Re: [ZION] What is patriotism?
This is a touching and, ironically, a from-the-heart answer. But where are the counter-arguments from the head? Gary Smith wrote: This is the problem with many liberal writers-they make statements from the heart, regardless of whether they back up their statements with facts, or if those facts are correct. First off, the president has shown himself not to be a mental lightweight. Second, where is the evidence that Cheney is an evil power, especially when no actual misdeeds have been shown at Haliburton Oil? Third, Rumsfeld never was a senator, perhaps the author should try looking up in the dictionary the difference between Secretary of Defense and Attorney General So, if anyone is a lightweight here, it is the author of the article. I know we USAmericans do have an enormous patriotism (at times), but we also have a lot of suspicion. Isn't it interesting that discussions on whether we should go to war with Iraq are right or not are going on in this country? A blind patriot wouldn't have such discussions going on. As for evil, I'll bet this guy still supports Clinton as a great president. And how about those Democratic senators involved in Enron and Global Crossing? Are they evil also? If you're going to call one person evil, then you at least need to be consistent. Finally, show you've at least done some homework (who was this guy's copy editor, to let such slop slip through?), and get the facts straight. I'm a historian (among other trades), and I've not only seen Ken Burns' Civil War, but I've read several studies on it. yes, it was a tragedy. But massive deaths on both sides only shows the tragedy of war, not its justification. The North fought for union and to defeat slavery, while the South fought for states' rights and to keep their slaves. All very key issues for anyone calling himself an American. But a Canadian may not fully understand that, as Canada has never had to struggle with slavery, states' rights, or a major fight to maintain its unity. It's kind of like an American today not understanding poverty or slavery, because we just don't have it as drastic as other nations, unless they travel and live in another place for some time and learn to appreciate it. I like what ex-Black Panther Eldridge Cleaver said when he returned from Russia, there is more freedom in an American jail than on the streets of Moscow. Should cost only be counted in body bags? What is the total value of freedom from terror, or to maintain our sovereignty? Ten body bags? Twenty? One hundred? Or should we just curl up in a corner and accept the idea that no amount of body bags are worth the cost of freedom. Americans do not honor war. Americans honor freedom and those who defend that great treasure, which only a minority of homo sapiens enjoy in this world. Flags fly, because unlike the flags of other nations (including Canada's), ours represent our freedom and vision. It is a vision that has endured since Thomas Jefferson inked those sacred words on a piece of parchment: We hold these truths to be self-evident...life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Few nations have made a love of freedom so innate with the human spirit as have Americans. This inspires some, and infuriates many who do not have the same vision. The French, who seek equality and brotherhood, cannot understand what real freedom is. This is why their revolution failed. Most nations do not have a Jefferson or a Thomas Paine. Few have men who are anything but summer soldiers that sneak home when the winter chill is in the air. Few have a group of men willing to sign their death warrants on such a parchment as the Declaration of Independence, or to truly seek that freedom for all men; allowing that freedom to expand to other groups not originally included, such as blacks and women. Today, there are many nations that still have slaves, and that still treat women like dogs. We stand as symbol which those nations hate. Should we be ashamed of the truth and light we've brought to the world? A city on a hill cannot be hid, neither does one light a candle and place it under a bushel. Perhaps what irritates me most is liberal duplicity and using the Iraq war as an extension of their (and in this case, Canadian) vanity. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Marc quoting article: On the other hand, we have the axis of Bush-Chaney-Rumsfeld. What a triumvirate. The President is a mental lightweight. The Vice President is the evil power behind the throne, the man who walked away from his insider misdeeds at Halliburton Oil. (Remember too that two of the three of the sacred triumvirate are oilmen.) Then there is Rummy. He has visions of some kind of military sugarplums dancing in his head. He is and was a devout
Re: [ZION] What is patriotism?
Here's another example of where John and I would agree, although perhaps for different reasons. I don't think it has anything to do with George II's and Cheney's membership in any secret organization, but rather because Cheney is more powerful than the president and better connected (and more of a war hawk). I sincerely believe George II's war-mongering talk will cease the day after the mid-term elections, where Cheney really means it. John W. Redelfs wrote: At 09:18 PM, Saturday, 10/26/02, Gary Smith wrote: This is the problem with many liberal writers-they make statements from the heart, regardless of whether they back up their statements with facts, or if those facts are correct. First off, the president has shown himself not to be a mental lightweight. Second, where is the evidence that Cheney is an evil power, especially when no actual misdeeds have been shown at Haliburton Oil? Cheney is a CFR insider. That is bd. Not only that he ranks George W. He is a whole generation older. If there were a serious disagreement between Bush and Cheney, Bush Sr. would reign in George W. because of Cheney's rank in the secret combination. Of course, I can't prove any of this. But then I know a lot of things that I cannot prove. The gospel is one of them. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === I don't think I'm alone when I say I'd like to see more and more planets fall under the ruthless domination of our solar system. --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] What is patriotism?
At 09:18 PM, Saturday, 10/26/02, Gary Smith wrote: there is more freedom in an American jail than on the streets of Moscow I've been on the web for over an hour trying to confirm this Cleaver quote, and I cannot find it. Do you have a reference? --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] What is patriotism?
At 09:18 PM, Saturday, 10/26/02, Gary Smith wrote: Should cost only be counted in body bags? What is the total value of freedom from terror, or to maintain our sovereignty? Ten body bags? Twenty? One hundred? Or should we just curl up in a corner and accept the idea that no amount of body bags are worth the cost of freedom. Every time we fight a dishonest war in which a lasting victory is not sought and the political ends of our leaders are more important than the pretext given for the war, we do more damage to our freedom and liberty than any number of body bags. If I thought for a moment that war in Iraq was going to help protect our freedoms, I would be a strong supporter. I don't think that is the case, so I'm not. A war with Iraq is not going to 1) make us more free, or 2) make us more safe from terrorism. On the contrary, a war with Iraq is going to make us less free and increase the threat of terrorism in the USA. War with Iraq is not in the best interests of the USA. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === I don't think I'm alone when I say I'd like to see more and more planets fall under the ruthless domination of our solar system. --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
