Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev
Friends,first thing I want is to express my huge gratitude to have something like Zope and its community.I have read all the all the mail that has been stirred by "that" open letter.I agree very much and I am willing to contribute as much as I can that zope should grow 10x.I found two things missing in the discussion so far that are crucial to attain this goal:- documentationTo start using Zope doing something more than trivial is an incredibly frustrating thing. Hunting for the right piece of documentation is very very hard. The community is very helpful I agree readily. However asking it should be the last resort and being forced to use it as an important part of the developement effort is very cumbersome and time consuming. And does not really take the frustration out of the process.Bruce Eckels postings to this list show that even a developer of his statue is prone to the same effect.I am a seasoned programmer that started to deal with Zope exactly one year ago. It is only now that I learn where to look for what piece of information and to decide which one is relevant and which one is not.- translation supportInternationalisation is crucial. English in the user interface is just not tolerated in a non English speaking part of the world. It is 10 years ago something like that would have been acceptable. I am from Switzerland where we pride ourselves to be multilingual (6 Million inhabitants 4 major languages, English being the fifth). However nobody would think of having anything like English on a public website.There are a number of efforts towards translation support. However to have any of them to succeed it needs the support of ZC which just does not exist.Now I have to hurry getting breakfast(or I get into troubles)Robert
Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev
Agreed completely on both of those points. There's double good news on both: 1) Someone plans to do something about it. 2) Both are with community involvement. On documentation, someone in the community has committed to taking over the Documentation page on zope.org and finally organizing the myriad of useful, but unlocatable, doc resources out there. The second is pretty exciting as well. I saw a presentation in Paris by Juan David Palomar, of Localizer fame. (The presentation is now up at http://estce.act.uji.es:9673/localizer). The presentation impressed me on the need to get someone into the core of Zope that knows all these details, but also convinced me that the Zope3 effort needs to anticipate the needs of i18n and l10n. I spoke with the guys here doing the extreme programming session on Zope3, and they agreed. To say it again: 1) I think the world of Zope needs to grow 10x in the next year. 2) ZC can't do it, and much of the action in Zope is non-U.S., particularly Europe. 3) Thus, Zope needs a strong, competitive internationalization story. ZBabel and Localizer are good starts, but as jdavid says, both should be thought of as non-core projects that start influencing the core step-by-step. --Paul Robert Rottermann wrote: Friends, first thing I want is to express my huge gratitude to have something like Zope and its community. I have read all the all the mail that has been stirred by that open letter. I agree very much and I am willing to contribute as much as I can that zope should grow 10x. I found two things missing in the discussion so far that are crucial to attain this goal: - documentation To start using Zope doing something more than trivial is an incredibly frustrating thing. Hunting for the right piece of documentation is very very hard. The community is very helpful I agree readily. However asking it should be the last resort and being forced to use it as an important part of the developement effort is very cumbersome and time consuming. And does not really take the frustration out of the process. Bruce Eckels postings to this list show that even a developer of his statue is prone to the same effect. I am a seasoned programmer that started to deal with Zope exactly one year ago. It is only now that I learn where to look for what piece of information and to decide which one is relevant and which one is not. - translation support Internationalisation is crucial. English in the user interface is just not tolerated in a non English speaking part of the world. It is 10 years ago something like that would have been acceptable. I am from Switzerland where we pride ourselves to be multilingual (6 Million inhabitants 4 major languages, English being the fifth). However nobody would think of having anything like English on a public website. There are a number of efforts towards translation support. However to have any of them to succeed it needs the support of ZC which just does not exist. Now I have to hurry getting breakfast (or I get into troubles) Robert ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev
Hi! This is a totally different business model than the one Zope Corp. is using right now, but it might help refinancing the overhead a good community needs to have ... Would it have to be done by ZC? No, of course not. And there could be more than one of course (though we'd need a Zope Standards Base like the LSB then ;-)) Joachim ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev
The second is pretty exciting as well. I saw a presentation in Paris by Juan David Palomar, of Localizer fame. (The presentation is now up at http://estce.act.uji.es:9673/localizer). The presentation impressed me on the need to get someone into the core of Zope that knows all these details, but also convinced me that the Zope3 effort needs to anticipate the needs of i18n and l10n. ZBabel and Localizer are good starts, but as jdavid says, both should be thought of as non-core projects that start influencing the core step-by-step. Hi! I fully agree that ZBabel and Localizer don't have to be core projects right now. But the core must be made fit for i18n to make sure that we don't have to patch things like the user folder implementation or the Help! button in the code. In Zopw 2.5, there still seem to be hot spots to fix with regard to i18n. The next step would be to agree on ONE syntax for use in Python, ZPT, and DTML (not necessarly the same for each, but not more than ONE way for each). So there can be two or more implementations of internationalization to choose from, but Product maintainers do not have to provide two or more sets of DTML/ZPT files. BTW, it is not too hard to make ZBabel accept Localizer-style tags (which I already implemented in a CVS branch) and vice versa. The remaining difference between ZBabel and Localizer is a rather political one: We, the ZBabel team, are for consequent late binding of translations. That means that we are against having multiple sets of properties for languages. There will only be one set of properties, e.g. in English, and then the BabelTower is used to translate them. This is for non-content things. For content, we prefer the generic approach of ZBabel objects, that actually is able to internationalize everything from images to CMF news (at least in theory). The concept could be extended to have real content negotiation support for Zope. I tried to outline that a bit in my comments at http://dev.zope.org/Wikis/DevSite/Projects/ComponentArchitecture/ExplicitNam espaceControlInURLs, which seems to be too hidden to be read. I envision a Zope server to be able to return a content object (e.g. an image) in a variety of supported formats and versions, just by setting the browser content negotiation settings right or choosing an appropriate URL. E.g., a browser that can display png images should get them where appropriate, and somebody who doesn't have MS Word installed should get a PDF version of a document instead, etc. etc. (same with language versions). Joachim ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev
- Original Message - From: Joachim Werner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Paul Everitt [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Robert Rottermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 08:22 Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev The second is pretty exciting as well. I saw a presentation in Paris by Juan David Palomar, of Localizer fame. (The presentation is now up at http://estce.act.uji.es:9673/localizer). The presentation impressed me on the need to get someone into the core of Zope that knows all these details, but also convinced me that the Zope3 effort needs to anticipate the needs of i18n and l10n. ZBabel and Localizer are good starts, but as jdavid says, both should be thought of as non-core projects that start influencing the core step-by-step. Hi! I fully agree that ZBabel and Localizer don't have to be core projects right now. But the core must be made fit for i18n to make sure that we don't have to patch things like the user folder implementation or the Help! button in the code. In Zopw 2.5, there still seem to be hot spots to fix with regard to i18n. Of course there are hot spots. I have asked multiple times for help on the mailing lists and the Eurozope site to identify such related hot spots. Also I had expect some input of the community regarding at unicode support inside Zope. But there has been no feedback. It looks like no one needs unicode support in Zope ?! :-) Anyway, as a first step Zope 2.5 provides full unicode support for the ZCatalog. I would like to see some volunteers that could help to set up a list of requirements (the list is almost there on the Eurozope site I think) and possible solutions that could be integrated into the Zope core. Referring to the open letter to zope-dev I could also charge the community for zero feedback. But this is not the place and time for flamewars. Instead we should bundle the power of ZC and the community. The opening of the CVS is a good starting point but I would like to see more people contributing. Cheers, Andreas ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev
Of course there are hot spots. I have asked multiple times for help on the mailing lists and the Eurozope site to identify such related hot spots. Also I had expect some input of the community regarding at unicode support inside Zope. But there has been no feedback. It looks like no one needs unicode support in Zope ?! :-) Anyway, as a first step Zope 2.5 provides full unicode support for the ZCatalog. I would like to see some volunteers that could help to set up a list of requirements (the list is almost there on the Eurozope site I think) and possible solutions that could be integrated into the Zope core. Referring to the open letter to zope-dev I could also charge the community for zero feedback. But this is not the place and time for flamewars. Instead we should bundle the power of ZC and the community. The opening of the CVS is a good starting point but I would like to see more people contributing. I didn't want to blame anybody. BTW: I have already mentioned the two areas Help! button and acl_user add screen a couple of times. These seem to be the two that really are not translateable via DTML. Another issue might be the system messages. In general, if the error handling in general (including the authentication errors that are not curently customizable without diving into the code) is revamped in Zope 3.0 (which I hope), all error messages should be made translateable one way or the other. But of course translations also have their limits. Yesterday I was asked by a collegue whether we should also translate the names of the permissions and roles ... I said Maybe not ... ;-) Regarding the unicode support, everything works flawlessly without as long as one just needs German and English. That's why I don't have too much expertise about unicode. Joachim ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
core i18n support (was [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev)
Andreas, sorry if I have not reacted to a questions for assistance in the realm of i18n. I must have missed them. I rarely go to EuroZope since this site seems badly maintained. However I really would like to help with the internationalization of Zope since most of what we do here a my company must be multilingual. I do have considerable experience making programs translatable and I did a multilanguage CMF (with which I never was really happy) Some 6 Months ago I started to collect what is there regarding i18n and Zope. I did get a sizable number of answers. However there where two rather unfortunate tendencies: - multiple, different and incompatible attempts from our side - missing involvement and therefore no shepherding from ZC's side If, as Paul assures, the second point is about to be rectified it might be now the time to do a second such compilation and then start doing it. Robert - Original Message - From: Andreas Jung [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Joachim Werner [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Paul Everitt [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Robert Rottermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 2:50 PM Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev - Original Message - From: Joachim Werner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Paul Everitt [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Robert Rottermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 08:22 Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev The second is pretty exciting as well. I saw a presentation in Paris by Juan David Palomar, of Localizer fame. (The presentation is now up at http://estce.act.uji.es:9673/localizer). The presentation impressed me on the need to get someone into the core of Zope that knows all these details, but also convinced me that the Zope3 effort needs to anticipate the needs of i18n and l10n. ZBabel and Localizer are good starts, but as jdavid says, both should be thought of as non-core projects that start influencing the core step-by-step. Hi! I fully agree that ZBabel and Localizer don't have to be core projects right now. But the core must be made fit for i18n to make sure that we don't have to patch things like the user folder implementation or the Help! button in the code. In Zopw 2.5, there still seem to be hot spots to fix with regard to i18n. Of course there are hot spots. I have asked multiple times for help on the mailing lists and the Eurozope site to identify such related hot spots. Also I had expect some input of the community regarding at unicode support inside Zope. But there has been no feedback. It looks like no one needs unicode support in Zope ?! :-) Anyway, as a first step Zope 2.5 provides full unicode support for the ZCatalog. I would like to see some volunteers that could help to set up a list of requirements (the list is almost there on the Eurozope site I think) and possible solutions that could be integrated into the Zope core. Referring to the open letter to zope-dev I could also charge the community for zero feedback. But this is not the place and time for flamewars. Instead we should bundle the power of ZC and the community. The opening of the CVS is a good starting point but I would like to see more people contributing. Cheers, Andreas ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] FileStorage index size optimizaion (Re: FileStorage patch)
Thanks Chris,
Important note:
To get the benefit of this, you have to remove your old index.
FileStorage uses an index object that it pickles to it's
index file when you save the index (normal shutdown or pack).
If FileStorage reads the old index from the index file, the index
will have the old type (aka type({}) ;). To get the FileStorage
to use the new BTree-based index implementation, you need to
get it to build a new index by starting without an index file
or packing.
Jim
Chris Withers wrote:
emf wrote:
As I currently run 30-60 storage servers on a machine, I would be very
interested in testing out such a patch, if you'd be willing to send it
along.
It's in CVS, just check out the appropriate branch:
Jim Fulton wrote:
OK, I made a CVS branch, BTreeFSIndex-branch (made from the Zope-2_4-branch),
for just the BTrees and ZODB directories. If you update to that branch
you should get my experimental changes. The BTrees package has a new
extension, _fsBTrees that has 2-char to 6-char BTree types.
The ZODB fsIndex.py provides a FileStorage index based on this BTree.
You should get a memory consumption of only a little more than 8 bytes
per object. Note that the file size is limited to about 256 terabytes.
Nothing is free. :)
cheers,
Chris
PS: Still haven't managed to get the machine resurrected :-(
--
Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered!
CTO (888) 344-4332http://www.python.org
Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org
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[Zope-dev] Regarding translation of Zope
I've been trying to get updated and maybe even involved in the efforts take make Zope translatable, but failed. Are there such an effort going on seriously or have it died? The ZIP list is totally dead at least... I have some knowledge about the area since earlier work with creating easily translatable software, and I need a swedish version of Zope, so I'd like to help. ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev
If anyone has seen how open source works, there is usually a strong core team - like the ZC folks- who provide direction to the project. There are also dozens if not hundreds of enthusiastic folks who are less involved but contribute features, patches, bug fixes, documentation ... Despite the fact that Zope is one of the most attractive open source project around today there is no mass appeal to the project. The ZC folks are now struggling with issues that should be handled by folks less knowledgeable. In my humble opinion if the open source process had been allowed to progress unfettered by corporate greed Zope would even now have a state of maturity that it is not likely to reach even in 10 years of development at the current rate. --- Joachim Werner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi! To be honest i would be happy for Zope 3 not to be backwards compatible. Tidy it up, delete the unless code, dare i say it - refactor. Yes so my products will break, well half a days refactoring myself and i have a tidier more understandable project anyway. YES, we need a new start. Building on what we have now, of course, but doing things better without having to think about all the legacy stuff. When I see long-time Zope users like Tom Schwaller (who is a Linux legend in Germany) move on to something new like Webware for Python, that makes me wonder if Zope is starting to loose some of its momentum. Zope is a great product. And it becomes easier to sell it every day. But it could be so much better and more easy to use with just a little effort. Just to mention a few points: What we really need is A true vision of what Zope 3.0 is going to be Zope 2.x, together with the CMF, was sold bei DC/ZC as a content management product, which it isn't really. It is a good start for building one, but so many things that are mandatory for a CMS are missing in the out-of-the-box installation. Zope is a nearly perfect document storage, except for its server implementations for FTP (and partly also HTTP/Web-DAV) will not be too useful with major system load. Zope + Python are a dream team for web-based applications. I think that a single product can't be good at all these things. But I also think that Zope could emerge into a suite of near-perfect products for web-based internet and extranet solutions. I think Zope should be split up into components as soon as possible: - a database layer that includes alternatives to the ZODB (using products like DBObjects or the new stuff from 7x - a document management frontend to the database layer that can be used to manage all kinds of docs. Together with add-on products like the document library, Zope already does much of this, but it is not optimized for high loads yet, and products like Microsoft's Sharepoint Server are really coming close now. I wonder why people in the open source community seem to ignore what Microsoft is doing. I don't ask you to USE their software, but we should at least try to get inspired by the good ideas they have (or have collected from others who had them first). What we need in that part of Zope is high-performance real-time cataloging and searching, interoperability with FTP, WebDAV, maybe even SAMBA and NFS, automatic document conversion from Word/PDF to HTML etc. - an application development framework. Here, we need some more work done towards a real IDE (for Python and Zope). A lot of work has been done already by people like Riaan (who maintains Boa Constructor). Most of DTML (if not all) should go, and Python as the main programming language for Zope should be in the focus of documentation and training efforts. I spent more than a year with getting good at DMTL, just to find out in the end that ZClasses/DTML are really limiting and that developing in Python is almost as fast and much more effective. We need full integration between ZODB-code and filesystem code for that. We need ways of doing ZClass-like things with real Python code, and we need CVS-compatibility or something better within Zope. XML-RPC/SOAP/Webservices could be a strong part of this. - a real, complete, out-of-the-box CMS, based on the other three components. I know that there are at least a dozen good CMS BASED on Zope, but this seems to me to be a waste of resources. We only need one good system that can be maintained by many people. It needs a high-level plug-in architecture, so that people can contribute modules that can interact with each other. Currently, most Zope products other than the database adapters and user folder implementations are standalone products. Let's take Squishdot as an example. It is cool, yes. But it is not compatible with anything but itself. The CMF was a first try to build a standard Zope CMS, but it still far from being a good solution. It solves problems you don't have and takes away solutions plain Zope can offer,
[Zope-dev] Re: [Zip] Regarding translation of Zope
Hello Lennart, there are currently 2 prjects for zip: localizer and ZBabel. I prefer ZBabel for I18N . Currently a ZBabelMaster-Tower is being build with all necessary phrases of Zope, CMF and a lot of products. Regards Dirk Lennart Regebro schrieb: I've been trying to get updated and maybe even involved in the efforts take make Zope translatable, but failed. Are there such an effort going on seriously or have it died? The ZIP list is totally dead at least... I have some knowledge about the area since earlier work with creating easily translatable software, and I need a swedish version of Zope, so I'd like to help. ___ Zip mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zip ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev
Clark, where is the problem?? Yes ZC ties to make money out of Zope. And I hope they are successful. Don't you know that only those that have can give? If ZC does not make the money to cover their cost how can they give us Zope?? Open source is not only for fun. Also to make money! Robert - Original Message - From: Clark O'Brien [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Joachim Werner [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Andy Dawkins [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 6:47 PM Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev If anyone has seen how open source works, there is usually a strong core team - like the ZC folks- who provide direction to the project. There are also dozens if not hundreds of enthusiastic folks who are less involved but contribute features, patches, bug fixes, documentation ... Despite the fact that Zope is one of the most attractive open source project around today there is no mass appeal to the project. The ZC folks are now struggling with issues that should be handled by folks less knowledgeable. In my humble opinion if the open source process had been allowed to progress unfettered by corporate greed Zope would even now have a state of maturity that it is not likely to reach even in 10 years of development at the current rate. --- Joachim Werner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi! To be honest i would be happy for Zope 3 not to be backwards compatible. Tidy it up, delete the unless code, dare i say it - refactor. Yes so my products will break, well half a days refactoring myself and i have a tidier more understandable project anyway. YES, we need a new start. Building on what we have now, of course, but doing things better without having to think about all the legacy stuff. When I see long-time Zope users like Tom Schwaller (who is a Linux legend in Germany) move on to something new like Webware for Python, that makes me wonder if Zope is starting to loose some of its momentum. Zope is a great product. And it becomes easier to sell it every day. But it could be so much better and more easy to use with just a little effort. Just to mention a few points: What we really need is A true vision of what Zope 3.0 is going to be Zope 2.x, together with the CMF, was sold bei DC/ZC as a content management product, which it isn't really. It is a good start for building one, but so many things that are mandatory for a CMS are missing in the out-of-the-box installation. Zope is a nearly perfect document storage, except for its server implementations for FTP (and partly also HTTP/Web-DAV) will not be too useful with major system load. Zope + Python are a dream team for web-based applications. I think that a single product can't be good at all these things. But I also think that Zope could emerge into a suite of near-perfect products for web-based internet and extranet solutions. I think Zope should be split up into components as soon as possible: - a database layer that includes alternatives to the ZODB (using products like DBObjects or the new stuff from 7x - a document management frontend to the database layer that can be used to manage all kinds of docs. Together with add-on products like the document library, Zope already does much of this, but it is not optimized for high loads yet, and products like Microsoft's Sharepoint Server are really coming close now. I wonder why people in the open source community seem to ignore what Microsoft is doing. I don't ask you to USE their software, but we should at least try to get inspired by the good ideas they have (or have collected from others who had them first). What we need in that part of Zope is high-performance real-time cataloging and searching, interoperability with FTP, WebDAV, maybe even SAMBA and NFS, automatic document conversion from Word/PDF to HTML etc. - an application development framework. Here, we need some more work done towards a real IDE (for Python and Zope). A lot of work has been done already by people like Riaan (who maintains Boa Constructor). Most of DTML (if not all) should go, and Python as the main programming language for Zope should be in the focus of documentation and training efforts. I spent more than a year with getting good at DMTL, just to find out in the end that ZClasses/DTML are really limiting and that developing in Python is almost as fast and much more effective. We need full integration between ZODB-code and filesystem code for that. We need ways of doing ZClass-like things with real Python code, and we need CVS-compatibility or something better within Zope. XML-RPC/SOAP/Webservices could be a strong part of this. - a real, complete, out-of-the-box CMS, based on the other three components. I know that there are at least a dozen good CMS BASED on Zope,
[Zope-dev] Scrollbar off the page in manage_workspace
Both in 2.4.3 and 2.5.0 b1, the scrollbar seems to be off the end of the page and the Wider and Narrower buttons don't work. For example, in 2.5.0 b1, editing http://localhost/index_html in the browser seems to work fine but the http://localhost/standard_template.pt doesn't. I'm using IE 6.0 but I believe I had this same problem with IE 5.5. Netscape 4.08 seems to work. Mozilla 0.9.5 kind of works meaning that at least the scrollbar is not off the page but the Wider and Narrower buttons don't work. Opera 6.0 works as well as Netscape 4.08 except I did notice it doesn't like it when you change the default preferences, i.e. no CSS, no top bar. Walter ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev
On Sat, 2001-12-01 at 06:02, Joachim Werner wrote: Hi! This is a totally different business model than the one Zope Corp. is using right now, but it might help refinancing the overhead a good community needs to have ... Would it have to be done by ZC? No, of course not. And there could be more than one of course (though we'd need a Zope Standards Base like the LSB then ;-)) See, that is where I'd see ZC's role in a Zope Distribution world. Theirs could be the standard base, with input from the community of course. Naturally, it would not prevent ZC from offering more-than-standard distributions. Bill ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev
Clark O'Brien wrote: In my humble opinion if the open source process had been allowed to progress unfettered by corporate greed Zope would even now have a state of maturity that it is not likely to reach even in 10 years of development at the current rate. Oh go back to your troll hole would ya? Chris ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] Open letters, hijacking and the like
Hi! Wow, this is the first time I have more zope-dev mails in my inbox than from the main list (and I'm very happy that all this stays on one list). What I have seen from ZC up til now seems like they disclose practically everything but their client base, ok and maybe plans for a commercial Zope product (I count two now that have been dropped, this does not include Zope itself). Efforts have been made to separate the geeks from the tie-fighters (.org/.com), but I can't see any negative side-effects for the development of Zope itself. Maybe not yet, but, and this goes out to Mr O'Brien: It needs two to tango. Fair enough. ZC knows that, and especially Paul Everitt has pointed out more than once the dedication that ZC has towards the community. I want to thank Zope Corporation for everything that's been done up til now. This is the kind of track I will stay on. I see this working. Whatever parts of Zope don't work as expected, I don't know in how far I could ever put blame about that on ZC. These guys are more open to new ideas, efforts from the community and mutual benefits than anyone else I have met (in my short life, ok granted). Akm's worries and complaints are legitimate (and he has already corrected his language), and I see people reacting _immediately_. What more can you expect? In my opinion it was just a contretemps that priorities in the User API were set differently than expected from someone who dedicates a hell of a lot of time to that field of development. My personal opinion is that ZC should give akm a CVS account and let him put some elaborate changes to the user api for 2.5, apparently he knows exactly what he's doing. Dude: Do it better and _then_ complain. ZC's not yo mama, feeding you software with a spoon. It looks like you're spilling it all, anyway. Take a look at the ZPL, take a look at the Public CVS, the Wikis, the fishbowls, the open-sourced literature, and then think again. Closure of code / internals is not an arguable point when it comes to Zope, that's just being paranoid. You are welcome to take from the community, you are welcome to contribute to the community, you are welcome to make money with Zope. It's all there. Closure of code is not what will separate the wheat from the chaff, business-wise. Couldn't-resisting-ly yours, Danny ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] Fully Zope-based Mailman Version
Hello everyone, I just had a look into Mailman again. The API seems to be very clear, even though I could not find any UML diagrams anywhere. However I found out that porting Mailman to Zope (as a Python Product) might be a very simple task. Due to the nature of the project, the implementation phase could be setup in a couple of independent steps: 1. Convert the HTML screens to Zope DTML and connect the functionality to Mailman. 2. Move storage of list and user info to the ZODB 3. Move archives to the ZODB. 4. Create a nice installer that can bind the latest Mailman release with Zope. I think a first alpha release could be produced in about 40-60 hours and the full-fledged Mailman Distribution beta in about 1.5 man-month (270 hours). In fact most of the API would not even need to change, since we just need to insert our modified API at specific places, such as database connectivity and saving processes. Later we could even provide a Mailman UserFolder and search functionality for the archive. For people that do not think that the ZODB is up to handling large archives, DBObjects could be used for transparent R2O mapping from PostGreSQL (or any other RDB). The reason I write is, because I wanted to know whether someone would be interested in helping with this project, that would start after mid-December... Help can be offered in terms of programming or financial support of course. Regards, Stephan -- Stephan Richter CBU - Physics and Chemistry Student Web2k - Web Design/Development Technical Project Management ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
