Theo
You are quite right to raise these issues. They hasn't been raised,
so far.
Le 16 janv. 08 à 15:28, T. Diehl-Peshkur a écrit :
Hello Anthony, Martin and all,
Not wanting to add any more info to the full discussion that has
been going
on here, I would like to ask a
general question on the string issue: How often does one come
across frets
being stopped on courses 11, 10, 9, 8 or 7 ?
Sure there will be examples, but what I mean is, how common was it
really in
the mass of 17th centiury French lute literature ?
As I understand it, 5 and 6 are common, 7 and 8 rarer and usually
only on frets 1 & 3, 9c very rare, 10 extremely rare, and 11 (not
stoppable on many lutes).
In the end, many gut strings offered will sound quite lovely an
convincing
as open diapasons.
I hear many lutes that have full and warm basses whilst strung in gut,
historical compromises aside.
The problems come when you have to stop the large diapason with the
octave
string. This often requires
turning the finger a little towards the fret to equalize the
pressure on
both strings for intonation purposes.
And certain notes can sound quite weak with the big differences
between both
strings.
I think that is very interesting. Thanks for the idea. I am sure
there are ways of adapting to this problem, just as you are
suggesting, and perhaps Rob, did not give that a long enough try.
It takes quite a long to get used to gut, and to develop an adequate
technique, but perhaps Rob already had a long experience previously
to his attempt with the Maler,
or he just didn't have the time to wait. That is up to Rob to discuss
if he wants to.
I guess what I mean is that the real issue (aside from stability,
etc.) of
gut is the playability factor.
I have just heard too many gut strung lutes with 10th/11th course
basses of
1.7 or 2.00mm that sound really great to think that
the entire issue resides solely in the recreation of historical
strings...
I certainly would have tried to use pure gut, even if the loaded
strings did not become available; however, if the loaded strings are
commercialized, and solve problems, particularly for those using
small bodied lutes with short string lengths, then that is surely an
excellent thing. I agree that the historical way is not the only way
out of the problem. Satoh seems to have found an interesting way
round and it may, or may not be historical. Others will also find
other ways. All this leads to very interesting variation between
players. I happen to be interested in the theoretical question of
reconstruction, and take much pleasure in these issues, for their own
right; but many lutists just want to get on with playing their lutes,
and that is a fair comment.
The lute construction itself is also a big factor. And quite frankly
speaking, there are some builders who build instruments
that sound fab in gut, whilst the same model by another can be dull
and
clunky with the same strings.
It is more than just the number of ribs, in my view. The
differences in
sound of modern strung lutes vary widely enough
to make us examine that issue too!
I quite agree with you, some lutes, such as those by Maurice Ottiger,
just wouldn't work in gut, even though they are well built lutes; but
Martin Shepherd who made Rob's lute, himself uses and loves gut, so I
doubt if that would be the problem with Rob's Maler. Stephen
Gottlieb will not sell a lute without it being strung in gut, and as
he is the maker of my future 11c lute, I would very much doubt that
that would be an issue.
However, within lute makers, who believe in gut and make their lutes
with gut in mind, they are not all in agreement about how their lutes
should be gut-strung. Some believe in low tension others in equal
tension, perhaps a few believe in equal tension to touch. I think
this will probably effect the way they build their lutes, but I am
not sure about that. Perhaps, a lute maker will answer you
Sorry for the rambling!!
Theo
I ramble far more, no need to appologize
Regards
Anthony
From: Anthony Hind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 14:40:00 +0100
To: Edward Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, <baroque-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: I haven't got the guts anymore!
Ed
I thought I read that these Larosn lutes were both strung in gut (I
see in fact nothing is said to that effect). In Mp3 to be truthfull
it is difficult to tell much, except that the Burholtzer has more
bass presence and is rounder than the Frei, which was the main point
to my message.
I am glad to hear that the lute played by Satoh, in the photo is
actually a copy of the Greiff, not a Burkholtzer. I was afraid the
Greiff, might be very different from the Burkholtzer, but I see it
has the same mulitribbed form. Indeed, I imagined that Satoh chooses
a large bodied multi-ribbed lute with his low tension strings, to
compensate for the lack of bass this brings. Had the Greiff been
different, I would have been proved wrong (I still might be, off
course, as it might not be for that reason).
I am also imagining that he chose the Dutch lute form, both to evoke
the "Style Brise" repertoire with a multi-ribbed lute, and also to
have a longer bass course on 12c and 11c, again to compensate for
weak bass due to low tension, but without having over long strings
elsewhere. If that is indeed, what he is doing, it is rather clever
(and he kill three birds with one stone), but at the same time, this
can't be considered a general solution, just his own very good
compromise. All French Baroque lute players did not play such lutes,
and you yourself need gimped strings with your 11c Frei. I don't
think you could get away with pure low tension gut with this model
and such a short string length.
However, this is also, clearly, a very satisfactory solution which
works well for you, giving something nearer "equal to touch tension",
I would suppose.
Thanks for all your help and advice. I have received so much
information from lutists, lute makers, and string makers through this
list and the French list that I am just beginning to get to grips
with this very interesting question.
Best regards
Anthony
Le 16 janv. 08 =E0 13:50, Edward Martin a ecrit :
Satoh appears to have found quite a good compromise. Unless I am
mistaken, he appears to have adopted the Dutch/English/French? 12c
Lute, to partly get round this problem. On this, the 12c and 11c, on
the second neck, are quite long, while the other strings are
somewhat
shorter, thus allowing the player more agility; and at the same
time,
the bass is reinforced by the large bowl size of the Burkholtzer
lute.
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/old/Cleveland2006/TSatohConcert/
PlayingRT.jpg
Anthony,
That lute is actually a copy of the Greiff, not a Burkholtzer.
Although, the Burkholtzer, recorded on the Larson site is a 13 c
lute, strung in Gamut gut perhaps with gimped, we can hear that it
has a rounder more bass orientated sound the 11c Hans Frei, now in
the Wein Kunsthistorisches Museum, no. C34 :
Listen first the 13 c Burkholtzer:
http://www.daniellarson.com/lutes/berkholtzer/
berkholtzer_baroque_lute_sarabande.wma
Second the on the Frei C34 :
http://www.daniellarson.com/lutes/frei/frei%20baroque%20lute.wma
Yes,
That is Paul Berget on the Burkholtzer 13 course lute, and me on
the 11 course lute. Paul is strung entirely in nylon. It is his
choice. I used all gut.
Ed Martin owns an 11c Frei C34 with a similar string length to that
of the Mouton lute, and he uses a form of loaded string, since
gimping does load the gut. This might not be historically "correct",
but it is a compromise with which Ed is clearly happy (perhaps,
it is
Ed on the C34 recording above, certainly it is very probably the
type
of stringing he is using).
Correct.
ed
Edward Martin
2817 East 2nd Street
Duluth, Minnesota 55812
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
voice: (218) 728-1202
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