Re: [Zope3-dev] What does python 3000 mean for zope?
Am Sonntag, 9. September 2007 17:34 schrieb Lennart Regebro: A bit late post, but here is my thoughts on the subject. I'm hoping that Guido will see the errors of his ways, and introduce a Python 2.7 that has more forwards compatibility than what has been promised for 2.6, so that there can be a useable overlap between Python 2.7 and 3.0. Maybe a 3.1 with some more backwards compatibility will be needed to, I don't know. I share many of your fears, but I personally don't see how Python 3 and 2 could be possibly compatible. There quite some basic changes, e.g. the format specifier (print Hello %s % World) does not exist any more, strings are unicode etc. And if Guido abandons these changes, then I don't see much sense in Python 3. My hope is that the code can be made compatible in a way, so that the resulting code of the Python 2-3 conversion is running. There would be 4 versions available, true, but the Python3 versions could be generated automatically. Best Regards, Hermann -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] GPG key ID: 299893C7 (on keyservers) FP: 0124 2584 8809 EF2A DBF9 4902 64B4 D16B 2998 93C7 ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: What does python 3000 mean for zope?
Am Samstag, 1. September 2007 13:11 schrieb Andreas Jung: --On 1. September 2007 16:33:58 +0530 Baiju M [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Andreas Jung wrote: --On 1. September 2007 16:00:19 +0530 Baiju M [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I currently don't see how a smooth transition would look like. At the end will have Zope 2 for Python 2.X, Zope 2 for Python 3.X and Zope 3-ish components for Python 2.X and different components for Python 3.X...appears as a nightmare to me. I think, at first let's see how Python 3 spreads, how successful it is and how much developers will switch. Then I assume that there will be a Python 2 version (perhaps 2.6?) that will be backwards compatible and also compatible to Python 3 in most cases. Then it will be time to make Zope2/3 compatible with Python 2.6, which may not be that hard after all. After that it will be possible to slowly migrate from Python 2.6 - Python 3, without breaking anything and without splitting Zope 2/3 in a Python 2 and Python 3 version. I personally don't see this so dramatically, especially because many things are still unclear in Python 3 and because of the long timescale. Best Regards, Hermann -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] GPG key ID: 299893C7 (on keyservers) FP: 0124 2584 8809 EF2A DBF9 4902 64B4 D16B 2998 93C7 ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: What does python 3000 mean for zope?
Am Sonntag, 2. September 2007 08:18 schrieb Andreas Jung: --On 1. September 2007 16:21:23 -0400 Stephan Richter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Saturday 01 September 2007 15:33, Martijn Faassen wrote: I think Zope will be on Python 2.x for many years to come. I really hope not. A friend of mine and I want to get a bit involved in Python 3000 once it is stable enough that the standard libs can get some attention. At this point I really want to have an initial look at porting Zope 3 packages to Python 3. I really hope we can move to Python 3 in a reasonable amount of time. What are the major benefits from moving to Python 3? The major and most important change I see in Py3K is the string-as-unicode implementation. That's a big advantage. However everything else is in some way syntactical sugar. Py3k still won't run on multiple CPUs, it still uses the GIL... improvements in this area would be arguments for me to move to Py3K. Only speaking for my self, I don't see major improvements that would my daily Python experience significantly. I personally have the same impression. The string-as-unicode implementation is a real advantage, moreover I also like many of the syntactic changes. What I would like to see, however, is a native implementation of interfaces, which seems not really to be the case. Moreover, as you stated above, Python 3 will still use the GIL, which is a shame, as it's still a uni-processor language. This should be the #1 problem to be addressed, as multi-processor systems are now coming up so fast, however, it seems this is postponed to Python 4000. :-( That's the real problem I see, as in ~ 4 years 8-core systems may be standard and Python 2/3 will only be capable of using 1/8 of the processing power. Best Regards, Hermann -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] GPG key ID: 299893C7 (on keyservers) FP: 0124 2584 8809 EF2A DBF9 4902 64B4 D16B 2998 93C7 ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: What does python 3000 mean for zope?
Am Montag, 3. September 2007 13:25 schrieb Martijn Faassen: Hermann Himmelbauer wrote: Am Samstag, 1. September 2007 13:11 schrieb Andreas Jung: --On 1. September 2007 16:33:58 +0530 Baiju M [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Andreas Jung wrote: --On 1. September 2007 16:00:19 +0530 Baiju M [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Then it will be time to make Zope2/3 compatible with Python 2.6, which may not be that hard after all. After that it will be possible to slowly migrate from Python 2.6 - Python 3, without breaking anything and without splitting Zope 2/3 in a Python 2 and Python 3 version. A slow migration is not really possible. You are to convert with 2to3. There is the proposed scenario that you maintain the same codebase for 2.6 for a while and release 3.0 versions by automatic conversion. Let's just say I want to hear about practical examples of projects doing this first. :) Well, I personally don't have good experiences with automatic code conversion tools. Most often I had to manually edit the source. It may work in simple cases where e.g. print is replace with stdout.write() but if things get complicated, I'd rather not bet on such a conversion tool. I think it all depends on the amount/complexity of changes but we will see... Best Regards, Hermann -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] GPG key ID: 299893C7 (on keyservers) FP: 0124 2584 8809 EF2A DBF9 4902 64B4 D16B 2998 93C7 ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] RFC: zopeproject
Am Mittwoch, 18. Juli 2007 01:13 schrieb Philipp von Weitershausen: Feedback As much as I see the library-driven approach replace the instance approach, I see zopeproject as the way to get started with an application instead of mkzopeinstance. I would like to ask everyone who's interested in checking it out and give feedback, both on these ideas and on zopeproject specifically. I personally like the idea - it seems that this may lead to a faster setup of a zope-based package. I am no Zope3 expert but here are just my 2 cents: - Please carefully weight boilerplate code against black magic: For newbies, the generated code should on one hand be easily understandable, which means that there is no code in it that requires deep understandings of Zope3 internals. On the other hand, black magic should be avoided, as such constructs are pitfalls later on. - If I understand this right, this is also a server-centric against application-centric issue. In your case, it's probably easier to get a single Zope3-based application running, but will it also be easy to instantiate a Zope3 server with multiple, different applications on it? - Please don't forget about Grok in this approach, as the simplicity of Grok fits to a fast zope3 package setup. Perhaps a zopeproject --grok would be a good idea. - How much work is it to implement this and how do you estimate the timeline? Best Regards, Hermann -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] GPG key ID: 299893C7 (on keyservers) FP: 0124 2584 8809 EF2A DBF9 4902 64B4 D16B 2998 93C7 ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
