Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?!

[Andreas Jung]

--On Freitag, 7. Mai 2004 19:26 Uhr +0300 "Alex V. Koval" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

I just need to know if anybody else interested into better look of
zope.org
site? And how this could be done...
Basically by volunteering to help out with the one or the task.
See  how to participate.
-aj





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Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?!

[Alex V. Koval]

Hi,
On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 19:04:34 +0200, Maik Jablonski  
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Zope2 isn't  maintained very well anymore due to limited ressources(bug  
fixes, documentation, see mail from Andreas), but Zope3 isn'tproduction  
ready at all. So if you talk to people making the decisionsin the  
IT-business they say: "Zope2 seems to be a dead horse, Zope3is just a  
child which learns to run...
Agree. Here is my point of view, as 'site manager'. We are creating
small sites for end-users, and we try to use Zope in many cases,  
recommending
this platform to end users.

Many customers refuse to use Zope because of one simple reason: they look  
at
http://www.zope.org web site, and then get back to us asking us how we
could recommend this product. In my opinion the most important fixes to
web site are:

 - Web site (zope.org) is very slow, and contains outdated documentation,
   links. Not well organized. Does not look professional way.I have no idea
   why zope.org site is slow and dying, but if it is because
   hardware or any kind of misconfiguration problem it must be fixed  
a.s.a.p.
   Just tried to open home page of http://www.zope.org - my Opera shows 1  
min 11 sec
   to load. (compare, www.php.org loads in 5 seconds). This makes our  
customers
   to make false decision that Zope is a way too slow. Most of customers
   refused to work with Zope because they tell: "all sites we looked at  
seems
   to be really slow".

 - Look at "Zope powered  
sites":http://www.zope.org/Resources/ZopePowered/. At first
   4 sites are not enought to convience any commercial customer. Even total
   of 11 links found on the page is not enought. I suggest to have "submit  
a site"
   form on this page so end users will submit their sites URLs and the  
list will be
   growing. Inactive sites should be removed after some time.

 - I do not understand the link to "Zope CMF" which leads me to  
http://cmf.zope.org/
   and where I read "ATTENTION! ... Please don't add new content here...".  
What this
   site is about, if it should not be used. Is Zope CMF dead? I see it is  
not, but
   this link makes me confused.

 - "Zope HowTos" contain all documents made in 1999. Most of people  
(including me)
will never read such old documents because most probably many things  
described
there are outdated.

 - "Zope Development Guide" full of comments since 2002. This should be  
refactored
   once a month, at least once a 3 months (I've seen the effort to rewrite  
ZDG
   has been started).

 - Bug tracking system (issue tracker) is not very comfortable to use.  
Better to use
   bugzilla, foxbugs, even 'trac' project will be a way much better and  
easier
   to use. And intruducing a better bug tracking could lead to better and  
faster
   bug resolution.

So, I think zope.org needs good refactoring, but it seems there are no  
single
person working on the site constantly, only from time to time (like plone  
integration event). Does anyone have any suggestions how this could be  
fixed?

I can try to help, but as you have probably noticed I am not native  
English speaker, so my help with editing texts will not be very useful.  
But we can
try to find out the problem with hardware/software setup of zope.org to  
find
out why its slow. Possible we can install bugzilla or some other thing.

I just need to know if anybody else interested into better look of zope.org
site? And how this could be done...
--
Alex V. Koval
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Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

[Dieter Maurer]

Paul Winkler wrote at 2004-4-26 17:45 -0400:
>On Mon, Apr 26, 2004 at 07:47:39PM +0200, Dieter Maurer wrote:
>> Our minimal tool usage is probably: "Actions", "Membership",
>> "Skins", "Types", "Workflow".
>
>I'm curious... do you use these with sites that are not
>in any other way based on CMFCore/CMFDefault ?

Yes.

-- 
Dieter

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[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

[Simon Michael]

+1

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Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

[Paul Winkler]

On Mon, Apr 26, 2004 at 07:47:39PM +0200, Dieter Maurer wrote:
> Our minimal tool usage is probably: "Actions", "Membership",
> "Skins", "Types", "Workflow".

I'm curious... do you use these with sites that are not
in any other way based on CMFCore/CMFDefault ?

-- 

Paul Winkler
http://www.slinkp.com
Look! Up in the sky! It's !
(random hero from isometric.spaceninja.com)

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Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

[Dieter Maurer]

Tres Seaver wrote at 2004-4-26 11:46 -0400:
>Martijn Faassen wrote:
>> Dieter Maurer wrote:
> ...
>>>   We use "SkinsTool", "ActionsTool" and "DCWorkflow" a lot,
>>>   "MembershipTool" sometimes and most other tools not at all.
>> 
>> 
>> Okay, point taken. :)
>> 
>> How much do the tools listed interdepend on each other?
>
>See the attached file.
> ...
> ... longer list than written above ...

This happens when I write from memory, sorry!

We also use "portal_types" regularly.


When you do not use the full functionality from the
MembershipTool, you may not need the MemberDataTool nor
the RegistrationTool.

Our minimal tool usage is probably: "Actions", "Membership",
"Skins", "Types", "Workflow".


-- 
Dieter

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[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

[Tres Seaver]

Martijn Faassen wrote:
Dieter Maurer wrote:

Martijn Faassen wrote at 2004-4-24 22:49 +0200:

...
In practice right now the picture is 'Use all of the CMF or none of it'.


No, not really...

  We use "SkinsTool", "ActionsTool" and "DCWorkflow" a lot,
  "MembershipTool" sometimes and most other tools not at all.


Okay, point taken. :)

How much do the tools listed interdepend on each other?
See the attached file.

Tres.
--
===
Tres Seaver[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Zope Corporation  "Zope Dealers"   http://www.zope.com
[/home/tseaver/projects/CMF/CMF-1.4-head/CMFCore]
$ grep getToolByName Action*.py
ActionInformation.py:from utils import getToolByName
ActionInformation.py:membership = getToolByName(tool, 'portal_membership')

# uses 'portal_membership' to compute whether the user is anonymous, and
#   to look up the user's ID.
# uses 'Expression' class heavily;   Expression also depends on
#   'portal_membership'.

[/home/tseaver/projects/CMF/CMF-1.4-head/CMFCore]
$ grep getToolByName Skins*.py
SkinsTool.py:from utils import UniqueObject, getToolByName, _dtmldir
SkinsTool.py:pm = getToolByName(self, 'portal_membership')
SkinsTool.py:pu = getToolByName(self, 'portal_url')

#  Uses 'portal_membership' to look up member skin prefs
#  Uses 'portal_url' to compute the path of the site object, in order to set
#the path on the skin cookie.

[/home/tseaver/projects/CMF/CMF-1.4-head/CMFCore]
$ grep getToolByName FS*.py
FSObject.py:from utils import expandpath, getToolByName
FSObject.py:portal_skins = getToolByName(self,'portal_skins')

#  Uses 'portal_skins' to do customization.

[/home/tseaver/projects/CMF/CMF-1.4-head/CMFCore]
$ grep getToolByName Member*.py RegistrationTool.py
MemberDataTool.py:from utils import UniqueObject, getToolByName, _dtmldir
MemberDataTool.py:membertool   = getToolByName(self, 'portal_membership')
MemberDataTool.py:mtool   = getToolByName(self, 'portal_membership')
MemberDataTool.py:membertool= getToolByName(self, 'portal_membership')
MemberDataTool.py:membership = getToolByName(self, 'portal_membership')
MemberDataTool.py:registration = getToolByName(self, 'portal_registration', 
None)
MembershipTool.py:from utils import getToolByName, _dtmldir
MembershipTool.py:registration = getToolByName(self, 'portal_registration', 
None)
MembershipTool.py:md = getToolByName(parent, 'portal_memberdata')
MembershipTool.py:md = getToolByName( self, 'portal_memberdata' )
from utils import getToolByName
membership = getToolByName(self, 'portal_membership')
membership = getToolByName(self, 'portal_membership')

#   Membership, memberdata, and registration are self-contained.

[/home/tseaver/projects/CMF/CMF-1.4-head/CMFCore]
$ grep getToolByName Workflow*.py
WorkflowCore.py:from utils import getToolByName
WorkflowCore.py:wf = getToolByName(instance, 'portal_workflow', None)
WorkflowTool.py:from utils import getToolByName
WorkflowTool.py:types_tool = getToolByName( self, 'portal_types', None 
)WorkflowTool.py:pt = getToolByName(self, 'portal_types', None)

# Uses 'portal_types', *if present*, to compute list of type names, and to
#verify type-specific bindings.


[/home/tseaver/projects/CMF/CMF-1.4-head/CMFCore]
$ cd ../DCWorkflow
[/home/tseaver/projects/CMF/CMF-1.4-head/DCWorkflow]
$ grep getToolByName *.py
DCWorkflow.py:from Products.CMFCore.utils import getToolByName
DCWorkflow.py:catalog = getToolByName(self, 'portal_catalog')

# Uses 'portal_catalog' to build work lists.
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RE: [Zope3-dev] Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

[Tim Peters]

[Max M, tests a zip file of .pyd files in Zope3, on Windows]
> I finally got around to testing this, and it works *exactly* as I
> hoped. I downloaded Z3 from CVS, and Tim's zip file.
>
> I unpacked the zip file into the Z3 directory, and it started the
> first time.

Yippee!  That's what I expected, but it's always a pleasant surprise when
software works <0.8 wink>.

> I don't know about others, but I don't need anything more than this.
>
> If either Chris or Tim would put that structure up at a saner
> location, I will write a How-to about it.
>
> Basically I just need a web adress that stays current to use in the
> How-to, so that I could point to somewhere like:
>
> http://zope.org/Members/tim_one/z3builds
>
>
> Where they could get the latest zip file.

http://zope.org/Members/tim_one/Zope3-pyd.zip

is in place now.  I'll put up a similarly named one for Zope2 this afternoon
(EDT).  They'll be replaced from time to time (when Zope 2/3's C code
changes), but will retain theses names.


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[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

[Max M]

Joachim Werner wrote:

The problem of Zope 2 is - don't kill me for saying that - Plone. Plone 
and its foundations in CMF have created a large momentum around a 
terribly horrible code base. Believe me or not, almost everything gets 
more complicated with CMF/Plone than with plain Zope. Building a 
framework on top of a broken framework on top of an ageing framework 
that is hardly documented isn't a very good idea after all.


You are somewhat right. It's an absolute bitch to write Products for 
Plone. But it does shows what is actually needed for Zope to work as 
intended.

In plain Z2 You could write a lot of products, and they would all work 
fine on your site. But others could not easily download and use/try out 
the products.

What Plone really is a good example of, is the necessity of a practical 
reference implementation that all content types and tools can be tested 
up against.

It the light house that everything is steering towards. I believe that's 
the reason for it's succes.

It's hard to put a finger on exactly why it has become one. But 
obviously it has reached critical mass of being "good enough" for a lot 
of things. It is also flexible enough to be changed beyond recognition.

So both novice users and developers can use it with a lot of succes.

A short list of things that I think makes it an end user succes (even 
advanced developers are end users of others products):

The skin

Notably main_template.pt & plone.css. It is absolute paramount to have a 
flexible template/styleguide to write up against. It has to be pretty 
enough to be used in production site out of the box, and easy to change.

The CMS' skin apparently wasn't good enough.

A site can be layed ot in umpteen ways, but the Plone guys has said 
"this is how we think it should look and function", and put a working 
example out there. Apparently that has been a very succesfull strategy.

There is also several layers at which it can be changed. From 
stylesheets to programming. So it can look completely different. But 
ther reference is allways there as a guide.

Installation

It is easy to install and try out new products, and they all work 
together, and all use the same skin. So if you install a new product it 
automatically has the look and feel of your site. Even though the site 
is heavily skinned.

Development process
---
Quick and non-bureaucratic. The Plone developers are pretty open for 
suggestions, and hang out on irc and maillists.

There is a shared repository (the collective) for 3'rd party products. 
Which gives a good sense of comunity



There is a lot of stuff that could be different in Plone, but on a basic 
level they got the right solution for making it possible to do 
distributed development of products that can still work together.



regards Max M

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[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

[Max M]

Dieter Maurer wrote:

Lennart Regebro wrote at 2004-4-23 10:57 +0200:

But ah well, what is done is done. Too late to change the past now. :-0
There is no need to change the past.
You can start using "CMFCore" profitable in the future :-)
I also disliked the cmf concept, until I actually started using it 
seriously.

regards Max M

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Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

[Dieter Maurer]

Martijn Faassen wrote at 2004-4-21 19:42 +0200:
>Stephan Richter wrote:
>
>> Nobody is willing to contribute. ZC agreed to change zope.org to Plone so more 
>> community members can contribute. But noone has stepped up; that's very sad.
>
>I believe part of the blockage is because contributors have to sign far 
>more than just a simple CVS contributor's agreement. This bureaucracy is 
>not helpful.

+1

-- 
Dieter

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Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

[Dieter Maurer]

Jim Fulton wrote at 2004-4-21 11:39 -0400:
>Andreas Jung wrote:
>> ...
>> I am sure that more are willing to contribute more 
>> than at the moment.
>
>Great! Where are they?

I, for example, would but I am scared away by the required
promise to defend ZC against any potential patent claim related
to my checkins.
As in the US almost any triviality seems to be patentable,
I consider this too big a risk...


-- 
Dieter

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[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

[Simon Michael]

Casey Duncan wrote:
On a bright note, I think zopewiki.org could change that. It *greatly*
lowers the bar on contributing
That is exactly the intent. We have needed this since the days of the ZDP.

> I see no reason why it being or not being on Zope.org is relevant. Its a
> social thing: Simon decided to do something and had the software,
Not *just* social. I would say there seem to be 
social/structural/technical/perceptual reasons why such a thing simply 
cannot exist at ZC-managed zope.org right now. So, while zope.org would 
be the ideal url (and I tried to nudge zope.org in this direction for 
years without coming across as a zealot) I think there are actually some 
advantages to having a slightly separate docs site. More modular, scales 
better. Of course the more integration and interlinking the better.

Constructively-intended zope.org criticism: zope.org is the zope 
community's biggest documentation asset. And yet at this point it is 
indeed also a big fat piano sitting on the windpipe of zope 
documentation, and hence the zope community itself.

This is despite the best of intentions on all sides. To say (as Stephan 
has) that it's due to lack of volunteers is wrong. Many of us have 
tried. Perhaps ZC expects more from a volunteer than is realistic. 
Compare with other successful successful open source projects.

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[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?!

[Simon Michael]

What a great discussion.

I'm not sure I can catch up and make a single coherent reply, so I'll 
just drop this into the stew right here: I think Zope 3 is firmly on the 
right track. At the same time let us not forget the ideas around
http://www.dreamsongs.com/WorseIsBetter.html .

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Re: [Zope3-dev] RE: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

[Jim Fulton]

Tim Peters wrote:
[Tim Peters]

...
No way to tell without trying.  I don't know whether you're
building Zope2 or Zope3, but since this is the zope-dev list I
assume the former.  Try
   http://zope.org/Members/tim_one/Zope2-20040422.zip/file_view

and let us know what happens!  As the comment there says, it's just
".pyd files from Zope2 HEAD, compiled with MSVC 6".  This is from
an inplace ("setup.py build_ext -i") build on Windows, from a
current Zope HEAD checkout.


FYI, there's a similar zip file now containing the same kind of thing for a
current Zope3 checkout (s/Zope2/Zope3/ in the URL).
If this is good enough for people trying to work from CVS on Windows, let me
know and I'll update them from time to time, and maybe move them to a saner
location.  If it's not good enough, sorry, but I don't anticipate having
enough time to do more than this (which is just a trivial zip+upload step
beyond the builds I have to do anyway).
Thanks Tim.

Jim

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RE: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

[Tim Peters]

[Tim Peters]
> ...
> No way to tell without trying.  I don't know whether you're
> building Zope2 or Zope3, but since this is the zope-dev list I
> assume the former.  Try
>
> http://zope.org/Members/tim_one/Zope2-20040422.zip/file_view
>
> and let us know what happens!  As the comment there says, it's just
> ".pyd files from Zope2 HEAD, compiled with MSVC 6".  This is from
> an inplace ("setup.py build_ext -i") build on Windows, from a
> current Zope HEAD checkout.

FYI, there's a similar zip file now containing the same kind of thing for a
current Zope3 checkout (s/Zope2/Zope3/ in the URL).

If this is good enough for people trying to work from CVS on Windows, let me
know and I'll update them from time to time, and maybe move them to a saner
location.  If it's not good enough, sorry, but I don't anticipate having
enough time to do more than this (which is just a trivial zip+upload step
beyond the builds I have to do anyway).


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RE: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

[Tim Peters]

[Max M]
> Well, yeah. I installed cygwin and all the devolpment tools. About 800
> Megs. I could have sorted it, but I wouldn't risk missing libraries,
> tools etc. and harddisk is cheap.

Same here (although my old laptop doesn't have enough disk space remaining
to download the whole thing).

> Python compiled fine, both with and without "./configure
> --with-threads" Z3 also compiled without a hickup.

Python 2.3.3 comes with current Cygwin, so there shouldn't be a need to
build Python (or maybe there is?  I don't know; the one that comes with
Cygwin has threads enabled already:

$ python
Python 2.3.3 (#1, Dec 30 2003, 08:29:25)
[GCC 3.3.1 (cygming special)] on cygwin
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> import thread
>>> def f():
...print 'hi!'
...
>>> thread.start_new_thread(f, ())
10852896
>>> hi!

).

I didn't have any problems compiling anything, I hit instant disasters
whenever code tried to spawn a new process ("mystery errors" under WinXP
Pro, segfault and system freeze under Win98SE).

> But when I tried to go to "http://localhost:8080"; or
> "http://localhost:8080/manage"; I just got a  "A system error
> occurred." message, and a the following log entry:
>
> 2004-04-22T08:47:13 ERROR root PageTemplateFile: Error in template:
> Compilation failed
> exceptions.SyntaxError: invalid syntax (, line 1)
>
> Which is sort of non-helpfull.

Sorry, no clues here.  Perhaps someone else knows how to get Cygwin to work.

...

>> What exactly is needed?  I routinely compile Zope2 and Zope3 HEAD on
>> Windows, using MSVC 6.  I can't make time to set up a fancy snapshot
>> procedure, but if all people want is (e.g.) a zip file containing
>> the .pyd files, uploading those once a week wouldn't be a
>> significant time sink.

> AS far as I can see that should be enough. If the compiled files, in
> their directory structure, could just be dropped on top of the python
> structure from cvs/subversion I expect that would be enough?

No way to tell without trying.  I don't know whether you're building Zope2
or Zope3, but since this is the zope-dev list I assume the former.  Try

http://zope.org/Members/tim_one/Zope2-20040422.zip/file_view

and let us know what happens!  As the comment there says, it's just ".pyd
files from Zope2 HEAD, compiled with MSVC 6".  This is from an inplace
("setup.py build_ext -i") build on Windows, from a current Zope HEAD
checkout.

> As far as I can see from a quick manual scan of the directory
> structure that's how the code is structured now?
>
> The compiled files are not under version control, and so would not be
> overwritten by updating from cvs/subversion.

That's correct.


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[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?!

[Martijn Faassen]

Jim Fulton wrote:
Martijn Faassen wrote:

Jim Fulton wrote:

I'm surprised to read this. Could you be more specific about your 
concerns?


Did you read Andreas Jung's mail? He was pretty specific, but I had to 
hunt around as in my mailreader his reply had broken the thread.


I was responding to Philipp, not Andreas.

Yeah, but I figured you might not have seen Andreas's mail as I had some 
trouble finding it myself, so I was trying to be helpful. :)

Regards,

Martijn

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[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?!

[Philipp von Weitershausen]

Jim Fulton wrote:
2. Especially Andreas expressed his worries about the current release 
policy in Zope 2 and its future regarding maintainance and support. I 
have to say that I share some of his skepticism regarding Zope 2. I 
personally have never fully understood ZC's reasons for the release 
roadmap as it is. I might not see the big picture, but I know I would 
have done it differently. I've always tried to make that clear in the 
past.
I'm surprised to read this. Could you be more specific about your concerns?
I should have said "the release roadmap as it WAS". I was very skeptical 
about the original plans to make Zope3 backward compatible. I am still 
very skeptical about the ability to add conversion scripts. They would 
be incredibly tedious painful to write and I personally would rather 
migrate code manually than trust a script. After all, the paradigms have 
changed a lot.

I see it as realistic as Stephan. There is no sane migration to Zope3 
than the one of refactoring code. Now, in order for that to happen, we 
need the CA in Zope2, so people can start asap. My only criticism has 
been and still is that the CA hasn't been introduced to Zope2 earlier. 
Now, I know that a) the CA has been refactored a lot since its invention 
(and IMO only for the good) and b) there was a lack of resources to do 
that actual integration. That's why I've never declared anyone guilty 
for it (which is why you may be surprised by this).

It sure would have been nice if Gary had shared his experience with 
FrankenZope a little earlier. I remember Martijn being quite eager to 
experiment with it, too. But that's the only constructive criticism I have.

Philipp

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[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

[Max M]

Tim Peters wrote:

[Max M]

Or perhaps an automated nightly Windows build.
[Stephan Richter]

We have talked about it many times before, but simply lack the
bandwidth. Maybe you could provide this for Cygwin?
[Max M]

Argh ... that wasn't fair.

Ok I will try and find some time to look into it.
A problem is that every platform has its own unique bag of miserable quirks.
Well, yeah. I installed cygwin and all the devolpment tools. About 800 
Megs. I could have sorted it, but I wouldn't risk missing libraries, 
tools etc. and harddisk is cheap.

Python compiled fine, both with and without "./configure --with-threads" 
Z3 also compiled without a hickup.

But when I tried to go to "http://localhost:8080"; or 
"http://localhost:8080/manage"; I just got a  "A system error occurred." 
message, and a the following log entry:

2004-04-22T08:47:13 ERROR root PageTemplateFile: Error in template: 
Compilation failed
exceptions.SyntaxError: invalid syntax (, line 1)

Which is sort of non-helpfull.


Maybe this is (still) relevant to building Zope under Cygwin, maybe not:
http://www.zope.org/Members/dgeorgieff/howto_zope_cvs_on_cygwin/index_html
I didn't need to do all of that to get it build.


What exactly is needed?  I routinely compile Zope2 and Zope3 HEAD on
Windows, using MSVC 6.  I can't make time to set up a fancy snapshot
procedure, but if all people want is (e.g.) a zip file containing the .pyd
files, uploading those once a week wouldn't be a significant time sink.
AS far as I can see that should be enough. If the compiled files, in 
their directory structure, could just be dropped on top of the python 
structure from cvs/subversion I expect that would be enough?

As far as I can see from a quick manual scan of the directory structure 
that's how the code is structured now?

The compiled files are not under version control, and so would not be 
overwritten by updating from cvs/subversion.

regards Max M

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[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?!

[Max M]

Chris Withers wrote:

Andre Meyer wrote:

With respect to CMS, Plone archetypes are too simplistic for complex 
data/document types and customisation takes too much effort.
totally agree...
I have the same experience.

They keep refactoring how a single small (and relatively uninterresting) 
subset of problems can be solved. In the meantime all the products 
depending on the framework are in a perpetual state of broke.

Furthermore they keep forking the codebase and giving it new names.

I have a few Plone Products, and while it takes a bit to get the 
skeleton set up correctly, it is never that part of the product 
development that takes the most time.

After the setup I can then enjoy that I don't have to fight the 
constraints of a framework.

regards Max M

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Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

[Chris Withers]

Stephan Richter wrote:

Nobody is willing to contribute. ZC agreed to change zope.org to Plone so more 
community members can contribute. But noone has stepped up; that's very sad.
Sorry, but I think you'll find several people stepped up, and ZC slapped them in 
the face with a big fat legal document.

That's never a good way to encourage people to help...

Chris

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RE: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

[Sandor Palfy]

> Maybe this is (still) relevant to building Zope under Cygwin, 
> maybe not:
> 
>
http://www.zope.org/Members/dgeorgieff/howto_zope_cvs_on_cygwin/index_ht
ml

Python release23-maint and Zope 2.7 just builds fine on cygwin with the
usual ./configure, make, make install sequence.

Regards,
Sandor


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RE: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

[Tim Peters]

[Max M]
>>> Or perhaps an automated nightly Windows build.

[Stephan Richter]
>> We have talked about it many times before, but simply lack the
>> bandwidth. Maybe you could provide this for Cygwin?

[Max M]
> Argh ... that wasn't fair.
>
> Ok I will try and find some time to look into it.

A problem is that every platform has its own unique bag of miserable quirks.
Case in point:  before we released ZODB 3.3a3 last Friday (which is also the
ZODB in the current Zope2 and Zope3 CVS HEADs), I tried to run the ZODB/ZEO
test suite under Cygwin on WinXP Pro.  "Disaster" is a fair assessment --
every time the test framework tried to spawn a ZEO process, it died
instantly, with a Cygwin-specific message I didn't understand.  So you need
to be a real platform fan to get a "minority" platform to work; while I like
Cygwin well enough, I rarely use it, and don't have time or interest to
pursue it as a hobby.

Maybe this is (still) relevant to building Zope under Cygwin, maybe not:

http://www.zope.org/Members/dgeorgieff/howto_zope_cvs_on_cygwin/index_html


What exactly is needed?  I routinely compile Zope2 and Zope3 HEAD on
Windows, using MSVC 6.  I can't make time to set up a fancy snapshot
procedure, but if all people want is (e.g.) a zip file containing the .pyd
files, uploading those once a week wouldn't be a significant time sink.


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Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

[Lennart Regebro]

On Wed, Apr 21, 2004 at 10:41:27AM -0400, Casey Duncan wrote:
> I agree that bugs deserve more attention. We need to have more bug days.
> I meant to suggest a date last week, but I got diverted. How would
> people feel about next Thursday, April 29?

Stop feeling and do it! No, I can't join, because I'll be on my way to
Sweden that day. So, then have another bug day a couple of weeks later,
maybe I can join then. And so on, and so on...

Of course, my greatest contribution usually is closing bugs reports that are
really support questions, but hey, it's still squishes! :-)



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Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

[Lennart Regebro]

From: "Jim Fulton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Year checkins people
> 2002 7090 33
> 2003 5276 34
> 2004 1103 24 # First 3 1/2 months
>
> There is some decline, as one would expect in a mature
> product.

Also, I expect most people is like me. I only fix bugs if they bite me, and
I understand them OR if there is a bugday, and I understand them and I'm not
too stressed out at the office.

This means that we need more bugdays. A typical bugday squishes a whole
bunch of bugs. They bugs will be harder to squish the more bugdays we have,
since the easy one will be squished first, but no matter.




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[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

[Casey Duncan]

On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 20:36:29 +0200
Andreas Jung <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 
> 
> --On Mittwoch, 21. April 2004 10:41 Uhr -0400 Casey Duncan
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > On a bright note, I think zopewiki.org could change that. It
> > *greatly* lowers the bar on contributing substantive docs for Zope.
> > I would implore all of you (as in you, the reader of this message,
> > yes you!) to go there and write something, now! You know something
> > that has not been written down yet, so go write it down! You can
> > even do so anonymously.
> >
> 
> Yeah...just had a look a zopewiki.org it seems to be a great place. I 
> wonder why we were not
> able to built a such place there were it would belong to: zope.org?

I see no reason why it being or not being on Zope.org is relevant. Its a
social thing: Simon decided to do something and had the software,
bandwidth and hardware to do it. People have gravitated to it and it
looks like it has momentum. I see no downside, Darwin has spoken... ;^)

-Casey 


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Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

[Andreas Jung]

--On Mittwoch, 21. April 2004 10:41 Uhr -0400 Casey Duncan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
On a bright note, I think zopewiki.org could change that. It *greatly*
lowers the bar on contributing substantive docs for Zope. I would
implore all of you (as in you, the reader of this message, yes you!) to
go there and write something, now! You know something that has not been
written down yet, so go write it down! You can even do so anonymously.
Yeah...just had a look a zopewiki.org it seems to be a great place. I 
wonder why we were not
able to built a such place there were it would belong to: zope.org?

Andreas

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Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

[Jamie Heilman]

Jim Fulton wrote:
> >Oh, and about Maik's comment that ZC is the bottleneck in Z2 dev--Jim,
> 
> I think it was Andreas

Ah, you're right, oh well apart from who said it...
 
> >you might not agree with Maik, but hidden security bugs over a year
> >old aren't something the rest of the community can do anything
> >about.
> 
> Are you suggesting that we hid them?  As soon as we found out about
> them, we mobilized the whole company to work on them.  This was a
> big deal that we put a lot of effort into over a fairly short time.
> How is this evidence that we were a bottleneck?

I think you're confusing the past with the present.  There is at least
1 hidden security bug thats been sitting in the queue for a year
*right now*.  I'm not talking about the stuff that was fixed in the
last audit.  As for why they are hidden, well thats, the [EMAIL PROTECTED]
collector that encourages it, and as ZC runs the collector that puts
the ball squarely in ZC's court.

-- 
Jamie Heilman http://audible.transient.net/~jamie/
"You came all this way, without saying squat, and now you're trying
 to tell me a '56 Chevy can beat a '47 Buick in a dead quarter mile?
 I liked you better when you weren't saying squat kid." -Buddy

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[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

[Jim Fulton]

Jamie Heilman wrote:
..

Oh, and about Maik's comment that ZC is the bottleneck in Z2 dev--Jim,
I think it was Andreas

you might not agree with Maik, but hidden security bugs over a year old
aren't something the rest of the community can do anything about.
Are you suggesting that we hid them?  As soon as we found out about them,
we mobilized the whole company to work on them.  This was a big deal that we
put a lot of effort into over a fairly short time.  How is this evidence that
we were a bottleneck?
Jim

--
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Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com   http://www.zope.org
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[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?!

[Jim Fulton]

Martijn Faassen wrote:
Jim Fulton wrote:

I'm surprised to read this. Could you be more specific about your 
concerns?


Did you read Andreas Jung's mail? He was pretty specific, but I had to 
hunt around as in my mailreader his reply had broken the thread.
I was responding to Philipp, not Andreas.

Jim

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Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

[Martijn Faassen]

Casey Duncan wrote:
On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 11:36:31 +0200
Andreas Jung <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
- very few people are willing to contribute to documentation
 
On a bright note, I think zopewiki.org could change that. It *greatly*
lowers the bar on contributing substantive docs for Zope. I would
implore all of you (as in you, the reader of this message, yes you!) to
go there and write something, now! You know something that has not been
written down yet, so go write it down! You can even do so anonymously.
That's a great points. Wikis *can* definitely really speed up the 
documentation process. Of course wikis can also die, but the low bar 
towards contribution is really really helpful. Just take a look at 
www.wikipedia.org for an extremely impressive example of what is possible.

Regards,

Martijn

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Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

[Martijn Faassen]

Stephan Richter wrote:

Nobody is willing to contribute. ZC agreed to change zope.org to Plone so more 
community members can contribute. But noone has stepped up; that's very sad.
I believe part of the blockage is because contributors have to sign far 
more than just a simple CVS contributor's agreement. This bureaucracy is 
not helpful.

Regards,

Martijn

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Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

[Paul Winkler]

On Wed, Apr 21, 2004 at 10:41:27AM -0400, Casey Duncan wrote:
> I agree that bugs deserve more attention. We need to have more bug days.
> I meant to suggest a date last week, but I got diverted. How would
> people feel about next Thursday, April 29?

+1
  
-- 

Paul Winkler
http://www.slinkp.com

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Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?!

[Jim Fulton]

robert rottermann wrote:

> will not be able to participate

easily on the academic Zope3 train. The technic
freaks who modell Zope3 are usually not application
developers,  which have to build and run working


> applications for real human users.

That's both insulting and incorrect.  Many of the leaders
of the Zope 2 community are involved in Zope 3 and using it.
These people are application developers.
Jim,
we native german speakers tend to be much more direct and phrase dings 
more bluntly the you americans do.
In german I read Maik's statement as a strong opinion but never as an 
insult.

Since I am the one who asked Mike to speak up I would feel bad if it 
created any bad feelings.
Bad feeling don't last long with me. I couldn't be an open-source
developer if they did. :/
Jim

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Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

[Jamie Heilman]

Casey Duncan wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 11:36:31 +0200
> Andreas Jung <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > Some remarks from my side as a Zope2 core developer on this issue:
> > 
> > The Z2 community and development is currently at a bad point:
> > 
> >  - very few people are contributing to the Z2 in terms of new code and
> >  bug 
> > fixes
> > (see the tons of open bugs in the collector)
> 
> I agree that bugs deserve more attention. We need to have more bug days.
> I meant to suggest a date last week, but I got diverted. How would
> people feel about next Thursday, April 29?

Have a bug day, might as well.  The problem with bug days is that they
losing ground to the slow but steady trickle of new issues.  A
dedicated developer who camps on the Collector would help
tremendously.

Oh, and about Maik's comment that ZC is the bottleneck in Z2 dev--Jim,
you might not agree with Maik, but hidden security bugs over a year old
aren't something the rest of the community can do anything about.

-- 
Jamie Heilman http://audible.transient.net/~jamie/
"Paranoia is a disease unto itself, and may I add, the person standing
 next to you may not be who they appear to be, so take precaution."
-Sathington Willoughby

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[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?!

[Maik Jablonski]

Martin Kretschmar wrote:
> Maik Jablonski of the german speaking Zope Users Group
> DZUG issued a pretty bleak outlook for the future of
> Zope. What are your oppinions?

Hi to all,

I'm not able to respond to all mails in this thread due to a "trashed"
shoulder (very unlucky cyclocross-crash last week), but I'm feeling the
need to make some simple remarks.

1) Chris is right: Yes, I've had a bad day...;)

2) My initial mail wasn't intended for zope-dev. So I'm a little bit
suprised that it made it to this list. If anyone feels offended (esp. Jim),
I'm very sorry, but if I want to complain about Zope2/3 on this list, I
would use other words. The initial mail (written in german) was written in
a state of fear (not anger). The translation (and maybe my mail itself)
didn't transport my fear about the future of Zope very well I guess.

3) To say it clearly: I would have never started the "German Zope User
Group" two years ago if I were not totally convinced of Zope (the
technology & the community). Bringing up a community in Germany (with
several big conferences, etc.) was a lot of work (believe me), so I don't
feel as a usual "freerider who only complains but does not give something
back to the community". But my resources are limited as well, so I can't
take additional tasks as documentation, release-management, etc.pp... If
this means I'm not allowed to say anything critical about these points then
I'm very, very sorry making any remarks...

4) Stephan, you're right, I did not study Zope3 (and the zope3-dev-list)
very well. My initial approach to Zope3 ended with the impression: "huh,
complicated stuff, but I don't have time to work it out in the moment!"
Then I've talked to many people who said similar things about their first
experience with Zope3 (maybe I've talked to the wrong people, than this is
my fault, sorry again). So I came up with the impression: "yeah, Zope3 is
cool, but complicated (stated as 'academic' in my mail)!" (at least if you
don't have the time to work things out by diving into the source). And if
you run several mission critial applications you don't have time to look
into this kind of new stuff. But you're right, Stephan: If you want to stay
in technology business, you have to invent (read: improve by a complete
redesign) the wheel many times. So I don't think that Zope3 is useless for
the future of Zope.

5) But there's some kind of a bad impression in my mind (maybe it is without
any foundation, than all things are in best state): Zope2 isn't maintained
very well anymore due to limited ressources (bug fixes, documentation, see
mail from Andreas), but Zope3 isn't production ready at all. So if you talk
to people making the decisions in the IT-business they say: "Zope2 seems to
be a dead horse, Zope3 is just a child which learns to run... Let's settle
our business on more approved technologies like Java / Net (or even
PHP...;)). We can't wait anymore..." This kind of "frustrating" impression
made me writing the mail about the future of Zope, because I'm in love with
Zope and not Java, Net or PHP...

[[[6) Just a personal note to Stephan: You're right again about the
"quick&dirty" design of some of my products (esp. Epoz, I have simply no
knowledge about JavaScript at all (and I don't like it), but Epoz seems to
do a good job for many people until Kupu is finished). 

My job (read: strength) is custom-application-development (talking to
customers and reading their minds, developing prototypes to track down the
issues the customer meant and didn't told me and didn't dream of etc.pp.,
developing & securing & maintaing web-applications which need to work in an
environment with 20.000 students & 2000 office-workers etc.), not
"application-framework-design-nor-development", so my products are just
some "wired" by-products of my daily work. About MailBoxer: If you think
MailBoxer is just another "mailinglistmanager" (like mailman) you didn't
get the idea of it... MailBoxer is a lightweight mailinglist-framework (!,
yes I've done some kind of framework, it can be done better, but it solves
my problems this way) which is built on the power of Zope to achieve some
things you can hardly achieve with Mailman (at least I wasn't able to to).
So I've "reinvented" the wheel once more to solve some of my
application-needs...]]]

Hope this made things a little bit clearer... I didn't want to attack ZC /
Zope3-devs / the community or anyone else. I'm just fearing that we miss
the train for Zope2 AND Zope3 in the moment... if you don't think so, I'm
fine...:)

Keep zoped,

Maik






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[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

[Jim Fulton]

Andreas Jung wrote:
Some remarks from my side as a Zope2 core developer on this issue:

The Z2 community and development is currently at a bad point:

- very few people are contributing to the Z2 in terms of new code and 
bug fixes
   (see the tons of open bugs in the collector)
In the last year, 37 people make 4215 checkins to the Zope 2
repository.
This doesn't seem to shabby to me.

Here's the breakdown by year:

Year checkins people
2002 7090 33
2003 5276 34
2004 1103 24 # First 3 1/2 months
There is some decline, as one would expect in a mature
product.
These numbers don't include CMF and Plone.

I'd like to see a lot more contributions.  But this still looks
like a pretty healthy development community to me.

- very few people are willing to contribute to documentation
No one likes to write documentation. I think we're making some progress
in this area in Zope 3 that I think will feed back to Zope 2.
The reasons for this situation from my prospective:

- Lots of Z2 people are working now  on Plone projects. Plone currently 
attracts more people
   because the important and interesting projects are done there. Paul 
Everits goal to grow
   Zope by 10 times might happen through Plone, not through Zope itself
Is that bad?

- The Z2 development is badly managed. The 2.7 release has been delayed 
for one year or so.
You keep saying that, but you don't offer to help. We begged for
help with the Zope 2.7 release.  AFAIK, we got very little, so it fell
to us.
- ZC is currently the bottleneck for Z2. 
No, we're not. And it has nothing to do with how much time we spend on
releases. Any time someone wants to help with or lead the release process,
we'd be thrilled to support them in doing so. If the community wants more
frequent releases, they need to help. It sounds like people are trying out
amd giving feedback on the head. That's great! I'd really like to see 2.8 get
out soon.
...

- The zope.org community site is a mess. Lots of outstanding problems 
are not fixed, the performance
   of the site is more than poor (it takes ages to login, it takes ages 
to load pages),
   usability (e.g. when you perform a software release) is bad.
Yes, that's a bad situation.  We (meaning the Zope community) need to do
something about this. Sigh.
...

We need for Zope2

 - a better and open management for Z2 releases:
Please be specific.

Better in what way? Open in what way? In what way have we not been open?

...

> If ZC can not provide
the resources in terms
of time and manpower, the coordination and release management should 
be given
to the community. I am sure that more are willing to contribute more 
than at the moment.
Great! Where are they?  The community led the release of 2.6. I think
that worked pretty well.  We asked for, but didn't get volunteers for
the Zope 2.7 release.
If anyone wants to help with or lead the 2.8 release, I'd *love*
to hear from them.

- a clear statement from ZC to the future of Zope 2.
We've said many times, and I'll say again, that Zope 2 will be with us for some
time.  We won't stop working on Zope 2 until Zope 3 is done (meaning does
everything that Zope 2 does) and there is a clean migration path.
We don't know, at this point, what form that path will take. We just
haven't figured it out yet.
Our short term strategy is to narrow the gap between Zope 2 and Zope 3, by
having them share more and more software over time.  This is what the
Zope 2.8 and Zope 2.9 releases will be about, in addition to community-developed
enhancements, of course.
> Zope 2.8 and Zope
2.9 are considered
   as a migration path for Zope 3
Yes

> where the Z2 support should be dropped
after these releases
No. We've *never* said that. I fully expect Zope 2 releases after Zope 2.9.

...

From my own prospective as developer I would like to see that Z2
development over the next
two or three years continues because there is too much Z2 legacy code in 
the world
Of course. No one is suggesting that we stop development of Zope 2.

...

> To be
honest I doubt that large
custom applications can be migrated with a justifiable amount of time 
and money (just because
they are completely bound to Z2 components and its architecture).
I don't know. You may be right, but I don't think so. We'll have to wait
and see.
To clarify my standpoint: I am not an opponent of Zope3 but Zope 3 does 
not convince me
in the current stage and gives me little attraction for the projects I 
am working onit just can
not compete with Zope 2 if you are building large-scale systems at this 
time.
Absolutely!  Nor should it try to compete at this time.  If you want
the same level of functionality that's in Zope 2, then use Zope 2.
Zope 3 isn't there yet. OTOH, Zope 3 does have some advantages for some
applications. That's why people are building production apps with it now,
even though there isn't a production release.  That's why we're working
very hard to make a production-quality release of what we have now, even
though it 

Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?!

[Martin Kretschmar]

Hello,

> Jim,
>
> we native german speakers tend to be much more direct
> and phrase dings more bluntly the you americans do.
> In german I read Maik's statement as a strong opinion
> but never as an insult.
>
> Since I am the one who asked Mike to speak up I would
> feel bad if it created any bad feelings.
>
> Robert

Robert is 100% right! Mikes oppion contains no real
insults at all, not even really bad phrases, at least
not in the original german version. German insults look
quite different, and we tend to recognize them when we
read them.

In this sense I was somewhat careless in my instant
translation and I want to apologize for it.

Martin






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[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

[Max M]

Stephan Richter wrote:

On Wednesday 21 April 2004 10:40, Max M wrote:

Or perhaps an automated nightly Windows build.
We have talked about it many times before, but simply lack the bandwidth. 
Maybe you could provide this for Cygwin?
Argh ... that wasn't fair.

Ok I will try and find some time to look into it.

regards Max M

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[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?!

[Max M]

robert rottermann wrote:

> will not be able to participate

easily on the academic Zope3 train. The technic
freaks who modell Zope3 are usually not application
developers,  which have to build and run working
> applications for real human users.

That's both insulting and incorrect.  Many of the leaders
of the Zope 2 community are involved in Zope 3 and using it.
These people are application developers.
we native german speakers tend to be much more direct and phrase dings 
more bluntly the you americans do.
In german I read Maik's statement as a strong opinion but never as an 
insult.

Since I am the one who asked Mike to speak up I would feel bad if it 
created any bad feelings.
I would also like to point out that Maik did not post it here himself. 
It's an opinion directed to a group of people that most likely knows him 
and his context better than we do on this list.

There is a big difference in how you can talk about, and talk to, other 
people.

Sometimes you use harder language to emphasize a point. A language that 
you wouldn't normally use when talking to somebody. Generally there is 
nothing wrong with this, but seen out of context it can seem inapropriate.

regards Max M

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Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?!

[Martijn Faassen]

Jim Fulton wrote:
I'm surprised to read this. Could you be more specific about your concerns?
Did you read Andreas Jung's mail? He was pretty specific, but I had to 
hunt around as in my mailreader his reply had broken the thread.

Regards,

Martijn

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Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

[Terry Hancock]

On Wednesday 21 April 2004 09:40 am, Max M wrote:
> Stephan Richter wrote:
> > However, 
> > we are getting the first alpha out by the end of the month. Hopefully, by end 
> > of May we will have finished the X3.0 to-do list and will release the beta. 
> > At this point the API will freeze and application developers are encouraged 
> > to have look at it.

Well, I couldn't find the antecedent for that quote, but it's really good news!

I'm deeply embroiled in organizing for an upcoming space conference on
Memorial Day Weekend (May 27-31, http://www.isdc2004.org ), so I'm not
able to do *any* programming for about a month, but I will definitely be
checking X3.0 out in June. That's probably when I'll be available to look
at the Schema package and see if I can contribute usefully to it, as well.

Cheers,
Terry

--
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Anansi Spaceworks  http://www.anansispaceworks.com


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Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

[Stephan Richter]

On Wednesday 21 April 2004 10:40, Max M wrote:
> I normally don't develop in c. So I don't have Visual Studion installed.

You can also use cygwin.

> I have downloaded the milestones and tried them out. But then I read
> about this and that *geddon, and think "well guess I should wait for
> another version" before I try it again.

right.

> I quickly feel out of sync in Z3.

yes.

> If there was some way to have a Binary core that didn't change very
> often, and a Python only part that I could upload from cvs/subversion to
> be up to date, it would be much easier to use a few hours here and there
> to try out stuff in Z3.

There is little change in the C files. It is very rare.

> Or perhaps an automated nightly Windows build.

We have talked about it many times before, but simply lack the bandwidth. 
Maybe you could provide this for Cygwin?

Regards,
Stephan
-- 
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CBU Physics & Chemistry (B.S.) / Tufts Physics (Ph.D. student)
Web2k - Web Software Design, Development and Training

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Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?!

[robert rottermann]

> will not be able to participate

easily on the academic Zope3 train. The technic
freaks who modell Zope3 are usually not application
developers,  which have to build and run working
> applications for real human users.

That's both insulting and incorrect.  Many of the leaders
of the Zope 2 community are involved in Zope 3 and using it.
These people are application developers.
Jim,
we native german speakers tend to be much more direct and phrase dings 
more bluntly the you americans do.
In german I read Maik's statement as a strong opinion but never as an 
insult.

Since I am the one who asked Mike to speak up I would feel bad if it 
created any bad feelings.

Robert

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[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?!

[Jim Fulton]

Philipp von Weitershausen wrote:
Martin, Maik, Andreas, and others,

I see two issues being raised in this thread:



2. Especially Andreas expressed his worries about the current release 
policy in Zope 2 and its future regarding maintainance and support. I 
have to say that I share some of his skepticism regarding Zope 2. I 
personally have never fully understood ZC's reasons for the release 
roadmap as it is. I might not see the big picture, but I know I would 
have done it differently. I've always tried to make that clear in the 
past.
I'm surprised to read this. Could you be more specific about your concerns?

Jim

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[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

[Max M]

Stephan Richter wrote:


Concerning the release schedule, ZC has little to do with that for Zope 3. In 
fact, I have been release manager since this summer and I am responsible for 
the release schedule and packages. However, I decided not to release often, 
since again we do not have bandwidth to support the milestones. Since the CVS 
is as stable as any milestone release (we have tests for everything), 
releases are less important and it is much easier and less time consuming to 
support the current HEAD, which you can just download via the Web.
My only problem is that it is difficult to be an "occasional" developer 
in Z3 on Windows.

I normally don't develop in c. So I don't have Visual Studion installed.

I have downloaded the milestones and tried them out. But then I read 
about this and that *geddon, and think "well guess I should wait for 
another version" before I try it again.

I quickly feel out of sync in Z3.

If there was some way to have a Binary core that didn't change very 
often, and a Python only part that I could upload from cvs/subversion to 
be up to date, it would be much easier to use a few hours here and there 
to try out stuff in Z3.

Or perhaps an automated nightly Windows build.

I believe that Chris Withers is testing Z3 nightly on Windows. Right?

Would it be difficult to have that available as a download somewhere? It 
seems that zipping and uploading the test directory is enough.

Being able to grab the builds seems more important than the releases.


However, 
we are getting the first alpha out by the end of the month. Hopefully, by end 
of May we will have finished the X3.0 to-do list and will release the beta. 
At this point the API will freeze and application developers are encouraged 
to have look at it.
Great.

regards Max M

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[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

[Casey Duncan]

On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 11:36:31 +0200
Andreas Jung <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Some remarks from my side as a Zope2 core developer on this issue:
> 
> The Z2 community and development is currently at a bad point:
> 
>  - very few people are contributing to the Z2 in terms of new code and
>  bug 
> fixes
> (see the tons of open bugs in the collector)

I agree that bugs deserve more attention. We need to have more bug days.
I meant to suggest a date last week, but I got diverted. How would
people feel about next Thursday, April 29?
 
>  - very few people are willing to contribute to documentation

On a bright note, I think zopewiki.org could change that. It *greatly*
lowers the bar on contributing substantive docs for Zope. I would
implore all of you (as in you, the reader of this message, yes you!) to
go there and write something, now! You know something that has not been
written down yet, so go write it down! You can even do so anonymously.

-Casey


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[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?!

[Jim Fulton]

Max M wrote:
Martin Kretschmar wrote:

Shortly said, the whole set of stupidities in
connection with Zope3. It is a pretty bad state
for a project, if it looms for years as the
followup project on the horizon but in reality
isn't one! 


It looks like the classical strategic mistake:

http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog69.html
Well, I don't agree with this assessment for Zope 3.  We needed
the freedom to work oput new ideas and patterns.  Trying to use existing code
would have been a huge distraction. I think that the result proves that we
were right.  The beauty of our approach is that, having built what we've
built, we'll be able to take advantage of that code in the current platform.
Jim

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[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?!

[Jim Fulton]

Martin Kretschmar wrote:
Hello,

Maik Jablonski of the german speaking Zope Users Group
DZUG issued a pretty bleak outlook for the future of
Zope. What are your oppinions?
Here comes the translation of his oppoion:


Maik, what makes you look full of scepticism for
the future of Zope?


Shortly said, the whole set of stupidities in
connection with Zope3.
Well, thanks for the kind words.  Makes me want to
work really hard to satisfy your concerns.
> It is a pretty bad state
for a project, if it looms for years as the
followup project on the horizon but in reality
isn't one! I can't believe the fairy tales with
the possible migration from Zope2 to Zope3.
I'm sorry you feel that way.

We've tried to be very honest about the road map.
Zope 3 has taken much longer than I expected. I made
a conscious decision a few months ago to actually slow it
down, Why? Two reasons:
- We have Zope 2. While not perfect, Zope 2 is a great system.
  We make out living with Zope 2. The vast majority of ZC
  people work in Zope 2, not Zope 3.
- We want Zope 3 to be as solid and clean as it can be.
  We have an opportunity, before a stable release, to change things
  readily. That will be much harder once it's in production.

All the people which have dwelled more or less
deeply into the Zope2 world, thereby having had
an enormous learning curve and now running
applications,
This enormous learning curve is one of the main
reasons we created Zope 3.
> will not be able to participate
easily on the academic Zope3 train. The technic
freaks who modell Zope3 are usually not application
developers,  which have to build and run working
> applications for real human users.

That's both insulting and incorrect.  Many of the leaders
of the Zope 2 community are involved in Zope 3 and using it.
These people are application developers.

The artifical
not-yet-product Zope3 will sooner or later be
distracting development efforts from Zope2 because
Zope3 is "almost finished." That doesn't look not
nice ...
Any new project distracts development from other projects.
That's natural and healthy? Has development on Zope 2 stopped?
No. ZC still puts more work into Zope 2 than into Zope 3.
I expect that to continue for some time.
Jim

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[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

[Max M]

Stephan Richter wrote:
Hi,

As stated before, I think that can be changed, if enough interest is shown in 
the community. But I think the Zope community lacks strong leaders; too many 
people are only interested in making money with it without realizing that 
their future depends on the general success and development of Zope.


That is not nessecarily mutually exclusive. But taking leadership is 
only possible if it is easy.

I doubt that Plone would have been a succes if it had followed the Zope 
release schedule ...


And that in itself is the problem. Making money is most important, securing 
the future is second. People don't care about the latter. :-(
Offcourse we do.

But we need to focus on a few areas. We cannot all develop frameworks.

Personally I serve my customers, and write content types for Plone. That 
is a full-time job right there.

I do take pride in making them well tested, and properly documented. I 
don't really see how I can do any more than that.


- The zope.org community site is a mess. Lots of outstanding problems are
not fixed, the performance
   of the site is more than poor (it takes ages to login, it takes ages to
load pages),
Stuff like performance is probably better off left to zc. It is very 
hardware specific, so on-site developers has a clear advantage.


   usability (e.g. when you perform a software release) is bad.
Yes!


Nobody is willing to contribute. ZC agreed to change zope.org to Plone so more 
community members can contribute. 
Well. The switch wasn't very well made. It has become more difficult to 
use. (Why do we need the default state to be private? Or perhaps trusted 
Members could get the reviewer role locally so that it would be easier 
to use.)

> But noone has stepped up; that's very sad.

Stepped up to do what? How do you step up? To me it seems like you will 
get the ability to have endless comitee meetings about how it should 
work. Not the power to just change stuff. Even if it breaks sometimes.

I have enough of that kind of work from my customers thank you ;-)

regards Max M

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[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?!

[Philipp von Weitershausen]

Martin, Maik, Andreas, and others,

I see two issues being raised in this thread:

1. Maik disagrees with the design philosophy behind Zope3 (the Component 
Architecture) and the place Zope3 wants to position itself at in the 
future. As a Zope developer who has spent the last two years both 
developing *with* Zope2 and developing Zope3 itself, I obviously have a 
different point of view about the technical part. Whether Zope3 will be 
success in its market niche is yet to be determined. If you fight, you 
can win the war; if you give up now, you've already lost the war.

Since this is more a philosophical issue, or even a matter of taste, I 
am not going to argue too much about it. I find the component 
architecture superior to anything we have seen before and we will soon 
have proofs that it is capable of industrial strength applications. Most 
other developers who are involved into development with or of CMF (such 
as the leading Plone developers) seem to share that point of view; in 
fact, we all can't hardly wait for Zope3 to hit stable.

2. Especially Andreas expressed his worries about the current release 
policy in Zope 2 and its future regarding maintainance and support. I 
have to say that I share some of his skepticism regarding Zope 2. I 
personally have never fully understood ZC's reasons for the release 
roadmap as it is. I might not see the big picture, but I know I would 
have done it differently. I've always tried to make that clear in the 
past. Coming up with harsh criticism now is not very fair, I think, 
especially when you're as in involved as Maik or Andreas.

Zope 2 development has opened for the community a lot in the past. While 
people were to extend Zope2 with more or less useful features (seemed to 
me that it was more than fixing bugs), all the administrative stuff got 
stuck with ZC. Did anyone from the community ever volunteer helping with 
the releases or the CVS administration?
In this matter, btw, the future painted in Zope3 is brighter: more 
community involvement, more innovations coming from the community and 
more administrative tasks taken up by volunteers. Not that I'm not 
suggesting that more help is needed...

Philipp

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Re: [Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

[Stephan Richter]

Hi,

the points I snipped I agree with and/or have no new input for.

On Wednesday 21 April 2004 05:36, Andreas Jung wrote:
> The reasons for this situation from my prospective:
>
>  - Lots of Z2 people are working now  on Plone projects. Plone currently
> attracts more people
> because the important and interesting projects are done there. Paul
> Everits goal to grow
> Zope by 10 times might happen through Plone, not through Zope itself

Yes. Note that there are plans emerging for Plone 3 for Zope 3. I hope that we 
will be able to redirect some of the development power of Plone towards Zope 
with Plone 3. And I think that will be possible. Zope 2 has too many 
abstraction layers: Zope --> CMF --> Plone, CPS, ... That means that if I 
develop a product for Zope, it cannot be automatically used in CMF/Plone 
optimally anymore. With Zope 3 we will get a fresh start on this.

>  - The Z2 development is badly managed. The 2.7 release has been delayed
> for one year or so.

Yes, I hope we will be able to manage releases in the community for Zope 3. 
Jim encouraged this by asking me to do the current Zope 3 releases (so I hope 
I will be able to give away this responsibility to someone else, when the 
Zope 3 community grows -- it will need someone who is constantly involved in 
the real world and sees the needs for releases clearer than I do).

>  - ZC is currently the bottleneck for Z2. 

As stated before, I think that can be changed, if enough interest is shown in 
the community. But I think the Zope community lacks strong leaders; too many 
people are only interested in making money with it without realizing that 
their future depends on the general success and development of Zope.

> Maiks words: Z3 is
>   attractive as an academic project to try out things and concepts but it
> does not attract people
>   in the current stage...maybe in two years from now but currently most
> people are attracted
>   by working and usable solutions like Plone.

And that in itself is the problem. Making money is most important, securing 
the future is second. People don't care about the latter. :-(

>  - The zope.org community site is a mess. Lots of outstanding problems are
> not fixed, the performance
> of the site is more than poor (it takes ages to login, it takes ages to
> load pages),
> usability (e.g. when you perform a software release) is bad.

Nobody is willing to contribute. ZC agreed to change zope.org to Plone so more 
community members can contribute. But noone has stepped up; that's very sad.

Regards,
Stephan
-- 
Stephan Richter
CBU Physics & Chemistry (B.S.) / Tufts Physics (Ph.D. student)
Web2k - Web Software Design, Development and Training

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[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

[Seb Bacon]

Personally, I think Zope3 has a great future, and will pick up a much 
larger community than Zope2 ever did, because it's better designed and 
better documented.

In general, the people who stand to gain immediately (or pretty soon) 
from Zope3 are enthusiasts; newcomers; and ZC.

However, if the process of moving away from Zope2 is not managed very 
carefully and slowly, the people who stand to lose are companies that 
already rely on Zope2.  I agree that the solution is probably to allow 
the community more control over the release cycle, web site, and 
repository.  We could follow various other models from elsewhere in the 
OSS world, and see what happens.

I believe that ZC's apparent reticence on this is because they are 
(understandably) interested in preserving control over their brand, 
which overlaps rather largely with the software.

What would be helpful is a definitive statement from ZC as to whether 
they would consider relinquishing some of their control over Zope 2. 
Perhaps, instead of a code fork, we could have a brand fork, with a 
different website, a different name, and a different release schedule 
(think Fedora?)

Seb

Andreas Jung wrote:
From my own prospective as developer I would like to see that Z2
development over the next
two or three years continues because there is too much Z2 legacy code in 
the world and not
everyone is interested in following the migration path for Z3. To be 
honest I doubt that large
custom applications can be migrated with a justifiable amount of time 
and money (just because
they are completely bound to Z2 components and its architecture).

To clarify my standpoint: I am not an opponent of Zope3 but Zope 3 does 
not convince me
in the current stage and gives me little attraction for the projects I 
am working onit just can
not compete with Zope 2 if you are building large-scale systems at this 
time.

Andreas

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[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?!

[Max M]

Martin Kretschmar wrote:

Shortly said, the whole set of stupidities in
connection with Zope3. It is a pretty bad state
for a project, if it looms for years as the
followup project on the horizon but in reality
isn't one! 
It looks like the classical strategic mistake:

http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog69.html

Funny thing though is that Joel uses Netscape/Mozilla as an example on 
how not to do it. I think that the jury is still out as to who won the 
browser war.

So it ain't ower until the fat lady sings.


I can't believe the fairy tales with
the possible migration from Zope2 to Zope3.
Me neither. The best we can hope is that it will be like copying a Z2 
product to a folder, and then move stuff out into configuration files 
instead. Perhaps it can be somewhat automated, but I see a lot of 
subtleties that can only be handled manually.

On the possitive side, a lot of the Z3 technologies are allready 
back-ported to to Z2. So Z3 will not be completely alien.

But if Z3 succeds in picking up more developers, as Z3 development gets 
a lot easier and more Pythonic, it can very well be better in the long run.


All the people which have dwelled more or less
deeply into the Zope2 world, thereby having had
an enormous learning curve and now running
applications, will not be able to participate
easily on the academic Zope3 train. The technic
freaks who modell Zope3 are usually not application
developers, which have to build and run working
applications for real human users. The artifical
not-yet-product Zope3 will sooner or later be
distracting development efforts from Zope2 because
Zope3 is "almost finished." That doesn't look not
nice ...
It is the single biggest concern about Zopes future. That is correct. 
And not one to be taken lightly.

But the biggest problem with Z2 has allways been the steep learning curve.

Relatively few developers has been able to work on it. The time lost for 
Z2 developers transfering to Z3 could quickly be offset by new 
developers due to an easier development model.

Also, Python is flexible. We will probably see a transition phase, where 
products are developed for Z2/Z3 compatibility. That way we *can* get a 
smooth transition.


Further I see the problem that Zope probably has
no real target group as an application server.
Zope has allways had that problem. But actually it fits very nicely into 
the cms market. Especially with Plone as the base.

Many companies has their own home rolled cms system. They will be 
replaced by open solutions due to scale of economics. It is simply to 
costly to compete against something like Plone.

Zope/Plone has a sweet spot that actually fits most customers out there. 
You can make solutions for a fraction of the cost of what a typical Java 
bases system costs.

Many Java based cms solutions are too costly timewise to implement 
solutions in for many customers.


The enterprise world is dominated by .Net and
J2EE. Zope in its current form without a sensible
documentation in conjunction with the drama about
the english zope book doesn't help changing this.
Scripting has arrived in the Java world by Groovy,
so this isn't a reason for using Zope anymore.
Scripting was never the reason for Zope. The absolutely brilliant object 
publishing model was.

Well that and Python.

It might be Groovy, but Python it ain't!

The things you can do in Zope you simply cannot do as well in other 
systems. The solution fits the problem space *very* well.


In
the world of small and medium applications PHP is
likely to stay, because it leads much faster to
results. Zope is to complicated for this.
The world of small/medium applications will dissapear! The bigger 
systems like Plone can do anything out of the box that the small 
hand-built systems needs to have hand coded.

Why on earth should somebody set up a PHP server and do a lot of hand 
coding, when they can set up a Plone server that does it all for them?

PHP based systems tends to be monolithic blocks. Something like PHPBoard 
is a good example. Setting it up is rather complicated. And using 
several on the same site is also difficult.

I Zope you can have a discussion board in each end every folder, just by 
adding it through a web based interface.

Furthermore smaller systems will grow larger. Then they will get growing 
problems too. Developers allready using bigger systems will find the 
future simpler.


For the CMS stuff we have Plone, but this is rather
suited for handling some simplistic documents for the
intranet rather then a nice internet representation.
This is because customizing Plone isn't trivial at
all and nobody want's to run web pages with standard
underwear blue. OK, the colours can be changed easily,
other features via CSS, etc. ...
That is hard for any CMS system. What system does it better? It isn't a 
simple task to create a skinning system that flexible.

Actually I find Plone to be very well factored for a system of that 
complexity.

There isn't much in Plon

[Zope-dev] Re: The bleak Future of Zope?

[Andreas Jung]

Some remarks from my side as a Zope2 core developer on this issue:

The Z2 community and development is currently at a bad point:

- very few people are contributing to the Z2 in terms of new code and bug 
fixes
   (see the tons of open bugs in the collector)

- very few people are willing to contribute to documentation

The reasons for this situation from my prospective:

- Lots of Z2 people are working now  on Plone projects. Plone currently 
attracts more people
   because the important and interesting projects are done there. Paul 
Everits goal to grow
   Zope by 10 times might happen through Plone, not through Zope itself

- The Z2 development is badly managed. The 2.7 release has been delayed 
for one year or so.

- ZC is currently the bottleneck for Z2. Several  important people have 
left  and I don't see any
  new blood there. I see that ZC is focusing on Z3 for the future. That is 
a legitimate goal from
  their own prospective but it does not reflect the needs of lots of 
users. Speaking for the company
 I am mainly working for have invest a lot time, code and money into Z2 
development. E.g. our
 complete company-critical CMS is currently being rewritten on the base of 
Zope2. Several
 other products will be also Zope 2 based. Zope 3 is in the current stage 
not really an alternative
 for complex sites, portals and applications in the style we are working 
on. Z3 might become
 interesting if we have Plone-like functionality available.  To speak with 
Maiks words: Z3 is
 attractive as an academic project to try out things and concepts but it 
does not attract people
 in the current stage...maybe in two years from now but currently most 
people are attracted
 by working and usable solutions like Plone.

- The zope.org community site is a mess. Lots of outstanding problems are 
not fixed, the performance
   of the site is more than poor (it takes ages to login, it takes ages to 
load pages),
   usability (e.g. when you perform a software release) is bad.

We need for Zope2

 - a better and open management for Z2 releases: If ZC can not provide the 
resources in terms
of time and manpower, the coordination and release management should 
be given
to the community. I am sure that more are willing to contribute more 
than at the moment.
Several companies maintain their own Zope version with lots of 
extensions and it would be fine
to see this stuff in a common repository.

- a clear statement from ZC to the future of Zope 2. Zope 2.8 and Zope 2.9 
are considered
   as a migration path for Zope 3 where the Z2 support should be dropped 
after these releases
   (as far as I can remember the vision of Rob a while ago). Who will 
manage Z2 releases after
   dropping the Z2 support? The last solution would be a Z2 code fork if 
we can not come to common
   agreement on the Z2 future but a code fork  would be really the last 
and absolutely worst solution
   for everyone.

- Fix the most outstanding critical bugs on zope.org and speed it up. 
Zope.org is currently a very
   bad figurehead for Zope. If ZC can not solve the problemseither 
give the responsibility to other
   people or just close zope.org.

From my own prospective as developer I would like to see that Z2
development over the next
two or three years continues because there is too much Z2 legacy code in 
the world and not
everyone is interested in following the migration path for Z3. To be honest 
I doubt that large
custom applications can be migrated with a justifiable amount of time and 
money (just because
they are completely bound to Z2 components and its architecture).

To clarify my standpoint: I am not an opponent of Zope3 but Zope 3 does not 
convince me
in the current stage and gives me little attraction for the projects I am 
working onit just can
not compete with Zope 2 if you are building large-scale systems at this 
time.

Andreas

-
ZOPYX - Software Development & Consulting Andreas Jung
www.zopyx.com
--

Andreas Jung

www.zopyx.com Software-Entwicklung und Consulting Andreas Jung
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