Re: [Zope-dev] SVN: zope2book/trunk/ Lot's of updates over the weekend!

2009-02-21 Thread Lennart Regebro
On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 11:37, Lennart Regebro  wrote:
> With the revolutionary eggification of the masses that is underway the
> dictatorship has ended. Zope 2.12 is a libertarian meritodemocracy.

Well, at least if you have svn access. :)
-- 
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http://regebro.wordpress.com/
+33 661 58 14 64
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Re: [Zope-dev] SVN: zope2book/trunk/ Lot's of updates over the weekend!

2009-02-21 Thread Lennart Regebro
On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 11:27, Dieter Maurer  wrote:

> As I will make it with ZClasses, I will participate outside your circles.
> Thus, you may dictate and I fight your dictatorship

With the revolutionary eggification of the masses that is underway the
dictatorship has ended. Zope 2.12 is a libertarian meritodemocracy.

-- 
Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista.
http://regebro.wordpress.com/
+33 661 58 14 64
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Re: [Zope-dev] SVN: zope2book/trunk/ Lot's of updates over the weekend!

2009-02-21 Thread Andreas Jung
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On 21.02.2009 11:27 Uhr, Dieter Maurer wrote:
> Jens Vagelpohl wrote at 2009-2-16 20:43 +0100:
>> ...
>> On Feb 16, 2009, at 19:43 , Dieter Maurer wrote:
>>
>>> Andreas Jung wrote at 2009-2-16 19:20 +0100:
 ...
 Please come off it. Either become an active contributor and  
 participate
 in our dictatorship
>>> I will never participate in your dictatorship!
>> Only those who participate can influence the direction.
> 
> As I will make it with ZClasses, I will participate outside your circles.
> Thus, you may dictate and I fight your dictatorship
>

Zope is like anarchy - not dictatorship. So you're fighting against
non-existing enemies :-)

Andreas
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Re: [Zope-dev] SVN: zope2book/trunk/ Lot's of updates over the weekend!

2009-02-21 Thread Dieter Maurer
Jens Vagelpohl wrote at 2009-2-16 20:43 +0100:
> ...
>On Feb 16, 2009, at 19:43 , Dieter Maurer wrote:
>
>> Andreas Jung wrote at 2009-2-16 19:20 +0100:
>>> ...
>>> Please come off it. Either become an active contributor and  
>>> participate
>>> in our dictatorship
>>
>> I will never participate in your dictatorship!
>
>Only those who participate can influence the direction.

As I will make it with ZClasses, I will participate outside your circles.
Thus, you may dictate and I fight your dictatorship



-- 
Dieter
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Re: [Zope-dev] SVN: zope2book/trunk/ Lot's of updates over the weekend!

2009-02-21 Thread Dieter Maurer
Andreas Jung wrote at 2009-2-16 19:50 +0100:
>-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>Hash: SHA1
>
>On 16.02.2009 19:43 Uhr, Dieter Maurer wrote:
>> Andreas Jung wrote at 2009-2-16 19:20 +0100:
>>> ...
>>> Please come off it. Either become an active contributor and participate
>>> in our dictatorship
>> 
>> I will never participate in your dictatorship!
>>
>
>How childish.

I hate dictatorship - consequently I will not participate.



-- 
Dieter
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Re: [Zope-dev] SVN: zope2book/trunk/ Lot's of updates over the weekend!

2009-02-17 Thread Simon Michael
Tres Seaver wrote:
>>> I think it is too premature to be moving the DTML chapters out of the
>>> book:  if we arent just updating the book to be current with 2.12, then
>>> we probably need to discuss what kind of book we want, before chopping
>>> it apart.

and

> I would rather make the case, explaining the tradeoffs, including the
> fact that the consensus of the community is as you express, but then let
> people make up their own minds.

+1 to both.

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Re: [Zope-dev] SVN: zope2book/trunk/ Lot's of updates over the weekend!

2009-02-17 Thread Stephan Richter
On Tuesday 17 February 2009, Wichert Akkerman wrote:
> > You need to generate CSS when you want to use absolute paths for
> > images referred to in your CSS. This can easily be done with ZPT:
>
> Very often you don't need to do that though, and it actively breaks the
> ability to do prototyping with your html and css outside of the
> application.

You could also port z3c.zrtresource to Zope 2, which solves this exact 
problem.

Regards,
Stephan
-- 
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Web Software Design, Development and Training
Google me. "Zope Stephan Richter"
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Re: [Zope-dev] SVN: zope2book/trunk/ Lot's of updates over the weekend!

2009-02-17 Thread Wichert Akkerman
Previously Martijn Pieters wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 12:08, Tino Wildenhain  wrote:
> > You should really not generate CSS ;) And JS is best generated with
> > Jason :-)
> 
> You need to generate CSS when you want to use absolute paths for
> images referred to in your CSS. This can easily be done with ZPT:

Very often you don't need to do that though, and it actively breaks the
ability to do prototyping with your html and css outside of the
application.

Wichert.

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http://www.wiggy.net/   It is hard to make things simple.
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Re: [Zope-dev] SVN: zope2book/trunk/ Lot's of updates over the weekend!

2009-02-17 Thread Martijn Pieters
On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 12:08, Tino Wildenhain  wrote:
> You should really not generate CSS ;) And JS is best generated with
> Jason :-)

You need to generate CSS when you want to use absolute paths for
images referred to in your CSS. This can easily be done with ZPT:



The above code snippet is taken from a current project; the portal_url
dance is there because this is a browser:resource template and such a
template only has access to the request, not a context.

We also generate some JS to provide client-side code with translated
labels. Alternatively you can do this with hidden elements in your
main template as well, but the generated JS way was more maintainable
as this keeps the labels and the code close together.

-- 
Martijn Pieters
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Re: [Zope-dev] SVN: zope2book/trunk/ Lot's of updates over the weekend!

2009-02-17 Thread Tino Wildenhain

Dieter Maurer wrote:

Tres Seaver wrote at 2009-2-15 10:45 -0500:

...
At the moment, the book is largely a guide to what can be done with Zope
TTW.  DTML is still part of that store: it isn't gone, nor even
deprecated:  its just that most core developers prefer not to use it in
most cases.  Note that there is still no replacement for DTML for at
least one major TTW use case (SQL methods).


In addition, CSS and Javascript is easier generated with DTML than
with page templates.


You should really not generate CSS ;) And JS is best generated with
Jason :-)

Regards
Tino


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Re: [Zope-dev] SVN: zope2book/trunk/ Lot's of updates over the weekend!

2009-02-16 Thread Jens Vagelpohl
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On Feb 16, 2009, at 19:43 , Dieter Maurer wrote:

> Andreas Jung wrote at 2009-2-16 19:20 +0100:
>> ...
>> Please come off it. Either become an active contributor and  
>> participate
>> in our dictatorship
>
> I will never participate in your dictatorship!

Only those who participate can influence the direction. Standing on  
the sidelines and complaining is not helpful, neither for you nor for  
other developers, and certainly not for the community.

jens


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Re: [Zope-dev] SVN: zope2book/trunk/ Lot's of updates over the weekend!

2009-02-16 Thread Andreas Jung
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On 16.02.2009 19:43 Uhr, Dieter Maurer wrote:
> Andreas Jung wrote at 2009-2-16 19:20 +0100:
>> ...
>> Please come off it. Either become an active contributor and participate
>> in our dictatorship
> 
> I will never participate in your dictatorship!
>

How childish.

Andreas
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Re: [Zope-dev] SVN: zope2book/trunk/ Lot's of updates over the weekend!

2009-02-16 Thread Dieter Maurer
Andreas Jung wrote at 2009-2-16 19:20 +0100:
> ...
>Please come off it. Either become an active contributor and participate
>in our dictatorship

I will never participate in your dictatorship!



-- 
Dieter
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Re: [Zope-dev] SVN: zope2book/trunk/ Lot's of updates over the weekend!

2009-02-16 Thread Andreas Jung
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On 16.02.2009 18:45 Uhr, Dieter Maurer wrote:
> Tres Seaver wrote at 2009-2-15 11:03 -0500:
>> ...
>> I would rather make the case, explaining the tradeoffs, including the
>> fact that the consensus of the community is as you express, but then let
>> people make up their own minds.
> 
> +1
> 
> I hate the tendancy of quite a few Zope core developpers to dictate
> how others should develop *their* applications.

Please come off it. Either become an active contributor and participate
in our dictatorship or we become deaf over time from your ongoing rumbling.

Andreas
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Re: [Zope-dev] SVN: zope2book/trunk/ Lot's of updates over the weekend!

2009-02-16 Thread Dieter Maurer
Tres Seaver wrote at 2009-2-15 11:03 -0500:
> ...
>I would rather make the case, explaining the tradeoffs, including the
>fact that the consensus of the community is as you express, but then let
>people make up their own minds.

+1

I hate the tendancy of quite a few Zope core developpers to dictate
how others should develop *their* applications.



-- 
Dieter
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Re: [Zope-dev] SVN: zope2book/trunk/ Lot's of updates over the weekend!

2009-02-16 Thread Dieter Maurer
Tres Seaver wrote at 2009-2-15 10:45 -0500:
> ...
>At the moment, the book is largely a guide to what can be done with Zope
>TTW.  DTML is still part of that store: it isn't gone, nor even
>deprecated:  its just that most core developers prefer not to use it in
>most cases.  Note that there is still no replacement for DTML for at
>least one major TTW use case (SQL methods).

In addition, CSS and Javascript is easier generated with DTML than
with page templates.



-- 
Dieter
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Re: [Zope-dev] SVN: zope2book/trunk/ Lot's of updates over the weekend!

2009-02-15 Thread Andreas Jung
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On 15.02.2009 17:03 Uhr, Tres Seaver wrote:
> Hanno Schlichting wrote:
>> Tres Seaver wrote:
>>> Hanno Schlichting wrote:
 Log message for revision 96569:
   Lot's of updates over the weekend!
>>> I think it is too premature to be moving the DTML chapters out of the
>>> book:  if we arent just updating the book to be current with 2.12, then
>>> we probably need to discuss what kind of book we want, before chopping
>>> it apart.
>> OK. I wasn't too sure either. I can put them back in, but make it
>> clearer that using ZPT is preferred over DTML for all tasks where it is
>> possible.
> 
> I would rather make the case, explaining the tradeoffs, including the
> fact that the consensus of the community is as you express, but then let
> people make up their own minds.
> 
> DTML is *not* like ZClasses:  it isn't bitrotting through lack of use,
> nor is it scheduled (or ever) likely to be removed from Zope2.  Please
> keep in mind the ZMI / TTW focus of the current book, while you're at
> it:  this book is not aimed at Python / filesystem developers at all,
> but at casual users working on simple TTW apps.

+1.

DTML is still a 1st-class citizen of Zope 2. So the DTML documentation
should remain in place. Both related DTML chapters should perhaps get a
clear preface containing something like the following and/or somehow
marked as "obsolete" Zope techology (obsolete in the sense that we're
having better alternatives):

 - ZPT is the preferred and recommended way for generating HTML or
   markup-ish output
 - DTML playing only a role for ZSQL methods
 - DTML might be used for generating text-ish content (non-HTML, non-XML
   content)
 - DTML should really only be used if there are no other
   alternatives (for ZSQL methods we have SQLAlchemy based integration
   layers)

Andreas
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Re: [Zope-dev] SVN: zope2book/trunk/ Lot's of updates over the weekend!

2009-02-15 Thread Tres Seaver
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Hanno Schlichting wrote:
> Tres Seaver wrote:
>> Hanno Schlichting wrote:
>>> Log message for revision 96569:
>>>   Lot's of updates over the weekend!
>> I think it is too premature to be moving the DTML chapters out of the
>> book:  if we arent just updating the book to be current with 2.12, then
>> we probably need to discuss what kind of book we want, before chopping
>> it apart.
> 
> OK. I wasn't too sure either. I can put them back in, but make it
> clearer that using ZPT is preferred over DTML for all tasks where it is
> possible.

I would rather make the case, explaining the tradeoffs, including the
fact that the consensus of the community is as you express, but then let
people make up their own minds.

DTML is *not* like ZClasses:  it isn't bitrotting through lack of use,
nor is it scheduled (or ever) likely to be removed from Zope2.  Please
keep in mind the ZMI / TTW focus of the current book, while you're at
it:  this book is not aimed at Python / filesystem developers at all,
but at casual users working on simple TTW apps.

For instance, the still-prevalent use of ZPT as a scripting language
(versus a templating language) is arguably *worse* than DTML:  it is
harder to read, and completely breaks the original promise of ZPT (not
trashing the designer's HTML).  Note that *I* still (ab)use ZPT this
way, because it is expedient, and because I know I can clean it up if it
gets too messy, but that doesn't make it "advisable."


Tres.
- --
===
Tres Seaver  +1 540-429-0999  tsea...@palladion.com
Palladion Software   "Excellence by Design"http://palladion.com
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Re: [Zope-dev] SVN: zope2book/trunk/ Lot's of updates over the weekend!

2009-02-15 Thread Tres Seaver
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Hanno Schlichting wrote:
> Log message for revision 96569:
>   Lot's of updates over the weekend!
>   
> 
> Changed:
>   A   zope2book/trunk/TODO.txt
>   A   zope2book/trunk/old/
>   A   zope2book/trunk/old/AdvDTML.rst
>   A   zope2book/trunk/old/DTML.rst
>   U   zope2book/trunk/source/Acquisition.rst
>   D   zope2book/trunk/source/AdvDTML.rst

I think it is too premature to be moving the DTML chapters out of the
book:  if we arent just updating the book to be current with 2.12, then
we probably need to discuss what kind of book we want, before chopping
it apart.

At the moment, the book is largely a guide to what can be done with Zope
TTW.  DTML is still part of that store: it isn't gone, nor even
deprecated:  its just that most core developers prefer not to use it in
most cases.  Note that there is still no replacement for DTML for at
least one major TTW use case (SQL methods).

Rewriting the "when to use ZPT vs. DTML bits, and making them more
prominent earlier in the book, would be a sensible change.


Tres.
- --
===
Tres Seaver  +1 540-429-0999  tsea...@palladion.com
Palladion Software   "Excellence by Design"http://palladion.com
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