Re: [Zope3-dev] Why I posted about Zope3.org (the outsider's thoughts that got me thinking)
On 10/11/05, Stephan Richter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Tuesday 11 October 2005 13:24, Jeff Shell wrote: > > Personally, I really like the Z3ECM project site - z3lab.org. It has a > > combination of blogs, papers, demos (animations) and documentation. > > That's still a project in its infancy, but it's a good looking site > > with a variety of sources feeding into it. If there were to be a model > > for a Zope 3 web site, that would be it. > > I have followed the mailing list the last months and the site a little bit, > and I still do not know what the project is really working on at the moment. > I know that Roger helped developing a high-level workflow engine atop WfMC > and Jean-MARC works on CPS skins (why CPS skins, if there is no CPS for Zope > 3), but that's pretty much it. Specifics about the Z3ECM project aside, it's just a nice site in my opinion. The front page layout - 'Latest News' and 'Spotlight Information' on top, the list of documentation updates, blog posts, documents and white papers on the side, the explanatory text further down - it's great. It's not super flashy, but it gets information across and has the feel of "freshest information on top" and avoids the feel of "lots and lots of new and old information all over the place" that Zope.org has (which stems from Zope.org's noble efforts as a community site which has built up a lot of data over the years, which is why I think a good Zope 3 marketing / information site should be more 'invite-only' in regards to publishing information, at least initially). ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Why I posted about Zope3.org (the outsider's thoughts that got me thinking)
On 10/11/05, Stephan Richter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Tuesday 11 October 2005 13:24, Jeff Shell wrote: > > I'd really like to give Zope 3 a try, and I keep trying to. The docs > > are just nauseating. They might look good or fine to someone who's > > used Zope for years, but to someone new they're horrid. As I > > mentioned, the site is laid out horribly for someone who wants to > > learn Zope 3. Why is the left bar saturated with links when I just > > want Zope 3? > > > > It's incredibly frustrating and disappointing to hear about all the > > cool stuff you can do in Zope 3, and not see anywhere that shows it > > actually being done with descriptions on how it works, etc. Where are > > the examples? Where are the recipies to "do cool thing X"? > > > > The developers I see talk about Zope are all in companies that use > > it, that have teams that use it, that have tons of actual knowledge > > that doesn't exist on the website. I really really want to give Zope > > 3 a spin, I have a few fairly complex projects I'd like to try out > > with it. How do I get started? > > I would say, buy the books. It is too hard to keep documentation up to date, > if you do not get paid. The alternative are doctests of course, which we have > available as mentioned in my previous mail. Again, I think it is a lack of > manpower, my own included. I would love to update the Web site to the version > of my book that has actually been printed, but I just do not have time. All > it needs is someone to merge the stupid DOC files to the TeX master documents > and it would be online. Note that I already put them in a zope.org-based > repo, so anyone can work on that task. That was my response to him. But for people evaluating Zope 3, or just starting out and not knowing whether it's a worthwhile technology to continue with, buying a book is probably a non-starter. Some good "quick starts" and recipes would help there. I don't think that the type of documentation that is in a book should be on the web site and maintained constantly. It's too big and too hard, a fact I'm sure you're aware of. The API Doc tool, the books, are all useful things to have once you've really committed to a project. But getting people that far is where zope3.org or maybe zope3rocks.com or something - anything! - would be useful. Instead of trying to update reams of documentation with new features in Zope 3.2, one could post a document like "Zope 3.2 - Introducing zope.formlib" or "Zope 3.2 - deprecated functions" Because, for example, I see the warning about using 'getView - use getMultiAdapter instead', but there's no explanation of how a getView(...) call should be translated into a getMultiAdapter call.. One can figure it out, but it's a couple of lines that could be in a document that many of us here can write.. I just don't want it lost in the desert sands of the wiki. I can find proposals about simplifying the component architecture, but there's no final document about what that simplification really produced and how it affects me. The deprecation machinery is great at telling me about these things (again - I think it's a great feature), but oh man - I think any major architecture like Zope 3 that gets *simpler* in a new version is something to sing about. ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Why I posted about Zope3.org (the outsider's thoughts that got me thinking)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Stephan Richter wrote: > On Tuesday 11 October 2005 13:24, Jeff Shell wrote: > >>Personally, I really like the Z3ECM project site - z3lab.org. It has a >>combination of blogs, papers, demos (animations) and documentation. >>That's still a project in its infancy, but it's a good looking site >>with a variety of sources feeding into it. If there were to be a model >>for a Zope 3 web site, that would be it. > > > I have followed the mailing list the last months and the site a little bit, > and I still do not know what the project is really working on at the moment. > I know that Roger helped developing a high-level workflow engine atop WfMC > and Jean-MARC works on CPS skins (why CPS skins, if there is no CPS for Zope > 3), but that's pretty much it. > For the moment, - cpsskins - xpdl / wfmc engine integration. - XML Schema and XForms - Zope3 benchs - etc... You may check the Z3lab repo. The main problem we are having is the Zope Foundation pending status that prevents *some* people from getting involved for various raisons... Feel free to ask more questions on the z3lab list if some things are not clear. J. - -- Julien Anguenot | Nuxeo R&D (Paris, France) CPS Platform : http://www.cps-project.org Zope3 / ECM : http://www.z3lab.org mail: anguenot at nuxeo.com; tel: +33 (0) 6 72 57 57 66 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFDTAAiGhoG8MxZ/pIRAsQbAJ95UJBcg0uVZIeYnduXjWz9kdjpywCfXCL6 0dd6vj5zf9iRA6sxxafDF9c= =Nh/k -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Why I posted about Zope3.org (the outsider's thoughts that got me thinking)
On Tuesday 11 October 2005 13:24, Jeff Shell wrote: > Personally, I really like the Z3ECM project site - z3lab.org. It has a > combination of blogs, papers, demos (animations) and documentation. > That's still a project in its infancy, but it's a good looking site > with a variety of sources feeding into it. If there were to be a model > for a Zope 3 web site, that would be it. I have followed the mailing list the last months and the site a little bit, and I still do not know what the project is really working on at the moment. I know that Roger helped developing a high-level workflow engine atop WfMC and Jean-MARC works on CPS skins (why CPS skins, if there is no CPS for Zope 3), but that's pretty much it. > The development wiki should > still be inside of it, of course. But weblog entries like mine, like > Martijn's, like Benji's, should all go into it as well (not as a > "planet zope" type stream, but more dedicated so it's known that > relevant information shows up). I agree. Regards, Stephan -- Stephan Richter CBU Physics & Chemistry (B.S.) / Tufts Physics (Ph.D. student) Web2k - Web Software Design, Development and Training ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Why I posted about Zope3.org (the outsider's thoughts that got me thinking)
On Tuesday 11 October 2005 13:24, Jeff Shell wrote: > I'd really like to give Zope 3 a try, and I keep trying to. The docs > are just nauseating. They might look good or fine to someone who's > used Zope for years, but to someone new they're horrid. As I > mentioned, the site is laid out horribly for someone who wants to > learn Zope 3. Why is the left bar saturated with links when I just > want Zope 3? > > It's incredibly frustrating and disappointing to hear about all the > cool stuff you can do in Zope 3, and not see anywhere that shows it > actually being done with descriptions on how it works, etc. Where are > the examples? Where are the recipies to "do cool thing X"? > > The developers I see talk about Zope are all in companies that use > it, that have teams that use it, that have tons of actual knowledge > that doesn't exist on the website. I really really want to give Zope > 3 a spin, I have a few fairly complex projects I'd like to try out > with it. How do I get started? I would say, buy the books. It is too hard to keep documentation up to date, if you do not get paid. The alternative are doctests of course, which we have available as mentioned in my previous mail. Again, I think it is a lack of manpower, my own included. I would love to update the Web site to the version of my book that has actually been printed, but I just do not have time. All it needs is someone to merge the stupid DOC files to the TeX master documents and it would be online. Note that I already put them in a zope.org-based repo, so anyone can work on that task. Regards, Stephan -- Stephan Richter CBU Physics & Chemistry (B.S.) / Tufts Physics (Ph.D. student) Web2k - Web Software Design, Development and Training ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Why I posted about Zope3.org (the outsider's thoughts that got me thinking)
On Tuesday 11 October 2005 13:24, Jeff Shell wrote: > - We have doctests that actually work and are maintained, lets get > some of that online! Lets get other doctest style documents online! This will be done for Zope 3.2. API doc, which contains an organized version of most *.txt files, can now be used statically, i.e. with a wget "checkout" thanks to the work at the sprint. Regards, Stephan -- Stephan Richter CBU Physics & Chemistry (B.S.) / Tufts Physics (Ph.D. student) Web2k - Web Software Design, Development and Training ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Why I posted about Zope3.org (the outsider's thoughts that got me thinking)
On Tuesday 11 October 2005 13:24, Jeff Shell wrote: > These are some comments he made specifically about finding Zope 3 > information. They may seem a bit crude, but he seems genuinely > frustrated. Now - I'll add that I'm impressed with tools like apidoc, > the books, and all of that, but if you compare the Zope 3 wiki front > page with that of http://www.rubyonrails.com/ and > http://www.turbogears.org/ you'll see that there's a big difference. > And you know that I personally have a big distaste for Wikis. Someone > (I can't remember who) said recently that a good problem with Wikis is > that it's hard to grok the relevance of a certain page - does it still > apply to current thinking? There are a lot of historical artifacts in > the Zope 3 development wiki. And I'm not saying that we should get rid > of them, but it's just hard to know that PageA is a hypothetical > dreamland item from three years ago and PageB right next to it is > valid information and documentation for Zope 3.1. I think the main issue with Zope 3 documentation is the lack of commitment to update it. That is not meant to invalidate your other points though. Regards, Stephan -- Stephan Richter CBU Physics & Chemistry (B.S.) / Tufts Physics (Ph.D. student) Web2k - Web Software Design, Development and Training ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Why I posted about Zope3.org (the outsider's thoughts that got me thinking)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Jeff Shell wrote: > I wanted to post something here last night about these conversations > I've been having in email with Ben Bangert, whose has the weblog > http://www.groovie.org/ and has written tools like Routes > http://routes.groovie.org/ - a tool for people who don't have the > benefit of nice zope.publisher style URLs to make (and regenerate) > nice URLs :) > > These are some comments he made specifically about finding Zope 3 > information. They may seem a bit crude, but he seems genuinely > frustrated. Now - I'll add that I'm impressed with tools like apidoc, > the books, and all of that, but if you compare the Zope 3 wiki front > page with that of http://www.rubyonrails.com/ and > http://www.turbogears.org/ you'll see that there's a big difference. > And you know that I personally have a big distaste for Wikis. Someone > (I can't remember who) said recently that a good problem with Wikis is > that it's hard to grok the relevance of a certain page - does it still > apply to current thinking? There are a lot of historical artifacts in > the Zope 3 development wiki. And I'm not saying that we should get rid > of them, but it's just hard to know that PageA is a hypothetical > dreamland item from three years ago and PageB right next to it is > valid information and documentation for Zope 3.1. Anyways, I'll stop > grand-standing on that and share Ben's thoughts. Well, after also > saying that I know that we're all busy developers with real jobs, > consultant gigs, research work, education, sprints, and so on, so I'm > not volunteering myself nor expecting anyone else to take up the lead. > But it would be great if someone did ;), and Bottlerocket may be able > to help... when our current rush of jobs settles... (sigh). > > Alright. Ben's statements: > > """ > The documentation on the Zope siteugh. That alone has driven me > nuts more than I can remember. The docs are horrible, frequently > outdated, only occasionally actually work, scattered around the site > with little organization. The site navigation is absolutely horrible, > things rarely indicate where you are, how you got there, whats next, > etc. While I can see the little nav thing at the top, I'm referring > more to the left sidebar that never indicates you are in that section. > """ > - A good example of why Zope3.org should be its own site. > > """ > Zope 3 hardly looks ready for anyone to use if you actually go to the > website. It's slotted in under the Zope Corp page, and has the > appearance of a science school project. It really deserves its own > site devoted to it without all the extra navigation and confusing > headers leading all over. Zope 3.1 needs a colorful, enticing, > approaching site with excellent documentation that actually works and > is maintained. > """ > - We have doctests that actually work and are maintained, lets get > some of that online! Lets get other doctest style documents online! > > - Zope 3.1 is really really really a great release guys. I'm very > impressed with the simplification of the component architecture, with > the deprecation system, and with the generations system. It shows that > Zope 3.1 is a serious release. I think it's a great candidate for > getting up on the rooftops and shouting about. > > """ > I'd really like to give Zope 3 a try, and I keep trying to. The docs > are just nauseating. They might look good or fine to someone who's > used Zope for years, but to someone new they're horrid. As I > mentioned, the site is laid out horribly for someone who wants to > learn Zope 3. Why is the left bar saturated with links when I just > want Zope 3? > > It's incredibly frustrating and disappointing to hear about all the > cool stuff you can do in Zope 3, and not see anywhere that shows it > actually being done with descriptions on how it works, etc. Where are > the examples? Where are the recipies to "do cool thing X"? > > The developers I see talk about Zope are all in companies that use > it, that have teams that use it, that have tons of actual knowledge > that doesn't exist on the website. I really really want to give Zope > 3 a spin, I have a few fairly complex projects I'd like to try out > with it. How do I get started? > """ > > Ben is an intelligent Python programmer who is a big fan of Myghty, > but might be just the kind of target audience we want for Zope 3 right > now - educated, enthusiastic, interested developers with a history of > web development. We all fit that bill here, but I imagine many of us > have been using Zope for years, some of us going all the way back to > Bobo and Principia. And I know that for me - Zope 3 is goddamn > exciting. But how does that message carry over? > > Personally, I really like the Z3ECM project site - z3lab.org. It has a > combination of blogs, papers, demos (animations) and documentation. > That's still a project in its infancy, but it's a good looking site > with a variety of sources fe
[Zope3-dev] Why I posted about Zope3.org (the outsider's thoughts that got me thinking)
I wanted to post something here last night about these conversations I've been having in email with Ben Bangert, whose has the weblog http://www.groovie.org/ and has written tools like Routes http://routes.groovie.org/ - a tool for people who don't have the benefit of nice zope.publisher style URLs to make (and regenerate) nice URLs :) These are some comments he made specifically about finding Zope 3 information. They may seem a bit crude, but he seems genuinely frustrated. Now - I'll add that I'm impressed with tools like apidoc, the books, and all of that, but if you compare the Zope 3 wiki front page with that of http://www.rubyonrails.com/ and http://www.turbogears.org/ you'll see that there's a big difference. And you know that I personally have a big distaste for Wikis. Someone (I can't remember who) said recently that a good problem with Wikis is that it's hard to grok the relevance of a certain page - does it still apply to current thinking? There are a lot of historical artifacts in the Zope 3 development wiki. And I'm not saying that we should get rid of them, but it's just hard to know that PageA is a hypothetical dreamland item from three years ago and PageB right next to it is valid information and documentation for Zope 3.1. Anyways, I'll stop grand-standing on that and share Ben's thoughts. Well, after also saying that I know that we're all busy developers with real jobs, consultant gigs, research work, education, sprints, and so on, so I'm not volunteering myself nor expecting anyone else to take up the lead. But it would be great if someone did ;), and Bottlerocket may be able to help... when our current rush of jobs settles... (sigh). Alright. Ben's statements: """ The documentation on the Zope siteugh. That alone has driven me nuts more than I can remember. The docs are horrible, frequently outdated, only occasionally actually work, scattered around the site with little organization. The site navigation is absolutely horrible, things rarely indicate where you are, how you got there, whats next, etc. While I can see the little nav thing at the top, I'm referring more to the left sidebar that never indicates you are in that section. """ - A good example of why Zope3.org should be its own site. """ Zope 3 hardly looks ready for anyone to use if you actually go to the website. It's slotted in under the Zope Corp page, and has the appearance of a science school project. It really deserves its own site devoted to it without all the extra navigation and confusing headers leading all over. Zope 3.1 needs a colorful, enticing, approaching site with excellent documentation that actually works and is maintained. """ - We have doctests that actually work and are maintained, lets get some of that online! Lets get other doctest style documents online! - Zope 3.1 is really really really a great release guys. I'm very impressed with the simplification of the component architecture, with the deprecation system, and with the generations system. It shows that Zope 3.1 is a serious release. I think it's a great candidate for getting up on the rooftops and shouting about. """ I'd really like to give Zope 3 a try, and I keep trying to. The docs are just nauseating. They might look good or fine to someone who's used Zope for years, but to someone new they're horrid. As I mentioned, the site is laid out horribly for someone who wants to learn Zope 3. Why is the left bar saturated with links when I just want Zope 3? It's incredibly frustrating and disappointing to hear about all the cool stuff you can do in Zope 3, and not see anywhere that shows it actually being done with descriptions on how it works, etc. Where are the examples? Where are the recipies to "do cool thing X"? The developers I see talk about Zope are all in companies that use it, that have teams that use it, that have tons of actual knowledge that doesn't exist on the website. I really really want to give Zope 3 a spin, I have a few fairly complex projects I'd like to try out with it. How do I get started? """ Ben is an intelligent Python programmer who is a big fan of Myghty, but might be just the kind of target audience we want for Zope 3 right now - educated, enthusiastic, interested developers with a history of web development. We all fit that bill here, but I imagine many of us have been using Zope for years, some of us going all the way back to Bobo and Principia. And I know that for me - Zope 3 is goddamn exciting. But how does that message carry over? Personally, I really like the Z3ECM project site - z3lab.org. It has a combination of blogs, papers, demos (animations) and documentation. That's still a project in its infancy, but it's a good looking site with a variety of sources feeding into it. If there were to be a model for a Zope 3 web site, that would be it. The development wiki should still be inside of it, of course. But weblog entries like mine, like Martijn's, like Benji's, should all go into it as well (not as a "
