[Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
Howdy gang. Below is an announcement that we'll start distributing over the next 24 hours. I wanted to let you folks see it first. In summary: Perl Methods. This isn't a press release, which we'll be doing in the run-up to the O'Reilly Open Source conference in July, when the code is closer to being available. --- Digital Creations, creators of the Open Source Zope application server, announced today that it is teaming with ActiveState, a leading provider of Internet programming software, to make Perl a scripting language for Zope. Perl is the predominant scripting language for Internet applications and is a key success story for the Open Source software movement. Zope is written in Python, the fastest growing Open Source scripting language. "It is clear that the strength of Zope realizes the future architecture of the Web," says Paul Everitt, CEO of Digital Creations. "This dynamic architecture, and the people working with it, are a fantastic match for scripting languages. Thus it is natural that Digital Creations would team with ActiveState to make Perl a scripting language for Zope." "Zope is a powerful content management system that we use internally," said Dick Hardt, CEO of ActiveState. "By adding the power of Perl to Zope, we will be able to leverage all the existing Perl technology that we have as well as bring the worlds of Python and Perl closer together." Under this agreement, ActiveState will get Python and Perl to run in the same application. More specifically, Perl programmers can code critical pieces of business logic in Zope solutions. "The Perl for Zope project brings the worlds of the two most important open source programming languages together," stated Gisle Aas, Senior Developer, ActiveState. "Python programmers will be able to directly take advantage of the large collection of reusable Perl program modules, like DBI, found on CPAN. Perl programmers will be able to program and customize the Zope web application server using their favorite language." The initial developer release of Perl For Zope will coincide with the O'Reilly Open Source Software Convention in July 2000. For more information on the project, please visit the Perl For Zope project page at http://www.zope.org/Wikis/zope-perl/. Contact Information For Digital Creations, contact Paul Everitt, [EMAIL PROTECTED], 540.371.6909x102. For ActiveState, contact Lori Pike, [EMAIL PROTECTED], 604.713.8433. --Paul Paul Everitt Digital Creations [EMAIL PROTECTED] 540.371.6909 - The Open Source Zope application server http://www.zope.org/ - ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
Stunned. Totally and utterly stunned. I would have thought there would be Java floating around in Zope's bowl before Perl! Perl? Jeeze... what a great but very scary thing. I trust that DC will do it right. J At 7:32 PM -0400 5/24/2000, Paul Everitt wrote: >Howdy gang. Below is an announcement that we'll start distributing over >the next 24 hours. I wanted to let you folks see it first. In summary: >Perl Methods. > >This isn't a press release, which we'll be doing in the run-up to the >O'Reilly Open Source conference in July, when the code is closer to >being available. > >--- > >Digital Creations, creators of the Open Source Zope application server, >announced today that it is teaming with ActiveState, a leading provider >of >Internet programming software, to make Perl a scripting language for >Zope. > >Perl is the predominant scripting language for Internet applications and >is >a key success story for the Open Source software movement. Zope is >written >in Python, the fastest growing Open Source scripting language. > >"It is clear that the strength of Zope realizes the future architecture >of >the Web," says Paul Everitt, CEO of Digital Creations. "This dynamic >architecture, and the people working with it, are a fantastic match for >scripting languages. Thus it is natural that Digital Creations would >team >with ActiveState to make Perl a scripting language for Zope." > >"Zope is a powerful content management system that we use internally," >said >Dick Hardt, CEO of ActiveState. "By adding the power of Perl to Zope, we >will be able to leverage all the existing Perl technology that we have >as >well as bring the worlds of Python and Perl closer together." > >Under this agreement, ActiveState will get Python and Perl to run in the >same application. More specifically, Perl programmers can code critical >pieces of business logic in Zope solutions. > >"The Perl for Zope project brings the worlds of the two most important >open >source programming languages together," stated Gisle Aas, Senior >Developer, >ActiveState. "Python programmers will be able to directly take advantage >of >the large collection of reusable Perl program modules, like DBI, found >on >CPAN. Perl programmers will be able to program and customize the Zope >web >application server using their favorite language." > >The initial developer release of Perl For Zope will coincide with >the O'Reilly Open Source Software Convention in July 2000. For more >information on the project, please visit the Perl For Zope project >page at http://www.zope.org/Wikis/zope-perl/. > >Contact Information > > For Digital Creations, contact Paul Everitt, [EMAIL PROTECTED], > 540.371.6909x102. For ActiveState, contact Lori Pike, > [EMAIL PROTECTED], 604.713.8433. > >--Paul > >Paul Everitt Digital Creations >[EMAIL PROTECTED] 540.371.6909 >- >The Open Source Zope application server >http://www.zope.org/ >- > > >___ >Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] >http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope >** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** >(Related lists - > http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce > http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
"J. Atwood" wrote: > > Stunned. Totally and utterly stunned. I would have thought there > would be Java floating around in Zope's bowl before Perl! Perl? > Jeeze... what a great but very scary thing. I trust that DC will do > it right. Let's take up bets. In an egg, there is white and yellow, when these are mixed, what does remain ? Just yellow, doesn't it ? I guess that's the price of fame. -- Denis Frère P3B: Club Free-Pytho-Linuxien Carolorégien http://www.p3b.org Aragne : Internet - Réseaux - Formations http://www.aragne.com ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
+[ Denis [Fr_re] ]- [Charset iso-8859-1 unsupported, filtering to ASCII...] | "J. Atwood" wrote: | > | > Stunned. Totally and utterly stunned. I would have thought there | > would be Java floating around in Zope's bowl before Perl! Perl? | > Jeeze... what a great but very scary thing. I trust that DC will do | > it right. | | Let's take up bets. | | In an egg, there is white and yellow, | when these are mixed, what does remain ? | Just yellow, doesn't it ? It doesn't matter how much you shake an egg. It's still got a yolk and a white. You have to smash open the egg and break the yolk before you get just 'yellow' -- Totally Holistic Enterprises Internet| P:+61 7 3870 0066 | Andrew Milton The Internet (Aust) Pty Ltd | F:+61 7 3870 4477 | ACN: 082 081 472 | M:+61 416 022 411 | Carpe Daemon PO Box 837 Indooroopilly QLD 4068|[EMAIL PROTECTED]| ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
Paul Everitt wrote: > > Howdy gang. Below is an announcement that we'll start distributing over > the next 24 hours. I wanted to let you folks see it first. In summary: > Perl Methods. Why is this a good thing? ;-) Chris ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
"J. Atwood" wrote: > > Stunned. Totally and utterly stunned. I would have thought there I'm stunned that you're stunned. :^) Seriously, Python and Perl are two scripting languages, similar in scope, both successful. The Java market has about a thousand choices for app servers, whereas the Perl market's need is largely unmet. > would be Java floating around in Zope's bowl before Perl! Perl? > Jeeze... what a great but very scary thing. I trust that DC will do > it right. Yes we will. As Jim is fond of saying, we allow methods in a lot of languages already: Python, HTML (DTML), SQL, and soon XSLT. The latter is *definately* one that will make Perl look readable. :^) Don't worry, this is a Good Thing. Scripting languages should work together and present a strong alternative. --Paul ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
+[ Chris Withers ]- | Paul Everitt wrote: | > | > Howdy gang. Below is an announcement that we'll start distributing over | > the next 24 hours. I wanted to let you folks see it first. In summary: | > Perl Methods. | | Why is this a good thing? ;-) It may increase the user-base of Zope and an increase in the number of Python fans. :-) -- Totally Holistic Enterprises Internet| P:+61 7 3870 0066 | Andrew Milton The Internet (Aust) Pty Ltd | F:+61 7 3870 4477 | ACN: 082 081 472 | M:+61 416 022 411 | Carpe Daemon PO Box 837 Indooroopilly QLD 4068|[EMAIL PROTECTED]| ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
Denis Frère wrote: > > "J. Atwood" wrote: > > > > Stunned. Totally and utterly stunned. I would have thought there > > would be Java floating around in Zope's bowl before Perl! Perl? > > Jeeze... what a great but very scary thing. I trust that DC will do > > it right. > > Let's take up bets. > > In an egg, there is white and yellow, > when these are mixed, what does remain ? > Just yellow, doesn't it ? > > I guess that's the price of fame. That's quite a strained metaphor. I'll be pretty unequivocal. Anyone that thinks we are lessening our commitment to Python (a) hasn't read the FAQ before reacting and (b) doesn't know us very well. On the other hand, we'll likely do even more things like this over the year: open up to COM, CORBA, etc. as method facilities. --Paul ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
I guess that many of us - like me - have come to Zope and Python after some experience with Perl. I'm really glad I learned Python after programming in Perl, C, R, Lisp, Pascal, Forth, Basic and Assembler. Python nowadays clearly is my favorite and Perl is located on the other end together with assembler. Python helps me writing structured programms and I am able to read my code after a while even if I didn't always take enough time to add comments. On the other hand I still have my TPJ subscription and I don't mind if it is _possible_ to use external perl functions as long as I don't _have_to_. A really horrible vision for me would be if Zope itself or parts of it were rewritten in Perl... arghh! --Ragnar ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
> Paul Everitt wrote: > > > > Howdy gang. Below is an announcement that we'll start distributing over > > the next 24 hours. I wanted to let you folks see it first. In summary: > > Perl Methods. > > Why is this a good thing? ;-) Aww come on Chris, think positively. :-) I happen to like Perl, and still use it a lot outside of worktime, so I'm pleased about this - whether or not people like the language, it does have a lot of existing support and developers who might find this a useful way to get involved in exploring the wonderful world of Zope. So this is A Good Thing (TM) The important thing is that the support is added in a Zope-like fashion... or else it'll end up being A Bad Thing (TM) John -- John Chandler / Software Developer / New Information Paradigms Ltd [ Linux in the office, AmigaOS in the home, PalmOS in the pocket ] The opinions above aren't those of my company... ...but then, they aren't really mine either. ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
Agreed... We can use COM, CORBA, SOAP, etc. ~BDW At 05:19 25/05/00 -0400, Paul Everitt wrote: >That's quite a strained metaphor. I'll be pretty unequivocal. Anyone >that thinks we are lessening our commitment to Python (a) hasn't read >the FAQ before reacting and (b) doesn't know us very well. > >On the other hand, we'll likely do even more things like this over the >year: open up to COM, CORBA, etc. as method facilities. > >--Paul ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
Budi Wiyono wrote: > > Agreed... > We can use COM, CORBA, SOAP, etc. > >On the other hand, we'll likely do even more things like this over the > >year: open up to COM, CORBA, etc. as method facilities. > > > >--Paul Now ya talkin :-) bring it on... Chris ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
Gang (and Paul), I guess my major concern (and mosts) would be that one of the reasons we like Python/Zope/OO is that it is not Perl and does not have all that quirky structure and if you introduce Perl into Zope it would be like throwing a pair of red socks in your white wash, we all go pink. After some thought last night (no sleep loss) I could see it working in the way of a product or a Perl Method and not disturbing the DTML code (please don't do this). The end result though is that if we can get the Perl community to start using/developing on Zope it is a big win. My inner secret hope is that once all the Perl Jocks see some nice Python/DTML code they will never want to go back. :) Again, congrats DC... this boat is big enough for everyone. Lets talk TCL! J At 5:16 AM -0400 5/25/2000, Paul Everitt wrote: >"J. Atwood" wrote: >> >> Stunned. Totally and utterly stunned. I would have thought there > >I'm stunned that you're stunned. :^) > >Seriously, Python and Perl are two scripting languages, similar in >scope, both successful. The Java market has about a thousand choices >for app servers, whereas the Perl market's need is largely unmet. > >> would be Java floating around in Zope's bowl before Perl! Perl? >> Jeeze... what a great but very scary thing. I trust that DC will do >> it right. > >Yes we will. As Jim is fond of saying, we allow methods in a lot of >languages already: Python, HTML (DTML), SQL, and soon XSLT. The latter >is *definately* one that will make Perl look readable. :^) > >Don't worry, this is a Good Thing. Scripting languages should work >together and present a strong alternative. > >--Paul ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
> > Agreed... > > We can use COM, CORBA, SOAP, etc. > > > >On the other hand, we'll likely do even more things like this over the > > >year: open up to COM, CORBA, etc. as method facilities. > > > > > >--Paul > > Now ya talkin :-) > > bring it on... Damn, you beat me to it :-) This is cool, and gives me a good excuse to delve into CORBA at last. Excellent news. John -- John Chandler / Software Developer / New Information Paradigms Ltd [ Linux in the office, AmigaOS in the home, PalmOS in the pocket ] The opinions above aren't those of my company... ...but then, they aren't really mine either. ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
"J. Atwood" wrote: > I guess my major concern (and mosts) would be that one of the reasons > we like Python/Zope/OO is that it is not Perl and does not have all > that quirky structure and if you introduce Perl into Zope it would be > like throwing a pair of red socks in your white wash, we all go pink. I like that metaphor :-) > After some thought last night (no sleep loss) I could see it working > in the way of a product or a Perl Method and not disturbing the DTML > code (please don't do this). Yup. In the same way we have Python Methods, External Methods & DTML Methods. But no Perl 'Products' and certainly no perl in other Zope code. That would be bad. But from reading the FAQ that seems to be what is happening. In which case, 'cool :-)' > The end result though is that if we can get the Perl community to > start using/developing on Zope it is a big win. My inner secret hope > is that once all the Perl Jocks see some nice Python/DTML code they > will never want to go back. :) Well, you can lead a horse to water but perl horses might just sit there chewing leaves to get their water nonetheless :( cheers, Chris ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
The real question is: Can we get all those Perl people to help with our documentation? :) There are times when more does not equal better, but certainly when it comes to an Open Source Software Project, more does equal better. More eyes, more products, more exposure, more corporate penetration, more sites, more documentation, more FAQs. More more more! I, for one, will welcome my Perl brothers (actually sent the ANN post to two of them five seconds after reading it) and hope that together we can bring Zope to everyone. J At 11:11 AM +0100 5/25/2000, Chris Withers wrote: >Budi Wiyono wrote: >> >> Agreed... >> We can use COM, CORBA, SOAP, etc. > >> >On the other hand, we'll likely do even more things like this over the >> >year: open up to COM, CORBA, etc. as method facilities. >> > >> >--Paul > >Now ya talkin :-) > >bring it on... > >Chris > >___ >Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] >http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope >** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** >(Related lists - > http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce > http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
>Seriously, Python and Perl are two scripting languages, similar in >scope, both successful. The Java market has about a thousand choices >for app servers, whereas the Perl market's need is largely unmet. > >> would be Java floating around in Zope's bowl before Perl! Perl? >> Jeeze... what a great but very scary thing. I trust that DC will do >> it right. > >Yes we will. As Jim is fond of saying, we allow methods in a lot of >languages already: Python, HTML (DTML), SQL, and soon XSLT. The latter >is *definately* one that will make Perl look readable. :^) > >Don't worry, this is a Good Thing. Scripting languages should work >together and present a strong alternative. > Agreed, but the need for a Zope best practices guidelines (when to use what, and when _not_ to use it) is growing with every new language/method ;-) Rik ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
J. Atwood wrote: > Stunned. Totally and utterly stunned. I would have thought there > would be Java floating around in Zope's bowl before Perl! Perl? > Jeeze... what a great but very scary thing. I trust that DC will do > it right. I'd agree with the scary part. Scaaary. I hope DC will do it right indeed, and that I can't *see* the Perl if I don't want to see it. DTML is bad enough already! :) Regards, Martijn ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
On Thu, 25 May 2000, Martijn Faassen wrote: > J. Atwood wrote: > > Stunned. Totally and utterly stunned. I would have thought there > > would be Java floating around in Zope's bowl before Perl! Perl? > > Jeeze... what a great but very scary thing. I trust that DC will do > > it right. > > I'd agree with the scary part. Scaaary. I hope DC will do it right indeed, > and that I can't *see* the Perl if I don't want to see it. DTML is bad > enough already! :) > > Regards, > > Martijn "Me too" * 1000 Oleg. Oleg Broytmann http://skyscraper.fortunecity.com/unix/797/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN. ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
Isn't this covered in the FAQ? Honestly I'm sort of surprised that there is such a strong reaction to this. When you talk about Perl for Zope, you're talking about three things: Perl through the web methods Perl external methods Glue code to make these things work properly I presume you're worried about #3. Actually, I shouldn't presume that, I don't know what you're actually worried about. Umm... what *are* you all worried about? > On Thu, 25 May 2000, Martijn Faassen wrote: > > J. Atwood wrote: > > > Stunned. Totally and utterly stunned. I would have thought there > > > would be Java floating around in Zope's bowl before Perl! Perl? > > > Jeeze... what a great but very scary thing. I trust that DC will do > > > it right. > > > > I'd agree with the scary part. Scaaary. I hope DC will do it right indeed, > > and that I can't *see* the Perl if I don't want to see it. DTML is bad > > enough already! :) > > > > Regards, > > > > Martijn > >"Me too" * 1000 > ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
RE: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
> > Stunned. Totally and utterly stunned. I would have thought there > > would be Java floating around in Zope's bowl before Perl! Perl? > > Jeeze... what a great but very scary thing. I trust that DC will do > > it right. > > I'd agree with the scary part. Scaaary. I hope DC will do it > right indeed, > and that I can't *see* the Perl if I don't want to see it. Our goal is to extend Zope's appeal and allow people _more_ flexibility to work in a language that is comfortable to them. You certainly wouldn't have to worry about Perl unless you choose to. This is a Good Thing - and nothing to be scared about, I promise :^) Brian Lloyd[EMAIL PROTECTED] Software Engineer 540.371.6909 Digital Creations http://www.digicool.com ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
Dear Chris... On Thu, 25 May 2000, Chris McDonough wrote: > Honestly I'm sort of surprised that there is such a strong reaction to A year ago I resigned from a web development company because they forced me to write Perl. I switched to Python and was and is very happy about it. I don't want to see a line of Perl. And after all DC annonced Perl Methods! How do you think I can feel about it? I resigned (i.e. - spent my money, nervous, my time to switch to another company) - and what I found now? Perl again. Well, I can see good points here. Perl methods probably will attract more users. But I can see bad points, too. What if my perl developer resigned? Should I pick up his code? I don't want, I want Python. Should I spent a lot of time manually converting his code to Python Method and debug it? "There is always too many ways to do it" - it is Perl motto, not Python. I am pretty sure Zope shouldn't has too many scripting languages. Many protocols - yes, it is very good. But many languages? No, that's bad. Oleg.(All opinions are mine and not of my employer) Oleg Broytmann Foundation for Effective Policies [EMAIL PROTECTED] Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN. ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
Chris McDonough wrote: > I presume you're worried about #3. Actually, I shouldn't presume that, > I don't know what you're actually worried about. Umm... what *are* you > all worried about? In short, the programming Utopia that is Zope and Python getting fubar'ed... But, having read the FAQ and seen the responses, it looks like this _isn't_ going to happen, unless everyone at DC is a politician: promising one thing and doing another ;-) cheers, Chris PS: Will all the ActiveState stuff, and the perl stuff in general, be open source? ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
On Thu, 25 May 2000, Oleg Broytmann wrote: > it? "There is always too many ways to do it" - it is Perl motto, not > Python. I am pretty sure Zope shouldn't has too many scripting languages. > Many protocols - yes, it is very good. But many languages? No, that's bad. Agreed 100% ! Jerome ALET - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://cortex.unice.fr/~jerome Faculte de Medecine de Nice - http://noe.unice.fr - Tel: 04 93 37 76 30 28 Avenue de Valombrose - 06107 NICE Cedex 2 - FRANCE ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
Oleg Broytmann wrote: >A year ago I resigned from a web development company because they forced > me to write Perl. I switched to Python and was and is very happy about it. > I don't want to see a line of Perl. And after all DC annonced Perl Methods! >How do you think I can feel about it? I resigned (i.e. - spent my money, > nervous, my time to switch to another company) - and what I found now? Perl > again. It's just a word. You don't need to use it. You could even set up a filter on your mail client to get rid of it entirely. >Well, I can see good points here. Perl methods probably will attract > more users. But I can see bad points, too. What if my perl developer > resigned? Should I pick up his code? I don't want, I want Python. Should I > spent a lot of time manually converting his code to Python Method and debug > it? "There is always too many ways to do it" - it is Perl motto, not > Python. I am pretty sure Zope shouldn't has too many scripting languages. > Many protocols - yes, it is very good. But many languages? No, that's bad. Don't hire a Perl developer. Don't use Perl in Zope. Zope has DTML and Python, both of which will stay. You will have the option of using Perl and XSLT methods pretty soon. If you don't need them or don't want them, don't use them. There are lots of people for whom this will be a natural entry point in to Zope. You happen not to be one of them. Sheesh, it's like we'd recommended Microsoft in here or something. :-) ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
Chris McDonough wrote: > > Isn't this covered in the FAQ? > > Honestly I'm sort of surprised that there is such a strong reaction to > this. When you talk about Perl for Zope, you're talking about three > things: > > Perl through the web methods > Perl external methods > Glue code to make these things work properly > > I presume you're worried about #3. Actually, I shouldn't presume that, > I don't know what you're actually worried about. Umm... what *are* you > all worried about? The only badness I can see coming out of this is this: At present, I can consult at a client who is running Zope, and I'm reasonably confident that I can read and understand all their code. When people can write their site half in Perl, I could well be stuck... unless I learn Perl :-) -- Steve Alexander Software Engineer Cat-Box limited ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
On Thu, 25 May 2000, Chris McDonough wrote: > Zope has DTML and Python, both of which will stay. Yes, this is my point, too. I think DTML became a little to much. I'd like to see DTML much less powerful, with all programming going to Python Products and Python Methods. > Sheesh, it's like we'd recommended Microsoft in here or something. :-) Yes, for a long time I see Perl very like Windoze - Broken by Design :( Bloated, hairy, and designed to force programmers to make bugs. Oleg.(All opinions are mine and not of my employer) Oleg Broytmann Foundation for Effective Policies [EMAIL PROTECTED] Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN. ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
Chris McDonough writes: > Honestly I'm sort of surprised that there is such a strong reaction to > this. When you talk about Perl for Zope, you're talking about three > things: > > Perl through the web methods > Perl external methods > Glue code to make these things work properly > > I presume you're worried about #3. Actually, I shouldn't presume that, > I don't know what you're actually worried about. Umm... what *are* you > all worried about? Personally, two things, one of which fortunately isn't on your list and the other is an (ick) management problem: 1. Perl Products - I'm really glad these aren't included in your plans bcause someone would then come out with something we really needed, didn't have time to write and would then have to maintain in *Perl*. 2. Today I have to look at hiring web developers (expect to see the first job announcement in early June :-)) who probably don't know Zope and Python and training them in these tools. With Perl methods possible, I forsee some interesting debates... (Yes, I was fluent in Perl at one time (1.0-3.x mainly). I'm very out of practice now and have no desire to get back in practice :-(.) Dan Pierson ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
>Well, I can see good points here. Perl methods probably will attract > more users. But I can see bad points, too. What if my perl developer > resigned? Should I pick up his code? I don't want, I want Python. Should I I'm personally looking forward to being able to use Perl with Zope, so long as the Perl support is implemented in a Zope-consistent fashion. But I'm always used to being the odd one out ;-) With situations like mixed-language support I'm probably going to end up at NIP having to continue to use just Python for the benefit of others, though there are enough Perl developers in the office to take my place should I disappear. In fact, it might encourage some of the other developers to take a look at Zope more, I suspect Python is putting them off odd as that may sound. Erm, but anyway the point is it's not compulsory to use Perl now that the option will be available, and in most cases it would be best to ensure developers use the same language. I use Python here in the office because it's what everyone else uses, it's a capable language and it provides consistency with what everyone else is doing. I doubt I'll be able to deviate and use Perl without extremely good reasons, personal preference won't be accepted by the others I can safely say. Eh Chris? ;-) John -- John Chandler / Software Developer / New Information Paradigms Ltd [ Linux in the office, AmigaOS in the home, PalmOS in the pocket ] The opinions above aren't those of my company... ...but then, they aren't really mine either. ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
RE: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
> The only badness I can see coming out of this is this: > > At present, I can consult at a client who is running Zope, and I'm > reasonably confident that I can read and understand all their code. > > When people can write their site half in Perl, I could well > be stuck... > unless I learn Perl :-) I can see this being a genuine concern. That's the first I've seen (it's a good one). ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
Chris McDonough wrote: > > > The only badness I can see coming out of this is this: > > > > At present, I can consult at a client who is running Zope, and I'm > > reasonably confident that I can read and understand all their code. > > > > When people can write their site half in Perl, I could well > > be stuck... > > unless I learn Perl :-) > > I can see this being a genuine concern. That's the first I've seen > (it's a good one). I think it is inevitable though. At one time (a number of years ago), I knew the API and most of the internals of every standard Java package. Now, with the vast standard-edition libraries, and also the stanard add-on classes for 3D, CORBA, 2D, and so forth, I have to rely on reading and understanding published API documentation just-in-time :-/ The only way around it is coding standards and project standards. Whilst DC can offer all sorts of different scripting language options for Zope, I can ensure that projects I manage use only a "safe" and manageable subset of those options. It could be that projects that use an unregulated mixture of languages have code maintainance problems down the line. Projects of this kind that get into difficulty may find a shortage of able rescuers :-) -- Steve Alexander Software Engineer Cat-Box limited ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
- Original Message - From: "Chris McDonough" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "Zope Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2000 10:15 AM Subject: Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope > Zope has DTML and Python, both of which will stay. You will have the > option of using Perl and XSLT methods pretty soon. If you don't need > them or don't want them, don't use them. There are lots of people for > whom this will be a natural entry point in to Zope. You happen not to > be one of them. I was a little puzzled when I first read the announcement, but after reading the FAQ I think it sounds like a great idea! People who are comfortable with perl will be able to create complete through the web Products in perl/dtml. People who are big fans of python aren't forced to use those Products, but I think you can bring a lot of people into the Zope fold with this. > Sheesh, it's like we'd recommended Microsoft in here or something. :-) Can Active Server Pages and VBScript be far behind? :) Kevin ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
Chris McDonough wrote: > > When people can write their site half in Perl, I could well > > be stuck... > > unless I learn Perl :-) > > I can see this being a genuine concern. That's the first I've seen > (it's a good one). Further from this, I think diversifying the language base to Python/Perl/XSLT/etc is bad. It means that for someone to be 'proficient in Zope' form a marketing or job hunting point of view, they also have to know Perl, XSLT, etc rather than just Python and DTML. It defocuses Zope from what it is. I can read and write Perl if I have to, but I don't want to... it's bad enough just trying o keep up with the stuff being done in Python, adding Perl to that will make it nigh on impossible... Chris ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
At 10:15 am -0400 25/5/00, Chris McDonough wrote: >Zope has DTML and Python, both of which will stay. You will have the >option of using Perl and XSLT methods pretty soon. Ooo Ooo - XSLT? Presumably I should read your sentence as "You will have the option of using Perl as well as XSLT methods pretty soon" and not "Thou wilt need Perl to get XSLT methods" ? :) > If you don't need >them or don't want them, don't use them. There are lots of people for >whom this will be a natural entry point in to Zope. You happen not to >be one of them. This is a good point Chris - it's got to be likely that more Perly people will migrate to Python rather than vice-versa isn't it? I mean if you already know Python, you're hardly likely to start doing your work in Perl are you? :) >Sheesh, it's like we'd recommended Microsoft in here or something. :-) snigger... Tone. -- Dr Tony McDonald, FMCC, Networked Learning Environments Project http://nle.ncl.ac.uk/ The Medical School, Newcastle University Tel: +44 191 222 5888 Fingerprint: 3450 876D FA41 B926 D3DD F8C3 F2D0 C3B9 8B38 18A2 ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
On Thu, 25 May 2000, Kevin Dangoor wrote: > People who are big fans of python aren't forced to use those Products, but I Very soon we'll be forced, 'cause most Products will be in Perl (yse, I've read the FAQ and saw "no Perl Products"; it's temporary, mark you). Oleg.(All opinions are mine and not of my employer) Oleg Broytmann Foundation for Effective Policies [EMAIL PROTECTED] Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN. ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
> >Well, I can see good points here. Perl methods probably will attract >more users. But I can see bad points, too. What if my perl developer >resigned? Should I pick up his code? I don't want, I want Python. Should I >spent a lot of time manually converting his code to Python Method and debug >it? "There is always too many ways to do it" - it is Perl motto, not >Python. I am pretty sure Zope shouldn't has too many scripting languages. >Many protocols - yes, it is very good. But many languages? No, that's bad. I was thinking about the announcement for a while as well. I do not like Perl. I think your point is very good though. Right now I am using Zope for a client and everything is fine. If Zope supports Perl, they may hire Perl people. And you are right, what if they quit? It may happen that the market to find qualified Zope programmers becomes even tighter, since Zope programmers are now required to speak both, Python and Perl well. From a technological and development point of view, I think implementing Perl is great and very excitingimagining making this "scribble" language object-oriented. But at the end I like my good looking object-oriented Python code. :) Regards, Stephan -- Stephan Richter CBU - Physics and Chemistry Web2k - Web Design/Development & Technical Project Management ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
RE: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
This is pretty silly. >Very soon we'll be forced, 'cause most Products will be in > Perl (yse, > I've read the FAQ and saw "no Perl Products"; it's temporary, > mark you). ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
> Sheesh, it's like we'd recommended Microsoft in here or something. :-) SOAP? (just kidding). The head of my company here has a theory that all "techies" have a religion when it comes to tools/languages/application environments. To a certain degree he is right. I believe in Python. I use it, love it and live by it. I have faith that if I write something in Python I can come back to it in a day or a year and understand it in minutes. I am also a believer in Zope, first for its power but second because it uses Python. Zope will benefit from the Perl community just as it has with XML. I agree with some of the comments that I don't want to see Perl code floating around in my management screen but it would also be very powerful to have modules/products written in Perl and dealt with in DTML. There are tens of thousands of Perl programmers out there, just think of all the cool things they write (especially if they found a better tool). JMA ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
Kevin Dangoor wrote: > perl will be able to create complete through the web Products in perl/dtml. No!!! Keep perl and DTML seperate. If people want to play in Perl fine, but keep it seperate from everything else. Perl-only methods and external methods, no DTML mangling and no perl expression in dtml tags. Newbies get confused enough with python... please... Chris ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
- Original Message -
From: Oleg Broytmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> On Thu, 25 May 2000, Chris McDonough wrote:
> > Honestly I'm sort of surprised that there is such a strong reaction to
>
>Well, I can see good points here. Perl methods probably will attract
> more users. But I can see bad points, too. What if my perl developer
> resigned? Should I pick up his code? I don't want, I want Python. Should I
> spent a lot of time manually converting his code to Python Method and debug
> it? "There is always too many ways to do it" - it is Perl motto, not
> Python. I am pretty sure Zope shouldn't has too many scripting languages.
> Many protocols - yes, it is very good. But many languages? No, that's bad.
I'm agree with Oleg!
To write in Perl could be nicely or interesting (sometimes),
but to modify some code written in Perl is ... suicide!
I have learn Perl one year ago but for large projects
(I presume) is not a good choice.
When someone ask me to start something in Perl, I give him the next code :
(may be you know it)
$_="The perl journal\r"; $|=1;
$e='s/([\x41-\x5a])(\W*)([\x61-\x7a])/\l\1\2\u\3/g';
print while select('','','',.1),eval $e || $e=~tr [4567lu] [6745ul];
The problem with this code is that it works :)
Have fun!
Marcel
___
Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope
** No cross posts or HTML encoding! **
(Related lists -
http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce
http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
> Kevin Dangoor wrote: > > perl will be able to create complete through the web Products in perl/dtml. > > No!!! > > Keep perl and DTML seperate. If people want to play in Perl fine, but > keep it seperate from everything else. Perl-only methods and external > methods, no DTML mangling and no perl expression in dtml tags. Newbies > get confused enough with python... Even as a Perl fan, I agree and don't see the sense in placing Perl-style expressions in DTML, or any other non-Python language for that matter - but I don't detect this is going to happen anyway. John -- John Chandler / Software Developer / New Information Paradigms Ltd [ Linux in the office, AmigaOS in the home, PalmOS in the pocket ] The opinions above aren't those of my company... ...but then, they aren't really mine either. ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
Chris McDonough wrote: > > This is pretty silly. > > >Very soon we'll be forced, 'cause most Products will be in > > Perl (yse, > > I've read the FAQ and saw "no Perl Products"; it's temporary, > > mark you). I have to say, I'm not convinced it is. Providing Perl methods is like drilling a hole through a dyke wall. By getting loads of perl programmers on board, you suddenly have a large userbase wishing they can do more in perl, so you implement perl products. (yes, I've read the FAQ too, hence my politicians comment...) This userbase gets into hacking the core and bring perl into there. Suddenly Zope is a total mess of perl and python and the whole community shifts onto something cleaner leaving DC high and dry and spoiling a perfect solution... pessimistic, I know, but pessimism if often appropriate in computing... Chris ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
+[ Chris McDonough ]- | This is pretty silly. I agree, it got silly about 8 hours ago. I don't think I've ever seen paranoia and religious fervour mixed in quite the same way before. Anyone would think that people think that python is inadequate as a language. If you don't want people working for you to write perl, tell them they can't write it in perl. I find the whole 'perl will pollute us' mentality quite disappointing, it's worse than a bunch of school girls arguing over which all boy band is best. -- Totally Holistic Enterprises Internet| P:+61 7 3870 0066 | Andrew Milton The Internet (Aust) Pty Ltd | F:+61 7 3870 4477 | ACN: 082 081 472 | M:+61 416 022 411 | Carpe Daemon PO Box 837 Indooroopilly QLD 4068|[EMAIL PROTECTED]| ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
+[ Chris Withers ]- | | This userbase gets into hacking the core and bring perl into there. | | Suddenly Zope is a total mess of perl and python and the whole community | shifts onto something cleaner leaving DC high and dry and spoiling a | perfect solution... So retaliate by making PHP into a python project. d8) If the phantom 'perl userbase' could 'hack into the core' and put perl in there, why would they wait for perl methods to become available first? They would have implemented PerlZope long before this. -- Totally Holistic Enterprises Internet| P:+61 7 3870 0066 | Andrew Milton The Internet (Aust) Pty Ltd | F:+61 7 3870 4477 | ACN: 082 081 472 | M:+61 416 022 411 | Carpe Daemon PO Box 837 Indooroopilly QLD 4068|[EMAIL PROTECTED]| ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
Andrew Kenneth Milton wrote: > I find the whole 'perl will pollute us' mentality quite disappointing, > it's worse than a bunch of school girls arguing over which all boy > band is best. You never seen blokes arguing over which girl band is best ;-) I agree though since it's a moot point anyway. It's going to happen now and we just have to live with it :S Chris ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
RE: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
This will be my last mail on this.. strong opinions ahead, and they aren't representative of anybody but me. > I have to say, I'm not convinced it is. Providing Perl methods is like > drilling a hole through a dyke wall. By getting loads of perl > programmers on board, you suddenly have a large userbase wishing they > can do more in perl, so you implement perl products. (yes, > I've read the > FAQ too, hence my politicians comment...) I doubt DC would do it. The Perl community might. But that's open source. If someone wants it bad enough, it'll be done. That doesn't mean you should use it. > This userbase gets into hacking the core and bring perl into there. DC still controls CVS. I doubt this would happen, there'd be no reason for it. > Suddenly Zope is a total mess of perl and python and the > whole community > shifts onto something cleaner leaving DC high and dry and spoiling a > perfect solution... It's far from perfect now. It's quite nice. But perfect, no. There are *lots* of smart Perl people, and personally I look forward to seeing some of them join the community. It'll give more exposure to Zope. Maybe it'll give more exposure to Python, even. To me, the "dont even talk to me about Perl" attitude smacks of illogic and unearned elitism. It's silly and immature. ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
On Thu, 25 May 2000, Chris Withers wrote: > I agree though since it's a moot point anyway. It's going to happen now That's why I stopped to argue. Let's wait and see. There are already so many Bad Things in computer industry this one wouldn't make things much worse. > and we just have to live with it :S ...have to die with it... :( Oleg.(All opinions are mine and not of my employer) Oleg Broytmann Foundation for Effective Policies [EMAIL PROTECTED] Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN. ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
> > I find the whole 'perl will pollute us' mentality quite disappointing, > > it's worse than a bunch of school girls arguing over which all boy > > band is best. > > You never seen blokes arguing over which girl band is best ;-) It's a coin flip between Kittie and L7 IMHO, anyone who disagrees can meet me outside to discuss it ;-) > I agree though since it's a moot point anyway. It's going to happen now > and we just have to live with it :S Yep, seriously I think it's only a problem if people make it a problem. At the moment the "evil" threat of Perl is on the horizon, it's not here so there's plenty of time to prepare. You don't have to go the Perl route, but if you're worried that is going to be a negative influence, which to me suggests doubt about Zope and Python IMHO, then educate people as to how to use YNPLOC in a way that matches the Zope philosophy. It's not worth arguing about, we're all united by Zope aren't we? John -- John Chandler / Software Developer / New Information Paradigms Ltd [ Linux in the office, AmigaOS in the home, PalmOS in the pocket ] The opinions above aren't those of my company... ...but then, they aren't really mine either. ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
Chris Withers wrote: > I have to say, I'm not convinced it is. Providing Perl methods is like > drilling a hole through a dyke wall. By getting loads of perl > programmers on board, you suddenly have a large userbase wishing they > can do more in perl, so you implement perl products. (yes, I've read the > FAQ too, hence my politicians comment...) > > This userbase gets into hacking the core and bring perl into there. Yeah, but for that you'd need to be able to import Python code into Perl, or alternatively reimplement all those core classes (ObjectManager, etc.). And integrate Perl code with ZODB (pickle instances of perl classes.) Why would anyone spend time doing that? -- Itamar S.T. [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
- Original Message - From: "Chris Withers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Kevin Dangoor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "Chris McDonough" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Zope Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2000 11:05 AM Subject: Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope > Kevin Dangoor wrote: > > perl will be able to create complete through the web Products in perl/dtml. > > No!!! > > Keep perl and DTML seperate. If people want to play in Perl fine, but > keep it seperate from everything else. Perl-only methods and external > methods, no DTML mangling and no perl expression in dtml tags. Newbies > get confused enough with python... Sorry, I didn't mean to make it sound like THAT! (Which would indeed be appalling.) What I meant was that a typical through the web product developed today would be a combination of PythonMethods and DTML... people coming from the perl world could make their products using PerlMethods and DTML. Expressions in DTML are still python, which shouldn't be *too* painful for perl folks. Kevin ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
On Thu, 25 May 2000, John Chandler wrote: > then educate people as to how to use YNPLOC in > a way that matches the Zope philosophy. Ha, "educate people"! Educate people not to use Windows? Educate them at least not to be beaten by ILOVEYOE virus? Anyone succeede in this educating? > It's not worth arguing about, we're all united by Zope aren't we? Zope AND Python! Oleg.(All opinions are mine and not of my employer) Oleg Broytmann Foundation for Effective Policies [EMAIL PROTECTED] Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN. ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
Andrew Kenneth Milton wrote: > > > If the phantom 'perl userbase' could 'hack into the core' and put perl > in there, why would they wait for perl methods to become available first? > > They would have implemented PerlZope long before this. http://www.bgw.org/projects/pas2/ -- Steve Alexander Software Engineer Cat-Box limited ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
RE: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
<--lots 'o' stuff snipped--> Here's my opinion.. Zope is a structure or enivronment.. The reason thet DC gives you the ability to create products is because they don't want to do it all themselves.. If they want to open it to Perl/Java/ etc, more power to them, more products for us to use.. The Zope environment is written in python.. I wouldn't care if it was all in C (or assemlber for that matter).. If it gives me the interhitence, and the other neat features, with ot without python, fine by me.. Don't get me wrong, I like python and hate perl... But if someone perl hacker gives me a product that I can use, so much the better.. --John ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
Zopistas, This argument is all very funny. Why is it bad to be able to answer someone when they say "i use this perl script on my site, I want to use it in zope"? I would personally like this for little regexp programs. What matters is that 90% of the old-school web sites use perl as their glue, and they shouldn't have to have their sites fall apart when transitioning to zope. If it helps any, it should be obvious by now that zope is from the emacs school and not the vi school. Zope's problem domain is simply too wide to be addressed by anything but an all-inclusive approach. To me, perl is small beans, but XSLT... that sets me drooling. All sorts of other methods are fine by me, too. I highly doubt that the core codebase of Zope is going to ever be anything other than C and python, unless some other compiled language comes along that's even better & more portable than C or some lunatic decides that zope should work in jpython. ethan mindlace fremen Zopista Community Liason ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
Itamar Shtull-Trauring wrote: > > Chris Withers wrote: > > > I have to say, I'm not convinced it is. Providing Perl methods is like > > drilling a hole through a dyke wall. By getting loads of perl > > programmers on board, you suddenly have a large userbase wishing they > > can do more in perl, so you implement perl products. (yes, I've read the > > FAQ too, hence my politicians comment...) > > > > This userbase gets into hacking the core and bring perl into there. This is my primary concern as well. History bears this concern out. Keep the programming languages to Python (and some C where needed, of course). Even if it isn't done by DC, a large perl user base *will* come up with perl products. At which point DC will either be pressured into accepting them into thecore, or watching the branch become the dominant Zope. > Yeah, but for that you'd need to be able to import Python code into Perl, or > alternatively reimplement all those core classes (ObjectManager, etc.). And > integrate Perl code with ZODB (pickle instances of perl classes.) Why would > anyone spend time doing that? Two questions: o Seen Minotaur? o Beacuse that's what perlers do: they rewrite everything as often as they can ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
"J. Atwood" wrote: > > Gang (and Paul), > > I guess my major concern (and mosts) would be that one of the reasons > we like Python/Zope/OO is that it is not Perl and does not have all > that quirky structure and if you introduce Perl into Zope it would be > like throwing a pair of red socks in your white wash, we all go pink. > > After some thought last night (no sleep loss) I could see it working > in the way of a product or a Perl Method and not disturbing the DTML > code (please don't do this). Exactly, we don't let python disturb DTML, why would we let perl? > The end result though is that if we can get the Perl community to > start using/developing on Zope it is a big win. This is, in fact, one of the key points. -- -Michel Pelletier http://www.zope.org/Members/michel/MyWiki Visit WikiCentral for the latest Zen: http://www.zope.org/Members/WikiCentral ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
"J. Atwood" wrote: [...] > There are tens of thousands of Perl programmers out there, just think of all > the cool things they write (especially if they found a better tool). I hear this repeated, but no one explains why they will convert? When they get to stay in perlland, they don't actually use Zope and python, so they don't really see the better tool. And no, not having perl products won't change that, as I have saidl someone will eventually do it, with or without DC's support. ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
"J. Atwood" wrote: > > The real question is: Can we get all those Perl people to help with > our documentation? :) I hope so. > I, for one, will welcome my Perl brothers (actually sent the ANN > post to two of them five seconds after reading it) and hope that > together we can bring Zope to everyone. This is the right attitude. We don't want these folks coming in here with their years of experience and thousands of lines of code and snub them. We don't want flame wars. We don't want people asking questions and getting answers like "oh, well why the hell are you using Perl anyway?". I for one don't know perl, can't read it, never used it and probably won't unless I'm paid to; and if someone asks me a question about their snip of perl code I won't be able to help them. But if someone asks me about a peice of well documented Zope interface, it shouldn't matter which language they speak, they should get a clear answer. This is more important than the syntax anyday. -- -Michel Pelletier http://www.zope.org/Members/michel/MyWiki Visit WikiCentral for the latest Zen: http://www.zope.org/Members/WikiCentral ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
Martijn Faassen wrote: > > J. Atwood wrote: > > Stunned. Totally and utterly stunned. I would have thought there > > would be Java floating around in Zope's bowl before Perl! Perl? > > Jeeze... what a great but very scary thing. I trust that DC will do > > it right. > > I'd agree with the scary part. Scaaary. I hope DC will do it right indeed, > and that I can't *see* the Perl if I don't want to see it. DTML is bad > enough already! :) Zope doesn't ship with any components written in SQL, it is probably the case that it won't ship with any components written in Perl. Also, this is through the web style perl methods ala PythonMethods (I believe, I'm not on top of this project). ALthought it may be possible, I'mguessing that writing a full fledged Zope product in perl would be trickier than it's worth. Don't worry, like Paul said, Zope has methods in many languages and more to come, Perl is a great step forward in telling people that we are not interested in excluding, but including. Sooner or later, someone on the perl side is going to spend all of their effort and come up with something that tries to be like Zope, this is a waste of effort. Look at Gnome and KDE and how they are constantly working to cross purposes, inventing the same interfaces at thousands of levels in subltly or grossly different ways. It's actually pretty depressing when you think about how an unified effort would far exceed the sum of the two incredible efforts to date. We don't want that in the web world. -- -Michel Pelletier http://www.zope.org/Members/michel/MyWiki Visit WikiCentral for the latest Zen: http://www.zope.org/Members/WikiCentral ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
Digicool's announcement of some Perl support for Zope obviously surprised a lot of people. I haven't seen much positive reaction here on the list. In fact, I daresay I have seen some concerns which I consider to be quite valid indeed. After all, a web developer who is a Python fanatic chooses Zope for its underlying language. [Sh|H]e is unlikely to react warmly to the stench of Perl and the hideous possibility that a customer might develop the expectation that Zope and Perl expertise would go hand in hand. [ Oops, sorry. Did I accidentally let my personal scripting language bias show through in the previous paragraph? ;-) ] Actually, I'm posting this note to offer another perspective, in support of this news. The following is just my opinion, formulated largely out of conjecture and a desire to view this Perl-Zope announcement in a more positive light: In the bigger picture, maybe it's not about "Perl vs. Python". Maybe it's about "scripting languages vs. Java". Sad to say, a majority of IT people in the world think that the terms "application server" and "Java" are nearly synonymous. Next time you have a chance to visit a major Internet tradeshow, look around at all the Java-based application servers. You can't swing a dead cat without hitting one of them. Zope is different. It's certainly accurate to say that Zope is all about Python. However, it's also somewhat accurate to say that Zope is about server-side *scripting*. I don't see this announcement as a major shift toward Perl on the part of the Zope developers. Looking over the history of Digital Creations and its team, it seems quite obvious that any of them could prick their finger and see Python code flowing out instead of blood. I *speculate* that this announcement is simply a consequence of Really Big Vision. Right now, Zope is 'The Python Application Server'. Let's suppose for a moment that Zope's ambitions are much bigger than we think, and that its commitment to purity is slightly lower than we think. In other words, let's just suppose that Zope really wants to be 'The Scripting-Language Application Server'. If so, then why should it not invite the [enormous] Perl crowd into its community? -- Eric W. Sink, Software Craftsman SourceGear Corporation [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
"Eric W. Sink" wrote: > After all, a web developer who is a Python > fanatic chooses Zope for its underlying language. [Sh|H]e is unlikely > to react warmly to the stench of Perl and the hideous possibility that > a customer might develop the expectation that Zope and Perl expertise > would go hand in hand. > > [ Oops, sorry. Did I accidentally let my personal scripting language > bias show through in the previous paragraph? ;-) ] :-). I think there is a significant proportion of Python programmers who are Perl refugees (funny, you don't hear much about the flip-side of that equation), so this announcement was bound to rub a few raw nerves the wrong way (if you pardon the metaphor mix). I'm glad my Perl maintenance days are (mostly) behind me (where the only # in a 4K+ script was the #! invocation at the start - shudder), so I wasn't too sure what I thought when I read the announcement. But I figure DC are pretty smart guys (heck, look at Zope - I couldn't dream that up in a month of Bourbon), and so far they've been on the ball, so let's give them the benefit of the doubt. Heck, might even win a few more Python cultists^Wactivists^Wenthusiasts along the way. :-) (* Other well thought comments regretfully snipped *). Regards, Daryl Tester ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
RE: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
> Ooo Ooo - XSLT? > Presumably I should read your sentence as "You will have the option > of using Perl as well as XSLT methods pretty soon" and not "Thou wilt > need Perl to get XSLT methods" ? :) The former... see http://www.zope.org/Wikis/zope-xml/UseCases ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
Paul Everitt wrote: > > That's [the egg] quite a strained metaphor. I'll be pretty unequivocal. Anyone > that thinks we are lessening our commitment to Python (a) hasn't read > the FAQ before reacting and (b) doesn't know us very well. > > On the other hand, we'll likely do even more things like this over the > year: open up to COM, CORBA, etc. as method facilities. Context === Now, it's late, I've read the whole thread and I'm very calm, I swear. You asked our thoughts, here are mine, with humility. A cheap market study, you must confess ... I'm a french speaking Belgian, excuse my strange English. Prolog == I didn't say you were lessening your commitment to Python and (a) I had read the FAQ (b) your answer shows I'm not quite wrong about you. But I must admit I was not explicit enough ... (I'll come back with this a few lines further :-) Act 1 = Why do we love Python ? Because of the Zen. "Explicit is better than Implicit, ..." I'm sure you know Tim Peeters Classics. We love Python because of its purity. Why were the two colorfull metaphors speaking about white and another color ? (Red socks and yolk). White is Python. Act2 Zope is not quite white. And most of us wanted it whitened, with age and maturity. Do you need to be burnt to accept the stove is hot ? Then, look at the symptom in this list : you're overwhelmed with posts you can't answer to. Why are there so much posts ? Because there are so much Zopistas ? I would love to think so. But I fear it's because the ZDP is still so young (they yell for help not far from here), and you, you're very cute Python programmers, but couldn't help but mess python purity to get things running as you wanted. With Python, it rolls; with Zope it sometimes roll, but then it's so good, mmmh ? There are lots of strange features, black magic. At least for most of your users, some may have better eyes. Act3 And now, you think you're ready to bite in the Perl apple. I would have think you could grow a little stronger before attracting foreign intricacy, increasing product support needs. Python helps you, I hope you're strong enough with such a weapon to grow up and to firm up at the same time. I hope you see now I'm not fighting against Perl, COM or CORBA. I fear nor hate either. It's about you and us, your community. You do anything to broaden your base and you say we won't be splashed ? Will we gain or loose if you succeed in attracting Perl developers (I don't predict a big rush, they are so shy :-) Will Zope be stronger or messier. It's a political choice. If you don't fear some losses in your ranks, provided you get new strong soldiers further, all right, that's a good choice, you're rational. After all, product support is your job, you'll have more work opportunities so. If you love Python because Python is also CP4E, if you'd love Zope to be WP4E (Web Publication for Everybody), you're running too fast. From here where I sit, it looks like the RedHat Syndrom. I hope I'm wrong. I hope it's just because I'm getting old and I fear that juvenile impatience. Epilog == Explicit is better than Implicit. I give you the mike, tell us what your priorities are, what you do want to achieve. So, you'll be "unequivocal", we'll know you better. "The synergy between the decision to go open source and the increase in revenue is direct. It's astounding," Everitt said(*). What next ? Lucrative open source or real Zen ? (*) Linux Journal http://www.linux-mag.com/cgi-bin/printer.pl?issue=2000-01&article=venture -- Denis Frère P3B: Club Free-Pytho-Linuxien Carolorégien http://www.p3b.org Aragne : Internet - Réseaux - Formations http://www.aragne.com ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
On Thu, May 25, 2000 at 11:24:17AM -0700, Michel Pelletier wrote: > Zope doesn't ship with any components written in SQL, it is probably the > case that it won't ship with any components written in Perl. Also, this > is through the web style perl methods ala PythonMethods (I believe, I'm > not on top of this project). ALthought it may be possible, I'mguessing > that writing a full fledged Zope product in perl would be trickier than > it's worth. The main thing is that "full fledged" things in perl would be fine. Any product or site that is completely perl or completely python is going to be easy for people to maintain. I just looked about for the FAQ and couldn't find it, so I'm not sure what it says except what I've picked up here "no products in perl". I assume this means no external products in perl. If Perl Methods exist, though, then some people will put them into their ZClasses and their _internal_ Products, and you'll end up with products that _are_ mixes of perl and python. It would be _really_ bad if someone installed a wonderful product like SquishDot and discovered that half the internals were in perl only 6 months down the track when they actually needed to change something in it. The main thing is that the Product page needs to specify EXACTLY what a Product uses or requires so people don't ever install things that run counter to their skills. Products need to list any other products they need (like TinyTables), whether or not they need a Database Connection and any languages they may have methods in that _aren't_ python or dtml. That there's a possibility of contamination isn't a problem at all as long as everything's labelled properly. (P.S. The Member Contributed Products page has long needed the "Product", "Created by" and "Date" headings to actually be clickable and to then sort the list by that value. I can't count the times I've gone to the Product page to see if there is something new and had to look at every single date to try and work out if it's newer than the last time I looked...) > Don't worry, like Paul said, Zope has methods in many languages and more > to come, Perl is a great step forward in telling people that we are not > interested in excluding, but including. Sooner or later, someone on the > perl side is going to spend all of their effort and come up with > something that tries to be like Zope, this is a waste of effort. I know someone writing a Zope-like management interface in PHP. Are PHP methods coming? (Actually they'd probably be more useful than Perl methods from what I hear...) -- Evan ~ThunderFoot~ Gibson~ nihil mutatem, omni deletum ~ It doesn't count as intimacy until somebody starts crying. ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
mindlace <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > If it helps any, it should be obvious by now that zope is from the emacs > school and not the vi school. Check out the flamefest on comp.emacs a few years ago when someone tried to introduce rudimentary perl scripting support to emacs. Very similar to this one (but in that case, the perl-adding camp was clearly sick and wrong). -- Karl Anderson [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
- Original Message - From: "Eric W. Sink" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Paul Everitt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2000 4:05 PM Subject: Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope [snip] > Maybe it's about "scripting languages vs. Java". > > Sad to say, a majority of IT people in the world think that the terms > "application server" and "Java" are nearly synonymous. Next time you > have a chance to visit a major Internet tradeshow, look around at all > the Java-based application servers. You can't swing a dead cat > without hitting one of them. [snip] > think. In other words, let's just suppose that Zope really wants to > be 'The Scripting-Language Application Server'. Or maybe just "The Application Server/Content Management System"? Here's a tally of what we've got (* = to be released): HTTP WebDAV XML-RPC SOAP* Python C (if you really want to :) XML/XSLT* Perl* SQL (Oracle, Sybase, PostgreSQL, ...) That's a pretty broad range of support. You can attach to all sorts of good things with a system like that. Someone might look at that list and say "man, that's one powerful, flexible application platform!" Those IT folks you're referring to might say, "but we just invested $500,000 in Java based stuff". Now, I have no idea what all might be in the works at DC... but, I wouldn't be surprised if they happened to find the right partner that they might integrate some Java in with Zope. In fact, through the wonder of Open Source, they could create JavascriptMethods by borrowing from Mozilla and use some of the Apache group's work to get servlets and the like to play nice with Zope objects. I'm not trying to scare people with this made-up talk of Java. My point is that Zope is a very powerful framework that is already fairly language agnostic. It will probably benefit by having better ties to the other widely used languages. I don't know Java. But, I wouldn't be afraid to hook into a servlet that provides useful functionality. I use tools all the time that I have no desire to look inside of. Yes, I agree that Zope needs more newbie docs and APIs need to be better documented (and I do believe that those things are moving forward). But, evolution of the Zope platform is important as well... and keep in mind that DC is not doing all of the work alone here. ActiveState is involved as well (just as DC has a partnership for the XSLT stuff that is underway). Kevin ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
> > then educate people as to how to use YNPLOC in > > a way that matches the Zope philosophy. > >Ha, "educate people"! Educate people not to use Windows? Educate them at > least not to be beaten by ILOVEYOE virus? Anyone succeede in this educating? A lot of people use Windows because they either aren't aware of alternatives or don't understand the alternatives. I've shown people alternatives to Windows, and some times it's worked, other times it hasn't. Education done well can work wonders, but I wouldn't say it works all the time - some people are never going to listen. :-( The important thing, IMHO, is to make the effort to get people to understand the philosophy behind Zope. Some people are going to ignore it irrespective, but many could well take notice and be "saved" from doing the wrong thing. If you don't try, those people will slip through the net and end up charging into Zope the wrong way. John -- John Chandler / Software Developer / New Information Paradigms Ltd [ Linux in the office, AmigaOS in the home, PalmOS in the pocket ] The opinions above aren't those of my company... ...but then, they aren't really mine either. ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
"Eric W. Sink" wrote: > > Digicool's announcement of some Perl support for Zope obviously > surprised a lot of people. I haven't seen much positive reaction here > on the list. > > In fact, I daresay I have seen some concerns which I consider to be > quite valid indeed. After all, a web developer who is a Python > fanatic chooses Zope for its underlying language. [Sh|H]e is unlikely > to react warmly to the stench of Perl and the hideous possibility that > a customer might develop the expectation that Zope and Perl expertise > would go hand in hand. > > [ Oops, sorry. Did I accidentally let my personal scripting language > bias show through in the previous paragraph? ;-) ] > > Actually, I'm posting this note to offer another perspective, in > support of this news. The following is just my opinion, formulated > largely out of conjecture and a desire to view this Perl-Zope > announcement in a more positive light: > > In the bigger picture, maybe it's not about "Perl vs. Python". > > Maybe it's about "scripting languages vs. Java". > > Sad to say, a majority of IT people in the world think that the terms > "application server" and "Java" are nearly synonymous. Next time you > have a chance to visit a major Internet tradeshow, look around at all > the Java-based application servers. You can't swing a dead cat > without hitting one of them. > > Zope is different. It's certainly accurate to say that Zope is all > about Python. However, it's also somewhat accurate to say that Zope > is about server-side *scripting*. > > I don't see this announcement as a major shift toward Perl on the part > of the Zope developers. Looking over the history of Digital Creations > and its team, it seems quite obvious that any of them could prick > their finger and see Python code flowing out instead of blood. > > I *speculate* that this announcement is simply a consequence of > Really Big Vision. > > Right now, Zope is 'The Python Application Server'. > > Let's suppose for a moment that Zope's ambitions are much bigger than > we think, and that its commitment to purity is slightly lower than we > think. In other words, let's just suppose that Zope really wants to > be 'The Scripting-Language Application Server'. > > If so, then why should it not invite the [enormous] Perl crowd into > its community? Well, I think I can comment on som eof teh 'revulsion' of many of the persons on the list. Some of us have/do hang out on c.l.python and c.l.perl. We have witness _ferst_hand_ this 'community's collective 'gargabe'. TO compare the two communities, you start with how they act/ do not act as one. First place to look: usenet, the sewer. In c.l.perl, any mention of non-perl, or anything less than absolute praise for perl, will land you in a flame war the likes or which satan himself wears asbestos clothing for (and if you mention python, satan bows out due to heat). I have seen people _try_ to start flame wars on c.l.py, and fail 99% of the time. I have only once seen something close to a flame war on c.l.py in many years. And in that was due in a large part to the other person in it (those who witnessed it now who I am speaking of). I believe that at least a good portion of the reason for the negative reaction is not just perl, but also due to this 'community' we hypothetically acquire. Let's be honest, perl users tend to be people who learned/learning it because it would help get them a job, and they also tend to be of the script-kiddie variety. yes, there are good perl people, I am not denying it. But there are far, far more of the negative kind than there are the positive kind (and _they_ are already converting ;-). I can pretty much gaurantee that oce we start getting perl people on the list, doing stuff in perl, the following scenario will occur repeatedly: "I want to do this, how do I do it?" "like this..." "I don;t want to use python, I want to use the all cool lnaguage of perl" "Sorry, can't help you" "You suck, I thought I could do this in perl, and now you say I am on my own? What good is a support list without support. YOU said you SUPPORTED PERL!! I DON'T WANT to use python, why in hell would I??" We will also likely see the following at least a couple times: "Yeah, python was so cool they had to open Zope up to perl 'cuz pythn wasn't cutting it" and variations. Thus, since I doubt we can get DC to change their minds, I propose we prepare for at least the following list splits: zope-devel-python zope-devel-perl zope-devel-general zope-general zope-python zope-perl I also gaurantee that if we don't see the split, and we actually do get a sizeable portion of the perl users on these lists, we will see flamewars, and thus a decrease of Python people on the lists. Call me pessimistic, but I have _witnessed_ repeatedly, this precise situation. I am just trying to cut through the emotions, and deal with reality here. Now, for those still reading... some technical issues. Have you SEEN perl's O
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
Michel Pelletier wrote: > > Martijn Faassen wrote: > > > > J. Atwood wrote: > > > Stunned. Totally and utterly stunned. I would have thought there > > > would be Java floating around in Zope's bowl before Perl! Perl? > > > Jeeze... what a great but very scary thing. I trust that DC will do > > > it right. > > > > I'd agree with the scary part. Scaaary. I hope DC will do it right indeed, > > and that I can't *see* the Perl if I don't want to see it. DTML is bad > > enough already! :) > > Zope doesn't ship with any components written in SQL, it is probably the > case that it won't ship with any components written in Perl. Also, this > is through the web style perl methods ala PythonMethods (I believe, I'm > not on top of this project). ALthought it may be possible, I'mguessing > that writing a full fledged Zope product in perl would be trickier than > it's worth. I certainly hope so1 :-) I echo another question: will this be a product we can choose not to install, just as PythonMethods is? > Don't worry, like Paul said, Zope has methods in many languages and more > to come, Perl is a great step forward in telling people that we are not > interested in excluding, but including. Sooner or later, someone on the > perl side is going to spend all of their effort and come up with > something that tries to be like Zope, this is a waste of effort. Look > at Gnome and KDE and how they are constantly working to cross purposes, > inventing the same interfaces at thousands of levels in subltly or > grossly different ways. It's actually pretty depressing when you think > about how an unified effort would far exceed the sum of the two > incredible efforts to date. Actually, there is good reason to doubt such a thing could exist. GNOME was born in no small part due to the GNOME folks not able to get along with (on a variety of levels)/or agree with the KDE folks. To think they could have produced a 'better' interface in a 'unified' effort is at best hopeful. ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
Chris McDonough wrote: > > Sheesh, it's like we'd recommended Microsoft in here or something. :-) In you hadn't noticed, ActiveState already has dealings 'with the dark side'. Integrating Visual Python into MS Visual Studio: http://www.activestate.com/Corporate/Media_Center/News/Press959117519.html A binary only release of Python: http://www.activestate.com/Products/ActivePython.html I won't bother putting in a Yoda quote about the dark side being easier, not stronger... ;-) Michael Bernstein. ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
Oleg Broytmann wrote: > > On Thu, 25 May 2000, Kevin Dangoor wrote: > > People who are big fans of python aren't forced to use those Products, but I > >Very soon we'll be forced, 'cause most Products will be in Perl (yse, > I've read the FAQ and saw "no Perl Products"; it's temporary, mark you). 'Perl Products'? Perhaps not. 'ZClass Products' that are built with Perl Methods? Almost certainly yes. Michael Bernstein. ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
On Fri, May 26, 2000 at 03:02:42PM +, Michael Bernstein wrote: > In you hadn't noticed, ActiveState already has dealings > 'with the dark side'. Bring on the paranoia people! Microsoft _invests_ in ActiveState. ActiveState originally started with a Win32 port of Perl, together with support packages for Perl on Win32 platforms. And commercial development tools, like a visual debugger, and special versions of Perl that plug into IIS and the ActiveScripting platform. At IPC8 this January, they announced they were extending their services to Python as well. This means that ActiveState now also does Python for Win32, with all extensions, support, and commercial products they do for Perl as well. It's what they are good at. No wonder Microsoft invests in ActiveState, because Microsoft wants Win32 to be a strong development platform. Now, for all of you who are worried about M$ domination, ActiveState only just announced that they'll be adding support for Perl and Python to Mozilla, not just on win32, but, IIRC, all platforms where both Mozilla and the scripting languages in question run. And they'll throw in an IDE built on Mozilla as well, which will therefor run on all platforms Mozilla can run on. And there was much rejoicing. -- Martijn Pieters | Software Engineermailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | Digital Creations http://www.digicool.com/ | Creators of Zope http://www.zope.org/ | The Open Source Web Application Server - ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
Paul Everitt wrote: > > Howdy gang. Below is an announcement that we'll start distributing over > the next 24 hours. I wanted to let you folks see it first. In summary: > Perl Methods. (snip) I think this is a great idea. Here's why. One of the big ideas in Zope is that objects can be written in many languages. Python methods are good for logic, DTML (and soon XSLT) methods are good for presentation, SQL is good for RDBMS queries, and so on. The strength or "goodness" of a language is based on it's suitabilty for a kind of problem *and* it's suitability for a kind of problem solver. There is no one-size-fits-all language, either for problems or problem solvers. Perl methods will be a good thing for Zope because Perl is extremely suitable for a large class of problems and problem solvers. The fact that it overlaps with Python does not really make it less a good thing, any more than the overlap of DTML and XSLT makes XSLT less than a good thing for Zope. (I used Perl *alot* several years ago before I used Python. Perl helped me solve alot of hard problems with relative ease and I am indepted to Larry Wall and others who made it possible. I happen to prefer Python personally, but I respect Perl and the people who use and maintain it.) Obviously, extensive perl libraries are a huge opportunity for Zope. In the future, I'd be happy (and expect) to see other languages supported, XQL, TCL, PHP, lisp, Fortran, . :) Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! Technical Director (888) 344-4332http://www.python.org Digital Creationshttp://www.digicool.com http://www.zope.org Under US Code Title 47, Sec.227(b)(1)(C), Sec.227(a)(2)(B) This email address may not be added to any commercial mail list with out my permission. Violation of my privacy with advertising or SPAM will result in a suit for a MINIMUM of $500 damages/incident, $1500 for repeats. ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Jim Fulton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes >In the future, I'd be happy (and expect) to see >other languages supported, XQL, TCL, PHP, lisp, >Fortran, . :) What I would like to see first is support for Rebol ( www.rebol.com ). It's a great language for writing internet robots ( grabbing content off remote pages or ftp sites, retrieving mail, sending mail, scheduling jobs ) inter alia. Would fill a lot of the gaps that Zope has. - -- Regards, Graham Chiu gchiucompkarori.co.nz http://www.compkarori.co.nz/index.php Powered by Interbase and Zope -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGPsdk version 1.7.1 iQA/AwUBOS5h87TRdIWzaLpMEQILLQCbBzAYZ90+UTWq1dWvm8EnOhd+k9gAoIaE kpoJVTSfQiK5eMstHi54zNSf =XWCR -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
Seconded, REBOL is cool! - Original Message - From: "Graham Chiu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: 26 May 2000 23:37 Subject: Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Jim Fulton > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes > >In the future, I'd be happy (and expect) to see > >other languages supported, XQL, TCL, PHP, lisp, > >Fortran, . :) > > What I would like to see first is support for Rebol ( www.rebol.com ). > It's a great language for writing internet robots ( grabbing content off > remote pages or ftp sites, retrieving mail, sending mail, scheduling > jobs ) inter alia. Would fill a lot of the gaps that Zope has. > > - -- > Regards, Graham Chiu > gchiucompkarori.co.nz > http://www.compkarori.co.nz/index.php > Powered by Interbase and Zope > > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- > Version: PGPsdk version 1.7.1 > > iQA/AwUBOS5h87TRdIWzaLpMEQILLQCbBzAYZ90+UTWq1dWvm8EnOhd+k9gAoIaE > kpoJVTSfQiK5eMstHi54zNSf > =XWCR > -END PGP SIGNATURE- > > ___ > Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope > ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** > (Related lists - > http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce > http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
RE: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
Bill wrote: > Now, for those still reading... some technical issues. > > Have you SEEN perl's OO code?? I have actually compared perl > and python > objects, and even my anti-python friends (they are decreasing very > quickly) admit that perl's handling of objects stinks to high > orbit. It > may be a Object publishing environment, but it still needs > topublish one > basic type of object. Here is where I think we will see the > biggest part > of the prblems on the technical side. Perl's objects are of a > lesser ... > refinement than Python's, and interfacing the two directly is not > pretty, nor easy. That is why I favor supporting perl through > CORBA, let > an independant system designed specifically for that 'type' of thing > handle it. It's funny that you bring this up. One of the really interesting things about this project so far is learning about Perl internals. You're description is, apparently, pretty accurate. However, the way we've done this mitigates the issue in two ways. First, Perl doesn't need objects to fulfill its job. Functions are bound to the object system. All the real stuff (persistence, transactions, etc.) is in Zope (read: Python). Honestly, the goal really _is_ to make Perl a scripting language for Zope, not an implementation language! The contract says so! Second, ActiveState will work on improving facilities missing in Perl, such as reflection, to support our requirements (e.g. sniffing at method signatures). --Paul ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
I have kept silent on this issue while watching comments fly by. I'll agree with a comment Paul made about passions being high and that can be a good thing. Disagreements are sometimes inevitable, however we do not have to be disagreeable. It seems that many here who do not share the concerns of others have left technically arguments and gone on to calling others childish or silly. It is reasonable and understandable that you may not agree with them. However to resort to such behaviour is below this community. I hope the concerns expressed by many here do not happen. However, that does not mean they can't. I like many here chose Python then Zope. I chose Python not Perl. What is taking place here and has caught many in the community off guard is somewhat of a change in what Zope is. Some have expressed that Zope is already multilingual. That is true to a certain extent. But Perl does not add to Zope capabilities that Python does not have. (IMHO) In this perspective it does not add to Zope. Python, DTML, SQL, XML, XML-RPC, XSLT, etc. are not equivalent languages. They have different scopes and capabilities. Python and Perl are reasonably equivalent in capabilities and it boils down to personal preference on the choice. This brings us back to a change in what Zope is or what Zope has been seen as. This provides an opportunity for DC and the community to really define what is Zope. This discussion needs to clarify what Zope's definition is. This will promote greater understanding and reduce misunderstandings. To this point in many peoples minds Zope has been defined as being Python. This changes things. Yes I understand Zope itself is built in and will continue to be built in Python and C. This is a paradigm shift for many here. Once this settles down, I hope this community will be stronger for it. More comments to follow. Jimmie Houchin ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
Are Python Products considered implementation level? Or another question. What are the current reasons that Perl Products are a no no? Where are the lines for having other languages being first class citizens of Zope without them being "implementation languages"? I think this also goes back to and begs the question of what is core Zope and what is built upon it? This somewhat could be answered by the modularization of Zope and it's companion packages. Just a couple of questions to hopefully clarify things. Jimmie Houchin Paul Everitt wrote: > Bill wrote: [snip stuff about Perl's OO model] > It's funny that you bring this up. One of the really interesting things > about this project so far is learning about Perl internals. You're > description is, apparently, pretty accurate. > > However, the way we've done this mitigates the issue in two ways. > > First, Perl doesn't need objects to fulfill its job. Functions are > bound to the object system. All the real stuff (persistence, > transactions, etc.) is in Zope (read: Python). Honestly, the goal > really _is_ to make Perl a scripting language for Zope, not an > implementation language! The contract says so! > > Second, ActiveState will work on improving facilities missing in Perl, > such as reflection, to support our requirements (e.g. sniffing at method > signatures). > > --Paul ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
Chris McDonough wrote: > Isn't this covered in the FAQ? The FAQ wasn't referred to directly in the original announcement; there was a web page with a FAQ but my mail message was already gone before I read the FAQ. > Honestly I'm sort of surprised that there is such a strong reaction to > this. When you talk about Perl for Zope, you're talking about three > things: It wasn't that strong a reaction; I just think Perl is scary. :) I also think DTML is scary! Expressing my feelings in this is not meant to be a 'strong reaction'; I wasn't complaining (this time :), sorry if it seemed like that. > Perl through the web methods > Perl external methods > Glue code to make these things work properly > > I presume you're worried about #3. Actually, I shouldn't presume that, > I don't know what you're actually worried about. Umm... what *are* you > all worried about? I think it'd be mostly glue code, changes to the Zope core, possible side-effects on this change on the Python part (in the sense of "well, we can't do that as that would break Perl compatilility"), all before interfaces have stabilized. The interfaces project is _very_ important, and as another poster expressed, afterwards it's fine to add stuff to the core. Before, it's fairly scary. Anyway, I wasn't that scared. I just don't want to _see_ the Perl support; don't want to have to think about it at all. Cool for the Perl folks, but I just don't want to deal with the consequences myself. :) This is probably because it isn't a feature that helps me any; I'm willing to deal with the consequences of features that I'm interested in, so this is in part selfish. Perhaps more focus on COM/CORBA style component integration could also mitigate this problem? Imagine we build such a future system; if the Perl system goes *around* such an interface, we'll end up with more complex code. Regards, Martijn ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
Andrew Kenneth Milton wrote: > +[ Chris McDonough ]- > | This is pretty silly. > > I agree, it got silly about 8 hours ago. > > I don't think I've ever seen paranoia and religious fervour mixed in > quite the same way before. Anyone would think that people think that > python is inadequate as a language. Right; it's more likely the Perlers that do come in (if they will at all!) will learn Python. Legitimate worry 1: If the Perlers *do* come in and *don't* switch to Python soon, we'll run into Zope sites half written in Perl. That may be unpleasant for people to deal with. This is possibly not a big deal; it's unlikely the Perl group will become dominant anyway. This does beg the question why Perl support is put in at all; if the DC people believe this *too*, they're adding a feature that's not even intended to be used as a feature, but is more like a marketing device for Zope. Legitimate worry 2: In order to support Perl, the Zope Python sources will be hacked up and certain new limitations/weirdnesses are introduced. This could be mitigated by *generalizing* the interface with other languages. Not just put in Perl specific patches. Clean interfaces and componentization are the key here. Regards, Martijn ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
Look, a whole bunch of great questions for Wed's IRC chat. :^) I propose 1PM Eastern on Wed for the chat. We'll make a more formal announcement tomorrow. (Right, Ethan?) --Paul Jimmie Houchin wrote: > > Are Python Products considered implementation level? > > Or another question. What are the current reasons that Perl Products are > a no no? > > Where are the lines for having other languages being first class > citizens of Zope without them being "implementation languages"? > > I think this also goes back to and begs the question of what is core > Zope and what is built upon it? > > This somewhat could be answered by the modularization of Zope and it's > companion packages. > > Just a couple of questions to hopefully clarify things. > > Jimmie Houchin > > Paul Everitt wrote: > > Bill wrote: > [snip stuff about Perl's OO model] > > It's funny that you bring this up. One of the really interesting > things > > about this project so far is learning about Perl internals. You're > > description is, apparently, pretty accurate. > > > > However, the way we've done this mitigates the issue in two ways. > > > > First, Perl doesn't need objects to fulfill its job. Functions are > > bound to the object system. All the real stuff (persistence, > > transactions, etc.) is in Zope (read: Python). Honestly, the goal > > really _is_ to make Perl a scripting language for Zope, not an > > implementation language! The contract says so! > > > > Second, ActiveState will work on improving facilities missing in Perl, > > such as reflection, to support our requirements (e.g. sniffing at > method > > signatures). > > > > --Paul ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
I'd happilly pay a few hundred bucks to be able to use Scheme (more specifically Guile with GOOPS and perhaps CMH could use this as an excuse to get finished). []s, |alo + -- Hack and Roll ( http://www.hackandroll.org ) News for, uh, whatever it is that we are. http://zope.gf.com.br/lalo mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] pgp key: http://zope.gf.com.br/lalo/pessoal/pgp Brazil of Darkness (RPG)--- http://zope.gf.com.br/BroDar ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
On Fri, May 26, 2000 at 01:39:56AM +1000, Andrew Kenneth Milton wrote: > +[ Chris McDonough ]- > | This is pretty silly. > > I agree, it got silly about 8 hours ago. I'll go with that. In fact, the sheer, stupid *hatred* directed by a big chunk of the list at anyone who doesn't draw and quarter perl programmers on sight has me convinced not to bother with Zope any more; I can work with a variety of *tools* like Mason and ACS, rather than buy into *religions*, as Zope appears to be. Shame. I'm mostly a perl programmer, but Zope was convincing me I needed to spend some time on python. But if this list is representitive of the python community - well, I don't need more idiots in my life. -- Rodger Donaldson[EMAIL PROTECTED] "That... feels... wonderful... Bones..." "It's head, Jim." ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
Rodger Donaldson wrote: > I'll go with that. In fact, the sheer, stupid *hatred* directed by a big > chunk of the list at anyone who doesn't draw and quarter perl programmers on > sight has me convinced not to bother with Zope any more; I can work with > a variety of *tools* like Mason and ACS, rather than buy into *religions*, > as Zope appears to be. Heh - some people are stopping to use Zope 'cause of Perl Methods, and now people are stopping to use Zope because of all the other people who hate the idea of Zope supporing Perl. Now it's time for the third round of people, who are going to drop Zope because obviously everyone is stopping to use Zope, so what's the point of using it? Niven's 16th Law: "There is no cause so right that one cannot find a fool following it." While we're at it, the 14th: "There exist minds that think as well as you do, but differently. (The gene-tampered turkey you're talking to isn't necessarily one of them.)" -- Itamar S.T. [EMAIL PROTECTED] "It don't get thingier than that!" ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
RE: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
Frankly, I don't know what all the fuss is about. While I would personally choose Python over Perl when scripting, having additional choices is never a bad thing. Here are 3 reasons why Perl methods should be added: Increased userbase for ZOPE. Reusability of working Perl code. The ability to use Perl should I decide it can do the job better. If you feel that you need to stop using ZOPE because they added functionality, then see ya later. In addition, if you decide not to start using a great product like ZOPE because you feel you are being picked on, well then sorry, but you will be missing out. Fighting over this is silly and it wastes the time of those who would like to find meaningful answers to posed questions. JMHO, Jeff Peterson Software Engineer The Bridge/Befera Interactive Cablenet -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Rodger Donaldson Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 5:46 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope On Fri, May 26, 2000 at 01:39:56AM +1000, Andrew Kenneth Milton wrote: > +[ Chris McDonough ]- > | This is pretty silly. > > I agree, it got silly about 8 hours ago. I'll go with that. In fact, the sheer, stupid *hatred* directed by a big chunk of the list at anyone who doesn't draw and quarter perl programmers on sight has me convinced not to bother with Zope any more; I can work with a variety of *tools* like Mason and ACS, rather than buy into *religions*, as Zope appears to be. Shame. I'm mostly a perl programmer, but Zope was convincing me I needed to spend some time on python. But if this list is representitive of the python community - well, I don't need more idiots in my life. -- Rodger Donaldson[EMAIL PROTECTED] "That... feels... wonderful... Bones..." "It's head, Jim." ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
Seconded, Surely for most purposes the language used to implement is irrelevant. Code in whatever you want, stick PHP/Smalltalk/whatever language into Zope if it means more people can use it, and save me having to write my own stuff ;) The important thing is the framework! Phil [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: "Jeff Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: 31 May 2000 21:30 Subject: RE: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope > Frankly, I don't know what all the fuss is about. While I would personally > choose Python over Perl when scripting, having additional choices is never a > bad thing. > > Here are 3 reasons why Perl methods should be added: > > Increased userbase for ZOPE. > Reusability of working Perl code. > The ability to use Perl should I decide it can do the job better. > > If you feel that you need to stop using ZOPE because they added > functionality, then see ya later. In addition, if you decide not to start > using a great product like ZOPE because you feel you are being picked on, > well then sorry, but you will be missing out. > > Fighting over this is silly and it wastes the time of those who would like > to find meaningful answers to posed questions. > > JMHO, > > Jeff Peterson > Software Engineer > The Bridge/Befera Interactive Cablenet ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
On Wed, May 31, 2000 at 10:45:31PM +1200, Rodger Donaldson wrote: > the sheer, stupid *hatred* directed by a big > chunk of the list at anyone who doesn't draw and quarter perl > programmers on > sight That's an overstatement. > But if this list is representitive of the python > community - well, I don't need more idiots in my life. Oooo, now you're calling everyone an idiot. May I ask if you do this stuff for a living, or for fun? I do this for fun, and I intend to try Enhydra (Java), Mason (Perl), ACS (Tcl) and assorted other stuff. I don't let other people who use those stuff put me off. If I am doing this for a living, the type of people on the users' mailing list is just one (minor) factor in selecting the technology. Your response is typical of one from the Perl community. No wonder people on this list are up in arms over the idea of integrating Perl and Zope. They worry more people like you will turn up! My $0.02. Cheers. -- Ng Pheng Siong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> * http://www.post1.com/home/ngps ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
