Re: [ZION] Does America need to be destroyed
I ran across that passage in Alma recently and marveled. I thought to myself, Why should this be, as the Taliban aren't known to have marked themselves, right? At any rate, I was somewhat awed and wondered about the saying. I think I am storing up things to ponder in my heart. Stacy. At 12:06 PM 11/21/2002 -0700, you wrote: Gary favored us all with: There clearly is a symbolic level to the marks. But often there are both physical and spiritual parts of a symbol. Babylon, for example, is an actual city in antiquity. It also symbolically represents the telestial world, built on greed and power. Although not all the wicked may have the physical mark on their hands/foreheads, it is possible that many will; while all will have the spiritual mark of Babylon/Satan on them. I believe we will see a physical mark put into place in Europe before long, as part of the EU. One thing my dad taught to me (and is confirmed in the Book of Mormon - see Alma 3:13-19) was that people who are disobeying the commandments of God typically mark themselves. It could be in the way that they dress, piercings, tatoos, or any number of ways. He explained that while he was on his mission in Germany during the late 60's (early 70's), he and his companion found and began teaching a man and woman the Gospel. They were both decked out in the style of the time, with the woman wearing clothing that were not modest, and they were both unkept and dirty. While the man was not interested in the message, the woman was, and as she progressed through the discussions the woman's appearance began to change. She did away with the fashion of the day, cleaned herself up, and dressed modestly. She felt the Spirit and was converted. The missionaries never mentioned to her that she needed to change her dressing habits, but she was taught what she needed by the Spirit. She was eventually baptized. Perhaps this is why the Brethren insist that we dress modestly, avoid the fads of the day, and be clean in appearance. Perhaps it is so we can let [our] light so shine before men, that they may see [our] good works, and glorify [our] Father which is in heaven. (Matt. 5:16) Perhaps this is one of the ways that we mark ourselves unto righteousness and show the world that we are the servants of Christ. What do you think? Your brother, Geoff -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Does America need to be destroyed
The Taliban/Al Qaeda mark themselves in a different manner, because their customs are different. They show their beliefs through covering their women and keeping them locked up. That is a mark one can see, just by observing their lifestyles. They also wear the clothing (turban, etc) of the larger Islamic custom. As you'll note from the Amlicites, they sought to look like the peoples they were joining. The Taliban and Al Qaeda look much alike in their societies, as do most other radical Islam. Then again, look at how people in our society dress, depending on their belief systems. Religious people tend to dress conservatively, while many in our society dress up in the latest haute couture or hip-hop styles. Many today are marking themselves with tattoos and piercing. Each of these becomes a mark as real as anything the Lamanites had. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Stacy: I ran across that passage in Alma recently and marveled. I thought to myself, Why should this be, as the Taliban aren't known to have marked themselves, right? At any rate, I was somewhat awed and wondered about the saying. I think I am storing up things to ponder in my heart. Stacy. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Does America need to be destroyed
Gary favored us all with: There clearly is a symbolic level to the marks. But often there are both physical and spiritual parts of a symbol. Babylon, for example, is an actual city in antiquity. It also symbolically represents the telestial world, built on greed and power. Although not all the wicked may have the physical mark on their hands/foreheads, it is possible that many will; while all will have the spiritual mark of Babylon/Satan on them. I believe we will see a physical mark put into place in Europe before long, as part of the EU. One thing my dad taught to me (and is confirmed in the Book of Mormon - see Alma 3:13-19) was that people who are disobeying the commandments of God typically mark themselves. It could be in the way that they dress, piercings, tatoos, or any number of ways. He explained that while he was on his mission in Germany during the late 60's (early 70's), he and his companion found and began teaching a man and woman the Gospel. They were both decked out in the style of the time, with the woman wearing clothing that were not modest, and they were both unkept and dirty. While the man was not interested in the message, the woman was, and as she progressed through the discussions the woman's appearance began to change. She did away with the fashion of the day, cleaned herself up, and dressed modestly. She felt the Spirit and was converted. The missionaries never mentioned to her that she needed to change her dressing habits, but she was taught what she needed by the Spirit. She was eventually baptized. Perhaps this is why the Brethren insist that we dress modestly, avoid the fads of the day, and be clean in appearance. Perhaps it is so we can let [our] light so shine before men, that they may see [our] good works, and glorify [our] Father which is in heaven. (Matt. 5:16) Perhaps this is one of the ways that we mark ourselves unto righteousness and show the world that we are the servants of Christ. What do you think? Your brother, Geoff -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Does America need to be destroyed
Gary, Well I guess time will tell which one of us is more correct. I would respond in more detail but I just got back from surgery (Ouch! Where are my pain pills?) so I hope you'll forgive me for not responding in more detail. -- Steven Montgomery At 09:38 AM 11/21/2002, you wrote: Steven: I used to believe that the mark of the beast certainly referred to an intrusive, all powerful government, which held its subjects in economic bondage, by forcing them to submit to some kind of microchip implant or in some other manner with the number of the beast. As I've studied Revelation further however I've changed my views. Here is why: Gary: I agree with much of your premises, but believe there will be a major government involved. I don't think it will control all the world, but mainly the Old World. In the New World will be another major government emerge, called Zion. Steven: One of the overarching themes of the Book of Revelations deals with the victory that Jesus Christ and the righteous have over Satan, Babylon and mankind's twin nemesis, both Spiritual and Physical Death. The righteous, we are informed by Revelations 15:2 are those who gain victory over the Beast and thus qualify to live on this earth in its Celestial Glory. Gary: I believe you mean a Terrestrial Glory, as the earth will not become celestialized until at the end of the Millennium. It is highly possible that the righteous with the mark of Christ are not just celestial beings, but also the terrestrial. Steven: It's interesting to note that those who accept Christ and overcome Satan are sealed up unto eternal life by having Christ's name written on their foreheads (see Rev. 7:3 and 22:4). Under the law of Moses the Israelites were commanded to wear phylacteries on their hands or frontlets upon their foreheads which were little boxes that contained certain scriptures written inside them as a sign unto thee upon thine hand, and for a memorial between thine eyes, that the Lord's law may be in thy mouth or in other words that the righteous were to treasure up the words of Christ in their heart and soul and to physically bind these items on their hands or foreheads as a sign of this fact (see Exodus 13:9,16; Deut. 6:8; 11:18). Gary: There clearly is a symbolic level to the marks. But often there are both physical and spiritual parts of a symbol. Babylon, for example, is an actual city in antiquity. It also symbolically represents the telestial world, built on greed and power. Although not all the wicked may have the physical mark on their hands/foreheads, it is possible that many will; while all will have the spiritual mark of Babylon/Satan on them. I believe we will see a physical mark put into place in Europe before long, as part of the EU. Steven: Satan, as the great counterfeiter, also seals his followers with a mark in their hand or forehead. But what is this mark and what does it represent? Is it an actual physical mark or merely symbolic? What characterizes those who have the mark? Gary: As I said, it is both physical and symbolic in nature. Steven: As a result of the fall of Adam and without the atonement of Jesus Christ, man is carnal sensual and devilish. Thus Satan causes ALL, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond to receive his mark in their right hand or in their forehead. Since this is a mark which affects all mankind it clearly cannot be an actual physical one. It is symbolic. Thus It represents man in his mortal state and without the atonement of Jesus Christ, who truly cannot buy or sell without the mark of Satan (see Rev. 13:16-18; 14:1, 9-11; 17:5). Gary: I fail to see your hard evidence that it is solely symbolic. Combining scriptural quotes from the BoM with Revelation does not mean you have proved your point. Members of the Church are marked both physically and symbolically with garments. Would you suggest that the garments aren't real? People are marked all the time by machines, and are tracked every time they use a credit card (held in the hand). I personally believe the physical mark is a special economic bank code that will be used to prevent fraud. The EU is growing quickly, with reluctant nations being forced into the economy if they wish to trade freely with the other nations of Europe. As John the Revelator sees all mankind getting the mark, he may be exaggerating the extent of the physical mark, in order to show the widespread symbolic mark being used. Steven: It is also significant to note in Rev. 14:9-11, that those who thus follow Satan and receive his mark on their forehead or hand, suffer the wrath of God, are tormented with fire and brimstone, and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever--quite a punishment just for accepting a mark for food, as the christian fundamentalists believe, especially if one did so without knowledge or innocently! Reading these scriptures in context just doesn't bear this viewpoint up. It should be obvious that the punishment mentioned
[ZION] Does America need to be destroyed
Revelation mentions a world government, or rather a group of nations that act as one. It is affectionately referred to as the Beast. Those who will not worship the Beast and have its number engraved on their hand/head, will not be able to buy/sell (economic pressure). this would fit in well with the ten toes that Daniel sees as the last world kingdom to appear prior to the coming of Christ. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe But when I look at the book of Daniel, it seems to me I remember that a world empire wasn't to be established again until Jesus comes. Stacy. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Does America need to be destroyed in its current form?
I believe the US government will fall eventually from bloat and corruption. It may be that an outside attack will help it fall, but only if the inside is rotten. I don't have a problem with a state having an active government. Those who don't like it can always move. But a federal government should only step in when absolutely necessary (like during war or a depression), and then step back afterward. I think there are many good people still in government. However, the rotten ones and radical ones have taken over the lecterns and pulpits, so there is no true discourse today. I believe this to be true on both sides of the aisle. I'm a strong believer in what George Washington warned us about in his farewell speech: to beware political parties, and to only vote for individuals, not political platforms. Because we now vote for parties, people vote without thinking. They allow the party to move the populace, rather than the people moving the agenda. One can be led like a dumb ox, or one can lead the dumb ox. But the 10% rule comes in here. One must be 10% smarter than the ox, in order to move it. Political parties dumb down. They move from issues and ideas to just defending the turf against the other guy. We've seen this from both major parties here in the US. It is hoped that people are righteous enough to be able to maintain our government and freedoms without a major wake up. However, if our government were to topple, I guarantee you that it wouldn't automatically be replaced by another one based on our Constitution. Many groups will jump in, telling how antiquated our Constitution is, and that it should be replaced with a modern government (pick your poison: fascist, communist, socialist, etc) that seems to be democratic, but is in reality a totalitarian regime. We see this today in Iraq, where all the people just happened to vote for Saddam Hussein, who just happened to be running unopposed, and where people can't actually cast a secret ballot, so will have great incentive to vote for him. Democracy/Republican government becomes a formality, part of the ritual. It is like the whited sepulchres that Jesus warned the Pharisees of becoming. They were pretty on the outside, but the inside was full of dried up bones. How easy will it be for the elders of Israel to step in and save the Constitution when it hangs by a thread? Depends on how righteous the Elders of Israel are, and how soon they step in to save the Constitution. It may very well be that the Church members must go through severe trials and purgings prior to being ready to establish a righteous government again. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Stacy: What is your current belief concerning the United States? Does it need to be destroyed in its present form--White House, Congressional buildings, Pentagon, etc., as Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden think or should it remain with its current governmental structural architecture? I know that the Constitutional government should remain, but there could be a radical change in administration if all our forms of government become much smaller due to the House and Senate leadership being destroyed by these characters. Will the future Congress be holding sessions in the parking lot? Stacy. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Does America Need To Be Destroyed As It Is In Its Current Form?
Well, I'm guessing that Canada will eventually evolve into one. ;-) Europe and Asia seem to be going into a globalization realm, so I think their nation states will eventually just be states/provinces in a giant world-nation. This I fear, though. It is too easy for a Hitler to step into power, and with non armies to oppose, would wield power throughout the world. Benevolently when possible, ruthlessly when necessary. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Marc: To complicate the question, one might also ask what is the future of nation-states in general? Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Does America Need To Be Destroyed As It Is In Its Current Form?
What is your current belief concerning the United States? Does it need to be destroyed in its present form--White House, Congressional buildings, Pentagon, etc., as Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden think or should it remain with its current governmental structural architecture? I know that the Constitutional government should remain, but there could be a radical change in administration if all our forms of government become much smaller due to the House and Senate leadership being destroyed by these characters. Will the future Congress be holding sessions in the parking lot? Stacy. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Does America Need To Be Destroyed As It Is In Its CurrentForm?
To complicate the question, one might also ask what is the future of nation-states in general? Stacy Smith wrote: What is your current belief concerning the United States? Does it need to be destroyed in its present form--White House, Congressional buildings, Pentagon, etc., as Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden think or should it remain with its current governmental structural architecture? I know that the Constitutional government should remain, but there could be a radical change in administration if all our forms of government become much smaller due to the House and Senate leadership being destroyed by these characters. Will the future Congress be holding sessions in the parking lot? Stacy. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Does America Need To Be Destroyed As It Is In Its Current Form?
I guess I'm referring to the next couple of years or so. Stacy. At 06:05 PM 11/16/2002 -0700, you wrote: To complicate the question, one might also ask what is the future of nation-states in general? // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
