Re: [Zope] [Zope-dev] Zope 4.0, maybe not such a bad idea...
On Apr 2, 2009, at 4:17 PM, Chris Withers wrote: > Jim Fulton wrote: >>> What Martijn has announced and is already being worked on >>> extensively. >>> >>> - Zope A 4.0 >>> >>> What was to be Zope 2.12 >>> >>> - Zope B 4.0 >>> >>> Whatever the next pending release of the Zope 3 appserver stuff >>> was to >>> be. (Need to keep the Canonical and ZC guys happy afterall ;-) ) >>> >>> www.zope.org could then just be a radically cut down link portal to >>> a.zope.org, b.zope.org and framework.zope.org, which I'd imagine >>> to be >>> brochurewear, download and/or KGS sites for each of the above. >>> >>> I'd suggesting splitting the svn access stuff out to dev.zope.org >>> because it transcends all three. >>> >>> docs.zope.org could hoover up the rest, with any remaining stuff >>> being >>> humanely dispatched. >>> >>> Seriously, how do people feel about this? >> I don't think we need A&B. Maybe just "Zope" and "Zope Framework". > > Unfortunately, as we discovered at the BOF, and what is currently a > significant cause of confusion, is that the "Zope" bit isn't just > one thing, we basically have two app-server projects named Zope > right now: > > - Zope 2 > > Used by Plone, and a few die-hard stragglers and unfortunate > passerby's who get sucked in by the rubbish on www.zope.org > > - Zope 3 > > Use by Canonical for Launchpad and (well, was suspected anyway) by > ZC. I'm sure there are more. We and canonical use the Zope Framework. We don't use an application. Zope (aka Zope 2) is an extensible application. We (ZC and Canonical and others) assemble components from the Zope Framework to build our own applications. Jim -- Jim Fulton Zope Corporation ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] [Zope-dev] Zope 4.0, maybe not such a bad idea...
On Apr 2, 2009, at 3:57 PM, Chris Withers wrote: > Remember this: > > http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2001/04/01/parrot.htm > > Well, that lead to this: > > http://www.parrot.org/ > > One of the reasons I got suckered into replying was that I thought > this > might be the result of some stuff a few of us had talked about at the > Zope BOF at PyCon. > > I actually think having a 4.0 release of Zope that unifies things > could > be used to make things a lot clearer... > > - Zope Framework 4.0 > > What Martijn has announced and is already being worked on extensively. > > - Zope A 4.0 > > What was to be Zope 2.12 > > - Zope B 4.0 > > Whatever the next pending release of the Zope 3 appserver stuff was to > be. (Need to keep the Canonical and ZC guys happy afterall ;-) ) > > www.zope.org could then just be a radically cut down link portal to > a.zope.org, b.zope.org and framework.zope.org, which I'd imagine to be > brochurewear, download and/or KGS sites for each of the above. > > I'd suggesting splitting the svn access stuff out to dev.zope.org > because it transcends all three. > > docs.zope.org could hoover up the rest, with any remaining stuff being > humanely dispatched. > > Seriously, how do people feel about this? I don't think we need A&B. Maybe just "Zope" and "Zope Framework". I like the idea of using a number larger than 3. (I've suggested 5 in the past.) Overall +1. Jim -- Jim Fulton Zope Corporation ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
[Zope] Re: [Zope3-Users] is it possible to copy object b/w two zodb Database
On Jun 11, 2008, at 10:36 AM, rahul bhaskar wrote: Hi, I am facing some problem with merging two zodb file. is it possible to open two zodb Database at a time and copy object from one to another. Yes, using the export/import mechanism. Jim -- Jim Fulton Zope Corporation ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
[Zope] Re: Hooking persistent.Persistent.__setstate__ was Re: [ZODB-Dev] Analyzing a ZODB.
On Apr 5, 2008, at 6:30 PM, Alan Runyan wrote: Here is something more ZODB and less Zope related (kinda). I was talking with Benji a few weeks ago about a problem that should be easy to debug but was not. Here is the scenerio: - Customer has software on a remote machine. They are seeing unnecessary transaction commits. Just like the guy 'Analyzing a ZODB'. - Customer is completely incapable of doing anything other than putting a script on the filesystem. - Benji and I thought about it and he proposed 'the simplest thing that c/should work, monkey patch persistent.__setstate__' so that I could see what objects were being mutated. That doesn't show you which objects are being mutated. It only shows you which objects are being loaded. If you want to see what objects are actually being mutated, it would be better, IMO, to set up some sort of event channel on object invalidations. If you want to see what code is mutating objects, it would be better to set breakpoints in Connection.register. - Unfortunately ZODB 3.x does not have a Python fallback of persistent.Persistent -- its in C. The customer did not have a C compiler on their box. IIRC how I solved it was increase ZEO event log to see the oid's. Then I walked him through loading the oid up to see what object was being mutated. It was more painful than it should have been. Yup, but automating something like this might have been informative without being painful. Question: Is it possible for ZODB 3.9 to have a pure python implementation of persistent.Persistent? Probably. Maybe this would be a good ZODB GSOC project? The current C-level persistence implementation is rather nasty because of the close coupling with the persistent cache implementation. My goal is to come up with a new persistence implementation that is much simpler and more flexible with both Python and C implementations. I haven't had time to work on this though. :( If someone wanted to work on this, I'd be happy to go into more detail. ... - increasing zeo server log level and watching oid's being changed is sort-of the equivalent of turning on RDBMS logging to see SQL stmt's being executed. Unfortunately I believe without having a hook in persistent.Persistent we can never really get that level of granularity (i.e. __getattribute__ is only accessible in client) with only ZEO server logs. Regardless of whether it's implementation is in C or Python, the current implementation is complex and highly coupled. A more flexible system that I envision, would make it easier to experiment with alternate cache implementations and would also make it easier to substitute implementations that did more logging for debugging purposes. This is a transparent plea for a "new feature". But I believe it would significantly help people writing ZODB applications. Maybe people should always have a base class that you override those methods which delegate to persistent.Persistent. i.e. class MyMixin(persistent.Persistent) and mixin MyMixin instead of mixin persistent.Persistent directly? Then you can instrument the MyMixin with the logging? That would introduce lots of overhead and complexity that I don't think is warranted. Jim -- Jim Fulton Zope Corporation ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
[Zope] Re: [ZODB-Dev] Analyzing a ZODB.
On Apr 5, 2008, at 12:09 PM, Manuel Vazquez Acosta wrote: In a development environment, set a breakpoint (e.g. add "import pdb; pdb.set_trace()" in ZODB.Connection.Connection.register. You'll be able to see exactly what is causing object changes. I recommend doing this in the zope debugger, which makes it easy to run one request at a time. Dear Mr. Fulton, Thanks for your quick response By the zope debugger you mean this: http://www.simplistix.co.uk/software/zope/zdb ?? No, I mean the built-in debugger you get when you run: zopectl debug Get someone familiar with Zope to explain it to you. Jim -- Jim Fulton Zope Corporation ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
[Zope] Re: [ZODB-Dev] Analyzing a ZODB.
On Apr 5, 2008, at 11:49 AM, Manuel Vazquez Acosta wrote: Hi all, Recently I was appointed to improve a Plone's performance, and I have the following issue: I see too many transactions made by the anonymous user. I can reproduce this behaviour: just watching the home page produces a transaction at /index by None. I wonder if there's a way to actually see what objects (or object types) are modified by those transactions. So I can go directly to the source of the (surely innecesary) transaction. I tried analyze.py but I don't grasp the output accurately. In a development environment, set a breakpoint (e.g. add "import pdb; pdb.set_trace()" in ZODB.Connection.Connection.register. You'll be able to see exactly what is causing object changes. I recommend doing this in the zope debugger, which makes it easy to run one request at a time. Jim -- Jim Fulton Zope Corporation ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
[Zope] Moving the Zope (2) collector to launchpad.
I'm going to start the process of moving the Zope 2 collector today. It will be impossible to submit issues using the existing collector. We'll announce the availability of the launchpad-based collector soon. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714 http://www.python.org Zope Corporationhttp://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
[Zope] Serious security problem with Zope 2
We have recently discovered that there are (still) very serious security problems with the integration of reStructured Text (docutils) into Zope 2. We have prepared a hot fix for this problem: http://www.zope.org/Products/Zope/Hotfix-2006-07-05/Hotfix-20060705/ See: http://www.zope.org/Products/Zope/Hotfix-2006-07-05/Hotfix-20060705/ README.txt for installation instructions. It is important to install this hotfix as soon as possible. This fix will disable the reStructuredText 'raw' directive. Much thanks goes to Tres Seaver for analyzing the problem and developing the hotfix! Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714 http://www.python.org Zope Corporationhttp://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Zope.org = Zope.com?
Someone fat-fingered the cache configuration. It has been fixed afaik. Jim Chris Withers wrote: Hi Jim, Did anyone ever get to the bottom of this? cheers, Chris Chris Withers wrote: Lennart Regebro wrote: On 4/3/06, Andreas Krasa <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: it seems that currently all HTTP requests to www.zope.org and dev.zope.org are forwarded to www.zope.com. Seems to work now. At least for me. This is still happening intermittently for some people. Jim has raised it with the guys who host zope.org... cheers, Chris -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
[Zope] [Fwd: Zope fails on large task?]
-- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org --- Begin Message --- I have a quite complicated data collection and reporting system based on zope2.7 and postgresql. All the postgresql stuff is handled by external scripts. I have used page templates throughout. It is running on a Debian Sarge based system, and uses Apache as a front end. This is my first experience developing with Zope, so I have probably done things oddly, but... I have script that generates a large bundle of data dictionary for each "target entity", which is in this case is a person. I then pass this data to a script that converts it to XML. My template repeats over a list of people, and concatenates and sends the XML for them all to the user, where a bit of XSLT creates a paged report. It works for a few people. If I try too many people it fails with an Error reading from remote server message from the Apache. I cannot find any hints in the apache or zope logs. I have tried to monitor the server to see if any resources are running out, but have not found anything. Can anyone suggest how I try to diagnose this failure. I repeat, I am fairly new to Zope, and so need fairly basic help. Dave --- End Message --- ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
[Zope] Re: Zope 2.8.4+Latest cygwin installation
I have no idea what the original symptom or situation was, so I can't really comment. I'll note, however, that the error refered to in Pascal's reply results from a wart in Python's type-definition protocols that I thought I had fixed, but maybe I proposed fixing it and didn't get around to it. :( More specific would be helpful. Is a custom C type involved here? Jim Tres Seaver wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Pascal Peregrina wrote: Ok, in case anyone is interested, this nasty code change made it : In Zope-2.8.4-final/lib/python/ZODB/serialize.py: Change : return klass.__new__(klass, *args) To : try: result=klass.__new__(klass, *args) except TypeError: result=Persistent.__new__(klass, *args) return result I think Jim is the only one who could explain what you see. I can't even find the place in the code which generates that error: $ find . -name "*.py" -o -name "*.c" | xargs grep "is not safe" ./RestrictedPython/RCompile.py:The UNPACK_SEQUENCE opcode is not safe because it extracts ./zope/security/untrustedpython/builtins.py:# It's better to say what is safe than it say what is not safe ./ZODB/tests/testmvcc.py:It is not safe, however, to read the current revision of "a" because $ Pascal -Message d'origine- De : [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] De la part de Pascal Peregrina Envoyé : jeudi 15 décembre 2005 12:51 À : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Objet : RE: [Zope] Zope 2.8.4+Latest cygwin installation Ok, just found it has already been reported several months ago, even with python 2.3.x: http://www.zope.org/Collectors/Zope/1725 Does someone know of any kind of temporary workaround for this ? Thanks ! Pascal -Message d'origine- De : [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] De la part de Pascal Peregrina Envoyé : jeudi 15 décembre 2005 12:25 À : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Objet : [Zope] Zope 2.8.4+Latest cygwin installation Hi, I would like to know if anyone has been able to compile and run Zope 2.8.4 with Cygwin. I just installed cygwin with latest stable packages. I compiled python 2.4.2 (I know, not the supported version, so I am about to try 2.3.5 now) I had issues with the socket module, and from google I applied a workaround that worked fine : in Modules/socketmodule.c Change : #if defined(__sgi) && !defined(INET_ADDRSTRLEN) #define INET_ADDRSTRLEN 16 #endif To : /*#if defined(__sgi) && !defined(INET_ADDRSTRLEN)*/ #define INET_ADDRSTRLEN 16 /*#endif*/ I made several python tests and all looks fine. Then I compiled Zope 2.8.4 without any issue. But when I run it, I get this error: Site Error An error was encountered while publishing this resource. exceptions.TypeError Sorry, a site error occurred. Traceback (innermost last): Module ZPublisher.Publish, line 187, in publish_module_standard Module Products.Localizer, line 58, in new_publish Module ZPublisher.Publish, line 144, in publish Module Zope2.App.startup, line 174, in zpublisher_exception_hook Module App.ZApplication, line 60, in __bobo_traverse__ Module UserDict, line 17, in __getitem__ Module ZODB.Connection, line 704, in setstate Module ZODB.Connection, line 760, in _setstate Module ZODB.serialize, line 495, in setGhostState Module ZODB.serialize, line 488, in getState Module ZODB.serialize, line 436, in _persistent_load Module ZODB.Connection, line 208, in get Module ZODB.serialize, line 482, in getGhost TypeError: Acquirer.__new__(Application) is not safe, use Persistence.Persistent.__new__() Does anyone know what I can do ? Thanks a lot. - -- === Tres Seaver +1 202-558-7113 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Palladion Software "Excellence by Design"http://palladion.com -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFDoX+I+gerLs4ltQ4RAnnCAJ93gKFJn8j/BPXK91RuuTMutLzrHACgtB56 NH2tqYHS/JPITSoVefuqkRU= =CCbu -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
[Zope] Re: [Zope3-dev] Zope 3.1.0 released!
Stephan Richter wrote: Hello everyone, The Zope 3 development team is proud to announce Zope 3.1.0 final. Zope 3 is the next major Zope release and has been written from scratch based on the latest software design patterns and the experiences of Zope 2. It is in our opinion that Zope 3.1 is more than ready for production use, which is why we decided to drop the 'X' for experimental from the name. We will also continue to work on making the transition between Zope 2 and Zope 3 as smooth as possible. As a first step, Zope 2.8 includes Zope 3 features in the form of Five. Now that we have a release that we would like to declare stable next week, we are looking for translators, who translate Zope 3 into their favorite language! We are utilizing the Rosetta system from Ubuntu for managing those translations. If you are not familiar with Rosetta, please send us a mail to zope3-dev@zope.org and we get you set up. Downloads http://zope.org/Products/Zope3/ This URL is incorrect. The correct URL is: http://zope.org/Products/Zope3 (no trailing slash) Sorry about the confusion. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
[Zope] Re: [Zope3-dev] Zope 3.1.0 RC 3 released!
rowser all interface types and discover interfaces that provide types; views are shown in the interface details screen; views and adapters are categorized into specific, extended and generic; user preferences allow you to customize certain views; 3rd party modules can now be added to the Code Browser. - Improved I18n-based number and datetime formatting by integrating 'pytz' for timezone support, implementing all missing format characters, and reinterpreting the ICU documentation to correctly parse patterns. - Added '++debug++' traversal adapter that allows you to turn on debugging flags in 'request.debug'. Currently the following flags are defined: source, tal, errors. - Improved logout support. - Added the HTTP request recorder, which lets you inspect raw HTTP requests and responses. It can be used to create functional doctests without requiring third-party tools such as TCPWatch. - Developed a generic 'browser:form' directive. It is pretty much the same as the 'browser:editform' directive, except that the data is not stored on some context or adapted context but sent as a dictionary to special method (by default). For a complete list of changes see the 'CHANGES.txt' file. Resources - "Zope 3 Development Web Site":http://dev.zope.org/Zope3 - "Zope 3 Dev Mailing List":http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-dev - "Zope 3 Users Mailing List":http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users - IRC Channel: #zope3-dev at irc.freenode.net Acknowledgments Thanks goes to everyone that contributed. Enjoy! The Zope 3 Development Team ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/jim%40zope.com -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] RFC: Requiring Python 2.4 in Zope 2.9
Alan Milligan wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Jim Fulton wrote: Comments are welcome. :) If the work indicated in the security audit does not require additional effort for 2.9, Effort will be needed. > then it would be best to get it into 2.8 ASAP, allowing 2.8 to be run under 2.3 or 2.4 as an 'approved' transitional environment. That is out of scope for the proposal. ... Until then, in the interests of not alienating a large user base, a 2.8.x release approved for 2.4 would be most appreciated. This would require a new 2.8 release and would require a volunteer to make the necessary security changes. If Andreas wants to make another release and there is a volunteer to do the security changes, then it's OK with me, although I'm not sure it's worth the bother. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] RFC: Requiring Python 2.4 in Zope 2.9
Chris Withers wrote: Jim Fulton wrote: At: http://www.zope.org/Wikis/DevSite/Proposals/RequirePython24> Is a proposal to require Python 2.4 for Zope 2.9 (to be released this December). Comments are welcome. :) Well, it'd be nice if Python 2.4 was at least "acceptable" for 2.8.x first, so the 3rd part products have some chance of finding 2.4 bugs... As someone else pointed out, it's usable with Zope 2.7, at least for testing, so someone should certainaly be able to test their products under Zope 2.8 and Python 2.4. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
[Zope] RFC: Requiring Python 2.4 in Zope 2.9
At: http://www.zope.org/Wikis/DevSite/Proposals/RequirePython24> Is a proposal to require Python 2.4 for Zope 2.9 (to be released this December). Comments are welcome. :) Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
[Zope] Re: [Zope3-dev] Zope 3 Bug Day Summary
Stephan Richter wrote: Hello everyone! I just wanted to let everyone know that we had a very successfull Zope 3 Bug Day today! I would like to thank Zope Corporation, POV, Nuxeo and the other community members for supporting this event by providing the manpower we needed! We were able to fix all outstanding bugs that prohibited us from making the first release candidate of Zope 3.1. As a result, I will create the 3.1 branch today, lift the feature freeze, and make a release later this weekend or first thing on Monday. I want to second this thanks. I'm very happy to see 3.1 finally nearing completon. Jim P.S. I'd like to remind everyone that there are just 3 months left before the feature freeze for 3.2. :) -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
[Zope] Re: Zope Foundation Update
Dave Kuhlman wrote: On Tue, Jul 19, 2005 at 07:07:25PM -0400, Rob Page wrote: [snip] During my stay at EuroPython I learned that eighteen months ago (and without Zope Corporation's knowledge or consent) Zope Europe Association (ZEA) registered a trademark consisting of the Cirlce-Z (the stylized Z surrounded by a circle) followed by the word ZOPE (hereinafter "Circle-Z-Zope"). The mark they registered is identical to the corporate logo used by Zope Corporation. At the Zope Europe Association Web site (http://www.zope-europe.org/), the logo is 3 cubes with a 3-dimensional look. Has Zope Europe Association registered the Circle-Z-Zope trademark but is not using it? Apparently. Go to: http://www.wipo.int/ipdl/en/search/madrid/search-struct.jsp and enter "Zope" in the "Holder Name" field and click "Search". You will see 5 results. The first is for the Zope Corporation registration of the name "Zope", registered in May 2004. The next four results are for ZEA's registrations of the Zope and Plone marks, with logos (2 each, for different sets of countries) registered in July and September of 2004. > Or is there another Zope Europe Association? Nope, the addresses match. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Re: Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
Florent Guillaume wrote: Chris Withers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Jake wrote: Jim Fulton said: (There are no plans to deprecate DTML. It is even supported in Zope 3.) That is the best news I have heard all day (although, it is early). I will be selling black flags for the mourning of a missed opportunity... DTML is very nice for some things. And for beginners. Only the magic namespaces of DTML are bad, and those are gone in Zope 3. I wish they were gone, but they are still there. Someday, I'd like to se a TALES-based DTML, but I doubt I'll ever have time to do it. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
[Zope] Re: Does anyone care whether we deprecate
Well said. I mostly agree, however, there needs to be a balance. We are introducing a process for orderly deprecation of features. I hope it works. It's mainly useful for changes that are straightforward to recover from. We have to balance lots of different factors taking into account *everybodies* interests, the best we can *together*. Jim Andrew Milton wrote: I think people on this list need to realize that eventually, the direction of any significantly large Open Source project is hijacked by the relatively small number of people actually doing the work. The reasons for this are many-fold, but, normally come down to a lack of communication between the developers and the users, which is realized in a lack of understanding by the developers of what the users want. This for the most part isn't generally a problem, until, the developers start to do things "for the user's own good", like remove features that are "kludgey", or a "hack", or , which generally means either noone wants to work on it, or some other change caused it to break, and noone wants to fix it. Now to the credit of the Zope guys, they actually poll the users to find out, rather than just announce the demise of something. However, in general once you add a feature, you can be guaranteed, that somewhere, someone is using it, so removing it will always cause a problem. So there will always be an uproar when you poll. You're never going to be able to reduce the feature set between point releases without upsetting some group of people. So why don't we stop all this nonsense now, and just agree, that you're never going to do that d8) You have Zope 3 to remove all the stuff you hate d8) In my opinion if you change something, it's your responsibility to fix the resulting breakage. That's part of your responsibiliity to the rest of the community (i.e. the [mostly non-paying] customers). If you don't think you have this responsibility to us, then you should work on your own version of Zope, where you're not impacting anyone else. For the record, I hate ZClasses... d8) -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
[Zope] Re: Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
Jonathan Cyr wrote: Yoohoo, ZClasses are not an expert technology to use, they are an introduction to Zope... Just because I use a thing, doesn't mean I can support/maintain a thing. Exactly. I want you to use Zope even if you aren't in a position to maintain it yourself. > I can read the list, and try to help folks with questions that I've experienced... that's the support that can be offered at my skill level. Which is extremely valuable. If that's not enough... fine... drop ZClasses, then DTML (you know, its next)... and all the folks in this boat with me. (There are no plans to deprecate DTML. It is even supported in Zope 3.) ZC should decide whether the benefits of ZClasses for low-end developers match against the hurdles to keeping it with the newer Zope releases. If they don't see a need for this skill-level type of tool in Zope's feature list, they will pay down the road... Growth is king, even for Zope, who grew this platform? Growth means newbies, right? What elements got Zope to where it is? Could ZClasses be on that list? Why? Vey well said. I think this is, but should not be underestimated. This is something I think about a lot. I think Zope needs to support developers and non developers. Zope 2 was weak in supporting developers. Over the years, new techniques and technologies have evolved to make Zope development better for proffessional developers, but we still need the non-developers. And seeing comments like... - "Move to Zope Python Products" - you cant see the skill differences between OOP & Zope's API vs. ZClasses - "Use the Archetypes/CMF/Plone setup" - UML training? the CMF API and Plone underpinnings, easy? - "Maintain it yourself then" - Update very slick code within Zope's flexible and aging API, with ZODB API too? Maintain it...Yeah sure, hows this afternoon. ... just show me how under-represented that beginner and intermediate Zope developers use this list... and then I think, perhaps there aren't any, just me and a few others... and if that's the case, Zope's screwed, and the horse I rode in on. :) This list is for you. While you shouldn't have to maintain Zope yourself, you *do* need to be vocal about what you want. (Of course, at some point, work needs to get paid for. If someone wants a new feature that the developers don't want to develop out of the goodness of their hearts or even an old feature that no one wants to maintain, someone may have to be willing to fund some development. I'm not asking for this in this case.) And so here's the confession... "Hello, I'm Jon... I've used Zope for 2 years, and I can't help others program high-level Python OOP tools/platform resources in a propriety web content management server. I only can support their efforts when the occasional mailing list opportunities present themselves." And that support is greatly appreciated! Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
[Zope] Re: Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
Ausum Studio wrote: ... As for ZC, IMHO the issue should be treated as a matter of understanding the market rather than achieving a milestone. You created stuff that works in some way or another that people embraced. You also changed your company name to the name of the product of yours that people embraced. And no matter how much hype there is on new trends, you should realize that a song is just a song until the market say it's a hit, and that X3 is that song. Shall you start to put Zope2 into pieces before getting to know you already have a hit? :) Well said. I couldn't agree more. That's why ZC continues to spend lots of time maintaining and enhancing Zope 2. It's why I see many Zope 2 releases ahead and why, every time I speak to large groups of people, I tell people not to feel a need to rush to Zope 3. There is absolutely no intention to make the mistakes of other projects to have an untested new version replace an established new version prematurely. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
[Zope] Re: Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
Andreas Jung wrote: --On Dienstag, 5. April 2005 16:38 Uhr -0400 Jake <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: And that is probably the best arguement for keeping them around longer. We should get to the point: if some people depend on ZClasses then they should take over some responsibility in maintaining them in future releases. Be careful here. While there is value in deciding priorities based on willingness of people to help. We want people to use Zope *even* if they can't maintain it. It would be a huge mistake to gibe people the impression that they should only use Zope if they are prepared to maintain it themselves. In other words, the availability of volunteers is a good criteria for selecting *new* features. > It can not be that a "feature" regarded as obsolete (from the majority) and almost unmaintained and untouched since ages holds up further releases. It is being maintained now. I don't think we can choose not to maintain such an important feature. I agree that new features should only be done of there are developers willing to do them. > I agree with Jim that they should be officially deprecated - means they could be removed in Zope 2.10. Whoa, I'm not advocating that. I was asking if anyone cared. I strongly suspected that there would be people who did care. I've gotten a lot of grief because of the effort I've been putting into getting them to work with Zope 2.8 and the effect that that has had on the 2.8 schedule. Many active Zope developers are (understandbly) dismissive of ZClasses, but I think we can't ignore the many people who depend on them. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
[Zope] Re: Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
Lennart Regebro wrote: On the Paris sprint, one thing that was noted was how ironic it was that the release of 2.8, which includes support for the new recommended development paradigm, was held up becuase we neeeded to support an old non-recommended one. :-) It boils down to backward compatibility. Backward compatibility is important. People aren't going to use our platform if it keeps changing. in backward incompatible ways without reletively smooth transition tools. We can't simply drop such a critical feature just because we don't want to maintain it. Heck, I'd love to drop version support from ZODB, but I'm not going to until I can offer a replacement to the people who depend on versions today. Anyway, my main question is: You who are using ZClasses, can't you just stay on Zope2.8 or 2.9, if Zope 2.10 would not contain ZClass support? The main features of 2.8 is support for the component architecture, For many people, the main features of 2.8 are multi-version concurrency control and better garbage collection. > and for zope 2.9 and 2.10 this will be even more true: there will most likely be very few new features besides this. I wouldn't assume that. People continue to do interesting things on this platform. In any case, if we put people in the place where they couldn't (in a practical, rather than theoretical sense) migrate from a particular version, then we'd have to consider maintaining that version longer that we otherwise would, if only to give people bug fixes (especially security fixes). > With 2.9 or 2.10 the idea is that you can use both ZClasses, *and* write products that work under Zope3. I'm not even sure there will be a 2.10, and in any case you won't really have much need of it. I'd be very surprised if there was not a Zope 2.10, or even a Zope 2.11. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
[Zope] Re: Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
Dieter Maurer wrote: Lennart Regebro wrote at 2005-4-5 11:48 +0200: On the Paris sprint, one thing that was noted was how ironic it was that the release of 2.8, which includes support for the new recommended development paradigm, was held up becuase we neeeded to support an old non-recommended one. :-) "ZClasses" feature prominently in the Zope book. That should probably be fixed. Seems they are more recommended than the new development paradigm (which does not yet feature at all in the Zope book). The new developement paradigm is featured prominantly in 2 new books. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
Jim Fulton wrote: Jake wrote: My question, since it now seems like I am not the only one using ZClasses I doubt that that is the case. Sorry, I missread your note. I meant to say that I was sure you are *not* the only one using ZClasses. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
Jake wrote: My question, since it now seems like I am not the only one using ZClasses I doubt that that is the case. is, why not support them? You listed out the reasons why someone wouldn't want to use them going forward, but what are the reasons why not to support them as legacy into 3/2.10? Are you saying you want them in 2.10 but not necessarily beyond that (e.g. 2.11)? Or that you don't see why we don't support them indefinately? It takes effort to support old features. We have to weigh the benefits against the cost of the feature. For example, Zope 2.8 has been delayed substantially due to the effort to keep them going. If people find them useful, then we can keep them, but we don't want to keep them otherwise. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
Jake wrote: As someone who has at least 5 different products using ZClasses across 10 different websites with millions of hits a month, I am certainly not happy to see them go, but I do understand that their time has come. If they are supported in 2.8 -> 2.9 and gone in 3.0 I guess that is ok. If we deprecated them now, they would be gone in 2.10 (not to be confused with 3.0) too. Again, it is going to take me and others a lot of work to migrate out our data from those products into other vehicles but such is progress. A decision hasn't been made. People who don't use them feel strongly that they should go. I'm trying to get a sense of how widely they are used. I'm trying to understand if people who use ZClasses are a silent majority, minority, or small minority. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
Allen Schmidt wrote: -l for deprecation ...until we build a replacement anyway... What do you mean by "replacement"? In Zope 3, I plan to provide persistent modules to support prototying new applications through the web. It will be possible to automatically convert these to file-system-based packages once you are ready to move to production and evolutionary development. I expect this capability to appear in Zope 2 eventually. Would this be a suitable replacement? Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
[Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
ZClasses are a feature that support through-the-web development. Many people have found them useful in the past, but they have some significant deficiencies, including: - They can't be managed with file-system tools, especially revision control systems like CVS and subversion. - They don't work well with Python development tools, like profilers and debugger. - They aren't being actively maintained. Most serious Zope developers stopped using them a long time ago and are frustrated that we still expend resources keeping them around. For example, the release of Zope 2.8 has been delayed by the requirement of getting ZClasses working with Zope 2.8. We could choose to deprecate ZClasses. If we deprecated them in Zope 2.8, they would still work in Zope 2.8 and Zope 2.9, but their support would be removed in Zope 2.10. Would anyone be upset if this happened? Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
[Zope] ANNOUNCE ZEO 0.3 Released
A new release of Zope Enterprise Objects (ZEO) is available at: http://www.zope.org/Products/ZEO. This release fixes a bug that caused spurious conflict errors and that could eventually make it impossible to make changes without restarting a ZEO client (e.g. Zope process). The release also has two enhancements when running the ZEO server on Unix: - When the storage server start script is run as root, the script will switch to a different user (nobody by default). There is a new '-u' option that can be used to specify the user. - The storage server will gracefully close served storages when the server is killed with a SIGTERM or SIGHUP. If a FileStorage is being served, then an index file will be written. If you encounter problems with ZEO, please report them using the ZEO issue tracker at: http://www.zope.org/Products/ZEO/Tracker. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! Technical Director (888) 344-4332http://www.python.org Digital Creationshttp://www.digicool.com http://www.zope.org Under US Code Title 47, Sec.227(b)(1)(C), Sec.227(a)(2)(B) This email address may not be added to any commercial mail list with out my permission. Violation of my privacy with advertising or SPAM will result in a suit for a MINIMUM of $500 damages/incident, $1500 for repeats. ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Corruption caused by 'Pack'?
Marcin Kasperski wrote: > > After using succesfully zope for some time I decided to cut a bit the > database size. So I went to Control Panel/Database and clicked "Pack" > for objects older than 10 days. At first everything seemed to work (I > returned to the management screen seeing new - smaller - Data.fs size), > but when I tried to preview my pages, terrible things happened - most > pages turned to be not available, instead of seeing them I saw zope > errors with useless descriptions like 'Zope error: error' etc > (restarting browser and zope did not helped). > > Happily, during the process, the Data.fs.old file was created - stopping > Zope, removing all Data.fs. and overwritting Data.fs with > Data.fs.old returned zope instance to the previous state. So I will not > click 'Pack' anymore. > > Has anyone notified similar problems? What could be going on? I looked into this and reproduced the problem you had with the data file you sent to Brian. Thanks. Sadly, the bug was a bug that was fixed in Zope 2.1, but which didn't make it into the main CVS trunck and wasn't included in 2.2. :( The fix will be included in Zope 2.2.1. The bug happens when you pack the database and there were some undone transactions after the pack time and before some version commits. The fix for this has been reapplied to the 2.2 branch and the main trunk and I've verified that it fixes the problem you saw. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! Technical Director (888) 344-4332http://www.python.org Digital Creationshttp://www.digicool.com http://www.zope.org Under US Code Title 47, Sec.227(b)(1)(C), Sec.227(a)(2)(B) This email address may not be added to any commercial mail list with out my permission. Violation of my privacy with advertising or SPAM will result in a suit for a MINIMUM of $500 damages/incident, $1500 for repeats. ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
[Zope] ANNOUNCE ZEO 0.2.3 Released
A new bug-fix release of ZEO is available at: http://www.zope.org/Products/ZEO. This release makes versions work with ZEO. Previously, versions were almost entirely broken. See the CHANGES.txt file in the release for a list of other bugs fixed. If you encounter problems with ZEO, please report them using the ZEO issue tracker at: http://www.zope.org/Products/ZEO/Tracker. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! Technical Director (888) 344-4332http://www.python.org Digital Creationshttp://www.digicool.com http://www.zope.org Under US Code Title 47, Sec.227(b)(1)(C), Sec.227(a)(2)(B) This email address may not be added to any commercial mail list with out my permission. Violation of my privacy with advertising or SPAM will result in a suit for a MINIMUM of $500 damages/incident, $1500 for repeats. ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
[Zope] ANNOUNCE ZEO 0.2.2 Released
A new bug-fiz release of ZEO is abailable at: http://www.zope.org/Products/ZEO. This release fixes a serious bug that was made effective by Zope 2.2.1 and recent changes checked into the Zope CVS. This release also provides fixes and documentation for the -S option to the server startup script, which allows any kind of storage and multiple storages to be served. If you encounter problems with ZEO, please report them using the ZEO issue tracker at: http://www.zope.org/Products/ZEO/Tracker. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! Technical Director (888) 344-4332http://www.python.org Digital Creationshttp://www.digicool.com http://www.zope.org Under US Code Title 47, Sec.227(b)(1)(C), Sec.227(a)(2)(B) This email address may not be added to any commercial mail list with out my permission. Violation of my privacy with advertising or SPAM will result in a suit for a MINIMUM of $500 damages/incident, $1500 for repeats. ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
[Zope] ZEO 0.2.1 doesn't work with Zope 2.2.1 FileStorage
There is a bug in ZEO 0.2.1 which was made effective by Zope 2.2.1 (which has just beed released in beta). I plan to release ZEO 0.2.2 shortly, which fixes this bug. If you are using ZEO, please hold off of using Zope 2.2.1 (or an up-to-date Zope public CVS) until you can install ZEO 0.2.2. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! Technical Director (888) 344-4332http://www.python.org Digital Creationshttp://www.digicool.com http://www.zope.org Under US Code Title 47, Sec.227(b)(1)(C), Sec.227(a)(2)(B) This email address may not be added to any commercial mail list with out my permission. Violation of my privacy with advertising or SPAM will result in a suit for a MINIMUM of $500 damages/incident, $1500 for repeats. ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
[Zope] Note on 2GB limit for ZODB FileStorage (was Re: [Zope] Re: ZEO and 2gbmax limit for linux .. not for solaris etc.)max limit for linux .. not for solaris etc.)
Please note that we recently found a bug in ZODB FileStorage that causes it to fail miserably if a file gets over 2GB. This bug is fixed in Zope 2.2.1, which is being released in beta today. Note that even with this fix, your OS/File-System/Python-config must support files over 2GB to allow large FileStorage. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! Technical Director (888) 344-4332http://www.python.org Digital Creationshttp://www.digicool.com http://www.zope.org Under US Code Title 47, Sec.227(b)(1)(C), Sec.227(a)(2)(B) This email address may not be added to any commercial mail list with out my permission. Violation of my privacy with advertising or SPAM will result in a suit for a MINIMUM of $500 damages/incident, $1500 for repeats. ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
[Zope] Re: [Zope-dev] Permission
Tom Deprez wrote: > > Hi, > > I have this q'n already a long time in my head and I still don't know the > answer to it. It has to do with the security-view. I hope that someone can > shed a light on my brains. > > Why is their an Acquire permission (referred to as acq_perm in following > text) checkbox column? It allows you to honor permission settings made in containing objects. > In order to change a permission for a certain role, we have to check or > uncheck this permission at the roles permission checkbox. I don't understand this. You can grant permissions to a role locally, regardless of whether you acquire permission settings. If you don't acquire, then the role only gets the permissions you set, otherwise, it *may* get permissions from above. > However, for this > to work we have to uncheck the acq_perm column (because if this one is > checked, the permission is taken from parent-folder-objects anyway, the > value of the role checkbox doesn't counts at that moment). You don't have to ncheck the acq_perm column if you simply want to grant a permission to a role. You only need to uncheck the acq_perm column if you want to prevent containing objects from granting a permission to other roles. > As a drawback, > this means that all roles have to be checked/unchecked, because they don't > acquire the permission anymore from one of its parents-folder-objects. So don't uncheck the acq_perm column. > Now, why couldn't this be implemented like the following? Isn't this easier > to grasp? > > The Acq_perm column doesn't exists. Assume that acquisition of a permission > is always Active. The checkboxes of the role show their actual value > (according to the acquisition). Thus if permissionA is checked in the > parent-object, permissionA is also checked. If you want, for a certain role > that this permission is not given, you uncheck permissionA. The subobject > will show an unchecked permissionA box (because it acquires from its > parent). In order to give the subobject again the permission, we only have > to check permissionA. The problem with this is that it doesn't recognize changes made to containers later. > A) In the first approach we've to uncheck the acq_perm checkbox and have to > set the checkbox of every role according to how we want the permission to > be handled by that role. You don't need to uncheck the acq_perm checkbox unless you want to prevent containers from granting permissions. > B) In the second approach we've to uncheck the permission checkbox of the > role(s). Other roles are not effected. > > Am I missing something here? Is my explenation somewhere wrong? Why does > Zope uses the first approach? Which, sounds for me, a little bit more > complicated. By acquiring permission settings you are allowing containers to grant a permission to a role today or sometime in the future. This allows someone to control permissions in a centralized fashion. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! Technical Director (888) 344-4332http://www.python.org Digital Creationshttp://www.digicool.com http://www.zope.org Under US Code Title 47, Sec.227(b)(1)(C), Sec.227(a)(2)(B) This email address may not be added to any commercial mail list with out my permission. Violation of my privacy with advertising or SPAM will result in a suit for a MINIMUM of $500 damages/incident, $1500 for repeats. ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
[Zope] Re: [Zope-dev] Request for Comment: Zope API naming convention
Jim Fulton wrote: > > There is a proposal to adopt a naming convention for all > new Zope API methods at: > > http://dev.zope.org/Wikis/DevSite/Proposals/APINamingConvention > > Comments are gratefully accepted at: > > http://dev.zope.org/Wikis/DevSite/Proposals/APINamingConventionDiscussion > > Please make comments by Wednesday April 16. Sorry, make that August 16. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! Technical Director (888) 344-4332http://www.python.org Digital Creationshttp://www.digicool.com http://www.zope.org Under US Code Title 47, Sec.227(b)(1)(C), Sec.227(a)(2)(B) This email address may not be added to any commercial mail list with out my permission. Violation of my privacy with advertising or SPAM will result in a suit for a MINIMUM of $500 damages/incident, $1500 for repeats. ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
[Zope] Request for Comment: Zope API naming convention
There is a proposal to adopt a naming convention for all new Zope API methods at: http://dev.zope.org/Wikis/DevSite/Proposals/APINamingConvention Comments are gratefully accepted at: http://dev.zope.org/Wikis/DevSite/Proposals/APINamingConventionDiscussion Please make comments by Wednesday April 16. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! Technical Director (888) 344-4332http://www.python.org Digital Creationshttp://www.digicool.com http://www.zope.org Under US Code Title 47, Sec.227(b)(1)(C), Sec.227(a)(2)(B) This email address may not be added to any commercial mail list with out my permission. Violation of my privacy with advertising or SPAM will result in a suit for a MINIMUM of $500 damages/incident, $1500 for repeats. ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Bi-directional update of Data.fs
Chris Withers wrote: > (snip) > Definitely, can someone say whether QuorumBasedReplication would handle > this on whether it's designed more for real-time replication between > storage servers in the ZEO world? It's designed for real-time replication. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! Technical Director (888) 344-4332http://www.python.org Digital Creationshttp://www.digicool.com http://www.zope.org Under US Code Title 47, Sec.227(b)(1)(C), Sec.227(a)(2)(B) This email address may not be added to any commercial mail list with out my permission. Violation of my privacy with advertising or SPAM will result in a suit for a MINIMUM of $500 damages/incident, $1500 for repeats. ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ZWiki/Structured Text formatting surprise
Stephen Harrison wrote:
>
> Jim Fulton wrote:
> >
> > Chris Withers wrote:
> > >
> > > Jim Fulton wrote:
> > > > I suggest that, since this appeared in a code snippit to begin
> > > > with, it should have been written as:
> > > >
> > > > blah blah '(_.None,_,foo)' blah blah
> > >
> > > I don't format my code like that ;-)
> >
> > I'm not sure what the ';)' refers to, but single quotes are
> > the correct way to indicate literal code in structured text.
>
> That seems to be a rather inappropriate character to quote code with.
>
> You can't quote any of the vast reams of code which uses quotes, such
> as:
>
> REQUEST.set('id', 'value')
>
> or any other similar code.
I'm open to a different quoting convention.
Note that for basic Python code, you can simply
switch the quotes, as in:
'REQUEST.set("id", "value")'
but, of course, this doesn't work for DTML.
> As an aside, I just tried, in
> http://www.zope.org/Wikis/zope-edu/SandBox, quoting the code:
>
>
>
> It didn't work, so I then tried
>
>
>
> which also didn't work,
This is due to the fact that StructuredText has a
bug in the handling of inline code. It failes to
HTML-quote the contents. This can be fixed,
but you still can't quote:
> but it did work if I quoted it by escaping the
> following paragraph using the :: syntax.
This doesn't "escape" the following paragraph, it makes it
a literal example. StructuredText *does* properly quote
non-inline examples.
> This indicated that the 'some code' functionality is in some way broken,
> since it doesn't happen before executing any dtml which might be on the
> page.
Yup. This is not a fatal flaw in itself, as it can be fixed.
Still, the DTML bit above is problemantic.
A number of people have complained about the use os single quotes
for in-line code. One possibel alternative is to use ``code''.
See http://www.zope.org/Members/jim/StructuredTextWiki/CustomizingTheDocumentProcessor
Jim
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Re: [Zope] data record exceeds transaction record
Jonathan Desp wrote: > > > Hi, here is the information of my problem: > > File "C:\Program Files\WebSite\lib\python\ZODB\FileStorage.py", line 218, in p > anic > raise CorruptedTransactionError, message > ZODB.FileStorage.CorruptedTransactionError: C:\Program Files\WebSite/var/Data.fs > data record exceeds transaction record at 20663057 > > > > that's special, see, if you analyse the sentence: > > data record exceeds transaction record > > it's like saying: > > you transfered more data than the quantity(of data) you have presently. > > " I will transfer 5 apples, but I have only 4 apples." > > hmm Hmm. The sentence describes a situation that shouldn't be possible right? That's why the file must be corrupted. The error message is telling you why the system determined that something is wrong. I'd be interested in looking at the database to try to figure out how this happened. If you are willing to pursue this, write me back in a private email. > interesting problem to fix. > > some ways I got from you: > > the "recover" program with Zope 2.2, but I didnot find out why it should be useful >for me. When I read the "readme file". The recover program in 2.2 will remove damaged transactions from a database file. While this may cause data loss, you can at least get your database up and running again. This seems pretty useful to me. This program isn't mentioned in the README.txt. See the script in lib/python/ZODB/fsrecover.py. You run this script with the name of the file to repair. Note that the repair is made in-place, so you will need to work on a copy or shut your site down. > In my netscape browser, I can read: "exceptions.ImportError" then I read all the >message related to this problem, in every mailing list, but there is no solution to >it, or related to it on those messages. I can't tell from the information you've provided why you would get an error in your browser. > Is it a new bug or ? Your database got corrupted. I don't know why. It's possible that it's due to a bug. It's also possible that it's due to a system failure. I don't have enough information to tell right now. > Because my website is very big. I don't think it's very important because there is >some other data.fs more bigger than 31 381 Ko. As long as your database is under 2GB, size should not be a problem. Zope.org has been close to 2GB on a number of occasions without problem. > It's not a server or a hardware problem because I tested my data.fs on another >hardware,machine. As well as it's not a another file in zope, because I tested that >data.fs on zope linux, and zope windows. So it's really inside data.fs The data file is definiately corrupted. That's what the error tracsbeack says. It's a "FileStorage.CorruptedTransactionError". The question is how the file got that way. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! Technical Director (888) 344-4332http://www.python.org Digital Creationshttp://www.digicool.com http://www.zope.org Under US Code Title 47, Sec.227(b)(1)(C), Sec.227(a)(2)(B) This email address may not be added to any commercial mail list with out my permission. Violation of my privacy with advertising or SPAM will result in a suit for a MINIMUM of $500 damages/incident, $1500 for repeats. ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ZWiki/Structured Text formatting surprise
Chris Withers wrote: > > Jim Fulton wrote: (snip) > > > How about extending ! beyond just escaping WikiNames? > > > > I *really* **really** hate the ! wiki name escape. > > Why? A goal of structured text is that it should be readable in it's original form. The conventions used should mimic the kinds of things we do in email, to the extent possible. The bang ascape totally violates this. > > > ! escapes structured text if it directly precedes a formatting > > > character. > > > !! actually puts a ! if it does indeed need to proceed a formatting > > > character. > > > > I really don't like this. > > Hmmm, I would write 'Why?' again, but I think that'd be flame-bating ;-) Not at all. > I think there should be some form of escaping, ! seems the most compact > and unobtrusive ,or maybe ^ or some such... > > Ideas welcomely recieved :-) I can't think of any. I'm open to suggestions, but I reserve the right to hate the suggestions. :) While I'm open to escaping, I'd also really like to think harder about the formatting conventions so as to make escaping unnecessary. If we need to escape, we've probably done something wrong. I actually think that the otion of in-line code is useful as a typographic feature and should really eliminate the need for escaping in most if not all cases. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! Technical Director (888) 344-4332http://www.python.org Digital Creationshttp://www.digicool.com http://www.zope.org Under US Code Title 47, Sec.227(b)(1)(C), Sec.227(a)(2)(B) This email address may not be added to any commercial mail list with out my permission. Violation of my privacy with advertising or SPAM will result in a suit for a MINIMUM of $500 damages/incident, $1500 for repeats. ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ZWiki/Structured Text formatting surprise
Chris Withers wrote: > > Jim Fulton wrote: > > I suggest that, since this appeared in a code snippit to begin > > with, it should have been written as: > > > > blah blah '(_.None,_,foo)' blah blah > > I don't format my code like that ;-) I'm not sure what the ';)' refers to, but single quotes are the correct way to indicate literal code in structured text. (snip) > > If you do, please suggest an escaping syntax. Please > > think hard to come up with an escaping syntax that I don't hate. ;) > > How about extending ! beyond just escaping WikiNames? I *really* **really** hate the ! wiki name escape. > ! escapes structured text if it directly precedes a formatting > character. > !! actually puts a ! if it does indeed need to proceed a formatting > character. I really don't like this. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! Technical Director (888) 344-4332http://www.python.org Digital Creationshttp://www.digicool.com http://www.zope.org Under US Code Title 47, Sec.227(b)(1)(C), Sec.227(a)(2)(B) This email address may not be added to any commercial mail list with out my permission. Violation of my privacy with advertising or SPAM will result in a suit for a MINIMUM of $500 damages/incident, $1500 for repeats. ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
[Zope] ANNOUNCE ZEO 0.2.1
A new release of Zope Enterprise Objects (ZEO) is available at http://www.zope.org/Products/ZEO. ZEO turns the Zope object system into a distributed architecture, allowing multiple processors, machines, and networks to act as one website. This release fixes two bugs in release 0.2: - ZEO clients didn't work properly (effectively at all) on Solaris or Windows NT. - An error in the handling of the distributed transaction lock could cause a client to stop writing and eventually hang if two clients tried to commit a transaction at the same time. - Extra (harmless) messages were sent from the server when invalidating objects during a commit. - New protocols (especially 'loadSerial'), used for looking at DTML historical versions, were not implemented. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! Technical Director (888) 344-4332http://www.python.org Digital Creationshttp://www.digicool.com http://www.zope.org Under US Code Title 47, Sec.227(b)(1)(C), Sec.227(a)(2)(B) This email address may not be added to any commercial mail list with out my permission. Violation of my privacy with advertising or SPAM will result in a suit for a MINIMUM of $500 damages/incident, $1500 for repeats. ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ZWiki/Structured Text formatting surprise
Chris Withers wrote: > > Bill Anderson wrote: > > Why not put a space in there, after the comma? As in: > > (_.None, _, foo) I suggest that, since this appeared in a code snippit to begin with, it should have been written as: blah blah '(_.None,_,foo)' blah blah in which case, the '_'s shouldn't have had any effect. (If they did, it's a bug). Note that the StructuredText underlining feature is widely considered a missfeature and probably won't be supported in StructuredTextNG. > > Likewise, I tried this in the Sandbox. Works for me. :) > > I'd prefer to see a generic way of escaping structured text formatting. > > Maybe this is something for StructuredTextNG? Maybe. I'd really prefer that this not be necessary. Maybe someone should add this escaping feature to the StructuredText Wiki at http://www.zope.org/Members/jim/StructuredTextWiki/StructuredTextNG. If you do, please suggest an escaping syntax. Please think hard to come up with an escaping syntax that I don't hate. ;) Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! Technical Director (888) 344-4332http://www.python.org Digital Creationshttp://www.digicool.com http://www.zope.org Under US Code Title 47, Sec.227(b)(1)(C), Sec.227(a)(2)(B) This email address may not be added to any commercial mail list with out my permission. Violation of my privacy with advertising or SPAM will result in a suit for a MINIMUM of $500 damages/incident, $1500 for repeats. ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] CorruptTransactionError (Bad news for production site!)
Richard Taylor wrote:
>
> Today I had to role back two days of transactions from my production
> site because when I packed the database I was informed of a
> CorruptTransactionError.
Did anything else happen previous to this? Did you run out of space
or anything like that?
You should have been able to use Data.fs.old, which is a copy
of the database before the pack to restore the data. Or was the
error in there too? I'd be interested in looking at the Data.fs
file before the pack to try to figure out what might have gone wrong.
(If you send my your Data.fs file, please remember to send it
to me privately and to zip or compress it. :)
> We are using Zope for an internal knowledge management application
> where anyone in the organization can add objects. So I have no way of
> know what was added after the fateful transaction and no way of
> getting any of it back.
>
> Bummer!
Indeed.
> I think this raises a few questions about ZDB:
>
> 1) We need some tools for selectively removing bad transactions
>rather than just truncating Data.fs back to the last good one and
>loosing everything that comes after it.
Zope 2.2 has just such a tool. In the ZODB directory, there is a
Python script, fsrecover.py which simply calls the recover function
in the FileStorage module. This will work with any 2.x databases.
It scans from both the beginning and the end of the file until
it finds a corrupted section and then removes the corrupted portion
from the file. You utility modifies the file in-place, so you need
to shut-down the site, or work on a copy when you use it.
> 2) We could do with a tools that can verify the ZODB offline. This
>could then be run at regular intervals (maybe once an hour from
>cron) so that corruptions can be picked up earlier.
You could use a little Python script that did something like:
import ZODB.FileStorage
file_name='../../var/Data.fs'
file=open(file_name, 'r+b')
index={}
vindex={}
tindex=[]
ZODB.FileStorage.read_index(
file, file_name, index, vindex, tindex)
This basically reads the FileStorage index as would normally
be done during startup.
> 3) Some way to find out what was added after a corrupt transaction is
>needed so that at least I could see who I need to ask to re-add
> their stuff.
The fsrecover script should avoid the need for this.
Jim
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Re: [Zope] ZODB performance: reads to writes
Ty Sarna wrote: > > In article <000d01bfddfb$4546f070$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, > Evan Simpson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > - Original Message - > > From: Jimmie Houchin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > Will an app as described above still suffer from problems with high > > writes? > > > > Possibly, but only if there are hidden hotspots. For example, in your > [...]> > > 2. Implement the application-level conflict handling you read about, so that > > Folders and Catalogs can decide that two writes don't conflict after all, > > and merge them into a single update. > > Unfortunately, this doesn't deal with cases where the conflicting state > is contained in many objects (see note by PJE in the ZODB Wiki). Yes it does. (See my response to PJE's note.) > Also, there is a whole other area of difficulty for high-write-volume > ZODBs, which is the ammount of IO that needs to be done. First, by > nature ZODB can't rewrite a single attribute of an object, it has to > rewrite the entire thing. Each object (that subclasses Persistent) is analigous to a database record. When you modify a part of the object (that isn't it's own persistent object) then you write the entire record. This seems pretty reasonable to me. Part of ZODB database design, where it matters, is to balence the size of database objects. If objects are too big, then the amount of data written on a change is larger. If objects are too small, then you may incur too much persistence overhead. Most apps don't need this level of tuning. > Indexing is also a bear from an IO perspective. First, BTrees currently > keep a count at each level, so every change to a btree changes a node at > each level of the BTree. For a ZCatalog, there are a lot of btrees > (something like 2n+4 for n indexes, I think -- don't quote me on that, > it's been a while), and each one changes (last I looked, every index was > updated even if the value indexed in a particular one hadn't changed. > This may have been improved since). Not only is this bad from a hotspot > point of view (always a conflict on the root node of the tree), but you > end up doing a *lot* of IO. During my experiments that led to > BerkeleyStorage, I was watching the Data.fs grow by 47K per transaction > for adding indexed objects of ~1K in size. Watching this with > tranalyzer, this turns out to be 1K of object, and 46K of updated btree > pages :). This is a significant problem. The current BTree implementation, which predates Principia, was designed for very different applications than it's being used for now. We are working on a new BTree implementation that does away with these counts. This should have a huge impact. We are also looking at getting rid of other hot spots in the current ZCatalog (e.g. internal id assignment). > Note that BerkeleyStorage only prevents the file from growing > that much -- it still has to do all that IO (in fact, it has to do ~2-3 > times that much IO, due to the nature of BerkeleyDB. A relational > storage would have similar issues. For ammount of IO done, FileStorage > is about as efficient as you can possibly be -- it's just that it trades > that off against space reclamation). > > Also, with any kind of Berkeley or Relational storage, there is a second > hidden IO and storage penalty: you're storing a btree inside a btree. In > other words, the lower-level DB uses btrees to store your objects, > including interior nodes of the higher-level ZODB btree. Every interior > node of the ZODB Btree needs a leaf node (and supporting interior nodes) > in the DB's btrees. so you get taxed twice, on both I/O and storage > space used. I don't agree with the conclusion of this analysis. The indexes used in the underlying storage are indexing totally different information. They are effectively using indexes to provide persistent memory management. They aren't indexing the application keys. OTOH, I have some sympathy with a related issue. You and Phillip have argued that the ZODB should provide indexes, rather than leaving indexes to application level code to avoid maintaining undo information for indexes. After all, indexes can, in theory, be recomputed from data records after an undo. While I think that this idea has some merit, I don't think it offers enogh benefit to make it a high priority. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! Technical Director (888) 344-4332http://www.python.org Digital Creationshttp://www.digicool.com http://www.zope.org Under US Code Title 47, Sec.227(b)(1)(C), Sec.227(a)(2)(B) This email address may not be added to any commercial mail list with out my permission. Violation of
Re: [Zope] ZODB performance: reads to writes
Toby Dickenson wrote: > > On Sat, 24 Jun 2000 12:43:05 -0400, "Evan Simpson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > >> Will an app as described above still suffer from problems with high > >writes? > > >There are two independent attacks on this problem underway: > > >2. Implement the application-level conflict handling you read about, so that > >Folders and Catalogs can decide that two writes don't conflict after all, > >and merge them into a single update. > > Yes, that will help > > >1. Make Folders and Catalogs store meta-data about their contents in a data > >structure consisting of small persistent objects, like B-Tree nodes. This > >reduces the scope of potential conflict (and the size of the update required > >by a write) to the size of one of these nodes. > > As I understand it, a BTreeFolder alone (ie without application-level > conflict handling) will not help here. Sure they will, because a BTree is the moral equivalent of multiple subfolders. (This assumes that a problem in the current BTree design is fixed, which it will be. ;) > Folders have to ensure that all their contained elements have a > different id. The hot-spot is the only way a Folder can achieve this. But there is only a conflict if two transactions want to pick the same id. Going to (fixed) BTrees doesn't prevent *all* conflicts, but it does prevent most conflicts, which will be good enough for many applications. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! Technical Director (888) 344-4332http://www.python.org Digital Creationshttp://www.digicool.com http://www.zope.org Under US Code Title 47, Sec.227(b)(1)(C), Sec.227(a)(2)(B) This email address may not be added to any commercial mail list with out my permission. Violation of my privacy with advertising or SPAM will result in a suit for a MINIMUM of $500 damages/incident, $1500 for repeats. ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ZODB performance: reads to writes
Jimmie Houchin wrote: > > I know this has been brought up before, but I don't remember if this > question has been asked. > > I've been reading everything I could find on the ZODB. Currently I am > reading 'Introduction to the Zope Object Database' by Jim Fulton at > http://www.zope.org/Members/jim/Info/IPC8/ZODB3/index.html . > > Towards the end of the paper under Status, he starts referring to future > features. Under 'Application-level conflict resolution protocols' he > states this, 'Applications with much higher write to read ratios are > likely to encounter frequent conflict errors which can seriously affect > performance.' > > Is this pretty much the primary reason that it is generally said that > the ZODB isn't as well suited to high write situations? Yes. ZODB uses an optimistic concurrency control protocol, which assumes that conflicts are rare. > Or is there more > to it than that? > > The reason I ask is this. > > My app by it's nature as a community/portal will have plenty of writes > in certain areas. However, due to the structure of the website and the > app most all writes are to unique objects, are appends to an object or > the person editing the object is the owner and has no one to conflict > with. In this case there should be little if any ConflictErrors due to > different users trying to commit changes to the same object. Right, assuming the objects aren't indexed. If they are indexed, then modifications to the indexes could conflict. This is agrevated by the current index design, at Ty pointed out in a later message. > In the case > of the appends, it would be like a bboard and there would be no > conflict. Appends will be done in the order received. Appends are still writes, so they would conflict. It's possible that a conflict resolution protocol, http://www.zope.org/Members/jim/ZODB/ApplicationLevelConflictResolution, could be used to cause appends to be non-conflicting. I plan to implement this protocol on the database side for Zope 2.3. You'd have to implement the application side of it. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! Technical Director (888) 344-4332http://www.python.org Digital Creationshttp://www.digicool.com http://www.zope.org Under US Code Title 47, Sec.227(b)(1)(C), Sec.227(a)(2)(B) This email address may not be added to any commercial mail list with out my permission. Violation of my privacy with advertising or SPAM will result in a suit for a MINIMUM of $500 damages/incident, $1500 for repeats. ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ZODB or not ZODB?
Andrew Kenneth Milton wrote: > > +[ Cary O'Brien ]- > | > | I'll let others speak to 3. I've never had a problem with ZODB, but I've > | never put 750MB in it. > > It'll take a fair amount of abuse :-) > > I've loaded the entire dmoz data into it (once only) just to see what > would happen. Booting was slow, but, once it got up, it ran OK. In addition, if you closed it explicitly, an index would be written. The next "boot" would then be pretty fast. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! Technical Director (888) 344-4332http://www.python.org Digital Creationshttp://www.digicool.com http://www.zope.org Under US Code Title 47, Sec.227(b)(1)(C), Sec.227(a)(2)(B) This email address may not be added to any commercial mail list with out my permission. Violation of my privacy with advertising or SPAM will result in a suit for a MINIMUM of $500 damages/incident, $1500 for repeats. ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ZODB or not ZODB?
Casey Duncan wrote: > > I am implementing a document Library using Zope. It has an exhaustive index > with several thousand topics in an outline residing on a PostgreSQL > database. This works well and I like it. > > My question is where is the best place to store the documents themselves? > They will be static HTML documents ranging from 1-50Kb in size roughly. > There will probably be at least 10,000-15,000 of these documents in the > library once all is said and done. > > In my mind I have three options: > > 1. Store them on the filesystem. > 2. Store them in a PgSQL table as blobs. > 3. Store them as DTML Docs in the ZODB. > > I would like to eventually have full text searching capabilities, so that > makes #1 less attractive (I would likely need my own Python method to do > it). #2 is somewhat of a pain to implement due to limitations in the PgSQL > row size and text searching would be slow. With #3 I could in theory use a > ZCatalog to implement the searching, so that is done for me. In theory, you could use ZCatalog to catalog objects in the file system or in a RDBMS, providing that you can provide paths for them. I don't think anyone's done this yet. There are bound to be bumps from wjoever does it first. :) > Is ZODB up to the task of storing this quantity of objects? What problems > might I run into? Is it a wise idea, could a data.fs file of this size > (~3-400MB) become too easily corrupted? No. Zope.Org varies from 300MB to close to 2GB. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! Technical Director (888) 344-4332http://www.python.org Digital Creationshttp://www.digicool.com http://www.zope.org Under US Code Title 47, Sec.227(b)(1)(C), Sec.227(a)(2)(B) This email address may not be added to any commercial mail list with out my permission. Violation of my privacy with advertising or SPAM will result in a suit for a MINIMUM of $500 damages/incident, $1500 for repeats. ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ZODB or not ZODB?
(snip) > The filesystem, imho. This lets you spread things out over > multiple disks and even (perhaps) multiple systems. Worst case > you've got 50k x 15k = 750M. Big for a ZODB (?), No. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! Technical Director (888) 344-4332http://www.python.org Digital Creationshttp://www.digicool.com http://www.zope.org Under US Code Title 47, Sec.227(b)(1)(C), Sec.227(a)(2)(B) This email address may not be added to any commercial mail list with out my permission. Violation of my privacy with advertising or SPAM will result in a suit for a MINIMUM of $500 damages/incident, $1500 for repeats. ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
Paul Everitt wrote: > > Howdy gang. Below is an announcement that we'll start distributing over > the next 24 hours. I wanted to let you folks see it first. In summary: > Perl Methods. (snip) I think this is a great idea. Here's why. One of the big ideas in Zope is that objects can be written in many languages. Python methods are good for logic, DTML (and soon XSLT) methods are good for presentation, SQL is good for RDBMS queries, and so on. The strength or "goodness" of a language is based on it's suitabilty for a kind of problem *and* it's suitability for a kind of problem solver. There is no one-size-fits-all language, either for problems or problem solvers. Perl methods will be a good thing for Zope because Perl is extremely suitable for a large class of problems and problem solvers. The fact that it overlaps with Python does not really make it less a good thing, any more than the overlap of DTML and XSLT makes XSLT less than a good thing for Zope. (I used Perl *alot* several years ago before I used Python. Perl helped me solve alot of hard problems with relative ease and I am indepted to Larry Wall and others who made it possible. I happen to prefer Python personally, but I respect Perl and the people who use and maintain it.) Obviously, extensive perl libraries are a huge opportunity for Zope. In the future, I'd be happy (and expect) to see other languages supported, XQL, TCL, PHP, lisp, Fortran, . :) Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! Technical Director (888) 344-4332http://www.python.org Digital Creationshttp://www.digicool.com http://www.zope.org Under US Code Title 47, Sec.227(b)(1)(C), Sec.227(a)(2)(B) This email address may not be added to any commercial mail list with out my permission. Violation of my privacy with advertising or SPAM will result in a suit for a MINIMUM of $500 damages/incident, $1500 for repeats. ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
