Re: [Zope-CMF] Move to github?
Hi! Martin Aspeli wrote: I mean, there's no tangible cost (financial or otherwise) of using GitHub; and git's architecture pretty much ensures that there's no lock-in (especially if mirroring is set up). [...] I don't see it as supporting GitHub. I see it as using a service that is free to us and rather good. It saves resources (e.g. the time spent managing svn.zope.org http://svn.zope.org; the cost of bandwidth) that can be better spent elsewhere (e.g. working on Zope/CMF). It helps make it easier for others to contribute, because so many people already know how to use GitHub. GitHub Inc. is too successful. It already has too much power. That's not good for the open source community. Because? GitHub is on the best way to become a monopoly in the area of social coding platforms. Just like Facebook and Twitter already are in their markets. And all these platforms benefit from the network effect: Each additional user makes the monopoly more stable and powerful. As you say above, the fact other people use them as well makes them so valuable. Monopolies are bad. (At least if they are in private hand.) There is no technical lock-in for the Git repositories. But there are economic lock-in mechanisms. If you use a platform, you invest in it: You have to wrap your head around it. Maybe you helped improving the platform by reporting bugs, making feature requests or writing tools for it. You spend time trying to convince other people to use that platform. All these investments get lost if you switch to an other platform. And even if an other platform would be technically better you wouldn't switch because of the network effect that let's you stay where all the other people are. So GitHub Inc. has to make really bad decisions before people have an incentive to go somewhere else. What's the worst that could happen? GitHub goes belly-up and we starting using a different remote in our repos? GitHub tries to violate the license terms of our software somehow (that seems very unlikely)? Companies like GitHub Inc. want to maximize their profit. As soon as they are big enough, they become arrogant. One day they will start making money by placing ads everywhere. If I did get the discussion correctly, people didn't lobby for moving to GitHub just to use it as a cheap hosting service. They did it because of the proprietary features GitHub is building around the repositories. I don't want to give the responsibility for the way I collaborate with other contributers into the hands of a company. Cheers, Yuppie ___ Zope-CMF maillist - Zope-CMF@zope.org https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-cmf See https://bugs.launchpad.net/zope-cmf/ for bug reports and feature requests
Re: [Zope-CMF] Move to github?
Am 02.03.2013, 22:44 Uhr, schrieb Tres Seaver tsea...@palladion.com: The vote by foundation members to move to Github (rather than self-hosted Git) was far from unanimous. In fact, we are supposed to have worked out a means where folks could push to git.zope.org as the canonical repository for some projects. I would prefer this if possible. Charlie -- Charlie Clark Managing Director Clark Consulting Research German Office Kronenstr. 27a Düsseldorf D- 40217 Tel: +49-211-600-3657 Mobile: +49-178-782-6226 ___ Zope-CMF maillist - Zope-CMF@zope.org https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-cmf See https://bugs.launchpad.net/zope-cmf/ for bug reports and feature requests
Re: [Zope-CMF] Move to github?
I'm not major a CMF contributor and are unlikely to actually contribute much in the future, so I do not and should not have a say in the move. I'd just want to correct a factually incorrect statement though: On Mon, Mar 4, 2013 at 11:55 AM, yuppie y.2...@wcm-solutions.de wrote: Monopolies are bad. (At least if they are in private hand.) On the contrary, it's state supported monopolies that are bad. github, just like twitter and facebook, are still subject to market forces (and hence neither of them are actually monopolies in a strict sense, and just a dominant actor on the market, but that's nitpicking). As they are subject to market forces they can and will be deposed from being the major platform, if they stop doing a good job. Therefore, this type of monopoly are much less bad than any state-supported monopoly. This concludes this political broadcast. //Lennart ___ Zope-CMF maillist - Zope-CMF@zope.org https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-cmf See https://bugs.launchpad.net/zope-cmf/ for bug reports and feature requests
Re: [Zope-CMF] Move to github?
Am 04.03.2013, 17:46 Uhr, schrieb Lennart Regebro rege...@gmail.com: On the contrary, it's state supported monopolies that are bad… Monopolies of any sort are usually bad and, unfortunately, rarely corrected by market forces. So much for efficient market theory. Which is why, since Standard Oil, we have anti-trust legislation. There are exceptions but these are usually of a philosophical such as the European tradition of having a monopoly on the use of force, the US position (2nd amendment? is noticeably nuanced). Philosophically speaking I would side with Yuppie in saying the GitHub is up to no good and I do not maintain any repositories on it myself (that, and the fact that I can't get my head round git). However, with reference to our common projects I think it is a general discussion and I would feel slightly hypocritical pushing for a clean solution here while contributing to other parts of Zope (chance would be a fine thing) that are on GitHub. Still hoping for a third option. Charlie -- Charlie Clark Managing Director Clark Consulting Research German Office Kronenstr. 27a Düsseldorf D- 40217 Tel: +49-211-600-3657 Mobile: +49-178-782-6226 ___ Zope-CMF maillist - Zope-CMF@zope.org https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-cmf See https://bugs.launchpad.net/zope-cmf/ for bug reports and feature requests
Re: [Zope-CMF] Move to github?
yuppie y.2013@... writes: Hanno Schlichting wrote: Does anyone have objections if I ask him to convert the CMF packages? Yes. I have objections. I'd like to keep contributing to CMF. But I'm not going to support GitHub Inc. by using its services. Ok. I thought this might be controversial for CMF. I'm not going to push or argue about this for CMF, as I think Yvo is the closest to a benevolent dictator we have for CMF these days and the project certainly cannot afford to loose him. Hanno ___ Zope-CMF maillist - Zope-CMF@zope.org https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-cmf See https://bugs.launchpad.net/zope-cmf/ for bug reports and feature requests
Re: [Zope-CMF] Move to github?
Am 02.03.2013, 21:42 Uhr, schrieb Martin Aspeli optilude+li...@gmail.com: Seriously? I can understand reservations about the move and did indeed voice my own at the time. You do realise it's: a) free (for us) There's no such thing as a free lunch.™ b) decentralised If the shit really does hit the fan then I'm not sure that would help us that much. I appreciate you may have to do the occasional 'push' to a .com domain, but you've got to be kidding... I don't think the TLD is the problem. GitHub is a VC funded company and not a philanthropic institution. Yuppie has been by far the most prolific contributor to the CMF over the last few years. I'm not sure if it will have much of a future without his continued commitment. Charlie -- Charlie Clark Managing Director Clark Consulting Research German Office Kronenstr. 27a Düsseldorf D- 40217 Tel: +49-211-600-3657 Mobile: +49-178-782-6226 ___ Zope-CMF maillist - Zope-CMF@zope.org https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-cmf See https://bugs.launchpad.net/zope-cmf/ for bug reports and feature requests
Re: [Zope-CMF] Move to github?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 yuppie wrote: You do realise it's: a) free (for us) b) decentralised What do you mean by it? What by free? What is decentralised? Why do your points a) and b) make supporting GitHub Inc. a good decision? GitHub Inc. is too successful. It already has too much power. That's not good for the open source community. We all value your contributions to Zope and CMF __very much__ but is it really necessary being that fundamental? Andreas -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQGUBAEBAgAGBQJRM5pLAAoJEADcfz7u4AZjQMoLvRj6Ie46rUGVIXDLeDApRxGI aNdiqQClMu15f8vN+A6IsUOQ5uHtU4xIoH91oumRcSWH7qd4YAHhOZnbZo/+txMW YPrR4mmQFKvCxHOkXGhTsjx10s6LMfEWGGUZlnJCzCPga8SPjCguT75iV3bQfXgs 3sDOhd2oGPQUAgXGjZ8JidnU56lCRMm5ZjVEiMkxaaYZQnP7u8EaFPsS7v2/xWk6 zFaDtm7+av3BrcuxoJI2Sq98nUxK6GyZI/YVRLEMX9ZWK1hx5xJRFouGz+fDvSMm Z8gmYLEYq6d+rCjjZd80qv7hsJHhPkUT9CXo7zdmhluD2Hqj19z5zTYN6y/KGTjj WdSAWiW8Qo162Trr+SFsdhVBQ4qFcoLSQ+kzQD+L+TqXMumqrjytkIbp1hEZrM3c pjsDxuCJOD+KynUYI/GVRBrfJd4jD5NS69r6wKq0pFG+HWd5tMoW/4kkUaBO39mZ ty+pO46bGlWgussRY6BCIex9D7XcFxw= =X7W6 -END PGP SIGNATURE- attachment: lists.vcf___ Zope-CMF maillist - Zope-CMF@zope.org https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-cmf See https://bugs.launchpad.net/zope-cmf/ for bug reports and feature requests
Re: [Zope-CMF] Move to github?
Hi, On 3 March 2013 18:45, Andreas Jung li...@zopyx.com wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 yuppie wrote: You do realise it's: a) free (for us) b) decentralised What do you mean by it? What by free? What is decentralised? I mean, there's no tangible cost (financial or otherwise) of using GitHub; and git's architecture pretty much ensures that there's no lock-in (especially if mirroring is set up). Why do your points a) and b) make supporting GitHub Inc. a good decision? I don't see it as supporting GitHub. I see it as using a service that is free to us and rather good. It saves resources (e.g. the time spent managing svn.zope.org; the cost of bandwidth) that can be better spent elsewhere (e.g. working on Zope/CMF). It helps make it easier for others to contribute, because so many people already know how to use GitHub. GitHub Inc. is too successful. It already has too much power. That's not good for the open source community. Because? We all value your contributions to Zope and CMF __very much__ but is it really necessary being that fundamental? I'd echo that sentiment (especially the first part). What's the worst that could happen? GitHub goes belly-up and we starting using a different remote in our repos? GitHub tries to violate the license terms of our software somehow (that seems very unlikely)? Martin ___ Zope-CMF maillist - Zope-CMF@zope.org https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-cmf See https://bugs.launchpad.net/zope-cmf/ for bug reports and feature requests
Re: [Zope-CMF] Move to github?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 03/03/2013 04:54 PM, Martin Aspeli wrote: (e.g. the time spent managing svn.zope.org; the cost of bandwidth) that can be better spent elsewhere (e.g. working on Zope/CMF) FWIW, I doubt that those costs are measurable in any significant sense: bandwidth and core sysadmin for that host have been donated by Zope Corp. for more than a decade now. Volunteer time spent keeping the SVN server running run less than an hour a month (on par with maintaining the 150+ Github repos). Tres. - -- === Tres Seaver +1 540-429-0999 tsea...@palladion.com Palladion Software Excellence by Designhttp://palladion.com -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with undefined - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlEz7KQACgkQ+gerLs4ltQ6cCgCdGUokybOm4Fg7Ii6TOz1XNev6 qWYAnRDKKZ711gN0KSTJjDy7+6lNSJB4 =mzR/ -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Zope-CMF maillist - Zope-CMF@zope.org https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-cmf See https://bugs.launchpad.net/zope-cmf/ for bug reports and feature requests
[Zope-CMF] Move to github?
Hi. Stephan Richter has volunteered to do SVN to Github conversions for all Zope projects and has already completed all of Zope 2 core and some actively used projects like five.localsitemanager. Does anyone have objections if I ask him to convert the CMF packages? And if Tres reads this: Objections to moving PAS / PluginRegistry? Cheers, Hanno ___ Zope-CMF maillist - Zope-CMF@zope.org https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-cmf See https://bugs.launchpad.net/zope-cmf/ for bug reports and feature requests
Re: [Zope-CMF] Move to github?
Am 02.03.2013, 13:01 Uhr, schrieb Hanno Schlichting ha...@hannosch.eu: Hi. Stephan Richter has volunteered to do SVN to Github conversions for all Zope projects and has already completed all of Zope 2 core and some actively used projects like five.localsitemanager. Does anyone have objections if I ask him to convert the CMF packages? And if Tres reads this: Objections to moving PAS / PluginRegistry? Well, while I'm sure I'm going to struggle even more with git than I do already with svn, I suppose we'd better get it over with. I have one uncommitted change that I'll commit later today. Charlie -- Charlie Clark Managing Director Clark Consulting Research German Office Kronenstr. 27a Düsseldorf D- 40217 Tel: +49-211-600-3657 Mobile: +49-178-782-6226 ___ Zope-CMF maillist - Zope-CMF@zope.org https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-cmf See https://bugs.launchpad.net/zope-cmf/ for bug reports and feature requests
Re: [Zope-CMF] Move to github?
On 2 March 2013 16:18, yuppie y.2...@wcm-solutions.de wrote: Hi! Hanno Schlichting wrote: Stephan Richter has volunteered to do SVN to Github conversions for all Zope projects and has already completed all of Zope 2 core and some actively used projects like five.localsitemanager. Does anyone have objections if I ask him to convert the CMF packages? Yes. I have objections. I'd like to keep contributing to CMF. But I'm not going to support GitHub Inc. by using its services Seriously? You do realise it's: a) free (for us) b) decentralised I appreciate you may have to do the occasional 'push' to a .com domain, but you've got to be kidding... Martin ___ Zope-CMF maillist - Zope-CMF@zope.org https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-cmf See https://bugs.launchpad.net/zope-cmf/ for bug reports and feature requests
