[Zope-dev] Re: Zope3, CMS, IDEs
Seb Bacon wrote: P.S. I don't agree with your pessimistic assessment of CMF, or Plone. They're both good at what they do. Funny, I do, and Joachim's the first person to put that into words that made sense for me... Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] Re: Zope3, CMS, IDEs
Joachim Werner wrote: I've proposed that a couple of times already. There are two problems in real life: 1) Somebody has to take care of managing the project. 2) If politics take over, things will quickly fall apart. I agree. I hope that Heimo Paul's session at EP will help work through some solutions to these points. I disagree that performance is a problem in Zope 2. I've heard that a couple of times. But let's face it: Of course you can get Zope to deliver partly dynamic pages at high speed and if you use caching you can deliver pages at wire speed, but it will not be nearly as fast as a solution using Java or .NET/C# if we are talking about a lot of two-way traffic and CPU-intensive tasks in the back end, e.g. an online shopping mall, a booking system, or a groupware. Well, the site I am talking about is a real-world, huge-traffic, highly dynamic, personalised shopping site and multiple bookings system which gets millions of visits a day. It performs very well under extreme load in test conditions, *even when you take squid out*: better than the previous Java solution. I would take this as a pretty good indication that performance need not be an issue when evaluating Zope. Let's face it: there are plenty of badly-performing Java sites out there ;-) I do agree that it is hard to find best practice information about this subject, though. I am planning to do a talk about it at Europython. If Chris M doesn't mind, I'll be using some of his material, and elaborating on it: http://www.plope.org/misc/szweb The reason the Zope site I'm talking about performs better, IMO, is nothing to do with the language, but to do with (a) the better application design and (b) the ease of scaling horizontally with ZEO. seb ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] Re: Zope3, CMS, IDEs (was: The bleak Future of Zope?)
On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 11:15:58 +0100, Seb Bacon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Joachim Werner wrote: There are quite a few Zope-based CMS solutions out there, and most of them are better than their commercial counterparts in many respects. But if we had managed to start a joint CMS effort (other than CMF, which is a failure by design) two or three years ago things would look even better now. It would be great to start something like a Zope3 CMS interest group up, to pool all our CMS experience - start collecting requirements, etc. Seems like a mighty large task, though :-) I'd like to at least have a session on this topic at Europython. Heimo and I have proposed a panel with the CMS's for Zope, to discuss the future of content management in Zope. My goal is to have a session that is structured enough to actually make a constructive step forward, if only in understanding and agreement. Particularly regarding Zope3. The panelists would be the implementors of current CMSs for Zope. How bout you, Silva, CPS, and Plone? Any others? --Paul ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
AW: [Zope-dev] Re: Zope3, CMS, IDEs (was: The bleak Future of Zope?)
Paul Everitt wrote On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 11:15:58 +0100, Seb Bacon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Joachim Werner wrote: There are quite a few Zope-based CMS solutions out there, and most of them are better than their commercial counterparts in many respects. But if we had managed to start a joint CMS effort (other than CMF, which is a failure by design) two or three years ago things would look even better now. It would be great to start something like a Zope3 CMS interest group up, to pool all our CMS experience - start collecting requirements, etc. Seems like a mighty large task, though :-) I'd like to at least have a session on this topic at Europython. Heimo and I have proposed a panel with the CMS's for Zope, to discuss the future of content management in Zope. My goal is to have a session that is structured enough to actually make a constructive step forward, if only in understanding and agreement. Particularly regarding Zope3. The panelists would be the implementors of current CMSs for Zope. How bout you, Silva, CPS, and Plone? Any others? Yes, we work on a open source framework based on Zope3 called tiks. I'm interested in this, can you point me to the proposal? --Paul ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ) ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] Re: Zope3, CMS, IDEs
Joachim Werner wrote: [Seb Bacon wrote:] I disagree that performance is a problem in Zope 2. With a combination of profiling to eliminate bottlenecks, ZEO, and Squid, Zope hums along beautifully. We are consulting for a company that is in the process of replacing their Java front-end with Zope. They have huge amounts of traffic, and are impressed with Zope's performance compared with their comparable Java system. I've heard that a couple of times. But let's face it: Of course you can get Zope to deliver partly dynamic pages at high speed and if you use caching you can deliver pages at wire speed, but it will not be nearly as fast as a solution using Java or .NET/C# if we are talking about a lot of two-way traffic and CPU-intensive tasks in the back end, e.g. an online shopping mall, a booking system, or a groupware. I have yet to see a comprehensive list of official (as in approved) things to consider when designing and building your application and then deploying it. I am not trying to coerce anyone into doing this for me, I am just pointing out the situation. There are several docs that go thru different aspects, but they are scattered around the net, and there is no real, AFAIK, description of do's and don'ts related to Zope application desing. I think these things should go into the manual perhaps. I will try to contribute to such an end - eventually a chapter on that might even become written ;-) P.S. I don't agree with your pessimistic assessment of CMF, or Plone. They're both good at what they do. I agree with you that Plone is quite impressive as it is now, but nobody will ever convince me that the CMF = Plone way was the right way to go ... Well, different people, different tastes ;-) This is also something I have never been able to find any comprehensive document describing in som depth what the shortcomings of CMF and Plone. Is there one? /dario -- -- --- Dario Lopez-Kästen, IT Systems Services Chalmers University of Tech. ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
