Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Twisted Publisher and Zope 2
Tres Seaver wrote: ... Ob. note: the performance characteristics of such servers (including twisted) are not well understood in the context of Zope, until some brave soul actually rolls out a high-volume production site and reports success or failure. I still agree with this. But I think it's worth pointing out that the ZServer used in Zope 3 isn't the same ZServer used in Zope 2. It is an independent implemenatation that hasn't seen anything like the punishment that the Zope 2 ZServer has. In fact, I should really stop calling it ZServer. I really want to get out of the server business. :) Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Twisted issues (Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Twisted Publisher and Zope 2)
Jim Fulton wrote: Tres Seaver wrote: ... Ob. note: the performance characteristics of such servers (including twisted) are not well understood in the context of Zope, until some brave soul actually rolls out a high-volume production site and reports success or failure. Good point! It would be good to investigate this issue further. I did some investigation and found the thread-management strategy currently provided to be unsatisfactory. I've posted a note to the Twisted list. I don't know if this can be fixed before the next Zope 3.2 beta this weekend. I think I'm going to look into adding an option to makezopeinstance to select which server is used. I haven't decided yet which one will be the default. I'm leaning toward making twisted the default to try to increase the amount of testing it gets, but recommend that people use ZServer for now in production sites. Thoughts? Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Twisted Publisher and Zope 2
On Monday 12 December 2005 07:59, Tres Seaver wrote: > If WSGI lives up to its promise, then the WSGI-compliant Z2-Z3 hybrid > would be publishable as a "WSGI application" from any WSGI server, > including perhaps mod_python-based servers. Right, I think there have been success stories with mod-python and Zope 3's WSGI implementation already. > Ob. note: the performance characteristics of such servers (including > twisted) are not well understood in the context of Zope, until some > brave soul actually rolls out a high-volume production site and reports > success or failure. Itamar and I did some early and non-scientific performance testing and it turned out that twisted is just a tiny bit slower than zserver, almost not enough to detect it in comparison to the time the publisher takes. Regards, Stephan -- Stephan Richter CBU Physics & Chemistry (B.S.) / Tufts Physics (Ph.D. student) Web2k - Web Software Design, Development and Training ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Zope3-dev] Re: Twisted Publisher and Zope 2
Tres Seaver wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Sidnei da Silva wrote: On Mon, Dec 12, 2005 at 07:18:05AM -0500, Jim Fulton wrote: | We should proceed by getting Z2 and Z3 to use a common | publisher, presumingly based on the Z3 publisher. This common | publisher should: | | - Be well documented and tested. | | - Use WSGI for HTTP | | - Be backward compatible with Both Z2 and Z3 | | - Should be highly customizable through components. This will | hopefully allow z2-stype and z3-style publication to coexist in | a single app server. | | Again, I expect that the Z3 publisher will be the best starting point. | | Note that the Z3 publication framework splits functionality | currently provided by the Z2 publisher into a publisher and a | publication object. An initial step might be top come up with | a Z2 publication object that works with the Z3 publisher. You haven't said anything about the server. I assume this Z3/Z2 publication object hybrid would run with with the Z3 server instead of the Z2 ZServer. If WSGI lives up to its promise, then the WSGI-compliant Z2-Z3 hybrid would be publishable as a "WSGI application" from any WSGI server, including perhaps mod_python-based servers. Yup. Ob. note: the performance characteristics of such servers (including twisted) are not well understood in the context of Zope, until some brave soul actually rolls out a high-volume production site and reports success or failure. Good point! It would be good to investigate this issue further. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Zope3-dev] Re: Twisted Publisher and Zope 2
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Sidnei da Silva wrote: > On Mon, Dec 12, 2005 at 07:18:05AM -0500, Jim Fulton wrote: > | We should proceed by getting Z2 and Z3 to use a common > | publisher, presumingly based on the Z3 publisher. This common > | publisher should: > | > | - Be well documented and tested. > | > | - Use WSGI for HTTP > | > | - Be backward compatible with Both Z2 and Z3 > | > | - Should be highly customizable through components. This will > | hopefully allow z2-stype and z3-style publication to coexist in > | a single app server. > | > | Again, I expect that the Z3 publisher will be the best starting point. > | > | Note that the Z3 publication framework splits functionality > | currently provided by the Z2 publisher into a publisher and a > | publication object. An initial step might be top come up with > | a Z2 publication object that works with the Z3 publisher. > > You haven't said anything about the server. I assume this Z3/Z2 > publication object hybrid would run with with the Z3 server instead of > the Z2 ZServer. If WSGI lives up to its promise, then the WSGI-compliant Z2-Z3 hybrid would be publishable as a "WSGI application" from any WSGI server, including perhaps mod_python-based servers. Ob. note: the performance characteristics of such servers (including twisted) are not well understood in the context of Zope, until some brave soul actually rolls out a high-volume production site and reports success or failure. Tres. - -- === Tres Seaver +1 202-558-7113 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Palladion Software "Excellence by Design"http://palladion.com -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFDnXQh+gerLs4ltQ4RAjzbAJ4+5SAPXcxnbo3IY7tWODabMuLajgCgyNFK mW6JmvMV9vcc0xq/xKOyOdM= =flX1 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Twisted Publisher and Zope 2
On Friday 09 December 2005 04:21, Philipp von Weitershausen wrote: > > I do have a good feeling that the structures that will be provided by > > the Zope Foundation will help us (not solve the problem on their own, > > but be supportive). > > I don't think we neither need the ZF for this nor should we need it. I > think it has been understood by everyone that the ZF shouldn't dictate > development issues. We have technical popes for that :). +1 Regards, Stephan -- Stephan Richter CBU Physics & Chemistry (B.S.) / Tufts Physics (Ph.D. student) Web2k - Web Software Design, Development and Training ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Twisted Publisher and Zope 2
On Friday 09 December 2005 04:47, Christian Theune wrote: > Additionally I think we should clean up the Zope 3 project area a bit > and try harder to keep it up to date and manageable. This might include > reducing the amount of information to be able to keep it up to date. I'm > willing to put work in there. Go Christian! Regards, Stephan -- Stephan Richter CBU Physics & Chemistry (B.S.) / Tufts Physics (Ph.D. student) Web2k - Web Software Design, Development and Training ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Twisted Publisher and Zope 2
On Friday 09 December 2005 04:47, Christian Theune wrote: > At last I think we should try to continue having good documentation in > the code that documents what is happening. This doesn't necessarily have > to be doctests (good if it is) but provide some information for people > who visit the code. I think this would be a good place to move > information/documentation to that gets removed from the project area. Note that zope.app.twisted is fully tested. The tests document quite a bit of what is happening. What else do you want (without writing user-level documentation)? Regards, Stephan -- Stephan Richter CBU Physics & Chemistry (B.S.) / Tufts Physics (Ph.D. student) Web2k - Web Software Design, Development and Training ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Twisted Publisher and Zope 2
On Friday 09 December 2005 04:47, Christian Theune wrote: > I think this is two things: visibility and having more people look at > large projects like the twisted integration. I think Stephan did a great > Job (at least AFAIK he was the one doing the twisted integration, > right?) but I haven't found a single proposal about doing that > integration and I haven't found any documentation how the integration > works either. First, Michael Kerrin put in far more time than me, maybe about 10 times more. Next, the twisted integration, from an HTTP point of view, was actually zero intrusive to Zope itself. We had switched to WSGI before, so twisted is just another server. WSGI, though not perfect, is a wonderful interface that cleanly separates server from application. I think the Zope 2 world regularly blurs this boundary and we need to make sure we are making the boundary crisp again. Regards, Stephan -- Stephan Richter CBU Physics & Chemistry (B.S.) / Tufts Physics (Ph.D. student) Web2k - Web Software Design, Development and Training ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Zope3-dev] Re: Twisted Publisher and Zope 2
On Friday 09 December 2005 04:21, Philipp von Weitershausen wrote: > Christian has an important point here: There was neither a proposal for > the introduction of WSGI features, nor the zope.publisher refactoring > nor the Twisted integration. WSGI was implemented before we switched back to proposal-based development and Twisted integration was discussed many years in advance; it was long agreed that it should be done, but nobody ever got around to it. For the publisher Jim already apologized. Regards, Stephan -- Stephan Richter CBU Physics & Chemistry (B.S.) / Tufts Physics (Ph.D. student) Web2k - Web Software Design, Development and Training ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Twisted Publisher and Zope 2
Am Freitag, den 09.12.2005, 10:21 +0100 schrieb Philipp von Weitershausen: > I don't think we neither need the ZF for this nor should we need it. I > think it has been understood by everyone that the ZF shouldn't dictate > development issues. We have technical popes for that :). Agreed. Although the foundation includes organisational structures for those people to team up visibly. Christian -- gocept gmbh & co. kg - schalaunische str. 6 - 06366 koethen - germany www.gocept.com - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - phone +49 3496 30 99 112 - fax +49 3496 30 99 118 - zope and plone consulting and development signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Zope3-dev] Re: Twisted Publisher and Zope 2
Christian Theune wrote: > I think this is two things: visibility and having more people look at > large projects like the twisted integration. I think Stephan did a great > Job (at least AFAIK he was the one doing the twisted integration, > right?) but I haven't found a single proposal about doing that > integration and I haven't found any documentation how the integration > works either. Christian has an important point here: There was neither a proposal for the introduction of WSGI features, nor the zope.publisher refactoring nor the Twisted integration. The latter could have been that documentation Christian is missing (and so am I). I remember asking Stephan about such docs when the integration was being done (because I sometimes I just can't read the code) and I remember that writing docs was deferred out of the lack of time. The suggestion was that if I wanted docs, I should write them myself. This is not to discredit Stephan and Michael's great achievement in any way, just a reminder that we have certain standards when it comes to code. Those include the existence of tests, for example. I think they should also include the existence of docs, a proposal being a minimum for changes like these. > I do have a good feeling that the structures that will be provided by > the Zope Foundation will help us (not solve the problem on their own, > but be supportive). I don't think we neither need the ZF for this nor should we need it. I think it has been understood by everyone that the ZF shouldn't dictate development issues. We have technical popes for that :). Philipp ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Twisted Publisher and Zope 2
Hi, Am Donnerstag, den 08.12.2005, 13:51 -0500 schrieb Jim Fulton: > > I'm also rather surprise about those MANY incompatibilities that haven't > > been discussed and shall silently be accepted. > > Oh come on. Nobody is silently accepting anything. You're right. I over-reacted here. > > Right now I am aware of > > three problems: > > > > - WSGI disallows response streams > > - Twisted handles chunked requests differently (zsync checkin breaks) > > Are you refering to the lack of response.write? It wasn't clear to us that > anyone was using this. Do you think that there is application code that's > using this? We didn't catch zsync because it didn't have adequate tests. Right. I'm used to using response.write to write long-running code that informs the user what is happening. This is a low-tech approach that does not use javascript or something but is easy to handle. I find that very valuable. > > This makes me pretty nervous about our development process / decision > > making. > > How would you improve it? > > What would you di differently? I think this is two things: visibility and having more people look at large projects like the twisted integration. I think Stephan did a great Job (at least AFAIK he was the one doing the twisted integration, right?) but I haven't found a single proposal about doing that integration and I haven't found any documentation how the integration works either. I do have a good feeling that the structures that will be provided by the Zope Foundation will help us (not solve the problem on their own, but be supportive). Additionally I think we should clean up the Zope 3 project area a bit and try harder to keep it up to date and manageable. This might include reducing the amount of information to be able to keep it up to date. I'm willing to put work in there. At last I think we should try to continue having good documentation in the code that documents what is happening. This doesn't necessarily have to be doctests (good if it is) but provide some information for people who visit the code. I think this would be a good place to move information/documentation to that gets removed from the project area. Christian -- gocept gmbh & co. kg - schalaunische str. 6 - 06366 koethen - germany www.gocept.com - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - phone +49 3496 30 99 112 - fax +49 3496 30 99 118 - zope and plone consulting and development signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Twisted Publisher and Zope 2
[Stephan Richter] > ... > Overall I agree with Jim on his comments. We have been extremely careful not > to step on anyones toes and provide as smooth of a transition as possible. Impending releases always create panic. Embrace it as an opportunity for spreading joy ;-) > We asked repeatedly for feedback/testing and all the tests are passing > (including ZEO). The ZEO _tests_ set up their own asyncore mainloop. If you think about it, it has to be that way, else we couldn't run the ZEO tests from a standalone ZODB checkout. > Alone the thought that ZEO depends on the server Zope is using, makes me > worried about ZEO; but then Jim just figured out that there is no problem. ;-) There is a problem, but it in one sense it's shallow: it only takes a few lines of code to set up an asyncore mainloop ZEO is maximally happy with. The hard part for Jim will be figuring out where to put them ;-) The deeper problem is that ZEO _ever_ relied on "someone else" to set up a mainloop; Jim sent a note about that to zodb-dev today (ZEO should change to set up its own asyncore cruft). ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Twisted Publisher and Zope 2
Stephan Richter wrote: On Thursday 08 December 2005 13:57, Jim Fulton wrote: It has to be pretty discouraging to Stephan to get these sort of complaints. That's just not fair. I'll note that it is even more discouraging to Michael Kerrin, who put in a hell of a lot of time to get this working, specifically the FTP code. Overall I agree with Jim on his comments. We have been extremely careful not to step on anyones toes and provide as smooth of a transition as possible. We asked repeatedly for feedback/testing and all the tests are passing (including ZEO). Alone the thought that ZEO depends on the server Zope is using, makes me worried about ZEO; Yup, this needs to change. > but then Jim just figured out that there is no problem. ;-) Oh, there is a problem. It's not readily apparent though. But, don't worry, I'll figure out why I can't see a problem that I know is there. :) Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Twisted Publisher and Zope 2
On Thursday 08 December 2005 14:05, Jim Fulton wrote: > The major change is that the response 'write' method is > no longer supported. If that causes breakage of existing > Zope 3 apps, then we can add it back. It was our judgement > that it wasn't being used, so we dropped it. And I remember us asking specifically on the mailing list whether someone is using it. In any case I think the IResult API is cleaner, so we should attempt a solution there. Regards, Stephan -- Stephan Richter CBU Physics & Chemistry (B.S.) / Tufts Physics (Ph.D. student) Web2k - Web Software Design, Development and Training ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Twisted Publisher and Zope 2
On Thursday 08 December 2005 13:57, Jim Fulton wrote: > It has to be pretty discouraging to Stephan to get these sort of > complaints. That's just not fair. I'll note that it is even more discouraging to Michael Kerrin, who put in a hell of a lot of time to get this working, specifically the FTP code. Overall I agree with Jim on his comments. We have been extremely careful not to step on anyones toes and provide as smooth of a transition as possible. We asked repeatedly for feedback/testing and all the tests are passing (including ZEO). Alone the thought that ZEO depends on the server Zope is using, makes me worried about ZEO; but then Jim just figured out that there is no problem. ;-) Regards, Stephan -- Stephan Richter CBU Physics & Chemistry (B.S.) / Tufts Physics (Ph.D. student) Web2k - Web Software Design, Development and Training ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Twisted Publisher and Zope 2
On Thu, Dec 08, 2005 at 02:05:55PM -0500, Jim Fulton wrote: > Paul Winkler wrote: > >On Thu, Dec 08, 2005 at 07:31:56PM +0100, Christian Theune wrote: > > > >>- WSGI disallows response streams > > > > > >It what??? > >Seriously? That's a showstopper for a lot of projects. > > Uh, what is the "it/that" that you are talking about? > I have no idea what "WSGI disallows response streams" > above means. WSGI is designed sprecifically to support > streaming via Python iteraction. Yes, I see that now, and posted as much in parallel to your reply. Sorry for being alarmist. > The major change is that the response 'write' method is > no longer supported. If that causes breakage of existing > Zope 3 apps, then we can add it back. It was our judgement > that it wasn't being used, so we dropped it. I think this is only a problem if/when this stuff is used in Zope 2. There's an awful lot of zope 2 code using RESPONSE.write(). But of course you know that, so I'll shut up now. -- Paul Winkler http://www.slinkp.com ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Twisted Publisher and Zope 2
--On 8. Dezember 2005 13:57:10 -0500 Jim Fulton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Andreas Jung wrote: --On 8. Dezember 2005 11:47:10 -0500 Tres Seaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Yep. Nobody has complained to us about this yet. I personally do not use ZEO, so I could not fix the issue anyways. If twisted and ZEO are incompatible, then twisted needs *never* to be the default; ZEO is an essential part of Zope's "real world" story. I can't imagine even *developing* without ZEO, much less deploying applications in production. This raises the question about what projects are important and what are the risks. Replacing the publisher appears to me like "nice-to-have" project but it does not appear so important to me. I would prefer to get e.g. the ZPT implementation from Z3 into Z2. This would resolve hopefully most of the current annoyances with ZPT in Z2. Cool, then work on it. Will do! -aj pgpgDoxjGdKxY.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Twisted Publisher and Zope 2
Paul Winkler wrote: On Thu, Dec 08, 2005 at 07:31:56PM +0100, Christian Theune wrote: - WSGI disallows response streams It what??? Seriously? That's a showstopper for a lot of projects. Uh, what is the "it/that" that you are talking about? I have no idea what "WSGI disallows response streams" above means. WSGI is designed sprecifically to support streaming via Python iteraction. The Zope 3 publisher didn't previously support either streaming or efficient handling of large output. It *now* supports efficient handling of large output. This is a step forward. The major change is that the response 'write' method is no longer supported. If that causes breakage of existing Zope 3 apps, then we can add it back. It was our judgement that it wasn't being used, so we dropped it. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Twisted Publisher and Zope 2
Andreas Jung wrote: --On 8. Dezember 2005 11:47:10 -0500 Tres Seaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Yep. Nobody has complained to us about this yet. I personally do not use ZEO, so I could not fix the issue anyways. If twisted and ZEO are incompatible, then twisted needs *never* to be the default; ZEO is an essential part of Zope's "real world" story. I can't imagine even *developing* without ZEO, much less deploying applications in production. This raises the question about what projects are important and what are the risks. Replacing the publisher appears to me like "nice-to-have" project but it does not appear so important to me. I would prefer to get e.g. the ZPT implementation from Z3 into Z2. This would resolve hopefully most of the current annoyances with ZPT in Z2. Cool, then work on it. Twisted integration was important to the people who worked on it. No one asked *you* to work on it. For myself, I think it is pretty important to: - Support WSGI well, as that gives people a lot more flexibility on how to deploy Zope. - Get out of the network server business. In a year or two, I'll be quite happy not to support ZServer anymore. Are these the things *I* would have done first, maybe not, but I didn't do most of the work. It has to be pretty discouraging to Stephan to get these sort of complaints. That's just not fair. Change entails risk. A change to the ZPT machinery is bound to introduce problems that need to be fixed. That's why we need people to contribute by testing things. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Twisted Publisher and Zope 2
Christian Theune wrote: Hi, Am Donnerstag, den 08.12.2005, 11:47 -0500 schrieb Tres Seaver: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Stephan Richter wrote: On Thursday 08 December 2005 08:29, Sidnei da Silva wrote: On Thu, Dec 08, 2005 at 08:18:49AM -0500, Stephan Richter wrote: | On Thursday 08 December 2005 07:06, Sidnei da Silva wrote: | > Just one thing that struck me right now. ZServer uses medusa/asyncore | > and twisted has it's own 'main loop'. How do they play together in | > Zope 3? Or they dont? | | They don't. Either you use ZServer or you use Twisted, but not both. So | if you want to use Twisted-specific packages, like the scheduler, you | have to use twisted, otherwise you are out of luck. I think this is | totally fine. What's the situation with ZEO then? The ZEO 'zrpc.client' uses ThreadedAsync.register_loop_callback(), which is a evil monkeypatch to asyncore. I haven't seen that change recently, so I assume this has been ignored? Yep. Nobody has complained to us about this yet. I personally do not use ZEO, so I could not fix the issue anyways. If twisted and ZEO are incompatible, then twisted needs *never* to be the default; ZEO is an essential part of Zope's "real world" story. I can't imagine even *developing* without ZEO, much less deploying applications in production. I'm also rather surprise about those MANY incompatibilities that haven't been discussed and shall silently be accepted. Oh come on. Nobody is silently accepting anything. > Right now I am aware of three problems: - WSGI disallows response streams > - Twisted handles chunked requests differently (zsync checkin breaks) Are you refering to the lack of response.write? It wasn't clear to us that anyone was using this. Do you think that there is application code that's using this? We didn't catch zsync because it didn't have adequate tests. - ZEO is broken or at least suboptimal This is news. We are responding. If you think something is a problem then file a collector entry and we'll deal with it. This makes me pretty nervous about our development process / decision making. How would you improve it? What would you di differently? Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Zope3-dev] Re: Twisted Publisher and Zope 2
Tres Seaver wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Stephan Richter wrote: On Thursday 08 December 2005 08:29, Sidnei da Silva wrote: On Thu, Dec 08, 2005 at 08:18:49AM -0500, Stephan Richter wrote: | On Thursday 08 December 2005 07:06, Sidnei da Silva wrote: | > Just one thing that struck me right now. ZServer uses medusa/asyncore | > and twisted has it's own 'main loop'. How do they play together in | > Zope 3? Or they dont? | | They don't. Either you use ZServer or you use Twisted, but not both. So | if you want to use Twisted-specific packages, like the scheduler, you | have to use twisted, otherwise you are out of luck. I think this is | totally fine. What's the situation with ZEO then? The ZEO 'zrpc.client' uses ThreadedAsync.register_loop_callback(), which is a evil monkeypatch to asyncore. I haven't seen that change recently, so I assume this has been ignored? Yep. Nobody has complained to us about this yet. I personally do not use ZEO, so I could not fix the issue anyways. If twisted and ZEO are incompatible, then twisted needs *never* to be the default; ZEO is an essential part of Zope's "real world" story. I can't imagine even *developing* without ZEO, much less deploying applications in production. Don't worry, we'll (I'll :) work this out. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Twisted Publisher and Zope 2
On Thu, Dec 08, 2005 at 01:25:21PM -0500, Paul Winkler wrote: > On Thu, Dec 08, 2005 at 07:31:56PM +0100, Christian Theune wrote: > > - WSGI disallows response streams > > It what??? > Seriously? That's a showstopper for a lot of projects. OK, no it doesn't: it's just different. http://www.python.org/peps/pep-0333.html#buffering-and-streaming I don't know how Z3 handles the issues mentioned in the PEP. -- Paul Winkler http://www.slinkp.com ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Twisted Publisher and Zope 2
On Thu, Dec 08, 2005 at 07:31:56PM +0100, Christian Theune wrote: > - WSGI disallows response streams It what??? Seriously? That's a showstopper for a lot of projects. -- Paul Winkler http://www.slinkp.com ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Twisted Publisher and Zope 2
Tres Seaver wrote: > > If twisted and ZEO are incompatible, then twisted needs *never* to be > the default; ZEO is an essential part of Zope's "real world" story. I > can't imagine even *developing* without ZEO, much less deploying > applications in production. > > > Tres. > -- > === > Tres Seaver +1 202-558-7113 [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Palladion Software "Excellence by Design"http://palladion.com Endorsing this statement. We've got Zope 2 running in a cluster with ZEO (and DirectoryStorage). Besides being the right way to do our application, ZEO was essential in getting past the CIO asking "What do you mean you won't be using Sql Server?" -- Wade Leftwich Ithaca, NY ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Twisted Publisher and Zope 2
--On 8. Dezember 2005 11:47:10 -0500 Tres Seaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Yep. Nobody has complained to us about this yet. I personally do not use ZEO, so I could not fix the issue anyways. If twisted and ZEO are incompatible, then twisted needs *never* to be the default; ZEO is an essential part of Zope's "real world" story. I can't imagine even *developing* without ZEO, much less deploying applications in production. This raises the question about what projects are important and what are the risks. Replacing the publisher appears to me like "nice-to-have" project but it does not appear so important to me. I would prefer to get e.g. the ZPT implementation from Z3 into Z2. This would resolve hopefully most of the current annoyances with ZPT in Z2. -aj pgpHQwQBcMstZ.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Twisted Publisher and Zope 2
Hi, Am Donnerstag, den 08.12.2005, 11:47 -0500 schrieb Tres Seaver: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > Stephan Richter wrote: > > On Thursday 08 December 2005 08:29, Sidnei da Silva wrote: > > > >>On Thu, Dec 08, 2005 at 08:18:49AM -0500, Stephan Richter wrote: > >>| On Thursday 08 December 2005 07:06, Sidnei da Silva wrote: > >>| > Just one thing that struck me right now. ZServer uses medusa/asyncore > >>| > and twisted has it's own 'main loop'. How do they play together in > >>| > Zope 3? Or they dont? > >>| > >>| They don't. Either you use ZServer or you use Twisted, but not both. So > >>| if you want to use Twisted-specific packages, like the scheduler, you > >>| have to use twisted, otherwise you are out of luck. I think this is > >>| totally fine. > >> > >>What's the situation with ZEO then? The ZEO 'zrpc.client' uses > >>ThreadedAsync.register_loop_callback(), which is a evil monkeypatch to > >>asyncore. I haven't seen that change recently, so I assume this has > >>been ignored? > > > > > > Yep. Nobody has complained to us about this yet. I personally do not use > > ZEO, > so I could not fix the issue anyways. > > If twisted and ZEO are incompatible, then twisted needs *never* to be > the default; ZEO is an essential part of Zope's "real world" story. I > can't imagine even *developing* without ZEO, much less deploying > applications in production. I'm also rather surprise about those MANY incompatibilities that haven't been discussed and shall silently be accepted. Right now I am aware of three problems: - WSGI disallows response streams - Twisted handles chunked requests differently (zsync checkin breaks) - ZEO is broken or at least suboptimal This makes me pretty nervous about our development process / decision making. Cheers, Christian -- gocept gmbh & co. kg - schalaunische str. 6 - 06366 koethen - germany www.gocept.com - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - phone +49 3496 30 99 112 - fax +49 3496 30 99 118 - zope and plone consulting and development signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Zope3-dev] Re: Twisted Publisher and Zope 2
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Stephan Richter wrote: > On Thursday 08 December 2005 08:29, Sidnei da Silva wrote: > >>On Thu, Dec 08, 2005 at 08:18:49AM -0500, Stephan Richter wrote: >>| On Thursday 08 December 2005 07:06, Sidnei da Silva wrote: >>| > Just one thing that struck me right now. ZServer uses medusa/asyncore >>| > and twisted has it's own 'main loop'. How do they play together in >>| > Zope 3? Or they dont? >>| >>| They don't. Either you use ZServer or you use Twisted, but not both. So >>| if you want to use Twisted-specific packages, like the scheduler, you >>| have to use twisted, otherwise you are out of luck. I think this is >>| totally fine. >> >>What's the situation with ZEO then? The ZEO 'zrpc.client' uses >>ThreadedAsync.register_loop_callback(), which is a evil monkeypatch to >>asyncore. I haven't seen that change recently, so I assume this has >>been ignored? > > > Yep. Nobody has complained to us about this yet. I personally do not use ZEO, > so I could not fix the issue anyways. If twisted and ZEO are incompatible, then twisted needs *never* to be the default; ZEO is an essential part of Zope's "real world" story. I can't imagine even *developing* without ZEO, much less deploying applications in production. Tres. - -- === Tres Seaver +1 202-558-7113 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Palladion Software "Excellence by Design"http://palladion.com -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFDmGOO+gerLs4ltQ4RAh5WAKDKV/3O77THXAFJZWK6ePEXxyMo8wCeL9O7 +fK7fCbh6uMXE2NgrRCRAFU= =5WMQ -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
