Re: [ZION] Conversion
I do not know that he needs a new family, John. He just needs some of them to repent. His dad is my favority uncle and one that shows me great love and concern and I kinow he loves Jim, cause he tells me so. There are some stange ones in our family - as there are in any family. To those who claim differently I say well good for you, but why could not God trust you with the tough ones. We have a few tough ones in the Cobabe clan, but more than enough good to handle the challenges. Don't you agree, Jim George - Original Message - From: "John W. Redelfs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 4:51 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Conversion > Jim Cobabe wrote: > >I am continually wounded by discussions that use family metaphors > >regarding church fellowship. Over the past decade my family ties have > >been tested, both bonds with literal blood-relations and fellow saints. > >Many of the alliances I thought I could depend on came apart in times of > >trial, and some even turned around to become my personal stumbling-blocks. > > You just need a new family, Jim. And don't forget, you still have family > that have not abandoned you. Seems like I had dinner with them just a few > months back. Your point about having the right relationship with God is > true, however. Ultimately, we all need a certain degree of > self-sufficiency and our own relationship with the Holy Ghost. > > > John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] > === > "The study of the doctrines of the Gospel will improve > behavior quicker than a study of behavior will improve > behavior." --Boyd K. Packer > === > All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Tell Heidi
Okay, I'm back, mostly in lurking mode. But nice to be back. Noel is correct that the spiritual conversion is key. However, most converts I've worked with (Stake Msn Pres/Ward Msn Leader for 10 years) have a testimony of the gospel, but as with the Peter prior to the day of Pentacost, they aren't yet converted. It is extremely easy for new converts to sway in their testimonies. That is exactly when they need strong LDS friends to encourage them and remind them of their testimonies. Those little testimony plants are good, but the roots aren't deep yet. And the more LDS friends a person has, the better they are absorbed. I know a wonderful black family in Alabama. A few years ago, they heard the discussions but chose not to join, because they didn't want to lose their old traditions/friends/habits. A year or so later, they took the discussions again. This time, the branch president assigned the members to take a turn having this investigator family into their homes each Sunday for dinner after Church. They were baptized within 2 months, and he has gone on to be a Ward mission leader, Elder's Quorum President, and held several other key callings. His wife is no slouch either, having stepped up to several responsibilities, too. But this only occurred AFTER the friendships brought them into LDS culture, where the little testimony they had could nurture in the warmth of the gospel's light. Gary Smith K'aya K'ama Gerald Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/ Freedom Forever John, I don't want to discount the need to provide a loving relationship for new converts. My concern is that too many converts fail to take hold regardless of the amount of friendship that is extended to them. It is almost like they didn't have their roots deep enough when the sun began to beat down upon them and they withered away. I think it takes both a community and a testimony to keep a convert. A testimony that is strong will be able to withstand the blows that are certain to come to a new convert. Noel // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Tell Heidi
Gerald Smith wrote: A few years ago, they heard the discussions but chose not to join, because they didn't want to lose their old traditions/friends/habits. A year or so later, they took the discussions again. This time, the branch president assigned the members to take a turn having this investigator family into their homes each Sunday for dinner after Church. We take turns having the missionaries over for dinner. Why can't we take turns hosting the new members in our homes? The members ought to do it spontaneously, but if they don't, perhaps the leaders should organize something like we do with the missionaries. I really believe that having new members over to the house is the key to keeping them active. And we shouldn't feel a need to provide a lavish sit-down dinner when we have new members over. Just a bowl of buttered popcorn or a dish of ice cream would do. I mean, what do we do with our friends? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === "The study of the doctrines of the Gospel will improve behavior quicker than a study of behavior will improve behavior." --Boyd K. Packer === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] THE AMERICAN RELIGION by Harold Bloom
I have been reading THE AMERICAN RELIGION by Harold Bloom and I ran across an interesting statement on page 123: "And who can believe that the Mormons ever would have turned away from the practice of Celestial Marriage, if it were not for federal pressure? No one, least of all in Salt Lake City, will be much inclined to accept a religious critic's foretellings, but I cheerfully do prophesy that some day, not too far on in the twenty-first century, the Mormons will have enough political and financial power to sanction polygamy again. Without it, in some form or other, the complete vision of Joseph Smith never can be fulfilled." Harold Bloom writes this as an outsider. He is an unbelieving Jew, an "American gnostic." I find his statement interesting because I myself have come to the same conclusion for a number of reasons. What do you think? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === "There is no place in this work for those who believe only in the gospel of doom and gloom. The gospel is good news. It is a message of triumph." --Gordon B. Hinckley === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Breaking the charter?
When I first heard of this incident, my gut reaction was anger and disgust at the streetpreachers. However, as I thought of it, I told Bob that what should be done at the next Conference (figuring that they will be there again, being offensive again) is everyone going to Conference should buy a single flower - one per person - and tape a message to the stem, saying, "The Lord loves you.". Then, walk by these people on purpose and lay the flower at their feet and smile sweetly at them. Can you imagine these people with mound of tens of thousands of flowers around them?! Let them be the irrational ones. Let us rise above it and be the examples of Christ. That would be something to take a picture of, wouldn't it? I don't know if the media would pick it up, but one can only hope. Even if they didn't, it would be very satisfying to know that we didn't descend to their level. And, as has been noted, the Lord will deal with them in His own time. We just need to be patient enough to let Him do that. As offensive as it is to see someone desecrating temple garments, the garments themselves aren't what is sacred - they are a symbol of our devotion to God. But they only have any real significance when actually worn by someone that is true to the covenants made with God. Rusty >Well, here I might agree with you. If your going to do it, a full swing >with a large print quad in a tote would do a lot of damage, and might be >worth it. It might make them think twice before doing their disgusting >thing. > >On the other hand, I think that what should happen at the next conference is >for everyone who passes - I mean EVERYONE - to stop, smile, say hello, shake >their hand, pat their back, etc. NOTHING in this world would irritate them >more than this. Can you say apoplectic stroke??? I knew you could! > >Jon > ** "There are no coincidences, only small miracles." Author Unknown ** // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] I wanna break the charter too
This idea is SO wonderful that I think we'll try to save up to go to SLC for the next conference (or maybe for October's). This would be a great photo opportunity for any paper, and I would hope someone would print a photo of one of these hate mongers when they're crushing and kicking the flowers. *jeep! --Chet And, yep, I'm reproducing Rusty's entire message as an encouragement for other Zionists to be there too. On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 10:26:04 -0800 Rusty Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > When I first heard of this incident, my gut reaction was anger and > disgust > at the streetpreachers. However, as I thought of it, I told Bob > that what > should be done at the next Conference (figuring that they will be > there > again, being offensive again) is everyone going to Conference should > buy a > single flower - one per person - and tape a message to the stem, > saying, > "The Lord loves you.". Then, walk by these people on purpose and > lay the > flower at their feet and smile sweetly at them. Can you imagine > these > people with mound of tens of thousands of flowers around them?! Let > them > be the irrational ones. Let us rise above it and be the examples > of > Christ. That would be something to take a picture of, wouldn't it? > > I don't know if the media would pick it up, but one can only hope. > Even if > they didn't, it would be very satisfying to know that we didn't > descend to > their level. And, as has been noted, the Lord will deal with them > in His > own time. We just need to be patient enough to let Him do that. > As > offensive as it is to see someone desecrating temple garments, the > garments > themselves aren't what is sacred - they are a symbol of our devotion > to > God. But they only have any real significance when actually worn > by > someone that is true to the covenants made with God. > > Rusty The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] THE AMERICAN RELIGION by Harold Bloom
My feelings about the Principle and its semi-repeal (it's only sort of repealed) is that if it DOES return before The Millenial, it will be because the Lord says to renew it. If it doesn't return, it will because the Lord says not to. It will have nothing to do with the church's political power or lack thereof. If the Lord had wanted the Principle continued in the 19th century, all the soldiers and all the governments of the world couldn't have stopped it. I haven't given it a great deal of thought beyond that. Perhaps the 19th century saints learned what they needed to learn - they definitely learned to depend on each other, and not on the outside world (something which I think we do far too much of today). There's surely more to be revealed. Orson Scott Card wrote that many men willingly went to jail to support the Principle then, and that many more would go to jail today to support the Principle not being brought back. As a sick old man who can barely keep up with one wife, count me among the latter. Only a much more righteous generation than our generation could possibly keep this principle without becoming corrupted -- as it seems several of the 19th century saints were so corrupted. *jeep! --Chet "Start by doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you are doing the impossible." On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 09:00:51 -0900 "John W. Redelfs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > I have been reading THE AMERICAN RELIGION by Harold Bloom and I ran > across > an interesting statement on page 123: > > "And who can believe that the Mormons ever would have turned away > from the > practice of Celestial Marriage, if it were not for federal pressure? > No > one, least of all in Salt Lake City, will be much inclined to accept > a > religious critic's foretellings, but I cheerfully do prophesy that > some > day, not too far on in the twenty-first century, the Mormons will > have > enough political and financial power to sanction polygamy again. > Without > it, in some form or other, the complete vision of Joseph Smith never > can be > fulfilled." > > Harold Bloom writes this as an outsider. He is an unbelieving Jew, > an > "American gnostic." I find his statement interesting because I > myself have > come to the same conclusion for a number of reasons. What do you > think? > > > John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] > === > "There is no place in this work for those who believe only > in the gospel of doom and gloom. The gospel is good > news. It is a message of triumph." --Gordon B. Hinckley The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Breaking the charter?
Piles of flowers. I say amen to this proposal and suggest that we think of a way to get the word out to enough people to make it so. "Hi, Lonnie. Still acting as silly as ever, well good luck to you the Lord loves you in spite of your foolishness. Here's a flower to make you feel better. See you next year." Say that enough times and the effect might just be magical. George - Original Message - From: "Rusty Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 11:26 AM Subject: Re: [ZION] Breaking the charter? > When I first heard of this incident, my gut reaction was anger and disgust > at the streetpreachers. However, as I thought of it, I told Bob that what > should be done at the next Conference (figuring that they will be there > again, being offensive again) is everyone going to Conference should buy a > single flower - one per person - and tape a message to the stem, saying, > "The Lord loves you.". Then, walk by these people on purpose and lay the > flower at their feet and smile sweetly at them. Can you imagine these > people with mound of tens of thousands of flowers around them?! Let them > be the irrational ones. Let us rise above it and be the examples of > Christ. That would be something to take a picture of, wouldn't it? > > I don't know if the media would pick it up, but one can only hope. Even if > they didn't, it would be very satisfying to know that we didn't descend to > their level. And, as has been noted, the Lord will deal with them in His > own time. We just need to be patient enough to let Him do that. As > offensive as it is to see someone desecrating temple garments, the garments > themselves aren't what is sacred - they are a symbol of our devotion to > God. But they only have any real significance when actually worn by > someone that is true to the covenants made with God. > > Rusty > > >Well, here I might agree with you. If your going to do it, a full swing > >with a large print quad in a tote would do a lot of damage, and might be > >worth it. It might make them think twice before doing their disgusting > >thing. > > > >On the other hand, I think that what should happen at the next conference is > >for everyone who passes - I mean EVERYONE - to stop, smile, say hello, shake > >their hand, pat their back, etc. NOTHING in this world would irritate them > >more than this. Can you say apoplectic stroke??? I knew you could! > > > >Jon > > > > ** >"There are no coincidences, only small miracles." Author Unknown > > ** > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > > > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Punch Their Lights Out
Rusty Taylor wrote: Then, walk by these people on purpose and lay the flower at their feet and smile sweetly at them. Can you imagine these people with mound of tens of thousands of flowers around them?! Let them be the irrational ones. Let us rise above it and be the examples of Christ. That would be something to take a picture of, wouldn't it? I'd much rather punch their lights out, and then be the one who goes to jail for losing his temper. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Tell Heidi
I have just LOVED the discussion on this subject! This is great! Thanks, one and all, for your input. It really helped me out. Now, somewhat further on this - and not to toot my own horn, but here goes...the branch we have moved into has had 51 baptisms thus far during 2003, and a good many of them have been retained. What a wonderful time to be here. I do know for a fact that things are underway to turn this branch into a ward. Back in August, an absolutely GOLDEN family were baptized...father, mother and one of the children who was old enough. This past Sunday, I watched all three of that family's children do an outstanding job participating in the Children's Sac Mtg program. I am the wife's visiting teacher and I am really enjoying getting to know her and her family. Not only do I want to be her visiting teacher but her friend as well. I make a point to sit next to her in Relief Society. This Saturday, our branch has a baptismal trip to the Louisville Temple. She asked me about it because she thought that they had to wait a year to go to the temple at all. I was pleased to be able to explain to her that she and her husband (who is currently serving as an adviser in the YM) can both go and participate, and then I offered to keep their kids for the day so they can go. I'm so excited about it! My kids are excited, too. I wish I could go along with them, but the time for that will come late next summer. :-) When my husband returns from Los Angeles (he's been out there a few weeks thanks to the grocery strike...he comes home Sunday night), we plan to have them over for supper. We'll probably do it on a Sunday and have them come over in the afternoon so we can have plenty of time to get to know them better. It's an absolutely wonderful thing to be in on something like this. Not only am I helping in the Lord's work, but I'm gaining friends and that's always a good thing in my book. I think that this family has the desire to know more about the gospel and they are doing their part to learn. But it does help to have friends in the branch/ward, to help them with the practical application of gospel principles in their lives. Just my thoughts... Heidi the fair > [Original Message] > From: John W. Redelfs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: 10/27/2003 11:36:26 AM > Subject: Re: [ZION] Tell Heidi > > Gerald Smith wrote: > >A few years ago, they heard the discussions but chose not to join, because > >they didn't want to lose their old traditions/friends/habits. A year or so > >later, they took the discussions again. This time, the branch president > >assigned the members to take a turn having this investigator family into > >their homes each Sunday for dinner after Church. > > We take turns having the missionaries over for dinner. Why can't we take > turns hosting the new members in our homes? The members ought to do it > spontaneously, but if they don't, perhaps the leaders should organize > something like we do with the missionaries. I really believe that having > new members over to the house is the key to keeping them active. > > And we shouldn't feel a need to provide a lavish sit-down dinner when we > have new members over. Just a bowl of buttered popcorn or a dish of ice > cream would do. I mean, what do we do with our friends? > > > John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] > === > "The study of the doctrines of the Gospel will improve > behavior quicker than a study of behavior will improve > behavior." --Boyd K. Packer > === > All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
