[Zope-dev] zope.browser?

2008-12-11 Thread Martijn Faassen
Hi there,

I saw that Roger Ineichen created and released a package called 
zope.browser.

I assume that this package is intended to reduce dependencies, which is 
a project I applaud. So far I don't see any effect of this - in fact 
several packages now have an added dependency to zope.browser that 
wasn't there before. I'm sure there's a bit of the plan I don't 
understand yet - please enlighten me?

Regards,

Martijn

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Re: [Zope-dev] zope.browser?

2008-12-11 Thread Martijn Faassen
Martijn Faassen wrote:
> Hi there,
> 
> I saw that Roger Ineichen created and released a package called 
> zope.browser.
> 
> I assume that this package is intended to reduce dependencies, which is 
> a project I applaud. So far I don't see any effect of this - in fact 
> several packages now have an added dependency to zope.browser that 
> wasn't there before. I'm sure there's a bit of the plan I don't 
> understand yet - please enlighten me?

Looking more, I've noticed that zc.sourcefactory replaces the dependency 
on zope.app.form with this package. That seems to be an improvement.

Since I'm quite interested in this project, I'd like to hear much more 
about how we will determine which kind of dependency surgery we'll do next.

Regards.

Martijn


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Re: [Zope-dev] zope.browser?

2008-12-11 Thread Brian Sutherland
On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 03:20:25PM +0100, Martijn Faassen wrote:
> I'm sure there's a bit of the plan I don't 
> understand yet - please enlighten me?

AFAIKR, it's a package that mostly contains interfaces for well accepted
browser design paradigms. That way different implementations can share
the same interfaces.

Obviously we've gotta be careful of what goes in there.

-- 
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Re: [Zope-dev] zope.browser?

2008-12-11 Thread Roger Ineichen
Hi Martijn
  

> Betreff: Re: [Zope-dev] zope.browser?
> 
> Martijn Faassen wrote:
> > Hi there,
> > 
> > I saw that Roger Ineichen created and released a package called 
> > zope.browser.
> > 
> > I assume that this package is intended to reduce 
> dependencies, which 
> > is a project I applaud. So far I don't see any effect of this - in 
> > fact several packages now have an added dependency to zope.browser 
> > that wasn't there before. I'm sure there's a bit of the 
> plan I don't 
> > understand yet - please enlighten me?
> 
> Looking more, I've noticed that zc.sourcefactory replaces the 
> dependency on zope.app.form with this package. That seems to 
> be an improvement.
> 
> Since I'm quite interested in this project, I'd like to hear 
> much more about how we will determine which kind of 
> dependency surgery we'll do next.

I just moved the zope.app.form.interfaces.ITerms interface
to this package. Which makes it possible to implement ISource
and their widgets in z3c.form wihtout to depend on zope.app.browser.
(zagy branch in z3c.form)

I didn't see any other (browser) interface which should go to 
this package because of real dependency problems yet. But sure
if you see something which can solve problems, feel free
to move interfaces, dependency less components or helper
methods to this package.

I think everything which goes to zope.browser must take 
very care on dependencies.

I guess one important rule should be, zope.browser
should depend on anything. Probably an exception
whould be zope.schema, zope.messageid. 

Any other ideas?

Regards
Roger Ineichen

> Regards.
> 
> Martijn
> 
> 
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Re: [Zope-dev] zope.browser?

2008-12-11 Thread Robert Niederreiter
Hi,

Am Donnerstag, den 11.12.2008, 17:13 +0100 schrieb Roger Ineichen:

> 
> I just moved the zope.app.form.interfaces.ITerms interface
> to this package. Which makes it possible to implement ISource
> and their widgets in z3c.form wihtout to depend on zope.app.browser.
> (zagy branch in z3c.form)
> 
> I didn't see any other (browser) interface which should go to 
> this package because of real dependency problems yet. But sure
> if you see something which can solve problems, feel free
> to move interfaces, dependency less components or helper
> methods to this package.
We have written browser helper tools in a package named
cornerstone.browser. especially IRequestMixin here 

http://dev.plone.org/collective/browser/cornerstone.browser/trunk/cornerstone/browser/interfaces.py

might be a candidate for this or such a component.

We use it most of the time as mixin for browser views, content
providers, menu items and everything else which has to deal with
application state data, urls and queries.

For IRequestMixin the implementation is almost finished (one function
and some testing left - see base.py and base.txt if you're interested
in), and for the pointed usecases there are convenience implementations.

It would be great to see this or something like this in zope.browser
package, dealing with request data and url's is almost every day's
business and always more code than i could be.

regards, robert

> 
> I think everything which goes to zope.browser must take 
> very care on dependencies.
> 
> I guess one important rule should be, zope.browser
> should depend on anything. Probably an exception
> whould be zope.schema, zope.messageid. 
> 
> Any other ideas?
> 
> Regards
> Roger Ineichen
> 
> > Regards.
> > 
> > Martijn
> > 
> > 
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Re: [Zope-dev] zope.browser?

2008-12-11 Thread Martijn Faassen
Hi there,

Robert Niederreiter wrote:
[snip]
> We have written browser helper tools in a package named
> cornerstone.browser. especially IRequestMixin here 
> 
> http://dev.plone.org/collective/browser/cornerstone.browser/trunk/cornerstone/browser/interfaces.py
> 
> might be a candidate for this or such a component.

While this is certainly an interesting package, I think the idea behind 
zope.browser is to keep dependencies to an absolute minimum. I'm not 
sure I see the point of just putting the *interface* "IRequestMixin" in 
zope.browser, and the implementation would almost certainly pull in more 
dependencies, right? (by the way, an interface called 'Mixin'? Isn't the 
mixin nature a property of a class, not an interface?)

I think we should be careful not to introduce more functionality into 
zope.browser right now that isn't moved from some other zope.* package. 
The goal after all, as I understand it, is to reduce installation 
dependencies.

Regards,

Martijn

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Re: [Zope-dev] zope.browser?

2008-12-11 Thread Robert Niederreiter

Am Donnerstag, den 11.12.2008, 18:18 +0100 schrieb Martijn Faassen:
> Hi there,
> 
> Robert Niederreiter wrote:
> [snip]
> > We have written browser helper tools in a package named
> > cornerstone.browser. especially IRequestMixin here 
> > 
> > http://dev.plone.org/collective/browser/cornerstone.browser/trunk/cornerstone/browser/interfaces.py
> > 
> > might be a candidate for this or such a component.
> 
> While this is certainly an interesting package, I think the idea behind 
> zope.browser is to keep dependencies to an absolute minimum. I'm not 
> sure I see the point of just putting the *interface* "IRequestMixin" in 
> zope.browser, and the implementation would almost certainly pull in more 
> dependencies, right?
It would be possible to strip the implementation dependencies down to
zope.interface and zope.component if IAbsoluteUrl (iirc) is moved as
well and the ICookiePrefix default implementation returns something
static.

> (by the way, an interface called 'Mixin'? Isn't the 
> mixin nature a property of a class, not an interface?)
Yes ;), the naming is not the best choice. The intention was to hint the
reader how an implementation of this interface is supposed to be used.

> 
> I think we should be careful not to introduce more functionality into 
> zope.browser right now that isn't moved from some other zope.* package. 
> The goal after all, as I understand it, is to reduce installation 
> dependencies.
you queried ideas. right?

regards, robert

> 
> Regards,
> 
> Martijn
> 
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Re: [Zope-dev] zope.browser?

2008-12-11 Thread Stephan Richter
On Thursday 11 December 2008, Martijn Faassen wrote:
> I think we should be careful not to introduce more functionality into
> zope.browser right now that isn't moved from some other zope.* package.
> The goal after all, as I understand it, is to reduce installation
> dependencies.

+1

Regards,
Stephan
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Re: [Zope-dev] zope.browser?

2008-12-11 Thread Roger Ineichen
Hi Martijn

> Betreff: Re: [Zope-dev] zope.browser?

[...]
 
> I think we should be careful not to introduce more 
> functionality into zope.browser right now that isn't moved 
> from some other zope.* package. 
> The goal after all, as I understand it, is to reduce 
> installation dependencies.

Yes, absolutly, nothing else right now. I came to a point
where I really like to get rid of zope.app.rotterdam, 
zope.app.authentication and many other packages in my 
simple project setup. Right now, we have a very nice
component architecture, but we can't use them as we like.
There are to many packages grouped together with each other
on zcml level or for just for using some minimal things.

The next step whould be moving the IPasswordManager
implementation from zope.app.authentication to
zope.app.security. This makes it possible to provide
a zope.app.authentication less zope.app.testing package.

Also zope.app.keyreference and zope.app.intid should 
get ported to zope.* packages.

Another part which I'll cleanup is the zope.app.i18n
configure.zcml. This zcml file registers in line: 5 -28
different components from totaly different packages.
Each of them should go to the right package where the 
components are defined. It doesn't make sense to configure
them in zope/app/i18n/confiure.zcml.

btw
All I like to do is to remove the dependencies which are
not needed for a minimal installation. But everything
should be backward compatible and just work like before.
I will not introduce new dependencies or implement
new components. It's all about cleanup existing things.

But as far as I can see, most people are happy with
removing dependencies and make progress in this direction.

Any participation or discussion is very welcome!
I just like to keep the discussion to a minimum
and be a more productive.

I'll promiss to take care and do nothing which doesn't
make sense.

Does this Ok and does it make sense for you?

Regards
Roger Ineichen

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Re: [Zope-dev] zope.browser?

2008-12-11 Thread Roger Ineichen
Hi Robert

> Betreff: Re: [Zope-dev] zope.browser?
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Am Donnerstag, den 11.12.2008, 17:13 +0100 schrieb Roger Ineichen:
> 
> > 
> > I just moved the zope.app.form.interfaces.ITerms interface to this 
> > package. Which makes it possible to implement ISource and their 
> > widgets in z3c.form wihtout to depend on zope.app.browser.
> > (zagy branch in z3c.form)
> > 
> > I didn't see any other (browser) interface which should go to this 
> > package because of real dependency problems yet. But sure 
> if you see 
> > something which can solve problems, feel free to move interfaces, 
> > dependency less components or helper methods to this package.
> We have written browser helper tools in a package named 
> cornerstone.browser. especially IRequestMixin here 
> 
> http://dev.plone.org/collective/browser/cornerstone.browser/tr
> unk/cornerstone/browser/interfaces.py
> 
> might be a candidate for this or such a component.

I like this. But we should not mix the cleanup refactoring
with any other new things. I think this will confuse people
and will give us less aceptance for the really needed cleanup.

Let's keep this pending and discuss at a later time again.

Regards
Roger Ineichen

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Re: [Zope-dev] zope.browser?

2008-12-12 Thread Robert Niederreiter
Hi,

Am Freitag, den 12.12.2008, 05:06 +0100 schrieb Roger Ineichen:

...

> 
> Let's keep this pending and discuss at a later time again.
ok. please let me know when there's cleard space for features,

regards, robert

> 
> Regards
> Roger Ineichen
> 


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Re: [Zope-dev] zope.browser?

2008-12-12 Thread Christian Zagrodnick
On 2008-12-11 17:13:06 +0100, "Roger Ineichen"  said:

> Hi Martijn
> 
> 
>> Betreff: Re: [Zope-dev] zope.browser?
>> 
>> Martijn Faassen wrote:
>>> Hi there,
>>> 
>>> I saw that Roger Ineichen created and released a package called
>>> zope.browser.
>>> 
>>> I assume that this package is intended to reduce
>> dependencies, which
>>> is a project I applaud. So far I don't see any effect of this - in
>>> fact several packages now have an added dependency to zope.browser
>>> that wasn't there before. I'm sure there's a bit of the
>> plan I don't
>>> understand yet - please enlighten me?
>> 
>> Looking more, I've noticed that zc.sourcefactory replaces the
>> dependency on zope.app.form with this package. That seems to
>> be an improvement.
>> 
>> Since I'm quite interested in this project, I'd like to hear
>> much more about how we will determine which kind of
>> dependency surgery we'll do next.
> 
> I just moved the zope.app.form.interfaces.ITerms interface
> to this package. Which makes it possible to implement ISource
> and their widgets in z3c.form wihtout to depend on zope.app.browser.
> (zagy branch in z3c.form)

That's good. One thing which is not good is that you deprecated the use 
of ITerms from zope.app.form. I'd just leave the reference/import there 
like we did with ISite in zope.app.component.


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Re: [Zope-dev] zope.browser?

2008-12-12 Thread Martijn Faassen
Hey,

Christian Zagrodnick wrote:
[snip]
> That's good. One thing which is not good is that you deprecated the use 
> of ITerms from zope.app.form. I'd just leave the reference/import there 
> like we did with ISite in zope.app.component.

Why is such a deprecation warning bad? Wouldn't this encourage people to 
update their code?

Regards,

Martijn



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Re: [Zope-dev] zope.browser?

2008-12-12 Thread Brian Sutherland
On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 02:24:09PM +0100, Martijn Faassen wrote:
> Hey,
> 
> Christian Zagrodnick wrote:
> [snip]
> > That's good. One thing which is not good is that you deprecated the use 
> > of ITerms from zope.app.form. I'd just leave the reference/import there 
> > like we did with ISite in zope.app.component.
> 
> Why is such a deprecation warning bad? Wouldn't this encourage people to 
> update their code?

One issue is that it's impossible to write code that's "deprecation
warning free" and works across multiple versions of dependencies.

That forces people to become accustomed to seeing and ignoring
deprecation warnings.

> 
> Regards,
> 
> Martijn
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Zope-dev] zope.browser?

2008-12-12 Thread Christian Zagrodnick
On 2008-12-12 14:24:09 +0100, Martijn Faassen  said:

> Hey,
> 
> Christian Zagrodnick wrote:
> [snip]
>> That's good. One thing which is not good is that you deprecated the use
>> of ITerms from zope.app.form. I'd just leave the reference/import there
>> like we did with ISite in zope.app.component.
> 
> Why is such a deprecation warning bad? Wouldn't this encourage people to
> update their code?


A deprecation warning isn't bad. But I think we should not deprecate 
the use of ITerms from zope.app.form. I don't see a gain in this API 
change.

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Re: [Zope-dev] zope.browser?

2008-12-12 Thread Robert Niederreiter
Hi,

Am Freitag, den 12.12.2008, 15:51 +0100 schrieb Christian Zagrodnick:
> On 2008-12-12 14:24:09 +0100, Martijn Faassen  said:
> 
> > Hey,
> > 
> > Christian Zagrodnick wrote:
> > [snip]
> >> That's good. One thing which is not good is that you deprecated the use
> >> of ITerms from zope.app.form. I'd just leave the reference/import there
> >> like we did with ISite in zope.app.component.
> > 
> > Why is such a deprecation warning bad? Wouldn't this encourage people to
> > update their code?
> 
> 
> A deprecation warning isn't bad. But I think we should not deprecate 
> the use of ITerms from zope.app.form. I don't see a gain in this API 
> change.
Imo it's a bad idea to keep exactly the same interface in 2 places. At
least i don't see an improvement or convenience in keeping it.

the only real reason to keep it is for legacy reasons, but import
adoption should not be that hard ;)

regards, robert

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Re: [Zope-dev] zope.browser/trunk/buildout.cfg.

2010-06-02 Thread Tres Seaver
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Tres Seaver wrote:
> Log message for revision 112947:
>   This extra has been gone for a month now.
>   
>   How were we not seeing failing tests?
>   
> 
> Changed:
>   U   zope.browser/trunk/buildout.cfg
> 
> -=-
> Modified: zope.browser/trunk/buildout.cfg
> ===
> --- zope.browser/trunk/buildout.cfg   2010-06-03 03:12:49 UTC (rev 112946)
> +++ zope.browser/trunk/buildout.cfg   2010-06-03 03:19:48 UTC (rev 112947)
> @@ -4,7 +4,7 @@
>  
>  [test]
>  recipe = zc.recipe.testrunner
> -eggs = zope.browser [test]
> +eggs = zope.browser
>  
>  [py]
>  recipe = zc.recipe.egg

Can anybody explain why zope.browser's tests have been passing in the
buildbots?  The buildout wouldn't even run with the no-longer-there
extra called out like that.


Tres.
- --
===
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Re: [Zope-dev] zope.browser/trunk/buildout.cfg.

2010-06-03 Thread Jan-Jaap Driessen
On 3 June 2010 05:34, Tres Seaver  wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Tres Seaver wrote:
>> Log message for revision 112947:
>>   This extra has been gone for a month now.
>>
>>   How were we not seeing failing tests?
>>
>>
>> Changed:
>>   U   zope.browser/trunk/buildout.cfg
>>
>> -=-
>> Modified: zope.browser/trunk/buildout.cfg
>> ===
>> --- zope.browser/trunk/buildout.cfg   2010-06-03 03:12:49 UTC (rev 112946)
>> +++ zope.browser/trunk/buildout.cfg   2010-06-03 03:19:48 UTC (rev 112947)
>> @@ -4,7 +4,7 @@
>>
>>  [test]
>>  recipe = zc.recipe.testrunner
>> -eggs = zope.browser [test]
>> +eggs = zope.browser
>>
>>  [py]
>>  recipe = zc.recipe.egg
>
> Can anybody explain why zope.browser's tests have been passing in the
> buildbots?  The buildout wouldn't even run with the no-longer-there
> extra called out like that.
>
>
> Tres.
> - --
> ===
> Tres Seaver          +1 540-429-0999          tsea...@palladion.com
> Palladion Software   "Excellence by Design"    http://palladion.com
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The zope.browser trunk was, until recently (r112978), not part of the
buildbot at dev.thehealthagency.com.
The compattest of the zope toolkit will test the released version of
zope.browser [1]. The compattest does not 'see' the zope.browser
buildout.cfg, as it is only looking at the egg.

Feel free to add repos to the `trunks` section of
svn.zope.org/repos/main/Sandbox/janjaapdriessen/buildbot/buildout.cfg
, the changes will be picked up by dev.thehealthagency.com every hour.

1) 
http://dev.thehealthagency.com/buildbot/builders/ztk%20slave-ubuntu32/builds/70/steps/test/logs/stdio

-- 
Jan-Jaap Driessen
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Re: [Zope-dev] zope.browser/trunk/buildout.cfg.

2010-06-03 Thread Tres Seaver
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Jan-Jaap Driessen wrote:

> The zope.browser trunk was, until recently (r112978), not part of the
> buildbot at dev.thehealthagency.com.
> The compattest of the zope toolkit will test the released version of
> zope.browser [1]. The compattest does not 'see' the zope.browser
> buildout.cfg, as it is only looking at the egg.

> Feel free to add repos to the `trunks` section of
> svn.zope.org/repos/main/Sandbox/janjaapdriessen/buildbot/buildout.cfg
> , the changes will be picked up by dev.thehealthagency.com every hour.

> 1) 
> http://dev.thehealthagency.com/buildbot/builders/ztk%20slave-ubuntu32/builds/70/steps/test/logs/stdio


I figured out why we haven't seen failing tests:  zope.browser's tests
are run from within the zopetoolkit buildout, which bypasses each
project's own buildout.cfg.

I haven't messed with your buildbot stuff, since that the puzzle is
solved (even if it existed only in my own mind).


Tres.
- --
===
Tres Seaver  +1 540-429-0999  tsea...@palladion.com
Palladion Software   "Excellence by Design"http://palladion.com
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