[Zope-dev] case insensitive sorts
Minor nit and patch: I've found that really for me what users want to see is a case insensitive sort of objects, not the current python case sensitive sort. So that the order of objects from dtml-in and tree is a, A, b, B as apposed to A, B, a, b. Anyway Ive patched dtml-in and dtml-tree to do this sort on a ignore_case tag. Is this useful to anyone else? And Ive thought of patching my Zope so this is the default behaviour what does anyone else think. The next thing to patch is ZCatalog... ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] case insensitive sorts
Andy McKay wrote: > > Anyway Ive patched dtml-in and dtml-tree to do this sort on a ignore_case > tag. Is this useful to anyone else? yes! :-) > And Ive thought of patching my Zope so > this is the default behaviour what does anyone else think. The next > thing to patch is ZCatalog... To be honest, why not just mail Guido (not literally! ;-) and suggest a change to python. IMNSHO, the default sort isn't as useful as it could be because of this and should be made to behave as you describe rather than like it is now. Pretty much every sort I do of strings in a python project uses the sort method below insetad of the default. This is a pain. def _default_sort(x,y): return cmp(string.lower(x),string.lower(y)) Who thinks the default python sort should stay like it is? Who thinks it should change? (reasons of course would be helpful, particularly if you want it to stay like it is ;-) cheers, Chris PS: With this being a general python issue, IMO, I've cc'ed to the python list, hope I'm not out of order... PPS: Is there such a thing as [EMAIL PROTECTED], if you see what I mean? ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] case insensitive sorts
Andy McKay wrote: > Minor nit and patch: I've found that really for me what users want to see is > a case insensitive sort of objects, not the current python case sensitive > sort. So that the order of objects from dtml-in and tree is a, A, b, B as > apposed to A, B, a, b. > > Anyway Ive patched dtml-in and dtml-tree to do this sort on a ignore_case > tag. Is this useful to anyone else? And Ive thought of patching my Zope so > this is the default behaviour what does anyone else think. The next > thing to patch is ZCatalog... The way I approached this was to have a ZPatterns attribute provider, or a method, that provides a modified version of the value I want to sort on. For example, I have a load of documents and folders with titles like Big Folder brown document "Berries for Cooking" list I wanted to present these sorted by non-case-sensitive first letter or number. So, I made a method "title_for_sorting" that stripped off any punctuation at the start, and returned the first 20 characters in all lower case. In this case, as it was a ZPatterns application, the method was presented as an attribute of the object using some skin-script. I used this attribute as a field-index in my SiteIndex ZCatalog. The reason I mention this is that sometimes case-insensitivity is not enough for sensible sorting. In this case, I had to strip out punctuation too. -- Steve Alexander Software Engineer Cat-Box limited http://www.cat-box.net ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] case insensitive sorts
Oh yeah for the ZCatalog I have two indexes one upper case and one lower case for some of my classes. No problemo. My area to attack though is the standard views such as the management interface... How's life in Lancaster? Went to school there and grew up in Garstang -- Andy McKay, Developer. ActiveState. - Original Message - From: "Steve Alexander" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Andy McKay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 11:03 AM Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] case insensitive sorts > Andy McKay wrote: > > > Minor nit and patch: I've found that really for me what users want to see is > > a case insensitive sort of objects, not the current python case sensitive > > sort. So that the order of objects from dtml-in and tree is a, A, b, B as > > apposed to A, B, a, b. > > > > Anyway Ive patched dtml-in and dtml-tree to do this sort on a ignore_case > > tag. Is this useful to anyone else? And Ive thought of patching my Zope so > > this is the default behaviour what does anyone else think. The next > > thing to patch is ZCatalog... > > > The way I approached this was to have a ZPatterns attribute provider, or > a method, that provides a modified version of the value I want to sort on. > > For example, I have a load of documents and folders with titles like > > Big Folder > > brown document > > "Berries for Cooking" list > > I wanted to present these sorted by non-case-sensitive first letter or > number. So, I made a method "title_for_sorting" that stripped off any > punctuation at the start, and returned the first 20 characters in all > lower case. In this case, as it was a ZPatterns application, the method > was presented as an attribute of the object using some skin-script. I > used this attribute as a field-index in my SiteIndex ZCatalog. > > The reason I mention this is that sometimes case-insensitivity is not > enough for sensible sorting. In this case, I had to strip out > punctuation too. > > -- > Steve Alexander > Software Engineer > Cat-Box limited > http://www.cat-box.net > ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] case insensitive sorts
Andy McKay writes: > what does anyone else think I would not like it. Dieter ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] case insensitive sorts
> Andy McKay wrote: > > > Minor nit and patch: I've found that really for me what users want to see is > > a case insensitive sort of objects, not the current python case sensitive > > sort. So that the order of objects from dtml-in and tree is a, A, b, B as > > apposed to A, B, a, b. > > > > Anyway Ive patched dtml-in and dtml-tree to do this sort on a ignore_case > > tag. Is this useful to anyone else? And Ive thought of patching my Zope so > > this is the default behaviour what does anyone else think. The next > > thing to patch is ZCatalog... > > > The way I approached this was to have a ZPatterns attribute provider, or > a method, that provides a modified version of the value I want to sort on. > > For example, I have a load of documents and folders with titles like > > Big Folder > > brown document > > "Berries for Cooking" list > > I wanted to present these sorted by non-case-sensitive first letter or > number. So, I made a method "title_for_sorting" that stripped off any > punctuation at the start, and returned the first 20 characters in all > lower case. In this case, as it was a ZPatterns application, the method > was presented as an attribute of the object using some skin-script. I > used this attribute as a field-index in my SiteIndex ZCatalog. > > The reason I mention this is that sometimes case-insensitivity is not > enough for sensible sorting. In this case, I had to strip out > punctuation too. Hm, reading this... just a loose comment. In light of the awkward search interface of ZCatalogs, would it be a good idea to make a search interface for ZCatalog ZPatterns based? This would add the possibility to make it configurable wrt case sensitivity, and to do nice things with ANDing and ORing different kinds of indexes. The only thing I can't judge whether it would be possible to make this generic enough. for-what-it's-worth Rik ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] case insensitive sorts
Dieter Maurer wrote: > > Andy McKay writes: > > what does anyone else think > > I would not like it. Why not? ;-) Chris ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] case insensitive sorts
On Wed, 06 Dec 2000 18:00:31 +, Chris Withers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >(reasons of course would be helpful, particularly if you want it to stay >like it is ;-) I noticed the smiley, so Im not sure how serious the suggestion is. Ill bite anyway: 1. Python doesnt distinguish between 8-bit-strings and byte arrays. (for example, ZODB uses 8-byte-long 'strings' as oids). Do you want a casewise sort for byte arrays too? 2. 'sort' uses 'cmp'; so effectively you are asking for string's cmp to be case insensitve. Can you demonstrate a case-sensitive collation function that is as simple as your case-insensitive one: >def _default_sort(x,y): >return cmp(string.lower(x),string.lower(y)) 3. ZCatalog stores objects in a pre-sorted order. Changing the sort order of any object (not just strings) would break *all* existing ZCatalog instances that store mixed case strings. (and other applications too - the python language reference documents that this assmption is safe at least until python3k) Toby Dickenson [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] case insensitive sorts
Chris Withers wrote:
> Who thinks the default python sort should stay like it is? Who thinks it
> should change?
> (reasons of course would be helpful, particularly if you want it to stay
> like it is ;-)
Python's sort() lets you sort based on not only strings but also tuples,
lists, and numbers, which is a very useful feature. Thus sort() is
intended to be a highly generalized method. It is useful but not ideal
for sorting text strings. What you *really* want is a second method,
perhaps in a new module (called "textops" or something similar) that
would also include multilingual text splitters and other utilities for
working with human-readable text.
BTW have you ever tried this?
data = [[], (), 0, '', {}]
data.sort()
print data
The one thing I wonder is whether the sort order is consistent between
different versions of Python. I get:
[0, {}, [], '', ()]
Shane
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Re: [Zope-dev] case insensitive sorts
On Thu, 07 Dec 2000 10:54:06 -0500, Shane Hathaway <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >The one thing I wonder is whether the sort order is consistent between >different versions of Python. I actually have a Collector bug report on exactly this question. http://classic.zope.org:8080/Collector/1219/view (Status: pending. and has been for 8 months :-( In reality, I think it is only a theoretical problem. The current implementation takes much more care than it is required to by the language reference. Indeed, extra effort was taken in Python 2.0's implementation of Unicode. Toby Dickenson [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] case insensitive sorts
Chris Withers writes: > Dieter Maurer wrote: > > Andy McKay writes: > > > what does anyone else think > > > > I would not like it. > > Why not? ;-) I would not like to see this sort order in the management screens, because I use capitalization to ensure that essential objects are at the top of the object list. Dieter ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] case insensitive sorts
But thats a result of the sorting... anyway I have in and tree patched, I'll post them tonight when I get home and let people do what they want. -- Andy McKay, Developer. ActiveState. - Original Message - From: "Dieter Maurer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Chris Withers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2000 12:00 PM Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] case insensitive sorts > Chris Withers writes: > > Dieter Maurer wrote: > > > Andy McKay writes: > > > > what does anyone else think > > > > > > I would not like it. > > > > Why not? ;-) > I would not like to see this sort order in the management > screens, because I use capitalization to ensure that > essential objects are at the top of the object list. > > > Dieter > > ___ > Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev > ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** > (Related lists - > http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce > http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ) > ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] case insensitive sorts
> 3. ZCatalog stores objects in a pre-sorted order. Changing the sort > order of any object (not just strings) would break *all* existing > ZCatalog instances that store mixed case strings. (and other > applications too - the python language reference documents that this > assmption is safe at least until python3k) Looking at this and other reasons I won't try to hack ZCatalog. I'll stick to making lower case string indexes Seems the safest all around. ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] case insensitive sorts
Shane Hathaway wrote:
>
> BTW have you ever tried this?
>
> data = [[], (), 0, '', {}]
> data.sort()
> print data
>
> The one thing I wonder is whether the sort order is consistent between
> different versions of Python. I get:
>
> [0, {}, [], '', ()]
This is consistent across Python versions. The sequence types are in
alphabetical order:
Dictionary, List, String, Tuple
This is documented somewhere.
--
Steve Alexander
Software Engineer
Cat-Box limited
http://www.cat-box.net
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Re: [Zope-dev] case insensitive sorts
Shane Hathaway wrote: > > Python's sort() lets you sort based on not only strings but also tuples, > lists, and numbers, which is a very useful feature. Thus sort() is > intended to be a highly generalized method. It is useful but not ideal > for sorting text strings. What you *really* want is a second method, > perhaps in a new module (called "textops" or something similar) that > would also include multilingual text splitters and other utilities for > working with human-readable text. I agree that's a good idea, but all I'm talking about is the simple case of sorting strings, in which python's current implementation isn't very helpful and I don't see any situation where sorting: Andrew David Wayne bart sophie is better than sorting: Andrew bart David sophie Wayne cheers, Chris ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] case insensitive sorts
Dieter Maurer wrote: > > Chris Withers writes: > > Dieter Maurer wrote: > > > Andy McKay writes: > > > > what does anyone else think > > > > > > I would not like it. > > > > Why not? ;-) > I would not like to see this sort order in the management > screens, because I use capitalization to ensure that > essential objects are at the top of the object list. Hmmm... that's like saying you'd rather not have a memory leak fixed because it gives you an excuse to buy more RAM ;-) *grinz* Chris ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] case insensitive sorts
Toby Dickenson wrote: > > >(reasons of course would be helpful, particularly if you want it to stay > >like it is ;-) > > I noticed the smiley, so Im not sure how serious the suggestion is. It was serious, the smiley was 'cos I couldn't understand why anyone would want it to stay like it is :-) > 1. Python doesnt distinguish between 8-bit-strings and byte arrays. > (for example, ZODB uses 8-byte-long 'strings' as oids). Do you want a > casewise sort for byte arrays too? I don't know. Show me why this is bad :-) > 2. 'sort' uses 'cmp'; so effectively you are asking for string's cmp > to be case insensitve. Can you demonstrate a case-sensitive collation > function that is as simple as your case-insensitive one: > >def _default_sort(x,y): > >return cmp(string.lower(x),string.lower(y)) I see your point. I guess cmp is implemented in C? How about a third optional argument? def _case_sensitive_sort(x,y): return cmp(x,y,string.CASE_SENSITIVE) def _default_sort(x,y): return cmp(x,y) > 3. ZCatalog stores objects in a pre-sorted order. Changing the sort > order of any object (not just strings) would break *all* existing > ZCatalog instances that store mixed case strings. (and other > applications too - the python language reference documents that this > assmption is safe at least until python3k) Sorry, don't qutie follow this... explanation for a simpleton? ;-) cheers, Chris ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
RE: [Zope-dev] case insensitive sorts
> Dieter Maurer wrote: > > > > Chris Withers writes: > > > Dieter Maurer wrote: > > > > Andy McKay writes: > > > > > what does anyone else think > > > > > > > > I would not like it. > > > > > > Why not? ;-) > > I would not like to see this sort order in the management > > screens, because I use capitalization to ensure that > > essential objects are at the top of the object list. > > Hmmm... that's like saying you'd rather not have a memory leak fixed > because it gives you an excuse to buy more RAM ;-) > > *grinz* > > Chris > I would have said its like saying your not going to fix the hole in your water pipe because you use it to fill up your kettle without getting out of bed, and if you fixed it then you would have to walk to the sink. :-) Needless to say I agree with Chris. -Andy ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] case insensitive sorts
See below (nothing earth shattering tho) ;) - Original Message - From: "Chris Withers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Shane Hathaway" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 10:58 AM Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] case insensitive sorts > Shane Hathaway wrote: > > > > Python's sort() lets you sort based on not only strings but also tuples, > > lists, and numbers, which is a very useful feature. Thus sort() is > > intended to be a highly generalized method. It is useful but not ideal > > for sorting text strings. What you *really* want is a second method, > > perhaps in a new module (called "textops" or something similar) that > > would also include multilingual text splitters and other utilities for > > working with human-readable text. > > I agree that's a good idea, but all I'm talking about is the simple case > of sorting strings, in which python's current implementation isn't very > helpful and I don't see any situation where sorting: > > Andrew > David > Wayne > bart > sophie > > is better than sorting: > > Andrew > bart > David > sophie > Wayne That's only because you use NT (ach spit). ;) > > cheers, > > Chris > > ___ > Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev > ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** > (Related lists - > http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce > http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ) ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
RE: [Zope-dev] case insensitive sorts
> > Andrew > > David > > Wayne > > bart > > sophie > > > > is better than sorting: > > > > Andrew > > bart > > David > > sophie > > Wayne > > That's only because you use NT (ach spit). ;) > Thats not actually true. It is how python behaves on WinNt, Win9X, Linux, etc (I have tested this) -Andy ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] case insensitive sorts
Andy Dawkins wrote: > > > Dieter Maurer wrote: > > > > > > Chris Withers writes: > > > > Dieter Maurer wrote: > > > > > Andy McKay writes: > > > > > > what does anyone else think > > > > > > > > > > I would not like it. > > > > > > > > Why not? ;-) > > > I would not like to see this sort order in the management > > > screens, because I use capitalization to ensure that > > > essential objects are at the top of the object list. > > > > Hmmm... that's like saying you'd rather not have a memory leak fixed > > because it gives you an excuse to buy more RAM ;-) [snip] > > I would have said its like saying your not going to fix the hole in your > water pipe because you use it to fill up your kettle without getting out of > bed, and if you fixed it then you would have to walk to the sink. [snip] I have to agree with Dieter here that a useful side affect is lost if the sort was case insensitive. I myself found it a bit strange at first, but now I am using different naming rules for different objects so they mingle together. (i.e. Interface level objects get caps, logic level objects don't). Your analogies imply that this behavior is a bug or an unintended flaw in the design. I would argue that it is intentional. Unix file systems work the same way. Try doing an "ls" with mixed case files and you'll see what I mean. Anyhow if this goes away, I think the management interface would need to have ability to sort by something other than id to compensate. To a certain degree a sort by meta type would be similar for me, but certainly less flexible, and wouldn't help compensate for the scaling problems of the ZMI. It just goes to show how even obscure and subtle features like this can be important (to some at least). At least now you have the flexibility to not use this "feature" by using the same naming conventions for everything. -- | Casey Duncan | Kaivo, Inc. | [EMAIL PROTECTED] `--> ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
RE: [Zope-dev] case insensitive sorts
> Your analogies imply that this behavior is a bug or an unintended flaw > in the design. I would argue that it is intentional. Unix file systems > work the same way. Try doing an "ls" with mixed case files and you'll > see what I mean. > It isn't a flaw. It seems as though it was overlooked. The sort on text works by sorting the data by its ascii value. Capital letters have a lower ascii value than lower case letters. i.e. A-Z = 65 - 90 a-z = 97 - 122 The arguement is that the sort should probably go AaBbCcDdEeFf.etc -Andy ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] case insensitive sorts
Andy Dawkins wrote: > > > Your analogies imply that this behavior is a bug or an unintended flaw > > in the design. I would argue that it is intentional. Unix file systems > > work the same way. Try doing an "ls" with mixed case files and you'll > > see what I mean. > > > > It isn't a flaw. It seems as though it was overlooked. > > The sort on text works by sorting the data by its ascii value. > Capital letters have a lower ascii value than lower case letters. > i.e. > A-Z = 65 - 90 > a-z = 97 - 122 > > The arguement is that the sort should probably go > AaBbCcDdEeFf.etc > > -Andy > My point is that the sorting is intentionally Unix-like and case sensitive on purpose. Not due to laziness. But, perhaps the reason Unix is like that to begin with is due to laziness anyhow 8^). We'll never know for sure. -- | Casey Duncan | Kaivo, Inc. | [EMAIL PROTECTED] `--> ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] case insensitive sorts
My main point is that the user who visits my site does not care about python, Unix, NT or any wierd metaphors about kettles. They want information fast and most users expect case insensitive sorts. Its simpler and easy. I think having the ignore_case option for a -tree and -in helps Zope by increasing the ease of development and friendliness to the user. -- Andy McKay, Developer. ActiveState. - Original Message - From: "Casey Duncan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Andy Dawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 8:17 AM Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] case insensitive sorts > Andy Dawkins wrote: > > > > > Your analogies imply that this behavior is a bug or an unintended flaw > > > in the design. I would argue that it is intentional. Unix file systems > > > work the same way. Try doing an "ls" with mixed case files and you'll > > > see what I mean. > > > > > > > It isn't a flaw. It seems as though it was overlooked. > > > > The sort on text works by sorting the data by its ascii value. > > Capital letters have a lower ascii value than lower case letters. > > i.e. > > A-Z = 65 - 90 > > a-z = 97 - 122 > > > > The arguement is that the sort should probably go > > AaBbCcDdEeFf.etc > > > > -Andy > > > My point is that the sorting is intentionally Unix-like and case > sensitive on purpose. Not due to laziness. But, perhaps the reason Unix > is like that to begin with is due to laziness anyhow 8^). We'll never > know for sure. > > -- > | Casey Duncan > | Kaivo, Inc. > | [EMAIL PROTECTED] > `--> > > ___ > Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev > ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** > (Related lists - > http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce > http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ) > ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] case insensitive sorts
Andy McKay wrote: > > They want information fast and most users expect case insensitive sorts. Its > simpler and easy. I think having the ignore_case option for a -tree and -in > helps Zope by increasing the ease of development and friendliness to the > user. And my point was that this is so universally true that the _pthyon_ sort function (which is at fault here) should be fixed :-) cheers, Chris ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] case insensitive sorts
Hmm im actually not so sure on that. Currently you can do a sort either way, if you fix it so its only case sensitive we'll end up like Visual Basic :) Fixing python is a question for the python list and I'd be scared to ask it there... -- Andy McKay, Developer. ActiveState. - Original Message - From: "Chris Withers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Andy McKay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "Casey Duncan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Andy Dawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 8:46 AM Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] case insensitive sorts > Andy McKay wrote: > > > > They want information fast and most users expect case insensitive sorts. Its > > simpler and easy. I think having the ignore_case option for a -tree and -in > > helps Zope by increasing the ease of development and friendliness to the > > user. > > And my point was that this is so universally true that the _pthyon_ sort > function (which is at fault here) should be fixed :-) > > cheers, > > Chris > ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] case insensitive sorts
Andy McKay wrote: > > Hmm im actually not so sure on that. Currently you can do a sort either way, > if you fix it so its only case sensitive we'll end up like Visual Basic :) Actually, I'd like to see it 'fixed' so it's only case insensitive: Alan betty Carl Wilbur > Fixing python is a question for the python list and I'd be scared to ask it > there... I'm sure I copied one of these messages to the python list for that very reason but it didn't get any response. Ah well, I'll copy this one there as well and see what happens ;-) cheers, Chris ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] case insensitive sorts
Chris Withers writes: > Andrew > bart > David > sophie > Wayne Why in hell do you switch caseness for similar objects? If you apply some naming conventions, such as "objects start with a Capital letter, verb with a lowercase letter", you may find Python's sorting order usefull. Dieter ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] case insensitive sorts
Dieter Maurer wrote: > > Chris Withers writes: > > Andrew > > bart > > David > > sophie > > Wayne > Why in hell do you switch caseness for similar objects? Who said anything about objects? I was just talking about lists of strings and in general, people prefer sorting based on the character to take precedence over sorting based on the case of that character. Sadly, python's default sort does it the other way round :-( Chris ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] case insensitive sorts
Chris Withers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Andy McKay wrote: > > > > They want information fast and most users expect case insensitive sorts. Its > > simpler and easy. I think having the ignore_case option for a -tree and -in > > helps Zope by increasing the ease of development and friendliness to the > > user. > > And my point was that this is so universally true that the _pthyon_ sort > function (which is at fault here) should be fixed :-) Python's sort already allows you to pass an alternate comparison function:: [/var/home/tres] $ python Python 1.5.2 (#1, Feb 1 2000, 16:32:16) [GCC egcs-2.91.66 19990314/Linux (egcs- on linux-i386 Copyright 1991-1995 Stichting Mathematisch Centrum, Amsterdam >>> foo = [ 'z', 'y', 'x' ] >>> foo.sort() >>> foo ['x', 'y', 'z'] >>> foo.sort( lambda x, y: cmp(y,x) ) >>> foo ['z', 'y', 'x'] I believe Andy's patch makes use of this feature. You are missing a couple of points if you *require* a case-insensitive sort: * collation (which letters belong together) is highly locale sensitive (e.g., does a-accent-grave sort with a? etc.) * Should strings which differ only in case be equal (*NOT*!) Tres. -- === Tres Seaver[EMAIL PROTECTED] Digital Creations "Zope Dealers" http://www.zope.org ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
RE: [Zope-dev] case insensitive sorts
> > * collation (which letters belong together) is highly locale >sensitive (e.g., does a-accent-grave sort with a? etc.) > A Fair point. The answer is whatever seems _naturally_ correct from a users point of view. I think the answer is yes. Elephant entropy écrit élan i.e. In the order in which they would appear in a dictionary. > * Should strings which differ only in case be equal (*NOT*!) > 'Ant' is not equal to 'ant' but 'Ant'<'ant'<'Ante'<'ante' i.e. Ant ant Ante ante Would be a sensible sort order. I hope that makes things a bit clearer. -Andy ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] case insensitive sorts
Chris Withers wrote: > > Dieter Maurer wrote: > > > > Chris Withers writes: > > > Andrew > > > bart > > > David > > > sophie > > > Wayne > > Why in hell do you switch caseness for similar objects? > > Who said anything about objects? I was just talking about lists of > strings and in general, people prefer sorting based on the character to > take precedence over sorting based on the case of that character. > > Sadly, python's default sort does it the other way round :-( This is not wrong. Again, if the default sort tried to sort case-insensitively, it would yield incorrect results for existing code that sorts lists of strings containing data rather than text. And again, what you really want is a "textops" module that does something like this: def sort_strings(data): sortable_data = list(map(lambda s: (lower(s), s), data)) sortable_data.sort() return map(lambda s: s[1], sortable_data) Shane ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] case insensitive sorts
Shane Hathaway wrote: > def sort_strings(data): > sortable_data = list(map(lambda s: (lower(s), s), data)) > sortable_data.sort() > return map(lambda s: s[1], sortable_data) ... Or better, you could pass a comparison function to sort() like Tres suggested. :-) Shane ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] case insensitive sorts
Chris Withers writes: > Dieter Maurer wrote: > > > > Chris Withers writes: > > > Andrew > > > bart > > > David > > > sophie > > > Wayne > > Why in hell do you switch caseness for similar objects? > > Who said anything about objects? Maybe, I should have said subjects. Your example strings seem to name persons. It is very strange (and should be punished, as it is by Python's default sort ;-)) to use caseness inconsistently for these same type subjects/objects/entities (whatever you like). I am not against an option to specify what comparison function should be used for sorting (when I would implement it, I would probably follow Python's sort interface and provide an optional function rather than have a collection of attributes specifying the sort order). However, I am against a change of the sort order in the *management interface* (unless I can easily switch back). The reason: I make sensible use of the ASCII based sort order and would not like to loose it. Dieter ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] case insensitive sorts
Shane Hathaway wrote: > > Shane Hathaway wrote: > > def sort_strings(data): > > sortable_data = list(map(lambda s: (lower(s), s), data)) > > sortable_data.sort() > > return map(lambda s: s[1], sortable_data) > > ... Or better, you could pass a comparison function to sort() like Tres > suggested. :-) This is where this whole thread started ;-) We end up using a comparision function every time we call sort, which is messy and results in a lot of duplicated code... My suggestion was for the default sort function to change so that when you want the sorting that makes sense to humans, you'd just have to do: list.sort() ...and when you wanted sort as it is now, then you could something like: list.sort(lambda x, y: old_cmp(y,x)) But this thread has lost noth its ends, so to speak, so I shall duck out ;-) cheers, Chris ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
