Re: [Zope] Re: Is DTML a bastardized form of XML, or valid XML?
I'm pretty sure "new syntax" DTML is not actually valid XML, but it doesn't really matter: it's a bad idea either way. The new syntax is a misguided attempt to mix the base and meta levels, which can only result in confusion. DTML is not markup, it is a macro language for generating markup. As such, it will not always be possible to coerce it into a form that meets the syntax rules of the base language. But meeting those rules, and consequently being able to use XML editors, is the only real justification for the new syntax. h1 !--#if "fervor 2"--class="hot"!--#/if-- How do I do this in "new" DTML? /h1 h1 dtml-if "fervor 2"class="hot"/dtml-if This isn't valid XML (bad attribute). /h1 dtml-if expr="fervor 2" h1 class="hot" dtml-else h1 /dtml-if This isn't valid XML, either (bad nesting). /h1 dtml-if expr="fervor 2" h1 class="hot" This is very clumsy and does not scale. /h1 dtml-else h1 ...but I think it is valid XML. /h1 /dtml-if Also, XML requires all attributes to be quoted, so forget about using the implicit name/expr distinction with your shiny new XML editor. The new syntax doesn't satisfy the arguments that were given to support it, and it decreases the readability and maintainability of DTML code that uses it by making it hard to distinguish DTML directives from markup. I avoid it, and I don't recommend it to others. joe ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
RE: [Zope] Re: Is DTML a bastardized form of XML, or valid XML?
There was tremendous discussion on the mailing list around the time of the introduction of the new syntax. As Jim made clear, the goals of the new syntax did _not_ include XML compliance. Instead, the goals were: a. Get rid of the old syntax. The SSI style was universally ridiculed and requires typing of hard-to-reach characters. b. Make it possible for some HTML editors that can extend their tag database to recognize DTML tags. At the time of the introduction, XML editors were not widely adopted. That still hasn't changed. Hope this correction helps. --Paul -Original Message- From: Joe Pallas [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 23, 2000 8:39 AM To: Martijn Pieters; Hung Jung Lu Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Zope] Re: Is DTML a bastardized form of XML, or valid XML? I'm pretty sure "new syntax" DTML is not actually valid XML, but it doesn't really matter: it's a bad idea either way. The new syntax is a misguided attempt to mix the base and meta levels, which can only result in confusion. DTML is not markup, it is a macro language for generating markup. As such, it will not always be possible to coerce it into a form that meets the syntax rules of the base language. But meeting those rules, and consequently being able to use XML editors, is the only real justification for the new syntax. h1 !--#if "fervor 2"--class="hot"!--#/if-- How do I do this in "new" DTML? /h1 h1 dtml-if "fervor 2"class="hot"/dtml-if This isn't valid XML (bad attribute). /h1 dtml-if expr="fervor 2" h1 class="hot" dtml-else h1 /dtml-if This isn't valid XML, either (bad nesting). /h1 dtml-if expr="fervor 2" h1 class="hot" This is very clumsy and does not scale. /h1 dtml-else h1 ...but I think it is valid XML. /h1 /dtml-if Also, XML requires all attributes to be quoted, so forget about using the implicit name/expr distinction with your shiny new XML editor. The new syntax doesn't satisfy the arguments that were given to support it, and it decreases the readability and maintainability of DTML code that uses it by making it hard to distinguish DTML directives from markup. I avoid it, and I don't recommend it to others. joe ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Re: Is DTML a bastardized form of XML, or valid XML?
On Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 08:39:01AM -0700, Joe Pallas wrote: I'm pretty sure "new syntax" DTML is not actually valid XML, but it doesn't really matter: it's a bad idea either way. The new syntax is a misguided attempt to mix the base and meta levels, which can only result in confusion. DTML is not markup, it is a macro language for generating markup. As such, it will not always be possible to coerce it into a form that meets the syntax rules of the base language. But meeting those rules, and consequently being able to use XML editors, is the only real justification for the new syntax. h1 !--#if "fervor 2"--class="hot"!--#/if-- How do I do this in "new" DTML? /h1 h1 dtml-if "fervor 2"class="hot"/dtml-if This isn't valid XML (bad attribute). /h1 dtml-if expr="fervor 2" h1 class="hot" dtml-else h1 /dtml-if This isn't valid XML, either (bad nesting). /h1 dtml-if expr="fervor 2" h1 class="hot" This is very clumsy and does not scale. /h1 dtml-else h1 ...but I think it is valid XML. /h1 /dtml-if Also, XML requires all attributes to be quoted, so forget about using the implicit name/expr distinction with your shiny new XML editor. The new syntax doesn't satisfy the arguments that were given to support it, and it decreases the readability and maintainability of DTML code that uses it by making it hard to distinguish DTML directives from markup. I avoid it, and I don't recommend it to others. The reason to introduce the now-not-so-new-anymore syntax was to make it more pallatable to _HTML_ editors, not XML editors. To this end also the DTML entity syntax was introduced, so you could easily embed variables and object calls (whith various formatting options) inside tags. With the enitity reference we can get closer to XML conformance. The above could also be formatted as: dtml-let fervor_class="_.test(fervor 2, 'class=\x22hot\x22', '')" h1 dtml_-fervor_class; This is, as far as I can see, valid XML, if maybe somewhat convoluted. /h1 /dtml-let The let tag combined with the _.test() method will assign a value of 'class="hot"' or '' to fervor_class, which is then inserted into the generated text without any formatting. But, again, the DTML syntax wasn't designed for this. It doesn't do namespaces. The dtml-else tag in a dtml-if/dtml-if isn't technically an empty tag, yet XML would dictate it is, and also require a / at the end. Etc. It was purely designed to be tolerated by an HTML editor, that doesn't care about bad nesting or what an empty tag should look like. We just tried to make a WYSIWYG HTML editor a bit more useful for HTML with DTML in it. -- Martijn Pieters | Software Engineermailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | Digital Creations http://www.digicool.com/ | Creators of Zope http://www.zope.org/ | The Open Source Web Application Server - ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Re: Is DTML a bastardized form of XML, or valid XML?
On Thu, Jun 22, 2000 at 05:45:58PM -0700, Hung Jung Lu wrote: The rest should be handled through a good GUI (Graphical User Interface), with fancy stuff like collapsable panel items. I hope Digicool is doing something like this with their Mozilla project. This kind of feature may indeed become part of Zope Studio _one day_. I first of all want Zope Studio to be a working product. For a first version, the goal of Zope Studio to provide a GUI alternative for the current management interface, but with the same basic functionality. For DTML editing this means that it will provide no more than basic text editing. I am in the process of clarifying all this right now, before we do any more development. The Zope Studio ZWiki will, over the coming days, contain much more information on what Zope Studio is about. -- Martijn Pieters | Software Engineermailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | Digital Creations http://www.digicool.com/ | Creators of Zope http://www.zope.org/ | The Open Source Web Application Server - ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
