Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

Op 29 jul. 2012 17:11 schreef "Anthony ''Ishpeck'' Tedjamulia" het volgende: > > On Sun, Jul 29, 2012 at 12:20:10AM +0300, Menachem Moystoviz wrote: [...] > Daemontools has been working sufficiently well for my purposes. > It's lean, robust, and I'm a fan of the exec chain. > > > For this > > rea

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

On Sun, Jul 29, 2012 at 12:20:10AM +0300, Menachem Moystoviz wrote: > In addition, it may be considered to move from systemv to NetBSD's > init, which stays in-line with the simple interface of rc.conf > but adds parallelization and modularity. That'd win so hard. > Lastly, it may be beneficial

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 07/28/2012 02:20 PM, Menachem Moystoviz wrote: > > In sum, systemd offers some benefits that are covered by other > programs and patches, while drawing much controversy and exacting a > toll which seems a bit too large in the eyes of some users. F

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

On Sat, Jul 28, 2012 at 4:20 PM, Menachem Moystoviz wrote: > As far as I can tell from the systemd blog and people's reactions > here, the only advantages systemd offers are: > - Splitting the configuration files, which increases the robustness of > the configuration files > - Daemon supervision >

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

* Menachem Moystoviz wrote: > As far as I can tell from the systemd blog and people's reactions > here, the only advantages systemd offers are: > - Splitting the configuration files, which increases the robustness of > the configuration files > - Daemon supervision > - Bootup speedup by paralleliz

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

As far as I can tell from the systemd blog and people's reactions here, the only advantages systemd offers are: - Splitting the configuration files, which increases the robustness of the configuration files - Daemon supervision - Bootup speedup by parallelizing the daemons. However, from the respon

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

On 26 July 2012 16:08, Jeremiah Dodds wrote: > In fact, at some point you realize that while there are a lot of > beautiful and clean systems, a lot of our entire computing stack is ugly > hacks on top of ugly > And we get used to our particular ugly hack and then complain like hell when someone

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 3:08 AM, Jeremiah Dodds wrote: > Martin Cigorraga writes: > >> Ugly hacks are a fact in sysadmins life and it will not prevent me from >> sleep >> like a baby :) > > In fact, at some point you realize that while there are a lot of > beautiful and clean systems, a lot of ou

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

Martin Cigorraga writes: > Ugly hacks are a fact in sysadmins life and it will not prevent me from > sleep > like a baby :) In fact, at some point you realize that while there are a lot of beautiful and clean systems, a lot of our entire computing stack is ugly hacks on top of ugly hacks ;) --

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

> > Odd, Arch uses SysV's init, but it certainly doesn't have a SysVinit > > init system. It's much closer to BSD, and a lot of the tools we use > > are custom. > > I know, and it's not necessarily bad. > I find OpenBSDs to be brilliantly straight forward. Part of that might be because there

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

Am Wed, 25 Jul 2012 10:05:37 -0400 schrieb "Stephen E. Baker" : > This DAEMONS array is nice, one of the things I like about Arch, but > it is specific to Arch not SysV. If you run Gentoo, or others you > won't have something like that, you'll have a program that arranges > symlinks, not entirely

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

> > Maybe you could be clearer because scripting is almost boundless. > > There is no way to specify in DAEMONS that syslog-ng and dbus should be > started in parallel, and only when they are both up and running should > network manager be started. > Personally I don't care about shaving a se

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

On Jul 25, 2012 6:14 PM, "Kevin Chadwick" wrote: > > > Why you would want to specify which services had to come before or after > > which other services is obvious when you consider that systemd boots > > services in parallel. There is no way in the current system, and no way > > without specifyi

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

> The 24/07/12, Kevin Chadwick wrote: > > > > Did you read this before posting. It's obvious that reviewing the config > > > > files and getting the source and finding the bug in C is much easier of > > > > course and can be fixed immediately by anyone without another OS or > > > > machine. > > >

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

> The 24/07/12, Kevin Chadwick wrote: > > > > Did you read this before posting. It's obvious that reviewing the config > > > > files and getting the source and finding the bug in C is much easier of > > > > course and can be fixed immediately by anyone without another OS or > > > > machine. > > >

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

> If a service is not provided: > - with SysVinit you have to write the whole script usually relying on > whatever library the distribution provides (which tend to be > error-prone); > - with systemd, you just write a configuration file. > Well arch has some includes to make it prettier. On O

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

> Hello Heiko, > > this is simply not true. > > First of all, starting with Windows XP the stability of Windows (yes, > Windows, not Windoze) got much better and there are very few crashes which > are mostly related to driver issues, IMO. > Incidentally, I installed a fresh XP a couple of wee

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

> Why you would want to specify which services had to come before or after > which other services is obvious when you consider that systemd boots > services in parallel. There is no way in the current system, and no way > without specifying, to boot several daemons at the same time and then >

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 7:03 AM, Manolo Martínez wrote: > On 07/25/12 at 01:47am, C Anthony Risinger wrote: >> to reiterate the above ... it works fantastic. the Pandaboard runs 9 >> custom unit files (1/2 of which are just mods to the shipped unit >> files): >> >> u.dhcpd4.service >> u.dnsmasq.s

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

On 25/07/2012 5:54 AM, Heiko Baums wrote: [snip] Why do I have to tell systemd in all of those init scripts what "service" has to run before or after this "service"? In DAEMONS in rc.conf I just have a list of daemons I want to have started in one single line. And the order in which they hav

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

On 07/25/12 at 01:47am, C Anthony Risinger wrote: > to reiterate the above ... it works fantastic. the Pandaboard runs 9 > custom unit files (1/2 of which are just mods to the shipped unit > files): > > u.dhcpd4.service > u.dnsmasq.service > u.fwknopd.service > u.hostapd.service > iptables.servic

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

On Wed, 2012-07-25 at 13:18 +0200, Oliver Kraitschy wrote: > On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 11:20:57AM +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > > > Is there the need to talk about Windows? XP is stable, just most XP > > users are unexperienced, so they break their XPs, but for such computer > > users a Linux won't w

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 11:20:57AM +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > Is there the need to talk about Windows? XP is stable, just most XP > users are unexperienced, so they break their XPs, but for such computer > users a Linux won't work, since it needs too much tweaking to get a > Linux run, hence a b

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

On Wed, 2012-07-25 at 13:05 +0200, Oliver Kraitschy wrote: > On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 11:14:57AM +0200, Heiko Baums wrote: > > I am realistic and professional, because I speak from experience, like > > I said before more than 25 years. If the next employer you'll make an application should read thi

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 11:14:57AM +0200, Heiko Baums wrote: > I used Windoze long enough. And I had to reinstall it every 3 months, > and I know a lot of people who also had to do it this often. Since > Windoze XP it was maybe not every 3 months anymore, but still often > enough. > I am realisti

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

2012/7/24 Tom Gundersen : > It is based on the desktop-entry-spec: > , which > in turn is (as far as I know) based on Window's .ini format. This is true: http://0pointer.de/public/systemd-man/systemd.unit.html. It could be worse; those i

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 3:44 AM, Nicolas Sebrecht wrote: > The 25/07/12, Heiko Baums wrote: >> >> systemd I have to run a special command to have a daemon started at >> boot time (which I additionally have to remember), I have to write such >> an ini file instead of just writing or editing a simpl

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

Am Wed, 25 Jul 2012 07:51:15 +0200 (CEST) schrieb okra...@arcor.de: > this is simply not true. Sorry, but this is simply true. I know Windoze XP and I had to use it long enough, far too long. > First of all, starting with Windows XP the stability of Windows (yes, > Windows, not Windoze) got much

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

Am Wed, 25 Jul 2012 10:44:34 +0200 schrieb Nicolas Sebrecht : > I can find anything in systemd which could make think of the registry > on Windows. I didn't say that. > You are mixing up two things: > - adding/removing services on boot; > - configuring the services. > > The first - adding/remov

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

Am Wed, 25 Jul 2012 07:22:28 +0200 schrieb Nelson Marambio : > that is / was right for Win 98 or Win ME. Having an exception error > which was caused by damaged registry files always meant a reset to > state short after the OS-installation, so all the drivers and > programs had to be re-installed

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

On 25-07-2012 09:44, Nicolas Sebrecht wrote: >> then systemd creates some symlinks of >> files into another directory whose name is also totally cryptic, at >> least way to long. This is a total mess, if this is really true, and >> it's absolutely a step towards a seco

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

On Wed, 2012-07-25 at 07:51 +0200, okra...@arcor.de wrote: > > Bad programming is the most favorite answer, and totally nonsense. The > > registry just gets bigger and bigger and is totally cryptic. And the > > registry is one of the most frequent reasons for system crashes and > > instabilities. A

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 11:24 AM, Tom Gundersen wrote: > On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 6:06 PM, Kevin Chadwick wrote: >> I wonder if ArmArch will run systemd. > > ArchLinux ARM ships systemd, just like we do. On my ARM machine (a > Raspberry Pi running ArchLinux ARM) I use it, and as I mentioned it > w

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

My 1.2 pence: I would prefer that rc.conf is kept as one file, or at least do it well. W dniu wtorek, 24 lipca 2012 użytkownik Gaetan Bisson napisał: > [2012-07-24 16:07:50 +0200] Heiko Baums: > > Yes, I don't like those Windoze like ini files of systemd, too. > > > > Everything is and should sta

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

> Bad programming is the most favorite answer, and totally nonsense. The > registry just gets bigger and bigger and is totally cryptic. And the > registry is one of the most frequent reasons for system crashes and > instabilities. And it's the most frequent reason why Windoze regularly > (usually e

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

Am 25.07.2012 02:00, schrieb Heiko Baums: Am Tue, 24 Jul 2012 11:31:22 -0500 [...] And it's the most frequent reason why Windoze regularly (usually every 3 months) needs to be reinstalled. Heiko Good morning, that is / was right for Win 98 or Win ME. Having an exception error which was ca

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 1:46 AM, Heiko Baums wrote: > Seriously, who reads source codes? Manpages usually only explain the > parameters, not the design of the software and how it works. There may > be some other documentations, I haven't yet seen any. Overview of the bootprocess under systemd: ht

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

Am Tue, 24 Jul 2012 16:25:52 +0200 schrieb Tom Gundersen : > Talking about "UNIX philosophy" and "Windoze like ini files" is > probably what gets some people going. It is not technical. In fact it is technical. Of course, at first glance config files for rc scripts and ini files are simple text f

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

Am Tue, 24 Jul 2012 11:31:22 -0500 schrieb Leonid Isaev : > The problem is not with the registry itself, but bad programming. Most > software devs under windows have very little understanding of the > registry. Bad programming is the most favorite answer, and totally nonsense. The registry just g

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

Am Tue, 24 Jul 2012 10:08:26 -0500 schrieb Leonid Isaev : > One thing I noticed is that the only people who usually bash Windows > are those who don't develop or know very little about programming. You really shouldn't do such assumptions. You couldn't have noticed it, you're just assuming. > Wh

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 09:36:05AM +0200, Nicolas Sebrecht wrote: > The pain is the need to merge new changes while updating. Some tools > (like pacdiff) can help with the job but it's very frustrating to have > one configuration file and merge lot of changes in it. Especially when > it comes to co

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

> On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 6:06 PM, Kevin Chadwick wrote: > > I wonder if ArmArch will run systemd. > > ArchLinux ARM ships systemd, just like we do. On my ARM machine (a > Raspberry Pi running ArchLinux ARM) I use it, and as I mentioned it > works great. > > > I hope desktop and embedded will >

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

> > Over time it gets oversized, filled with crap, slow and totally impractical, > > in one word: bloated, and please, while windows may implement one > > or two good ideas the underlying infraestructure is as much messy > > as is it's registry. > > > > > > The problem is not with the registry

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

On Tue, 24 Jul 2012 13:02:24 -0300 Martin Cigorraga wrote: > "What exactly is wrong > with ini files and/or registry? Perhaps it is your misunderstanding..." > > Oh please, if you ever dealt with windows registry then you know > it's a totally disfunctional way to keep record of anything. Yes,

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 6:06 PM, Kevin Chadwick wrote: > I wonder if ArmArch will run systemd. ArchLinux ARM ships systemd, just like we do. On my ARM machine (a Raspberry Pi running ArchLinux ARM) I use it, and as I mentioned it works great. > I hope desktop and embedded will > get closer not f

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

> The registry is more debatable. I certainly wish Windows still had ini files and didn't make you eat with just a knife on a Gigantic API ;-) -- Why not do something good every day and install BOINC.

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

> Personally, I get exasperated when people don't take the time to > educate themselves before making broad and incorrect assertions. There > is a huge amount of documentation, discussion and other sources of > information about systemd available online. Moreover, there is the > source-code, and ev

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

> On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 3:24 PM, Baho Utot wrote: > > I am sorry you think any thing you have will be a waste of time. > > I am looking at this "problem" of moving to systemd, staying with current > > init scripts or moving in the LSB init scripts direction. In order for one > > to make an infor

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

"What exactly is wrong with ini files and/or registry? Perhaps it is your misunderstanding..." Oh please, if you ever dealt with windows registry then you know it's a totally disfunctional way to keep record of anything. Over time it gets oversized, filled with crap, slow and totally impractical,

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 11:59 AM, Christoph Vigano wrote: > Am 7/24/2012 4:51 PM, schrieb Mantas Mikulėnas: > >> On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 5:07 PM, Heiko Baums >> wrote: >>> >>> Yes, I don't like those Windoze like ini files of systemd, too. >> >> >> I honestly don't know if this is serious. What i

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

On 24/07/2012 11:08 AM, Leonid Isaev wrote: On Tue, 24 Jul 2012 16:07:50 +0200 Heiko Baums wrote: Am Tue, 24 Jul 2012 23:40:51 +1000 schrieb Gaetan Bisson : Yes, I don't like those Windoze like ini files of systemd, too. One thing I noticed is that the only people who usually bash Windows ar

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

Op dinsdag 24 juli 2012 10:51:05 schreef Calvin Morrison: > On 24 July 2012 10:43, Ike Devolder wrote: > > Op dinsdag 24 juli 2012 10:29:25 schreef Calvin Morrison: > >> > Personally, I get exasperated when people don't take the time to > >> > educate themselves before making broad and incorrect a

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

On Tue, 24 Jul 2012 16:07:50 +0200 Heiko Baums wrote: > Am Tue, 24 Jul 2012 23:40:51 +1000 > schrieb Gaetan Bisson : > > Yes, I don't like those Windoze like ini files of systemd, too. One thing I noticed is that the only people who usually bash Windows are those who don't develop or know very

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 4:59 PM, Christoph Vigano wrote: > But, those are not Windows-like INI-Files. Those files are meant to be > following some XDG Desktop File Descripton Standard Whose Name I Not Now > (tm), making them easy parseable by existing libraries and programs that > implement this s

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 4:51 PM, Mantas Mikulėnas wrote: > On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 5:07 PM, Heiko Baums wrote: >> Yes, I don't like those Windoze like ini files of systemd, too. > > I honestly don't know if this is serious. What is the difference > between a "key=value" rc.conf and a "key=value"

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

Am 7/24/2012 4:51 PM, schrieb Mantas Mikulėnas: On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 5:07 PM, Heiko Baums wrote: Yes, I don't like those Windoze like ini files of systemd, too. I honestly don't know if this is serious. What is the difference between a "key=value" rc.conf and a "key=value" ini file of syst

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 5:07 PM, Heiko Baums wrote: > Yes, I don't like those Windoze like ini files of systemd, too. I honestly don't know if this is serious. What is the difference between a "key=value" rc.conf and a "key=value" ini file of systemd? -- Mantas Mikulėnas

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

On 24 July 2012 10:43, Ike Devolder wrote: > Op dinsdag 24 juli 2012 10:29:25 schreef Calvin Morrison: >> > Personally, I get exasperated when people don't take the time to >> > educate themselves before making broad and incorrect assertions. There >> > is a huge amount of documentation, discussio

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

Op dinsdag 24 juli 2012 10:29:25 schreef Calvin Morrison: > > Personally, I get exasperated when people don't take the time to > > educate themselves before making broad and incorrect assertions. There > > is a huge amount of documentation, discussion and other sources of > > information about syst

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 4:29 PM, Calvin Morrison wrote: > Well for me I do not have the time to go about learning the latest and > greatest init system, desktop environment, whatever. I still use KDE3, > I use old school init systems... why? because I use my system to do > work not to tinker. I ne

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

> Personally, I get exasperated when people don't take the time to > educate themselves before making broad and incorrect assertions. There > is a huge amount of documentation, discussion and other sources of > information about systemd available online. Moreover, there is the > source-code, and ev

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 4:07 PM, Heiko Baums wrote: > But I think e.g. regarding the UNIX philosophy he is totally right. And > Yes, I don't like those Windoze like ini files of systemd, too. > Everything is and should stay a file, and every tool should do only > one task but this should be done

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

[2012-07-24 16:07:50 +0200] Heiko Baums: > Yes, I don't like those Windoze like ini files of systemd, too. > > Everything is and should stay a file, and every tool should do only > one task but this should be done well. How about having multiple files, each doing one thing and doing it well? Wait

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

Am Tue, 24 Jul 2012 16:07:50 +0200 schrieb Heiko Baums : > Btw., in all those discussions about systemd as well as in all those > discussions about PulseAudio, I always read more or less > technical arguments from people who have objections against them or > have tried them and have seen that they

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

Am Tue, 24 Jul 2012 23:40:51 +1000 schrieb Gaetan Bisson : > [2012-07-24 09:19:27 -0400] Baho Utot: > > He is stating his opinion and that should be valued > > Baseless opinions are not valuable, they are spam. Actually they are not baseless even if he didn't explain every single argument in

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 3:24 PM, Baho Utot wrote: > I am sorry you think any thing you have will be a waste of time. > I am looking at this "problem" of moving to systemd, staying with current > init scripts or moving in the LSB init scripts direction. In order for one > to make an informed decisi

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

[2012-07-24 09:19:27 -0400] Baho Utot: > He is stating his opinion and that should be valued Baseless opinions are not valuable, they are spam. > His > insight may keep one from doing something stupid simply because he > has looked at the problem from a different light and that should be > va

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

On 07/24/2012 09:09 AM, Tom Gundersen wrote: On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 1:38 PM, Kevin Chadwick wrote: Systemd is larger than init, so for embedded it may well quadruple boot time. What utter bullshit. Please, Kevin, if you are going to throw around numbers, do some measurements first. You keep

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

On 07/24/2012 08:37 AM, Gaetan Bisson wrote: [2012-07-24 13:27:50 +0100] Kevin Chadwick: you may not see my points if you haven't done any research on the foundations of UNIX and/or security. How more ridiculous can you get? He is not being ridiculous. He is stating his opinion and that shou

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 1:38 PM, Kevin Chadwick wrote: >> > Systemd is >> > larger than init, so for embedded it may well quadruple boot time. >> >> What utter bullshit. Please, Kevin, if you are going to throw around >> numbers, do some measurements first. > > You keep picking on other subjects t

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

[2012-07-24 13:27:50 +0100] Kevin Chadwick: > you may not see my points if you haven't done any research on > the foundations of UNIX and/or security. How more ridiculous can you get? -- Gaetan

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

> Couldn't have said it better. I'm not by any means a technical expert, but > even I could see how much "basis" his posts had (or didn't) Those posts were simply pointing out errors/assumptions in baseless posts and you may not see my points if you haven't done any research on the foundations of

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

> >> Did you read this before posting. It's obvious that reviewing the config > >> files and getting the source and finding the bug in C is much easier of > >> course and can be fixed immediately by anyone without another OS or > >> machine. > > > > Did you read this before posting. It's obvious

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

> For having used systemd myself, I am inclined to believe that it > definitely fits the KISS principle. I welcome the coss platform GUI for controlling services, however on Arch rc.conf served very well. I found I can see /etc/inittab and man inittab and edit. With systemd I had to Google then

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

> > Did you read this before posting. It's obvious that reviewing the config > > files and getting the source and finding the bug in C is much easier of > > course and can be fixed immediately by anyone without another OS or > > machine. > > Did you read this before posting. It's obvious that wh

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

> Hi, > > Am 23.07.2012 17:29, schrieb Kevin Chadwick: > > Tested, simply sophisticated and as fast as you make it. > > There is no parallelization, no socket activation and no auto mounting. > In no way can it be as fast as systemd. > init=/bin/sh That happens a lot in embedded. > > Once yo

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

> For instance, (open)webOS (and probably android) has gone the upstart way. Probably because it scales to the system. -- Why not do something good every day and install BOINC.

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

> > Systemd is > > larger than init, so for embedded it may well quadruple boot time. > > What utter bullshit. Please, Kevin, if you are going to throw around > numbers, do some measurements first. You keep picking on other subjects too at one tiny part without considering all that I have said

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

On Tue, 24 Jul 2012 04:54:08 +0200, Anthony ''Ishpeck'' Tedjamulia wrote: On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 05:57:46PM +0200, Tom Gundersen wrote: > Is debian switching That remains to be seen. If Debian intends to continue support for Hurd and KfreeBSD they can't move to systemd -- which relies on

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 4:38 PM, Nicolas Sebrecht wrote: > The 23/07/12, Kevin Chadwick wrote: > >> Did you read this before posting. It's obvious that reviewing the config >> files and getting the source and finding the bug in C is much easier of >> course and can be fixed immediately by anyone w

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 05:57:46PM +0200, Tom Gundersen wrote: > > Is debian switching > > That remains to be seen. If Debian intends to continue support for Hurd and KfreeBSD they can't move to systemd -- which relies on Linux kernel features to work. That debian has a disincentive is not the

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

On 22 July 2012 13:41, Damjan wrote: > Also, by splitting it in different files you make it more robust. You > don't want to bork your network setup just because you were editing your > locale and forgot to close a quote. @Damjan: this isn't completely true because if the config file parser is

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

On Jul 24, 2012 12:10 AM, "Gaetan Bisson" wrote: > > [2012-07-23 16:35:26 +0100] Kevin Chadwick: > > You should work for Redhat. > > Could you give us a break for a couple minutes and reflect on how many > people you just spammed with your dozen content-free emails? Thanks for > thinking for more

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

Hi, Am 23.07.2012 17:29, schrieb Kevin Chadwick: > Tested, simply sophisticated and as fast as you make it. There is no parallelization, no socket activation and no auto mounting. In no way can it be as fast as systemd. > Once you get to desktop level and SSDs, who cares about a few seconds. I

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

On Mon, 23 Jul 2012 17:57:46 +0200 Tom Gundersen wrote: > On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 5:35 PM, Kevin Chadwick > wrote: > > Systemd is > > larger than init, so for embedded it may well quadruple boot time. > > What utter bullshit. Please, Kevin, if you are going to throw around > numbers, do some me

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

For having used systemd myself, I am inclined to believe that it definitely fits the KISS principle. Systemctl is only a frontend to simplify the addition and removal of services. Simplicity is only a matter of learning new commands (systemctl enable .service, e.g.). What systemctl really does when

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

[2012-07-23 16:35:26 +0100] Kevin Chadwick: > You should work for Redhat. Could you give us a break for a couple minutes and reflect on how many people you just spammed with your dozen content-free emails? Thanks for thinking for more than half a second next time you send something here. -- Gaet

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 5:35 PM, Kevin Chadwick wrote: > Systemd is > larger than init, so for embedded it may well quadruple boot time. What utter bullshit. Please, Kevin, if you are going to throw around numbers, do some measurements first. systemd is so far even more successful in embedded en

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

> > to get rid of all that > > Poetterix > > Once again this is not a technical argument, but a very subjective > reason with - at least for me - no basis. Its more of a philosophy and > that's not what this should be about. > > If you *really* like an audio stack without PulseAudio (which I w

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

> > that without ck. Change ownership of some things to a > > 'local' login ? I don't want that to happen. > > You're free to fight again changes or improvements. The simplest way I > know consist in installing a 70th year old system and don't update it. You should work for Redhat. -- ___

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

> Once again: I'm not sure whether there ever was something like a "Unix" > system. Furthermore I don't get why systemd is not Unix-like. The Unix philosophy of write programs that do one thing and do it well. Write programs to work together. Write programs to handle text streams, because that is

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

> No, no. Even without merging tool, 3 or 5 files instead of one is not > time consuming. > Ignoring systemctl output which is still less clear and slowed me down. Show what daemons will be running if you were to boot a filesystem which isn't running and tell me it's as quick to work out on a sy

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

> I will be too. I'm testing fedora in a virtualbox session, and besides > some software not being truly "bleeding edge". Except they chose grub2-beta (still beta, though grub2 is released) before it supported automatic detection and multi-booting setup requiring manual intervention. Arch are maki

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

> > > > However one fine day, an abrupt power-cut later, my home partition was no > > longer mountable under systemd. Initscripts worked fine. So I switched > > back.. > > didn't miss a thing.. > > You're wrong. SysV init scripts _are_ broken, today. But it's silently > failing without even

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

> > But developpers must know better than users what is the best for the > > distro. Killing /etc/rc.conf ? Why not. But for me, it is more KISS > > oriented than /etc/locale.conf, /etc/vconsole.conf, > > /etc/modprobe.d/*.conf files. > > > > As I said, it is my $0.02. Excuse my bad english, I'm n

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

> > That said, Gentoo always had separate config files located > > in /etc/conf.d. So the idea of not having one single rc.conf is not > > this new. Nevertheless one single /etc/rc.conf makes the administration > > a bit more comfortable, because you have all settings at a glance and > > don't need

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

> I don't think a single Arch specific file is as simple as some > "standardized" files, where the filename already tells you what it is > supposed to do. Both comments and defaults are allowed and appreciated, > so this is not an argument at all. It is not necessarily this difference but the fact

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

> Of course you could complain directly upstream, but in general there are > good reasons why they make use of things Polkit and ConsoleKit. > Otherwise each and every program would have to implement the > functionalities these packages provide for them self, which would be > even worse. Or much b

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

> > Fair enough, but for this sort of thing, who is 'upstream' ? > > In this case the super-ingenious Lennart Poettering, I guess. > > That said, Gentoo always had separate config files located > in /etc/conf.d. So the idea of not having one single rc.conf is not > this new. Nevertheless one si

Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.

> > Simple example: I didn't have consolekit for some years, and I don't > > care about whatever it has to offer. Recent updates of xdm have pulled > > it in. So far it hasn't done anything evil except being useless and > > consuming system resources (50 or so threads). Same about polkit, it's > >

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