RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
Gary: Look, I don't think we're ever going to agree. I'm probably as aware as you are as to what God taught and what he didn't. I think are differences are in approach. I'm inclined to teach the gospel, you seem inclined to preach repentance. I'm inclined to believe that God must be a pretty forgiving God if he's willing to forgive the sins of repentant sinners like you and me. I believe that God wants to include as many people as He possibly can...and that it's my job to do my bit to ensure the roster is as large as possible. You take a different tack. Good luck to you. Our purposes are the same, more or less even if our methods are different. Ron >-Original Message- >From: Gerald Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2004 1:42 PM >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: [ZION] Vote Now! > > >How about his prophecy that Jerusalem would be >destroyed by God for its >sins? Since Christ is God, he was doing more than just >foreseeing an >event - he was being Judge, Jury and Executioner. He >will do it again at >the Second Coming. >We must remember that the Mosaic Law was a lower law - >but still a law of >God. Regardless of the punishment, the sin of >homosexuality was still a >sin that was punishable under the law. In earlier days >in the USA, it >was also considered a crime punishable under the law. >And Just because it is no longer punished, does not >make it heinous or >sinful. > >And what Christ taught was not forgiveness, but >repentance. Forgiveness >is what was given AFTER people repented. Christ did not teach >forgiveness to the Pharisees, but called them to >repentance. He did not >preach forgiveness to the Jews or Samaritans, but >repentance. He >forgave, because it was within him to forgive those He >chose to forgive. >Had his mission been nothing but forgiveness, he would >forgive all >mankind, including Cain. > >Instead, he came to bring balance between Justice and >Mercy, but only on >condition of repentance, which is what he preached. > >I think too many get fixated on what seems to be God's >leniency. In >reality, the commandments are clear, as are the rewards >and punishments. >We are not to judge where a person goes to in the next >life, but we are >to judge right from wrong. The JST of Matthew 7:1 tells >us to judge >righteous judgment. I don't condemn people to hell, >that is God's job. I >DO condemn sin, telling the sinner that if change does >not occur in >his/her life, the person risks hellfire. Calling >people to repentance is >a good thing to do, because only in repentance can God >bring forgiveness. > >K'aya K'ama, > >Gerald (Gary) Smith >[EMAIL PROTECTED] >http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html >LDS Evidences, >Family History, Food Storage, etc. > > >RB Scott wrote: > >> Seriously, I don't >>recall Christ preaching "death" for any offense...well, murder >>perhaps (but I don't recall it). > >Notwithstanding fairly twisted and bizarre interpretations, what >Christ taught was forgiveness, not death. > >I think too many get fixated and judging others, relishing >damning others to hell. What Christ taught was that it is our >responsibility to forgive all, to leave judgements to Him. I >suspect when that great and dreadful day arrives, more >than a few >of us will be very, very surpised. > >> > > >// >/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// >/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > >/ --- > > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
[ZION] Vote Now
My comments intermingled below: Jack wrote: This is interesting info, Gary, but I doubt that it applies to this discussion. Although business traditions are mercurial, cultural traditions tend to strengthen exponentially from generation to generation. The hand that rocks the cradle, etc. I find it highly doubtful that these traditions can be changed in a few years. Gary: Any group, whether a nation, community, business, or family has culture. And the way cultures interact, adapt, fight, etc, are all the same, regardless of the unit/organization. The only difference is the time span required for change to occur. BTW, I have a BS in Management and a MA in Teaching/History; so I am able to compare events from both business (organizational behavior) with nations (national behavior). Jack: Why didn't the Iraqis rise and destroy Saddam of their own accord? Because as a people, they were willing to resign themselves to his rule. They have been resigning themselves to autocrats for a long, long time. Gary: Actually, there are two reasons. First, people have tried rising up against Saddam in the past. He has had many assassination attempts against him over the years. He's just been extremely successful in squashing the opposition. One of his sons-in-law fled the country a decade ago, gave us info on him. After several years, he was told he was forgiven and to return; which he did, only to be beheaded. When the Shiites in southern Iraq tried rebellion after the first Gulf War, they were slaughtered by the hundreds of thousands. The Kurds also tried breaking free, only to be gassed by the tens of thousands. Only after Saddam himself changed the culture - his brutality forced a cultural change over a period of just a few years - did the people resign themselves to his rule. But, once again, it is a cultural change. The people learn in the culture to not speak out, or they will be tortured and killed. You'll note that with a change of government, the people now feel free to speak out and protest, because the new culture is setting in, which tells them they aren't going to be tortured and killed for protesting the USA. Cultures change. >... Japan and South Korea are >awesome democracies (non-English speaking) that have learned the > values of freedom over a period of less than 50 years. Jack: We forced a democratic constitution upon Japan, literally at gunpoint, which they are already contemplating abandoning. Even now, the Japanese are happy to live with a degree of regimentation and control far beyond what we would find acceptable. Politics in Japan are not a populist exercise. Although they do vote, the Japanese people allow most of their politics to be decided behind closed doors. And I should add I'm basing this from mainstream sources, like Newsweek and U.S News & World Report - not fringe publications like the New American. Gary: I never said their culture is exactly like ours. The democratic culture is still evolving. But it is evolving. The people vote. A major difference in cultures is that they tend to trust their government officials, while we in the USA are suspicious of government power. There are some cultural things that just won't change. While many of them remember the Emperor with fondness, we remember King George putting the Stamp Act on us. Our views of governance, therefore are going to be somewhat different. Still, you don't see anyone in Japan pushing to go back to the old days of an Emperor running everything. Democracy is well entrenched in their culture, even if it isn't exactly like ours. >It might take Iraq 40-50 years to switch over to a strong democracy. So >what? It means our grandchildren's children will live in a world with >one more free nation that isn't run by radical kooks. Jack: Are you willing to occupy Iraq for 40-50 years, no matter the cost in lives and dollars? Because that's the only way I can see of achieving our goals. Even then, it would be impossible unless the Iraqis chose to change. Gary: What was the cost of rebuilding Europe and Japan after WWII? Back then, our people were glad to bear the burden and cost of nation building: Germany, Italy, Japan, etc. Where would the world be if we hadn't? Germany was left in shambles after WWI, and its desperate culture of poverty caused it to accept Hitler. England's culture caused it to accept "Peace in our Time" via Neville Chamberlain. We learned that ignoring a blister does not necessarily make the blister go away. Instead, it often will fester into a gangrenous wound requiring amputation. Over time, culture changes as people surrender themselves to the new situation. This is what happened in Germany, both after WWI, and after WWII. This is what happened to Japan after WWII. Jack: Besides, are there _any_ Islamic nations that are not run by radical kooks? Was Saddam alone in persecuting the Kurds? Didn't the president of Maylasia recently release a diatribe against the vast
[ZION] Vote Now!
How about his prophecy that Jerusalem would be destroyed by God for its sins? Since Christ is God, he was doing more than just foreseeing an event - he was being Judge, Jury and Executioner. He will do it again at the Second Coming. We must remember that the Mosaic Law was a lower law - but still a law of God. Regardless of the punishment, the sin of homosexuality was still a sin that was punishable under the law. In earlier days in the USA, it was also considered a crime punishable under the law. And Just because it is no longer punished, does not make it heinous or sinful. And what Christ taught was not forgiveness, but repentance. Forgiveness is what was given AFTER people repented. Christ did not teach forgiveness to the Pharisees, but called them to repentance. He did not preach forgiveness to the Jews or Samaritans, but repentance. He forgave, because it was within him to forgive those He chose to forgive. Had his mission been nothing but forgiveness, he would forgive all mankind, including Cain. Instead, he came to bring balance between Justice and Mercy, but only on condition of repentance, which is what he preached. I think too many get fixated on what seems to be God's leniency. In reality, the commandments are clear, as are the rewards and punishments. We are not to judge where a person goes to in the next life, but we are to judge right from wrong. The JST of Matthew 7:1 tells us to judge righteous judgment. I don't condemn people to hell, that is God's job. I DO condemn sin, telling the sinner that if change does not occur in his/her life, the person risks hellfire. Calling people to repentance is a good thing to do, because only in repentance can God bring forgiveness. K'aya K'ama, Gerald (Gary) Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html LDS Evidences, Family History, Food Storage, etc. RB Scott wrote: > Seriously, I don't >recall Christ preaching "death" for any offense...well, murder >perhaps (but I don't recall it). Notwithstanding fairly twisted and bizarre interpretations, what Christ taught was forgiveness, not death. I think too many get fixated and judging others, relishing damning others to hell. What Christ taught was that it is our responsibility to forgive all, to leave judgements to Him. I suspect when that great and dreadful day arrives, more than a few of us will be very, very surpised. > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
>-Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2004 8:42 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! At 09:00 PM 3/20/2004, you wrote: >-Original Message- >From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2004 8:22 PM >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! > > >RB Scott wrote: >>I think you've got it right. The old laws are off the >books. If >>they become laws again, they ought to be enforced. What do I >>think the penalty ought to be for Sabbath breaking? Dunno. Let >>me consult with my Jewish and SDA friends. Seriously, I don't >>recall Christ preaching "death" for any offense...well, murder >>perhaps (but I don't recall it). > >According to official Mormon doctrine, Jesus Christ is >the premortal >Jehovah. If that is the case, then we know that Jesus >Christ preached >death for quite a few offenses. --JWR I think too many get fixated and judging others, relishing damning others to hell. What Christ taught was that it is our responsibility to forgive all, to leave judgements to Him. I suspect when that great and dreadful day arrives, more than a few of us will be very, very surpised. RBS So then, let's just open up all the prisons and jails, let everyone go--obviously its not our place to judge rapists, serial killers and the like. Wouldn't that make our society grand?< Exactly what I was suggesting. I'd better bite my tonuge. Someone will accuse me of attacking. RBS Actually, it has been suggested before...in a John Denver song. "Thirsty Boots." -- Jonathan Scott // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
>-Original Message- >From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2004 8:42 AM >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! > > >At 09:00 PM 3/20/2004, you wrote: > > >> >-Original Message- >> >From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2004 8:22 PM >> >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! >> > >> > >> >RB Scott wrote: >> >>I think you've got it right. The old laws are off the >> >books. If >> >>they become laws again, they ought to be enforced. What do I >> >>think the penalty ought to be for Sabbath breaking? > Dunno. Let >> >>me consult with my Jewish and SDA friends. >Seriously, I don't >> >>recall Christ preaching "death" for any >offense...well, murder >> >>perhaps (but I don't recall it). >> > >> >According to official Mormon doctrine, Jesus Christ is >> >the premortal >> >Jehovah. If that is the case, then we know that Jesus >> >Christ preached >> >death for quite a few offenses. --JWR >> >>I think too many get fixated and judging others, relishing >>damning others to hell. What Christ taught was that it is our >>responsibility to forgive all, to leave judgements to Him. I >>suspect when that great and dreadful day arrives, more >than a few >>of us will be very, very surpised. >> >>RBS > >So then, let's just open up all the prisons and jails, >let everyone >go--obviously its not our place to judge rapists, >serial killers and the >like. Wouldn't that make our society grand?< Exactly what I was suggesting. I'd better bite my tonuge. Someone will accuse me of attacking. RBS // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
Re: [ZION] Vote Now!
John W. Redelfs wrote: Hi Gary. My name's Jack, I'm the only son of the listowner. === Grampa Bill comments: Love your style... love your writing... love your dad! Visit us more often. Love Y'all, Grampa Bill in Savannah With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
At 09:00 PM 3/20/2004, you wrote: >-Original Message- >From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2004 8:22 PM >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! > > >RB Scott wrote: >>I think you've got it right. The old laws are off the >books. If >>they become laws again, they ought to be enforced. What do I >>think the penalty ought to be for Sabbath breaking? Dunno. Let >>me consult with my Jewish and SDA friends. Seriously, I don't >>recall Christ preaching "death" for any offense...well, murder >>perhaps (but I don't recall it). > >According to official Mormon doctrine, Jesus Christ is >the premortal >Jehovah. If that is the case, then we know that Jesus >Christ preached >death for quite a few offenses. --JWR I think too many get fixated and judging others, relishing damning others to hell. What Christ taught was that it is our responsibility to forgive all, to leave judgements to Him. I suspect when that great and dreadful day arrives, more than a few of us will be very, very surpised. RBS So then, let's just open up all the prisons and jails, let everyone go--obviously its not our place to judge rapists, serial killers and the like. Wouldn't that make our society grand? -- Steven Montgomery "In democracy there are commonly tumults and disorders Therefore a pure democracy is generally a very bad government. It is often the most tyrannical government on earth."--Noah Webster // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
At 08:58 PM 3/20/2004, you wrote: >-Original Message- >From: Grampa Bill in Savannah [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2004 8:36 PM >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: Re: [ZION] Vote Now! > > >RB Scott wrote: > >> Seriously, I don't >>recall Christ preaching "death" for any offense...well, murder >>perhaps (but I don't recall it). Notwithstanding fairly twisted and bizarre interpretations, what Christ taught was forgiveness, not death. Actually he taught both. Unrepentant sinners could still expect the full penalty of the law upon them. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
