Dear Arthur,
You write: '<<AJN>> Part, if not most of the problems here, must be
laid to the
feet of two authors of dictionary articles on the Saint-Luc family.
In
MGG (1963 issue) and New Grove (1970 edition) Jacques is mentioned,
but
all the Saint-Luc works are attributed to one Laurent Jacques
Alexandre
de Saint-Luc. '
Indeed, as already mentioned, the principal question is whether a
Jacques de Saint-Luc who was borne in 1616 was the author of works
composed in the first couple of decades of the 18th century in the
newly fashionable style; this was the reason for my original query.
From the responses I've received both through this forum and privately
it seems no satisfactory explanation is forthcoming but the weight of
opinion seems to favour the view that the extant works in the two large
MSs are by one of the elder S-L's two sons: the eldest Jacques
Alexandre born 1663 and Laurent born 1669. Certainly their dates fit
much better with the style of the surviving music. My money is on
Jacques Alexandre since it seems quite possible that the Alexandre part
might have been dropped thus resulting in confusion between him and his
father even by contemporaries.
But I also think it's wrong to blame just the MGG and New Grove: some
modern confusion may stem from things like the notes to Stephen Stubb's
CD of S-L's lute music (by Phillipe Vendrix) which states that the
elder S-L was composing (and traversing Europe) into his 90s. However,
like you I look forward to more up to date research which may appear in
the complete edition (alas - I presume not a facsimile edition
but Corpus des luthistes franc rather old fashioned (nowadays) house
style). Publication does not seem imminent.
rgds
Martyn
--- On Fri, 25/3/11, A. J. Ness <arthurjn...@verizon.net> wrote:
From: A. J. Ness <arthurjn...@verizon.net>
Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: PS to: Jacques de Saint-Luc
To: "Christopher Wilke" <chriswi...@yahoo.com>, "Baroque Lute List"
<baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Friday, 25 March, 2011, 0:18
I think Christopher makes some interesting points. I'll comment
below.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Wilke" <[1][1]chriswi...@yahoo.com>
To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[2][2]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>; "Baroque
lute
Dmth" <[3][3]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>; "Edward Martin"
<[4][4]e...@gamutstrings.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2011 8:42 AM
Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: PS to: Jacques de Saint-Luc
> Ed,
>
> --- On Wed, 3/23/11, Edward Martin <[5][5]e...@gamutstrings.com>
wrote:
>
>> Dufaut and Mouton both played in 'Austria' and were far
>> greater composers
>> and, probably, players. I suspect that J Gallot in his
>> 'long journey abroad'
>> (see the intro to the Gallot edition) also visited Vienna.
>> As far as I know
>> St Luc caused a stir at a wedding in Berlin in 1700, and
>> there are one or
>> two other references, but nothing to suggest he was as
>> highly-respected as
>> any of these three.
>>
>
> St. Luc was very highly regarded and presumably influential.
Baron
doesn't have much good to say about Franco composers with the
singular
exception of St. Luc. In fact, he specifically denigrates the
"other
three" you mention. In 'Study of the Lute' of 1727, Baron says,
>
> "In regard to the lute, the French have not accomplished much in
particular... Mouton and Dufaut followed their own genius and
neglected
the cantabile element. Gallot gave his pieces such strange names
that
one must ponder hard how they connect with the music..."
>
> "Saint-Luc [before which translator Douglas Alton Smith has
editorially inserted the first name 'Jacques de' in brackets] is one
of
the best, for he always allows something lyrical to flow into his
pieces..."
<<AJN>>And of course a composer in those days would alter the style
of
his music to suit the tastes of his Viennese patrons, in this case
Eugene of Savoy, and possibly Count Lobkowitz. Jacques (b. 1616)
was a
lutenist since we have his portrait with lute in hand.
> Douglas Alton Smith includes a quote from "Herr von Besser" about
the
wedding in 1700 in a footnote:
<<AJN>> The footnote is Baron's.
> "And because it just then happened that the splendid French
theorbist
and lutenist Monsieur de St. Luc was passing through Berlin on his
way
to Vienna, he was detained here until the nuptials to increase the
forces of the sinfonie with the well-known artists in our service -
Ricks, Attilio, Volumnier and others."
<<AJN>>Johann von Besser was a poet and chronicler at the Berlin
court. In his published diary of the wedding activities, he
describes
the luncheon in the Oranien-Saal where Saint-Luc created such a
sensation in playing "stille Musik" on his theorbo, lute and
guitar.
He describes him as "der Franzoesische grosse Kuenstler de St. Luc,"
which strikes me as meaning there is just one such person, and that
he
enjoyed some fame. He was under way from France to Vienna at the
time. He didn't travel from Vienna to Berlin, as some claim.
> Saint-Luc obviously had quite the reputation in Germanic lands.
No
doubt this is due to his emphasis on an easily identifiable primary
melodic line in lieu of the brise texture of his predecessors. Was
he
so highly regarded among the Germans simply because they didn't
really
understand what the other French guys were about? Or is he a
neglected
master waiting for a modern interpreter to really "get" him? I
haven't
played much of his music but personally, I'm not ready to jump to
any
conclusions about his skills as a composer or how they compare to
the
other Franco lute composers.
<<AJN>> I think it may be a little bit too early to discard Philippe
Vendrix's thoughts on the Saint Luc identification problems.
Without
doubt he has given the matter some considerable thought, since he is
now preparing a complete edition of the some 200 works by Saint-Luc
works for the Corpus des luthistes franc,ais.
<<AJN>> Part, if not most of the problems here, must be laid to the
feet of two authors of dictionary articles on the Saint-Luc family.
In
MGG (1963 issue) and New Grove (1970 edition) Jacques is mentioned,
but
all the Saint-Luc works are attributed to one Laurent Jacques
Alexandre
de Saint-Luc. That's where all these attributions on CDs and in
editions come from. I was even drawn into this fiction for my
"Sources
of Lute Music" article in New Grove. That's not one person, that's
THREE people. Only one is known to have been a musician, Jacques
(b.
1616, d. ca. 1708). He had two sons, Laurent (b. 1669) AND
Jacques-Alexandre (b. 1663), but neither are known to have been
musicians. And nowhere have I ever seen a lute piece attributed to
either of them. And surely if they had been professional players,
there would be records at the courts where they were employed. For
details, I guess we'll have to wait for Philippe's edition.
--ajn
> Chris
>
>
> Christopher Wilke
> Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer
> [6]www.christopherwilke.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> [7][6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. mailto:[7]chriswi...@yahoo.com
2. mailto:[8]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
3. mailto:[9]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
4. mailto:[10]e...@gamutstrings.com
5. mailto:[11]e...@gamutstrings.com
6. [12]http://www.christopherwilke.com/
7. [13]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=chriswi...@yahoo.com
2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
3. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
4. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=e...@gamutstrings.com
5. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=e...@gamutstrings.com
6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
7. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=chriswi...@yahoo.com
8. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
9. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
10. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=e...@gamutstrings.com
11. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=e...@gamutstrings.com
12. http://www.christopherwilke.com/
13. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
