not qualify as true Christians. --JWR Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Tom Murphy's Statement (was Re: LDS Writer Expects to Be Excommunica
Tom >Fundamentally the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is a >kingdom. Tom, you slipped. Please remember to make the "D" small. Otherwise--great post! And Gary, if you don't fix the big "D" on your website I'm going to scream and then tell your bishop! :-o Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Re: [ZION] From Ýstanbul with love
Merhaba! I think his real name was Mustafa Kemal, but don't quote me on that... Geoff >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 12/03/02 11:53PM >>> Atatürk, which was his popular name (offhand I believe his real name was something Mustafa -- I'd have to go check). But he'd taken military training in England at Sandhurst and came back to Turkey, in the 1920s, determined to modernize and secularize Turkey. Islamist (or any other religious) party is forbidden under the Turkish constitution. He forbade men to wear the fez (a sign of Islam there, as in Moroco) and he changed the language from which relied on the Arabic alphabet to one that used the Roman alphabet, with a whole chunk of diacritical marks. His adopted name means "Father of the Turk[ish Nation]" The Turkish military steps in if the constitution is violated. Jon Spencer wrote: > Is that the Turkish version of attaboy? > > Jon > > Geoff FOWLER wrote: > Although, thanks to Ataturk, it should be easier for the Church in > Turkey than in most other Islamic nations. > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland "Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on" * Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author's employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
[ZION] Re: [ZION] From Ýstanbul with love
I guess it depends on whether or not you agree with his policies... :) Geoff >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 12/03/02 01:27PM >>> Is that the Turkish version of attaboy? Jon Geoff FOWLER wrote: Although, thanks to Ataturk, it should be easier for the Church in Turkey than in most other Islamic nations. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Tom Murphy's Statement (was Re: LDS Writer Expects to BeExcommunica
I hesitate to weigh in on this. But perhaps if I confine my remarks to generic comments it will be okay. In fact, I know nothing about Brother Murphy and have never read his article. I had heard something of this gene study a while back when some bishop from Australia lost his feeble testimony over it and made a big fuss about it. At that time I was satisfied that the scientific story was incomplete and merely an excuse for the man to act on his lack of spiritual preparation. The statement produced here by Brother Murphy, if it is authentic, does indicate a point of view that needs to be addressed. It is that point of view that I am addressing, not Brother Murphy's attitudes, circumstances or future. Those things are largely irrelevant to me or any other member of the church not involved directly in Brother Murphy's council. The point of view that I'm concerned with is that of members of the church who feel they have a special duty or knowledge or even right that requires or allows them to correct the doctrines established by the duly appointed leaders of the church. Fundamentally the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is a kingdom. It is ruled by its King, Jesus Christ. The rest of us are subjects, and to the extent that we are loyal subjects (submissive disciples) we inherit certain valuable blessings. The rules, principles, ordinances, practices and doctrines under which the kingdom is established and operates are distilled upon the kingdom by its King. This is not a democracy. Space for contradictory or new notions or dogmas is not carved out in the church by dint of membership action. This organization is ruled from the top down. Efforts to influence the doctrine from the bottom up (intellectual arguments, scientific pronouncements, social protests, petitions, arguments, debates, demonstrations, quasi scholarly studies, philosophical musings, lobbying, harassing, contradicting, campaigning, volunteering, advocating, blackmailing, or whatever) will always be ineffective and inappropriate. One does have a remarkable appeal that is unavailable in any similarly designed kingdom. You can appeal directly to the Father of the King. He is open to your every personal petition and does hear and answer your prayers. He offers comfort, wisdom, pure knowledge and love to any who approach him with faith, diligence, patience, brother kindness, charity, humility and the same love. To any that harden their hearts to the doctrines of the kingdom He warns in Alma 12: 11 "And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell." It is painfully evident that we must soften our hearts as we serve in the kingdom of God. A change of heart is inevitable in this life. It will either soften or harden. Our whole energy should be focused on doing those things and pursuing those ends which will soften (or break) our hearts. Time spent trying to rearrange the doctrines of the kingdom to our own liking, or according even to our own understanding. Carving out space for different or even dissident notions seems singularly contrary to the needs of the true disciple to order his own life after the pattern set by the King. Setting oneself up as the arbiter of better doctrine than that revealed to the King's prophets seems to be a practice to be avoided because it indicates, at the very least, that the self appointed arbiter is hardening his heart. Nothing is more dangerous to our eternal salvation than that. Following along in the 12th chapter of Alma "13 Then if our hearts have been hardened, yea, if we have hardened our hearts against the word, insomuch that it has not been found in us, then will our state be awful, for then we shall be condemned. 14 For our words will condemn us, yea, all our works will condemn us; we shall not be found spotless; and our thoughts will also condemn us; and in this awful state we shall not dare to look up to our God; and we would fain be glad if we could command the rocks and the mountains to fall upon us to hide us from his presence." I would ask, do the statements and actions of those persons who profess the strong desire to correct and reorder the kingdom follow a pattern of meekness, humility, patience, and submission?* Generally, of course, they show us something altogether contrary to those virtues. They are couched in phrases that embrace absolutes, rock hard certainty, and impatience. They are shrill and demanding. They scoff at the authority and responsibility of those who seek to follow the established officers leading the Lord's kingdom on earth. They know a better way. They think they know the only way. Their hearts are congealed. They have chosen their own fate. Disciplinary councils may confirm it, but the choice is made by the person himself
Re: [ZION] Tom Murphy's Statement (was Re: LDS Writer Expects to Be Excommunicat
Although I'm not Tom's judge, I do feel that his statements show what's really going on here. I know I'm preaching to the choir on this list, but I hope you all will humor me... I did not desire nor invite the church disciplinary council. This is absolutely not true. Tom is inviting the council by his actions. He is directly and publicly opposing the work of God. This invites a council. ... I do not desire excommunication This is questionable. A person who does not desire excommunication does not behave in the way that Tom has behaved. I do not understand the need for some "intellectuals" to grub in the mud for publicity. Tom is trying his case before the high council in the media, and pronouncing himself guilty before anything has actually occurred. Perhaps he knows something... and believe that it would be in the best interest of the church to halt the council. Who is Tom to determine what the best interests of the church are? Why do these Sigs always attempt to tell us what is best for us? Why do they insist that they are always right? Is it because they are somehow smarter than we are? Perhaps they are just more arrogant. I believe that the LDS Church could provide a great service for critically thinking members of the Church This is a sweeping generalization. Many critically thinking members of the Church are patient, humble, and willing to wait for the Lord. if it would permit open discussion of the Book of Mormon as fiction, perhaps even inspired fiction. This would totally undermine the role of Joseph Smith as a prophet of God. Doing so would destroy the Church. The scientific and historical evidence is so overwhelmingly arrayed against traditional hemispheric and limited geographic interpretations that an open and honest discussion of an allegorical reading of the Book of Mormon is warranted. This is only in his own mind. I wonder what he means by "historical evidence?" Who is interpreting that evidence? In his case, it is most likely those who derisively call a sacred text the "BoMor". As for the scientific evidence, he has shown a remarkable lack of understanding of the subject. Data doesn't mean science. Seizing upon one theory and riding it to the bitter end is one of the best ways to be consigned to the ash heap of history. My desire is to help create such a space for Mormons. Another great intellectual descends from his tower on high, here to help me. Oh, please. If this were politics, we would call him a flaming liberal. Ultimately, it is up to my stake high council to decide if that view is out-of-bounds. No, it is up to the Lord. I am not going to change my view or sweeten it to please the stake president or anyone else. This apparently includes anyone who might have data or theories to the contrary. The matter of fact is that of the thousands of Native American individuals and hundreds of tribal groups studied to date, These are limited studies that cannot possibly take into account all of the things that have happened to the ancestors of these people. The Nephites were totally wiped out, and the Lamanites suffered terrible losses. This would alter the gene pool, considerably. Although it is a reasonable conjecture, the Book of Mormon does not identify the Native Americans as the descendants of these people. He does not take this into account, either. not a single one of them has any evidence of a genetic tie to ancient Israel There is a major fallacy in this argument which he is missing. His precious "Jewish" gene pool has been heavily polluted by the fact that Jews allow converts, and that they intermarry with them. It would seem to me that you could not state with 100% certainty that any piece of a genome is "Jewish", or for that matter, even "middle-eastern." All you could say is that statistically some traits would be more common in some groups of peoples, given certain assumptions, than others. within the time frame required by the Book of Mormon. Perhaps someone with better knowledge of genetics could help me here. Is it possible to date pieces of a genome? Can you say, for example, that a particular mutation happened on or reasonably near a specific date, solely from examining DNA? Not even Scott Woodward of BYU anticipates that future data will change that scenario. Woodward doesn't know either. He isn't touting that fact in the media, however, or writing books declaring that his lack of knowledge must mean that he knows something. Notice, by the way, the use of BYU in his statement? The fact that Woodward works for BYU is irrelevant, but makes it look as though BYU is tacitly supporting Tom's point. The high council cannot change the science by excommunicating me Perhaps he wouldn't be in so much trouble if he actually applied the principles of science. Observe: 1: Tom has a theory, that his actions are sufficient to cause excommunication. 2: Instead
Re: [ZION] When a Girl Marries
Now this really IS wonderful. Thanks for a great start to my day (well, I taught seminary today, so a great continuation!). And I don't see any flames. Jon Chet wrote" > Occasionally (just occasionally) I get serious on this list. (And get > shot down in flames for revealing my ignorance.) But this -- this is > too wonderful to not share. And maybe it will give someone else the > incentive to press on. And maybe there is someone who doesn't realize > that they're avoiding happiness and power. > > Early in November, my middle daughter called and said she was going to > get her endowments and she & my son-in-law were going to get sealed in > the SLC Temple - over the Thanksgiving "weekend." They had not yet > started their temple prep class, but had just come from meeting with > their bishop. > > Naturally, as always happens, Everything Went Wrong as soon as they > decided to go the temple. The car got sick, they weren't able to come > up with the money to move to Alaska (where he had a swell job offer), > etc, etc, etc. Anything which could discourage them happened. Doesn't > it always? It happened to us and to everyone we know (who's sealed) -- > Does Satan get panicky and make lots of last ditch efforts or what? > > But they persevered. They didn't give up. And -- > > I really don't have to tell you how amazing the endowment or the sealing > were, do I? Besides the things I won't discuss on the > internet(especially during her endowment Wednesday -- or was it > Thursday. Boy, am I tired!), the same Holy Spirit which attended every > sealing causes the experience to be incredibly personal. I have long > been of the opinion that if 50 people attend a temple ordinance, there > will be 50 distinctly different (though similar) experiences. One thing > I will share, which struck me with significant symbolism: during one > time when I held Cherie's hand, Crystal was resting her arm on > mineand, nope, we hadn't started out being next to each other. > > It's unbelievable how much Cherie and I cried, not just for happiness > for Crystal, but at some dear friends who travelled to be a part of this > and being together again, for those couples have been dear friends for > many, many years, and know far too many deep secrets about us, and have > triumphed through some really dangerous events. And we have watched > each other grow a decade older, though it seems we've known each other > for far longer. > > The photographer was fantastic, and I can't wait to get the photos (late > December) on CD to put up on a website! We literally spent hours (our > poor feet!) with photos all around the temple, across into Main Street > Plaza (no anti-Mormons were throwing tantrums that day), and we were all > exhausted -- physically, mentally, and spiritually. Reluctant to say > good-bye, we spent a leisurely lunch at Spaghetti Factory. We had saved > enough from our budget to give the kids a few hundred bucks to help them > in their move to Alaska (They are driving to Seattle today -- got sealed > JUST in time, eh?). And then we had to say good-bye. And it wasn't > easy. > > The drive back to Denver didn't tire us any further than we were -- we > got here about 11:30 pm. The next morning, I suggested we sleep through > Sunday School and RS/priesthood but Cherie insisted "We OWE Heavenly > Father" and we pulled ourselves out of bed. Co-incidentally enough, our > gospel doctrine class was All About Temples Past, Present, & Future; > combined priesthood was about ordinances; and almost every testimony > (all but two) was about endowments or sealings. And testimonies - even > before Cherie & I got up - were all about temple ordinances and > closeness. So we cried. Oh, how we cried. Then we were sustained as > Temple Prep teachers, and set apart. More crying. Cherie came home to > sleep while I attended high priests' group leader meeting (I's > secretary) where some more experiences brought more tears (they just HAD > to discuss the testimonies heard today!). Then I came home and dozed -- > and we missed the Christmas broadcast!!! Sheesh!! > > I can't tell you how many horrible mistakes I made as Crystal's father. > I can't tell you how many times we felt like giving up a few years ago. > I can tell you that the discouragement, the fear, the trying and trying > and trying again, and all the pain -- was worth it and more. I can tell > anyone who feels like giving up that there is great victory and power if > one keeps trying and having faith in promises from Father. > > And I can tell you that there's nothing more wonderful than seeing > promises fulfilled. > > > *jeep! > --Chet > > PS: All the "Everything Going Wrong" problems solved themselves within > hours after the sealing. Satan runs like the very devil from freshly > endowed and sealed couples, doesn't he? > > "Start by doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you > are doing the impossible." > > /
[ZION] Tom Murphy's Statement (was Re: LDS Writer Expects to Be Excommunicated
[Tom Murphy's sister is on another list I'm a member of, and she forwarded this statement he wrote in response to all the questions he has been getting, which are too numerous for him to reply to individually. I'm forwarding his statement with permission to some of the other lists where his current situation is being discussed, for the information of the members of those lists. I do not know Tom Murphy and AFAIK have never corresponded with him, and I have no further information to add to his statement below.] I did not desire nor invite the church disciplinary council. As far as I can determine the actions came in direct response to someone handing a copy of my article in American Apocrypha to my stake president. I do not desire excommunication and believe that it would be in the best interest of the church to halt the council. I believe that the LDS Church could provide a great service for critically thinking members of the Church if it would permit open discussion of the Book of Mormon as fiction, perhaps even inspired fiction. The scientific and historical evidence is so overwhelmingly arrayed against traditional hemispheric and limited geographic interpretations that an open and honest discussion of an allegorical reading of the Book of Mormon is warranted. My desire is to help create such a space for Mormons. Ultimately, it is up to my stake high council to decide if that view is out-of-bounds. I am not going to change my view or sweeten it to please the stake president or anyone else. The matter of fact is that of the thousands of Native American individuals and hundreds of tribal groups studied to date, not a single one of them has any evidence of a genetic tie to ancient Israel within the time frame required by the Book of Mormon. Not even Scott Woodward of BYU anticipates that future data will change that scenario. The high council cannot change the science by excommunicating me and I refuse to misrepresent the evidence to please them. Cordially, Tom Murphy // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] LDS Writer Expects to Be Excommunicated
You are quite right, but I still refuse to give them one cent. I try very hard not to play footsie with Satan. Jon Marc A. Schindler wrote: I can't argue with your overall approach, but I would point out that not all of their books are polemical. You have to look at each title on its own merits. But I don't think there's any doubt where the sympathies of the publisher's owners, George Smith, lie. In this JWR's "paranoia" is probably fully justified. Jon Spencer wrote: > As I said a few years ago on this list, this is why we have not and will not > ever carry any book from Signature Books in our LDS bookstore. My wife is > kinder and gentler than I. When people ask why we don't have certain books, > she just says that we don't buy from that publisher, and that is all she > says. She used to give them the contact info if they wanted to buy > something from SB, but no longer. She says that SB always has a booth at > the LDS Booksellers convention each year, but that she (my wife) has never > stopped there, and that the booth seldom has any bookseller stop in. > > Regardless of any great book that they may have, I personally refuse to give > them any money to help in their arrogant pseudo-intellectual pursuits. > Although it is incumbent upon me to forgive them, I do my best to forget > them. > > Jon > > Harold Stuart wrote: > > Do I feel strongly about the Signaturi? Yes. They nearly got me about > > 20 years ago, and it was only by a miracle that I survived. This is > > not hyperbole. I don't relate the experience often, but suffice it to > > say that I learned enough about the devil and his minions to last me > > the rest of my life. Please, beware these people. They, like the > > master they serve, want all men to be miserable like unto themselves. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
