Re: [Zope3-dev] The vision thing
Benji York wrote: Geoff Davis wrote: * What can we learn from Rails / Django / TurboGears? Fun presentation along those lines: http://oodt.jpl.nasa.gov/better-web-app.mov One of the best put together movies I've seen. Yeah, really awesome! Should have won the Oscar! ;) Another relevant link: http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2006/03/04/zend-framework-is-out/ i.e. the PHP community trying to imitate us (+ an Eclipse-based ide, for which there is also an interesting proposa, cf. http://blogs.nuxeo.com/sections/blogs/fermigier/2006_02_13_about-the-eclipse - but unfortunately not much traction). S. -- Stéfane Fermigier, Tel: +33 (0)6 63 04 12 77 (mobile). Nuxeo Collaborative Portal Server: http://www.nuxeo.com/cps Gestion de contenu web / portail collaboratif / groupware / open source! ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: traceback when running tests for zope.app.component
jürgen Kartnaller wrote: Benji York wrote: I emailed the committer Friday about this, but no fix has been forthcoming, so I reverted the offending revisions. Hopefully a revised version can be reapplied soon. Still the same problem after your revert ! The tests pass on my box and on all the buildbot machines (and they didn't before). Perhaps you're seeing a different problem. I didn't compare the tracebacks to be sure. -- Benji York Senior Software Engineer Zope Corporation ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: [Zope-dev] Two visions
Jim Fulton wrote: [snip] I wasn't trying to define app server. I was describing the Zope app server. As long as you realize you do risk confusion even by saying 'Zope app server'. To me, Zope 3 is an app server, so when you say 'the Zope app server' will include its functionalities too. Regards, Martijn ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Zope3-dev] Re: traceback when running tests for zope.app.component
Benji York wrote: jürgen Kartnaller wrote: Benji York wrote: I emailed the committer Friday about this, but no fix has been forthcoming, so I reverted the offending revisions. Hopefully a revised version can be reapplied soon. Still the same problem after your revert ! The tests pass on my box and on all the buildbot machines (and they didn't before). Perhaps you're seeing a different problem. I didn't compare the tracebacks to be sure. The traceback only occurs when running the test for zope.app.component : python test.py --package=zope.app.component A full test runs without problems. Jürgen ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Zope3-dev] Re: traceback when running tests for zope.app.component
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 j.kartnaller wrote: Benji York wrote: jürgen Kartnaller wrote: Benji York wrote: I emailed the committer Friday about this, but no fix has been forthcoming, so I reverted the offending revisions. Hopefully a revised version can be reapplied soon. Still the same problem after your revert ! The tests pass on my box and on all the buildbot machines (and they didn't before). Perhaps you're seeing a different problem. I didn't compare the tracebacks to be sure. The traceback only occurs when running the test for zope.app.component : python test.py --package=zope.app.component A full test runs without problems. A trunk checkout fails for me with the same traceback when run with that command line. Tres. - -- === Tres Seaver +1 202-558-7113 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Palladion Software Excellence by Designhttp://palladion.com -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFEDFP2+gerLs4ltQ4RAkyOAJ9kIr6yWO7iK9sAkDOA8LxOTmHhdACfV+FU bt9FlEcGL/TCSBWQYzXT3kU= =w0Hz -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] The vision thing
On Mon, 2006-03-06 at 09:45 +, Stefane Fermigier wrote: Benji York wrote: Geoff Davis wrote: * What can we learn from Rails / Django / TurboGears? Fun presentation along those lines: http://oodt.jpl.nasa.gov/better-web-app.mov I saw that last week from some internal folks at my work. While I despise TTW development, I will admit this presentation changed my opinion some on the audience whom might find it useful. Now if we can just make it so whatever they do TTW can be replicated as a base FS product for easy migration to the *right way* :) Would be a good video to highlight on zope.org (when it's done). Andrew One of the best put together movies I've seen. Yeah, really awesome! Should have won the Oscar! ;) Another relevant link: http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2006/03/04/zend-framework-is-out/ i.e. the PHP community trying to imitate us (+ an Eclipse-based ide, for which there is also an interesting proposa, cf. http://blogs.nuxeo.com/sections/blogs/fermigier/2006_02_13_about-the-eclipse - but unfortunately not much traction). S. ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Zope Eggs
Cool effort. One thing that I noticed in Rails when I downloaded it this weekend was how you installed plug-ins. Very easy. There are various 'sources' that can be loaded up which work, I assume, in a similar manner to how you can point easy_install at a web page and tell it 'find links'. To install a plugin into an application instance (similar to a Zope instance home), it's just an effort of: $ script/plugin install acts_as_taggable The plugin is found, and installed in the instance home equivalent. This uses 'gems' under the hood from the looks of it, and adds in the knowledge of a Rails application layout. It was pretty gratifying, being able to start adding in functionality so easily. I think a good goal would be to have something like this: A Zope instance home aware package/egg loader, so that in an instance home you could add in packages like this: $ bin/package install zc.catalog $ bin/package install hurry On 3/5/06, Nathan R. Yergler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: During the Zope3 sprint following PyCon, Paul and I, with Jim's guidance, began work on exploring how Zope can utilize eggs and be packaged using eggs. Since we're still experimenting with how eggs will be used, I wrote a script, zpkgegg, which reads the zpkg configuration information for a package and generates a standard setup.py from which an egg and vanilla sdist can be generated. You can find the script in subversion in the projectsupport project. For a brief overview of how the script is used, see README.txt (in http://svn.zope.org/projectsupport/trunk/src/zpkgegg/). The eggs generated by zpkgegg do not attempt to distinguish between runtime, testing or development dependencies, so almost all packages will want zope.testing. README.txt contains a brief example of how to point easy_install at the appropriate folders so that easy_install can resolve the dependencies. Note that at this point we're still experimenting with how we'll use eggs, so suggestions, feedback and comments are welcome. Thanks, Nathan R. Yergler ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/eucci.group%40gmail.com -- Jeff Shell ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Zope Eggs
I think a good goal would be to have something like this: A Zope instance home aware package/egg loader, so that in an instance home you could add in packages like this: $ bin/package install zc.catalog $ bin/package install hurry This wouldn't be difficult to implement (at least in a simple way) -- easy_install (provided by setuptools) does downloads from package sources, and we experimented at the sprint with wrapping that functionality in order to bootstrap eggs. On 3/5/06, Nathan R. Yergler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: During the Zope3 sprint following PyCon, Paul and I, with Jim's guidance, began work on exploring how Zope can utilize eggs and be packaged using eggs. Since we're still experimenting with how eggs will be used, I wrote a script, zpkgegg, which reads the zpkg configuration information for a package and generates a standard setup.py from which an egg and vanilla sdist can be generated. You can find the script in subversion in the projectsupport project. For a brief overview of how the script is used, see README.txt (in http://svn.zope.org/projectsupport/trunk/src/zpkgegg/). The eggs generated by zpkgegg do not attempt to distinguish between runtime, testing or development dependencies, so almost all packages will want zope.testing. README.txt contains a brief example of how to point easy_install at the appropriate folders so that easy_install can resolve the dependencies. Note that at this point we're still experimenting with how we'll use eggs, so suggestions, feedback and comments are welcome. Thanks, Nathan R. Yergler ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/eucci.group%40gmail.com -- Jeff Shell ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] RFC: Use ConfigParser for High-Level Configuration
On 3/6/06, Dieter Maurer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In modern Zope[2] schemas, there is a general purpose abstract type precisely for this kind of extensions. When Tres and I added this, we planned specifically to see how it was received by the Zope 2 community. If people liked the way this was done, it could be added to Zope 3. That said, I don't think Jim's concerns are limited to the Zope configuration schema, but extend to configurations that do not necessarily involve the Zope application server at all. It may be that a better foundation schema is something to experiment with, especially for non-Zope applications. I don't expect to have any time for this in the near future. -Fred -- Fred L. Drake, Jr.fdrake at gmail.com There is no wealth but life. --John Ruskin ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Movies, audiences, wasted effort, was Re: [Zope3-dev] The vision thing
On Sun, Mar 05, 2006 at 04:04:48PM -0500, Benji York wrote: Geoff Davis wrote: * What can we learn from Rails / Django / TurboGears? Fun presentation along those lines: http://oodt.jpl.nasa.gov/better-web-app.mov One of the best put together movies I've seen. Really interesting stuff. I was struck by the way he presents zope/plone. He gives it a winning fun factor score for hello world... by doing through-the-web development. So he says Zope [2] rocks precisely because of features that many of us have been largely ignoring and advising against for a couple years now. The kind of thing that the built-in zope 2 tutorial shows you how to do. Why is Zope 2 TTW fun? - No restarts - No configuration That's certainly food for thought. The sample app demos were also interesting... he kinda glosses over what exactly was the full zope/plone stack and how he did it, but since he generated a Plone content-like app from a UML model it's not hard to guess :) Notably it was the kind of app that sits squarely in the single-developer- in-a-hurry space. The I just want some forms to save some data and I don't want to care how it works space. The space where, as Jim keeps saying, zope 2 traditionally excelled and Plone lives today. A similar app could've been written pretty quickly in Zope 3 by writing a schema and using browser:addform, browser:editform, and browser:schemadisplay. It would be interesting to see how that would go in the movie. I suspect that the movie author (named Sean Kelly i think?) would've complained about the xml sit-ups and the numerous server restarts. (In the middle of the movie he gives a link to his article at http://www.developer.com/xml/article.php/3583081 which includes the line The fad of applications using XML for their configuration files is dismaying, to say the least...) This is the kind of guy for whom TTW development really is compelling. Watching the hello world section reminded me of when I used to really enjoy doing that stuff. But there are some important things left out of that story. Why did I stop enjoying TTW work? Like a lot of Zope 2 developers: * I needed my work to live in CVS. ZODB history and undo isn't good enough as version control. * I needed to write tests that I can run without having a real ZODB and without starting up a server. * I needed a sane way to deploy software from dev to staging and from staging to production. ZSyncer is fine for what it does, but it too is a poor substitute for version control, shell scripts, make, et al. * The unix shell still beats the pants off the ZMI as a complete working environment (even with ExternalEditor, the find tab, etc.) * I got tired of bouncing between restricted and unrestricted code. I want to live in unrestricted code as much as possible. Ultimately the zope 2 restart time started to become less of a problem than dealing with all those problems when working TTW. For CMF development, I settled on a pretty nice compromise: templates and scripts in filesystem directory views, with the scripts doing only view-related glue. This got me files on the filesystem and in CVS, and no restarts when tweaking UI. The scripts are easily testable using CMFTestCase. Pretty nice way to work. I still have to deal with some restricted code, but I'm mostly resigned to that. In Zope 3, we take restarts and filesystem-only development for granted, because it's intended specifically for the audience that I'm a member of... developers who have those concerns. I'm hoping to see a similarly interactive, yet long-term-sane, working style evolve for in zope 3. Maybe we'll get there with Persisent Modules and fssync. If there's a moral to this story, it's this: Scaffolding that gets you up and running with a minimum of fuss is a great thing. Rapid interactive and iterative development is also a great thing. But if you can't easily transition from there to more complex apps that are still maintainable, it sucks. It's irritating to have to throw away some of your knowledge and completely replace it with new ways of thinking; it's better if the new knowledge strictly supplements the old. It's worse than irritating to have to throw away your work and rebuild it from scratch; it's better if your new work can cleanly leverage the old. Put another way, if we consider Jim's first two audiences, how do we teach a single person to move from i don't want to have to care to zope zen master / SVN contributor with minimal wasted effort along the way? Today I don't know if there's a clear coherent story to be told there, even for zope 2. If there was... wow, that would be a great. Sorry if I haven't really said anything new. -- Paul Winkler http://www.slinkp.com ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] RFC: Use ConfigParser for High-Level Configuration
Jim Fulton wrote: At: http://dev.zope.org/Zope3/UseConfigParserForHighLevelConfiguration Sorry, working offline, can't check, hope I haven't missed anything crucial :-S Is a proposal for using ConfigParser, rather than ZConfig for high-level configuration. Comments welcome. This smacks of re-invention for the sake of it. I happen to like ZConfig a lot. The way it's used in Zope 2 is a little unpleasant, admittedly, but I think it makes a fine configuration language. The xml required for the schema is pretty trivial if you're coming from zcmhell... I must be missing some big reasons why you'd want to use an inferior config language and rewrite a big chunk of working, battle tested software, but I guess that's in the proposal.. Anyway, a big -1 from me, especially given the backwards compatibility issues prople like myself, with MailingLogger and a number of ZConfig-based, and Dieter, with his NNTP server and doubtless other things, will face. Fred, FWIW, I was really really happy to see that generic section go into the schema, I just haven't had a chance to use it yet... cheers, Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: Movies, audiences, wasted effort, was Re: [Zope3-dev] The vision thing
On Mon, Mar 06, 2006 at 05:13:57PM -0700, Jeff Shell wrote: On 3/6/06, Paul Winkler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A similar app could've been written pretty quickly in Zope 3 by writing a schema and using browser:addform, browser:editform, and browser:schemadisplay. It would be interesting to see how that would go in the movie. I suspect that the movie author (named Sean Kelly i think?) would've complained about the xml sit-ups and the numerous server restarts. Those are bad options anyways. They do not have growth potential either, as you then have to make the conceptual leap from something magically generated by this XML declaration into how do I customize what happens on edit? Actually I agree with you. Dynamic scaffolding has the same problems I was complaining about re. TTW development: it does a bunch of magic that you have to understand and know how to do from scratch the moment you want to go beyond it. In that paragraph I was only trying to fit zope 3 into the kinds of things done in that movie; some of his other examples are pretty magical too. I write this UML model and presto, I get all this with zero lines of code, wow neat. What I'd really like is something like what you say later on: This is an area where Rails is particularly strong. I'm normally not a fan of code generation. But their tool generates just-enough. It's code you can actually understand and start building from, and a quick run to the api docs they have online is usually all that's needed to start understanding the code you're looking at. The code their tool generates runs basically what you see if you have it dynamically providing 'scaffolding', so the conceptual difference between the automatically generated and what it gives you out of the box is pretty small. OK, so what if we had a code generator that would read some browser:addform/editform/schemadisplay directives and spit out some functionally equivalent code (python, zcml, and zpt) that you could just start using and editing? I think that might be pretty handy. I really like the concept of through the web tweaking and manipulation. But I'm sick of templates and scripts. I'm not quite sick of templates yet, but I am sick of scripts. I still use them in CMF because they give me a convenient place to do what I described: view-related glue that I can tweak without restart. -- Paul Winkler http://www.slinkp.com ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Two visions
On Feb 28, 2006, at 7:39 AM, Martijn Faassen wrote: So, my proposal would be to tone down the vision to what we have already: a co-evolving Zope 3 and Zope 2, with Zope 2 following and Zope 3 leading (or Zope 2 driving Zope 3 forward, however you want to see it). No renaming necessary. No change of course necessary. Zope 2 can stick to Zope 2 features as long as necessary so there's no rush to replicate Zope 2 functionality in Zope 3 any time soon. At the same time, Zope 2 requirements can drive the evolution of Zope 3. I know I sound conservative here, but I'm actually happy with the way things are working now. Let's not fix what isn't broken. We can make incremental steps to making it better, and I'm glad people are starting to understand the ideas behind Five, but I don't see the need for a change of direction. Regards, Martijn +1 Jake http://www.ZopeZone.com Zoping for the rest of us ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
