Re: [ZION] Royal Families

[Jon Spencer]

Well ..

As I have been fully qualified for all ordinanaces and supervisory positions
in the Temple other than the Baptistry, all I can say is that this doctrine
is certainly not taught there.  We don't teach it in Seminary.  It is not
taught in Sunday School.  It hasn't been taught in General Conference.  I
haven't heard it on KBYU.

Of course, Christ came in the line of David, so maybe that line is special
in some other way that I am not aware of.

My (currently) favorite scripte, Alma 26:22 (which will be my missionary
scripture when my wife and I go in about 5 years or so) says that those who
"repenteth and exerciseth faith, and bringeth forth good works, and prayeth
continually without ceasing-unto such it is given to know the mysteries of
God; yea, unto such it shall be given to reveal things which never have been
revealed."  So perhaps this good brother has been assigned to reveal this to
us.

But the stupor of mind that comes to me as I contemplate this says
otherwise.

Jon

- Original Message -
From: "Maj Tom Merrill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 9:59 PM
Subject: [ZION] Royal Families


> Folks
>
> I guess I'll turn off the "lurk mode" and bring up something about which
> I have a passionate opinion.  The subject is "royal families."
>
> There is someone in my stake who comes from what some would call a
> prominent family.  They teach in church, and especially within their
> family, this doctrine.  Seems that, according to them, some families
> within Israel have been singled out for greatness.  That there are
> lineages that have been set aside to rule and reign over the rest of us.
>
> What is the opinion of the group?  I'd find your comments interesting as
> well as educational.
>
> As I said, I have some rather strong feelings on this, but I thought
> that I'd ask this august group.
>
> Thx & Cheers
> Tom
>
>

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Re: [ZION] Royal Families

[Paul Osborne]

On Sat, 21 Jun 2003 08:11:16 -0700 Rick Mathis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
writes:
> Now there are some definite advantages to a solid LDS heritage, and 
> the 
> righteousness of ancestors results in blessings that last through 
> generations, but when you get down to brass tacks, all the righteous 
> 
> ancestors in the world won't save an evil man.
> 
> My two cents.
> 
> Rick Mathis


Now your making cents! So true.

Paul O
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Re: [ZION] Royal Families

[Rick Mathis]

At 09:59 PM 6/19/2003 -0400, Tom wrote:

There is someone in my stake who comes from what some would call a 
prominent family.  They teach in church, and especially within their 
family, this doctrine.  Seems that, according to them, some families 
within Israel have been singled out for greatness.  That there are 
lineages that have been set aside to rule and reign over the rest of us.
Like Faun Brody, Steve Benson, and the Tanners?  I seem to remember reading 
about the prophet Eli's sons, who had much the same idea.  The Lord thought 
otherwise.  I'm a Snow.  Since cousin Eliza was sealed to Joseph Smith, do 
I have a special "in" with the Lord?

There is some scriptural reference to a lineal right to the priesthood, and 
some of the early Brethren taught that they were direct descendents of the 
first apostles, but "There is a law, irrevocably decreed before the 
foundations of the world. . . and when we obtain any blessing from God, it 
is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated".

Now there are some definite advantages to a solid LDS heritage, and the 
righteousness of ancestors results in blessings that last through 
generations, but when you get down to brass tacks, all the righteous 
ancestors in the world won't save an evil man.

My two cents.

Rick Mathis

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Re: [ZION] Royal Families

[Maj Tom Merrill]

Ronn! Blankenship wrote:

At 05:38 AM 6/20/03 -0700, Grampa Bill in Savannah wrote:

Maj Tom Merrill wrote:

Grampa Bill comments:

Reading the first several answers to the Good Major's query, there 
seems to be near unanimity that the doctrine being taught is false. 
I'm not quite sure. True enough, the question is posed in such a 
manner as to elicit near visceral outrage, but lets look at some 
other aspects. 

There are many who would dispute "Good Major". I just go by Tom 



First, let's get rid of that "rule and reign over the rest of us" 
line. Christ taught that to rule is to serve and set the example in 
washing His Apostles' feet. Seems this ruling and reigning business 
ain't all it's cracked up to be. 

I'd have to agree. Leadership = Servitude. It is an eternal principle.

Next, it is obvious there are certain families both within and 
outside the Chirch that rise to and remain in positions of 
prominence. The Smith family comes to mind immediately. Prophets, 
Patriarchs, Apostles, Seventies and numerous General Officers of the 
Church have arisen from this family over a number generations. It is 
not limited to the Smiths. Check the Pratts and the Youngs, the 
Tanners, et al. In fact, this phenomenon is so prevalent that if the 
doctine of Royal Blood is not true, the Church would seem to be a hot 
bed of nepotism. 

I would have to say that since the Church membership was rather 
concentrated in its early history, there was bound to be a 
concentration. I think that if we followed namy of the early, 
non-promenent families, you'd find a hefty amount of today's leaders. Of 
course, a major portion of Israel's current leadership is probably 1st 
generation.

One of the great blessings one seeks is to raise up a righteous 
posterity. If blessings follow righteousness, one would expect to see 
prominence in certain families. 

As the generations progress, I would expect all of our families to have 
their own leaders arise.

I have read that Colonel George Reade, a prominent pre-Revolutionary 
War patriot, fathered a number of U.S. Presidents and a brace of 
General Authorities and Officers of the Church. He is also one of my 
ancestors and whatever prominence his descendants enjoy certainly 
skipped my branch and generation. 

Skipped my generation, too . But I suspect that my son and 
daughters will be counted among the great ones wherever they go. As my 
son says, "It doesn't matter how tall your grandfather was, you have to 
do your own growing."

I think the main thing is that certain folks, by their pre-existant 
and/or mortal righteousness merit having some of the "great and 
noble" spirits to be born into their posterity. 

After the veil is lifted, we'll know for sure how things were set up 
before we came here. But until then, it's just speculation.

I don't know that I have expressed this well, but I 'spect ther is 
something to this doctrine regardless of how distastefully it might 
have been expressed. 

Distasteful is one way of putting .




I'm sure you're correct in what you say above. Let's look at the 
question again.

At 09:59 PM 6/19/03 -0400, Maj Tom Merrill wrote:

Folks

I guess I'll turn off the "lurk mode" and bring up something about 
which I have a passionate opinion. The subject is "royal families."

There is someone in my stake who comes from what some would call a 
prominent family. They teach in church, and especially within their 
family, this doctrine. Seems that, according to them, some families 
within Israel have been singled out for greatness. That there are 
lineages that have been set aside to rule and reign over the rest of us.




And at a few of the words of the Savior on the matter:

"And he came to Capernaum: and being in the house he asked them, What 
was it that ye disputed among yourselves by the way? But they held 
their peace: for by the way they had disputed among themselves, who 
[should be] the greatest. And he sat down, and called the twelve, and 
saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, [the same] shall be 
last of all, and servant of all." (Mark 9:33-35)

"But many [that are] first shall be last; and the last first." (Mark 
10:31)

"And James and John, the sons of Zebedee, come unto him, saying, 
Master, we would that thou shouldest do for us whatsoever we shall 
desire. And he said unto them, What would ye that I should do for you? 
They said unto him, Grant unto us that we may sit, one on thy right 
hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory. But Jesus said 
unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I 
drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? 
And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall 
indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I 
am baptized withal shall ye be baptized: But to sit on my right hand 
and on my left hand is not mine to give; but [it shall be given to 
them] for whom it is prepared. And when the ten heard [it],

Re: [ZION] Royal Families

[Ronn! Blankenship]

At 05:38 AM 6/20/03 -0700, Grampa Bill in Savannah wrote:
Maj Tom Merrill wrote:

...according to them, some families within Israel have been singled out 
for greatness.  That there are lineages that have been set aside to rule 
and reign over the rest of us.

What is the opinion of the group?
=
Grampa Bill comments:
   Reading the first several answers to the Good Major's query, there 
seems to be near unanimity that the doctrine being taught is false. I'm 
not quite sure. True enough, the question is posed in such a manner as to 
elicit near visceral outrage, but lets look at some other aspects.

   First, let's get rid of that "rule and reign over the rest of us" 
line. Christ taught that to rule is to serve and set the example in 
washing His Apostles' feet. Seems this ruling and reigning business ain't 
all it's cracked up to be.

   Next, it is obvious there are certain families both within and outside 
the Chirch that rise to and remain in positions of prominence. The Smith 
family comes to mind immediately. Prophets, Patriarchs, Apostles, 
Seventies and numerous General Officers of the Church have arisen from 
this family over a number generations. It is not limited to the Smiths. 
Check the Pratts and the Youngs, the Tanners, et al. In fact, this 
phenomenon is so prevalent that if the doctine of Royal Blood is not 
true, the Church would seem to be a hot bed of nepotism.

   One of the great blessings one seeks is to raise up a righteous 
posterity. If blessings follow righteousness, one would expect to see 
prominence in certain families.

   I have read that Colonel George Reade, a prominent pre-Revolutionary 
War patriot, fathered a number of U.S. Presidents and a brace of General 
Authorities and Officers of the Church. He is also one of my ancestors 
and whatever prominence his descendants enjoy certainly skipped my branch 
and generation.

   I think the main thing is that certain folks, by their pre-existant 
and/or mortal righteousness merit having some of the "great and noble" 
spirits to be born into their posterity.

   I don't know that I have expressed this well, but I 'spect ther is 
something to this doctrine regardless of how distastefully it might have 
been expressed.


I'm sure you're correct in what you say above.  Let's look at the question 
again.

At 09:59 PM 6/19/03 -0400, Maj Tom Merrill wrote:
Folks

I guess I'll turn off the "lurk mode" and bring up something about which I 
have a passionate opinion.  The subject is "royal families."

There is someone in my stake who comes from what some would call a 
prominent family.  They teach in church, and especially within their 
family, this doctrine.  Seems that, according to them, some families 
within Israel have been singled out for greatness.  That there are 
lineages that have been set aside to rule and reign over the rest of us.


And at a few of the words of the Savior on the matter:

"And he came to Capernaum: and being in the house he asked them, What was 
it that ye disputed among yourselves by the way? But they held their peace: 
for by the way they had disputed among themselves, who [should be] the 
greatest. And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If 
any man desire to be first, [the same] shall be last of all, and servant of 
all."  (Mark 9:33-35)

"But many [that are] first shall be last; and the last first."  (Mark 10:31)

"And James and John, the sons of Zebedee, come unto him, saying, Master, we 
would that thou shouldest do for us whatsoever we shall desire. And he said 
unto them, What would ye that I should do for you? They said unto him, 
Grant unto us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy 
left hand, in thy glory.  But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye 
ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the 
baptism that I am baptized with?  And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus 
said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with 
the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized:  But to sit on 
my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but [it shall be 
given to them] for whom it is prepared. And when the ten heard [it], they 
began to be much displeased with James and John.  But Jesus called them [to 
him], and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule 
over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones 
exercise authority upon them. But so shall it not be among you: but 
whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:  And whosoever 
of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all. For even the Son of 
man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a 
ransom for many."  (Mark 10:35-45)

I think the issue here is not whether or not some people are called to do 
great things in the Church, nor whether God may tell those people in 
advance something about the work they are called to do in 

RE: [ZION] Royal Families

[Jim Cobabe]

This doctrine of the election of grace is as follows: "As part of the 
new song the saints will sing when they 'see eye to eye' and the 
millennial era has been ushered in will be these words, 'The Lord hath 
redeemed his people, Israel, According to the election of grace, Which 
was brought to pass by the faith And covenant of their fathers.' (D. & 
C. 84:98-102; Rom. 11:1-5.) This election of grace is a very 
fundamental, logical, and important part of God's dealings with men 
through the ages. To bring to pass the salvation of the greatest 
possible number of his spirit children the Lord, in general, sends the 
most righteous and worthy saints to earth through the lineage of Abraham 
and Jacob. This course is a manifestation of his grace or in other words 
his love, mercy, and condescension toward his children.

"This election to a chosen lineage is based on pre-existent worthiness 
and is thus made 'according to the foreknowledge of God.' (1 Pet. 1:2.) 
Those so grouped together during their mortal probation have more 
abundant opportunities to make and keep the covenants of salvation, a 
right which they earned by pre-existent devotion to the cause of 
righteousness. As part of this election, Abraham and others of the noble 
and great spirits were chosen before they were born for the particular 
missions assigned them in this life. (Abra. 3:22-24; Rom. 9.)

"As with every basic doctrine of the gospel, the Lord's system of 
election based on pre-existent faithfulness has been changed and 
perverted by an apostate Christendom. So absurd have been the false 
conclusions reached in this field that millions of sincere though 
deceived persons have devoutly believed that in accordance with the 
divine will men were pre-destined to receive salvation or damnation 
which no act on their part could change. (Teachings, p. 189.)

"Actually, if the full blessings of salvation are to follow, the 
doctrine of election must operate twice. First, righteous spirits are 
elected or chosen to come to mortality as heirs of special blessings. 
Then, they must be called and elected again in this life, an occurrence 
which takes place when they join the true Church. (D. & C. 53:1.) 
Finally, in order to reap eternal salvation, they must press forward in 
obedient devotion to the truth until they make their 'calling and 
election sure' (2 Pet. 1), that is, are 'sealed up unto eternal life.' 
(D. & C. 131:5.)" (Mormon Doctrine, 2nd ed., pp. 216-217.)

(_Doctrinal New Testament Commentary_, Bruce R. McConkie.)

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Re: [ZION] Royal Families

[Grampa Bill in Savannah]

Maj Tom Merrill wrote:

...according to them, some families within Israel have been singled 
out for greatness.  That there are lineages that have been set aside 
to rule and reign over the rest of us.

What is the opinion of the group?
=
Grampa Bill comments:
   Reading the first several answers to the Good Major's query, there 
seems to be near unanimity that the doctrine being taught is false. I'm 
not quite sure. True enough, the question is posed in such a manner as 
to elicit near visceral outrage, but lets look at some other aspects.

   First, let's get rid of that "rule and reign over the rest of us" 
line. Christ taught that to rule is to serve and set the example in 
washing His Apostles' feet. Seems this ruling and reigning business 
ain't all it's cracked up to be.

   Next, it is obvious there are certain families both within and 
outside the Chirch that rise to and remain in positions of prominence. 
The Smith family comes to mind immediately. Prophets, Patriarchs, 
Apostles, Seventies and numerous General Officers of the Church have 
arisen from this family over a number generations. It is not limited to 
the Smiths. Check the Pratts and the Youngs, the Tanners, et al. In 
fact, this phenomenon is so prevalent that if the doctine of Royal Blood 
is not true, the Church would seem to be a hot bed of nepotism.

   One of the great blessings one seeks is to raise up a righteous 
posterity. If blessings follow righteousness, one would expect to see 
prominence in certain families.

   I have read that Colonel George Reade, a prominent pre-Revolutionary 
War patriot, fathered a number of U.S. Presidents and a brace of General 
Authorities and Officers of the Church. He is also one of my ancestors 
and whatever prominence his descendants enjoy certainly skipped my 
branch and generation.

   I think the main thing is that certain folks, by their pre-existant 
and/or mortal righteousness merit having some of the "great and noble" 
spirits to be born into their posterity.

   I don't know that I have expressed this well, but I 'spect ther is 
something to this doctrine regardless of how distastefully it might have 
been expressed.

Love y'all
Grampa Bill in Savannah
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Re: [ZION] Royal Families

[Harold Stuart]

Answer in one word:  Bogus

Answer in two words:  False Doctrine

They can't show it from the scriptures, and this sort of teaching will  
prove to be their undoing.

We are all, in a very real sense, royal families.  We are all children  
of a King.

Harold Stuart

On Thursday, June 19, 2003, at 06:59 PM, Maj Tom Merrill wrote:

Folks

I guess I'll turn off the "lurk mode" and bring up something about  
which I have a passionate opinion.  The subject is "royal families."

There is someone in my stake who comes from what some would call a  
prominent family.  They teach in church, and especially within their  
family, this doctrine.  Seems that, according to them, some families  
within Israel have been singled out for greatness.  That there are  
lineages that have been set aside to rule and reign over the rest of  
us.

What is the opinion of the group?  I'd find your comments interesting  
as well as educational.

As I said, I have some rather strong feelings on this, but I thought  
that I'd ask this august group.

Thx & Cheers
Tom
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Re: [ZION] Royal Families

[Ronn! Blankenship]

At 09:59 PM 6/19/03 -0400, Maj¹ Tom Merrill wrote:
Folks

I guess I'll turn off the "lurk mode" and bring up something about which I 
have a passionate opinion.  The subject is "royal families."

There is someone in my stake who comes from what some would call a 
prominent family.  They teach in church, and especially within their 
family, this doctrine.  Seems that, according to them, some families 
within Israel have been singled out for greatness.  That there are 
lineages that have been set aside to rule and reign over the rest of us.

What is the opinion of the group?  I'd find your comments interesting as 
well as educational.

As I said, I have some rather strong feelings on this,


IIRC, so did President Benson.

<>



 but I thought that I'd ask this »»» august ««« group.


You are a month and a half too early for that. ;-)

¹BTW, what branch of the service are you in?

-- Ronn! :)

(former air farce ossifer)

God bless America,
Land that I love!
Stand beside her, and guide her
Thru the night with a light from above.
From the mountains, to the prairies,
To the oceans, white with foam…
God bless America!
My home, sweet home.
-- Irving Berlin (1888-1989)

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Re: [ZION] Royal Families

[Ronn! Blankenship]

At 09:59 PM 6/19/03 -0400, Maj Tom Merrill wrote:
Folks

I guess I'll turn off the "lurk mode" and bring up something about which I 
have a passionate opinion.  The subject is "royal families."

There is someone in my stake who comes from what some would call a 
prominent family.  They teach in church, and especially within their 
family, this doctrine.  Seems that, according to them, some families 
within Israel have been singled out for greatness.  That there are 
lineages that have been set aside to rule and reign over the rest of us.

What is the opinion of the group?  I'd find your comments interesting as 
well as educational.

As I said, I have some rather strong feelings on this,


IIRC, so did President Benson.

<>



 but I thought that I'd ask this »»» august ««« group.


You are a month and a half too early for that. ;-)



-- Ronn! :)

God bless America,
Land that I love!
Stand beside her, and guide her
Thru the night with a light from above.
From the mountains, to the prairies,
To the oceans, white with foam…
God bless America!
My home, sweet home.
-- Irving Berlin (1888-1989)

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Re: [ZION] Royal Families

[Paul Osborne]

On Thu, 19 Jun 2003 21:59:09 -0400 Maj Tom Merrill
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Folks
> 
> I guess I'll turn off the "lurk mode" and bring up something about 
> which 
> I have a passionate opinion.  The subject is "royal families."
> 
> There is someone in my stake who comes from what some would call a 
> prominent family.  They teach in church, and especially within their 
> 
> family, this doctrine.  Seems that, according to them, some families 
> 
> within Israel have been singled out for greatness.  That there are 
> lineages that have been set aside to rule and reign over the rest of 
> us.
> 
> What is the opinion of the group?  I'd find your comments 
> interesting as 
> well as educational.
> 
> As I said, I have some rather strong feelings on this, but I thought 
> 
> that I'd ask this august group.
> 
> Thx & Cheers
> Tom


Hmmm. First of all, ain't no one gonna "rule" over me (Paul Osborne the
Great), except Jesus, and that's if I let him. So please tell your royal
friend that he will have to rule in some other kingdom and not the one
I'm in ;-)

Second, I think royalty is for the birds and bees who make honey for the
kings to lick up. Sounds like a sticky jar to me. :-)  

Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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RE: [ZION] Royal Families

[Noel B]

I would suggest that this represents the pride that the Lord has
continually warned us about. The first and last thought I have on this
is:

The last shall be first and the first shall be last...
Joe

-Original Message-
From: Maj Tom Merrill [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 9:59 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [ZION] Royal Families


Folks

I guess I'll turn off the "lurk mode" and bring up something about which

I have a passionate opinion.  The subject is "royal families."

There is someone in my stake who comes from what some would call a 
prominent family.  They teach in church, and especially within their 
family, this doctrine.  Seems that, according to them, some families 
within Israel have been singled out for greatness.  That there are 
lineages that have been set aside to rule and reign over the rest of us.

What is the opinion of the group?  I'd find your comments interesting as

well as educational.

As I said, I have some rather strong feelings on this, but I thought 
that I'd ask this august group.

Thx & Cheers
Tom


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