[ZION] Roll Call
Some former list members are returning. Hallelujah! I'm interested in finding out who is still here. Let's have a roll call. Are you there Paul Osborne? How about you Elmer Fairbanks? Johnna, WRU? Mark Gregson, are you still getting the list mail? Gary Smith, you are back with us, right? I wish Marc Schindler would return, but I guess that is asking for too much. Can anyone think of a way to get Tom Valletta back on here? I think that Elmer said he was off his mission. Grampa Lewis, are you still with us? How about you Cousin Bill? I know you are there Heidi. Are you there Tammy Reber? John English, you are still with us, aren't you? Let's get this list going again. It has been dying on the vine since Tom Matkin, Gary Smith, and Marc Schindler left. But it is worth saving, don't you think? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === There is no place in this work for those who believe only in the gospel of doom and gloom. The gospel is good news. It is a message of triumph. --Gordon B. Hinckley === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Starts With G
Think of how many things that start with G need to be taught (learned?). There is so much to learn about God, just as much to know about good or goodness. What about gratitude, grace, guilt, gentleness, or glory. And there are things like gambling and gossip. I have something to say about them. What is wrong with gambling? I know it's trying to get something for nothing, at least that's what we are told. But what's so wrong with that? Besides it isn't strictly true. The gambler does offer something, actually usually a lot more than he gets. And he certainly accepts risk. I guess one drawback to gambling is that it seems to be addictive and win or lose it leads to other undesirable things. The winner is proud, for absolutely no good reason. The worst sort of pride. The loser is distraught, for very good reason. The worst sort of grief. And the loser sometimes tries to cover his or her losses by stealing or other sad things. You read about that in the paper everyday. Bookkeeper at Laundry Indicted for Fraud - Stole over $100,000 to try to make up for Vegas binges. But really the worst thing about gambling is that it steals your hope from where it belongs. People who buy lottery tickets or bet the horses or the football pools do it because they are hoping it will make them happy. They place their hope on that winning number to make this life less miserable. This robs them of the initiative to do the real things that bring happiness, like living the gospel with exactness and drawing nearer to God. Our hope should be in Jesus Christ, and Him crucified, not in Friday's 6-49 draw. Where your (hope for) treasure is, there will your heart be also. You can't serve God and the Lottery You get the idea. That's why I think gambling is a pernicious evil, it presents a destructive counterfeit method of finding relief from the troubles of this world. What else is wrong with gambling? I'll write about gossip another time. Maybe later today. And gladness, grudges, guile, gospel, gifts, genealogy, guidance and gross. Nice to be back. Natasha kicked me off Zion on her own back near the end of that brouhaha with George and I could never find the list again. My version of Topica didn't even show Zion as a place. When Natasha banishes you she does it right. I did find George again but lost Jim. Jim stayed right here, right? Think about gird, gathering, and gulf. Ah yes, G is where it's at. There's so much to talk about, and we haven't even considered the words that begin with eh. Tom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Starts With G
Don't forget George while you are at it, Tom. I hope that it will be in the good column, George - Original Message - From: Tom Matkin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 2:50 PM Subject: [ZION] Starts With G Think of how many things that start with G need to be taught (learned?). There is so much to learn about God, just as much to know about good or goodness. What about gratitude, grace, guilt, gentleness, or glory. And there are things like gambling and gossip. I have something to say about them. What is wrong with gambling? I know it's trying to get something for nothing, at least that's what we are told. But what's so wrong with that? Besides it isn't strictly true. The gambler does offer something, actually usually a lot more than he gets. And he certainly accepts risk. I guess one drawback to gambling is that it seems to be addictive and win or lose it leads to other undesirable things. The winner is proud, for absolutely no good reason. The worst sort of pride. The loser is distraught, for very good reason. The worst sort of grief. And the loser sometimes tries to cover his or her losses by stealing or other sad things. You read about that in the paper everyday. Bookkeeper at Laundry Indicted for Fraud - Stole over $100,000 to try to make up for Vegas binges. But really the worst thing about gambling is that it steals your hope from where it belongs. People who buy lottery tickets or bet the horses or the football pools do it because they are hoping it will make them happy. They place their hope on that winning number to make this life less miserable. This robs them of the initiative to do the real things that bring happiness, like living the gospel with exactness and drawing nearer to God. Our hope should be in Jesus Christ, and Him crucified, not in Friday's 6-49 draw. Where your (hope for) treasure is, there will your heart be also. You can't serve God and the Lottery You get the idea. That's why I think gambling is a pernicious evil, it presents a destructive counterfeit method of finding relief from the troubles of this world. What else is wrong with gambling? I'll write about gossip another time. Maybe later today. And gladness, grudges, guile, gospel, gifts, genealogy, guidance and gross. Nice to be back. Natasha kicked me off Zion on her own back near the end of that brouhaha with George and I could never find the list again. My version of Topica didn't even show Zion as a place. When Natasha banishes you she does it right. I did find George again but lost Jim. Jim stayed right here, right? Think about gird, gathering, and gulf. Ah yes, G is where it's at. There's so much to talk about, and we haven't even considered the words that begin with eh. Tom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Starts With G
Tom Matkin wrote: Think about gird, gathering, and gulf. Ah yes, G is where it's at. There's so much to talk about, and we haven't even considered the words that begin with eh. Er... which Sesame Street character are you? grin --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Roll Call
From: John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] Some former list members are returning. Hallelujah! I'm interested in finding out who is still here. Let's have a roll call. How about you Cousin Bill? - I'm here. I just don't have much to say at the moment. Cousin Bill [EMAIL PROTECTED] Our country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right. When wrong, to be put right. -- Carl Schurz // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Roll Call
I'm here (lurking as usual). Louise Hustead -Original Message- From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 11:59 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ZION] Roll Call Some former list members are returning. Hallelujah! I'm interested in finding out who is still here. Let's have a roll call. Are you there Paul Osborne? How about you Elmer Fairbanks? Johnna, WRU? Mark Gregson, are you still getting the list mail? Gary Smith, you are back with us, right? I wish Marc Schindler would return, but I guess that is asking for too much. Can anyone think of a way to get Tom Valletta back on here? I think that Elmer said he was off his mission. Grampa Lewis, are you still with us? How about you Cousin Bill? I know you are there Heidi. Are you there Tammy Reber? John English, you are still with us, aren't you? Let's get this list going again. It has been dying on the vine since Tom Matkin, Gary Smith, and Marc Schindler left. But it is worth saving, don't you think? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === There is no place in this work for those who believe only in the gospel of doom and gloom. The gospel is good news. It is a message of triumph. --Gordon B. Hinckley === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Roll Call
Of course I'm here, John. I've been really busy working on my Book of Abraham apologetics. Also, mankind (starting with Adam) has only been on the earth for 6,000 years and I beat Gary Smith really good in that last debate. When it comes to the teachings of the prophets it just goes to show that all of us are willing to take what we want and ignore what we don't want. ;-)) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Roll Call
I'm still here as well. I mostly lurk nowadays, but I'll pop up occasionally, especially if a Signaturus shows up... Harold On Oct 30, 2003, at 5:27 PM, Paul Osborne wrote: Of course I'm here, John. I've been really busy working on my Book of Abraham apologetics. Also, mankind (starting with Adam) has only been on the earth for 6,000 years and I beat Gary Smith really good in that last debate. When it comes to the teachings of the prophets it just goes to show that all of us are willing to take what we want and ignore what we don't want. ;-)) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Starts With G
On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 15:21:49 -0700 George Cobabe [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Don't forget George while you are at it, Tom. I hope that it will be in the good column, George And, don't forget I'm the one that told you about the Zion list. :-)) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Roll Call
Dear folks, I'm still here. Pax et Bonum, John A. English, n/OEF -Original Message- From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 1:59 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ZION] Roll Call Some former list members are returning. Hallelujah! I'm interested in finding out who is still here. Let's have a roll call. Are you there Paul Osborne? How about you Elmer Fairbanks? Johnna, WRU? Mark Gregson, are you still getting the list mail? Gary Smith, you are back with us, right? I wish Marc Schindler would return, but I guess that is asking for too much. Can anyone think of a way to get Tom Valletta back on here? I think that Elmer said he was off his mission. Grampa Lewis, are you still with us? How about you Cousin Bill? I know you are there Heidi. Are you there Tammy Reber? John English, you are still with us, aren't you? Let's get this list going again. It has been dying on the vine since Tom Matkin, Gary Smith, and Marc Schindler left. But it is worth saving, don't you think? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === There is no place in this work for those who believe only in the gospel of doom and gloom. The gospel is good news. It is a message of triumph. --Gordon B. Hinckley === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Roll Call
John W. Redelfs wrote: Some former list members are returning. Hallelujah! I'm interested in finding out who is still here. Let's have a roll call. Are you there Paul Osborne? How about you Elmer Fairbanks? Johnna, WRU? Mark Gregson, are you still getting the list mail? Gary Smith, you are back with us, right? I wish Marc Schindler would return, but I guess that is asking for too much. Can anyone think of a way to get Tom Valletta back on here? I think that Elmer said he was off his mission. Grampa Lewis, are you still with us? How about you Cousin Bill? I know you are there Heidi. Are you there Tammy Reber? John English, you are still with us, aren't you? Let's get this list going again. It has been dying on the vine since Tom Matkin, Gary Smith, and Marc Schindler left. But it is worth saving, don't you think? = Grampa Bill never left. Zion is worth saving. I miss it terribly when it's quiet. Love y'all Grampa Bill in Savannah // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Mainstreaming Mormonism
Harold Bloom, the noted literary critic, wrote in his book THE AMERICAN RELIGION: It is weirdly true, in 1991, that the Mormons are as mainstream as you are, whoever you are, at least in terms of the religion of politics and the politics of religion. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] A Dangerous Book
Harold Bloom, a highly renowned literary critic, makes two outrageous claims in his book THE AMERICAN RELIGION: 1) The LDS people will resume the practice of plural marriage, probably by 2020, and 2) The Mormons will set up the political Kingdom of God before the Second Coming, right here in the United States, and probably by 2020. Is this guy totally wacked? Or does he see something that we Mormons can't see? On page 91 he writes: --- quote --- Daniel 2:44 [Nebuchadnezzar's Dream], quote earlier, inspired Joseph Smith to a grand declaration on May 12, 1844: 'I calculate to be one of the instruments of setting up the kingdom of Daniel by the word of the Lord, and I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.' That foundation was the Council of Fifty, set up early in 1844, a year in which Smith rather quixotically declared himself a candidate for the Presidency of the Unites States, and also the year of his martyrdom. There are several reasons why 1844 so far has been the crucial year in the history of Mormonism, to be superseded only sometime in the twenty-first century, when there could be the establishment of a Mormon Kingdom of God in some substantial part, if not all, of the United States. For everything that Joseph Smith had come to prophesy gathers itself together in his vision of kingship over the Kingdom of God. Nauvoo was not Geneva, and the joyous Prophet Joseph was anything but a repressed or repressive personality. His sense of the Kingdom was not metaphorical, though modern Mormonism, for understandable reasons, has attempted to interpret it only figuratively, at least to Gentiles. --- unquote --- Is that wild or what? A Jewish intellectual, Professor of Literature at Yale, thinks that we Mormons are going to carve our own country out of the United States in realization of Joseph Smith's dream of the literal Kingdom of God on earth. I just hope that nobody was listening to him when he wrote this book. Much of the persecution that was waged against the LDS people in times past was motivated by a fear of Mormon political power. It is only as we have been able to mollify our Gentile neighbors that we are no political threat that we have been able to escape the persecution that was so important a part of our early history as a Church. I think that Bloom's book could be very dangerous to us as a people. What do you think? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === There is no place in this work for those who believe only in the gospel of doom and gloom. The gospel is good news. It is a message of triumph. --Gordon B. Hinckley === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Starts With G
Are you the one, I thought it was Marc Schindler but am likely mistaken. I am not so sure anyone but me would appreciate your referral. George - Original Message - From: Paul Osborne [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 6:29 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Starts With G On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 15:21:49 -0700 George Cobabe [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Don't forget George while you are at it, Tom. I hope that it will be in the good column, George And, don't forget I'm the one that told you about the Zion list. :-)) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Starts With G
Don't forget George while you are at it, Tom. I hope that it will be in the good column, George Of course! G is for George. George the good. Or - Good Old George. Yes Jesus love you. You know that, and not just because the bible tells you so. Have you shared your recent experiences with this list George? I was trying so hard to be good and stay under the 5 post minimum on FAIR that I didn't say there how wonderful it was to hear of your blessings. We know you are anxious to get up there and count the degrees of glory and any sub kingdoms for yourself, but it was great to find out that your inevitable has been put off for a while anyway. Tom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Mainstreaming Mormonism
Harold Bloom, the noted literary critic, wrote in his book THE AMERICAN RELIGION: It is weirdly true, in 1991, that the Mormons are as mainstream as you are, whoever you are, at least in terms of the religion of politics and the politics of religion. Where is the mainstream anymore. I heard today that teenagers, in Canada I think, smoke more pot than tobacco. So if pot smoking is mainstream we aren't getting very close to it. I hope. In a political sense I haven't read Bloom's book so I don't know what he's talking about, but one interesting problem shaping up is that the Church is becoming very global and that is shaping everything that is done in the Church and politicians in the U.S. tend to see their bread being buttered by appeals to local attitudes and concerns. I predict that Africa will be the next big population base for the Church after Central and South American and that the North American Church will continue to shrink in proportion dramatically. So to answer your question in the Dangerous Book thread, no the Church will not dabble in U.S. politics, anymore than it has recently. Which is to say hardly at all. The book is not particularly dangerous. What will cause us trouble is if the nation falls on hard times one way or another and we get singled out as the cause of it. The jewish whipping boy syndrome, changed to where everybody's difficulties are seen to be caused by Mormons and politicians can win votes by fanning those flames. Nobody reads books by literary critics. Tom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
