Dear Martyn,
thank you very much for sharing these appetizers to your forthcoming
paper about lutes in 18th century Italy. My curiosity has been raised,
and I'm eagerly looking forward to reading your paper!
Best wishes,
Mathias
Von: Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
An: "'Baroque lute Dmth'" <baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>, Mathias
Roesel <mathias.roe...@t-online.de>
Betreff: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: 'Baroque lute' songs
Datum: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 19:14:31 +0200
Dear Mathias,
Thanks for this.
Italian 7/8 course lutes are distinctly different to
the mandoras/gallichons found in German speaking lands in the 18th
century in a number of significant respects. Noteably:
1. Length of neck - mandoras in original state have room for 9 tied
frets with a tenth also on the neck; Italian lutes have only room
for 7
or 8 tied frets. This seems to me to be the most evident and obvious
difference.
2. String lengths of these 18th century Italian instruments is
generally short ie less than 60cm. That of mandoras (in original
state)
ranges between 66 - 76cm (large continuo gallichons in B or A are,
of
course even larger - up to high 90s).
3. Position of bridge on body - mandoras have bridges in the same
sort
of position on the body as contemporary Dm lutes, whereas these
Italian
instruments have bridges significantly higher up the body.
4. The rose of extant 18thc Italian instruments is an insert often
surrounded by purling or MoP inlay - mandora roses are carved in the
belly like Dm lutes.
5. I've written about these (and other) differences before (also see
archives) and have also speculated they continued to be tuned in the
old way (ie intervals like a renaissance lute) since this is how
Dalla
Casa tuned his mid 18thC small 10 course archlute. Note that the
short
string length easily allows the G (or even A) tuning. Tyler
suggested
the Italian instruments were tuned like the late 18th century
mandora
(in E - identical to the 'new' 6 course/string guitar) but there's
even
less evidence to support this view - and certainly none was
presented.
Incidentally, a good extant example of the new made Italian
instruments
is the Radice of 1775.
All told, a fascinating area and one in which there is much scope
for
organological research. Indeed, I'm currently developing a paper on
the development of the mandora/gallichon (ie further to my earlier
papers on the instruments) which will also include a look at the
18th
century Italian lute. Much of the latter study is based on extant
instruments and on iconography of the period and I'd be very
grateful
if anyone can draw my attention to Italian paintings from the 18th
century (especially mid to late) showing a lute being played.
Regarding Ms Hunt not having her mouth open, Peter Holman was the
first
draw my attention to this feature in many portraits of the period:
sugar had become widely available in large quantities and one
consequence of this was terrible teeth (ot lack of them!) - so
people
generally preffered to be painted with their mouths
closed.............
regards
Martyn
--- On Tue, 28/8/12, Mathias Roesel <[1]mathias.roe...@t-online.de>
wrote:
From: Mathias Roesel <[2]mathias.roe...@t-online.de>
Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: 'Baroque lute' songs
To: "'Baroque lute Dmth'" <[3]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Tuesday, 28 August, 2012, 15:33
Dear Martyn,
Thank you for all the information, that concerning the Hasse
tablatures
in
particular. As for the 18th century 8c lutes, I wonder what prevents
you
from labelling these instruments types of calichone / mandora. Is
there
any
reason for doubts?
As for Arabella Hunt, thanks for the hint to her portrait by
Kneller. I
may
be picky, but IMO she is not shown singing, but merely playing. You
might in
this case quote John Hawkins from his General History of the Science
and
Practive of Music, that Arabella Hunt sang to her lute the Scottish
folk
song Cold and Raw, as queen Mary II had requested her. That she was
singing
to her lute, is a detail, though, that IMO is intended to underline
the
inappropriate vulgarity of the act that left Henry Purcell, her
actual
accompanist, unemployed, as Hawkins remarks, prompting Purcell to
compose
the air May Her Bright Example Chase Vice, which has the tune in the
bass,
for the queen's next birthday.
Concerning the execution of thorough bass on the lute, my favourite
quote is
by Heinrich Albert who said, one should not do it as though one were
hacking
cabbage (i. e. full chords all the time) but according to the
possibilities
of the instrument, frequently repeating fading notes so that now the
upper
voice, then the middle, then the lower voices be stirred and perform
their
office. (Vol. 2, 1640, Point no. 5)
Mathias
> Dear Matthias,
>
> I agree with much of what you say.
>
> However regarding the observation that ' One may reasonably argue
> whether this is an accompaniment or an instrumental arrangement as
> there is no extra voice part. Instead, the lyrics are written
beneath
> the tablature which includes the voice part' I incline to the
view
> that because the words are shown below the tablature then this
was,
> indeed, more likely to be expected to be sung (and as a practical
help
> for unaccomplished singers).
>
> And regarding the observation that ' that discussions have been
going
> on whether these tablatures are intended for Baron's otherwise
> unassigned German theorbo in D-minor-tuning with its first course
in D,
> lacking the F-chanterelle.' I have my copy of the pieces to
hand
> and the first course (Dm tuning) is not only frequently employed
in the
> tablature realisations but melodic passages freely move between
the
> upper courses - including the first. Good examples in bars 12 and
17 of
> 'Appena Amor...' and other pieces. I also recall that whilst
being
> labelled 'basso continuo' parts the intabulations preserve some of
the
> string writing especially when the voice is silent (like the Beyer
in
> places).
>
> I should have stressed that my observation about the use of 7 and
8
> course lutes to accompany the voice in the 18th century (as
evidenced
> by paintings and extant 18th century Italian instruments) referred
only
> to Italian practice.
>
> In England too during the late 17th/early 18th centuries there's
some
> evidence that singers might accompany themselves on the 11 course
lute
> rather than the theorbo: the best example is is the celebrated
singer
> Arabella Hunt (1662-1705) who is depicted singing to her own
> accompaniment on the lute.
> [1][1]http://www.gac.culture.gov.uk/work.aspx?obj%610
>
> As you say, in France after 1646 there were no more printed lute
> tablature accompaniments. It is interesting tho' that the practice
of
> intabulation continued even on the theorbo and guitar. The
celebrated
> song writer Michel Lambert tells us that he originally intabulated
> his song accompaniments on the theorbo (one with probably just the
> first course an octave down) - tho' sadly only the printed
versions
> with staff notated figured bass seem to be extant. The guitar song
> tablatures accompaniments of Corbetta are, however, extant and
very
> fine they are too - and working well in performance.
>
> How much elaboration contemporary players would have added to a
simple
> realisation is hard to say - but John Wilson's written out
realisation
> of some songs for small theorbo (NB not Dm lute) are reasonably
> elaborate However he was a celebrated musician and perhaps most
> players would have been content with a simpler realisation.
>
> Finally, tho' not the Dm lute, there are quite a few extant
> intabulations of song accompaniments from the 18th century for
> mandora/gallichon - including such mind blowing scenarios as
Mozart's
> Queen of the night aria!
>
> Martyn
> .
> --- On Tue, 28/8/12, Mathias Roesel
<[2]mathias.roe...@t-online.de> wrote:
>
> From: Mathias Roesel <[3]mathias.roe...@t-online.de>
> Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: 'Baroque lute' songs
> To: "'baroque-lute mailing-list'"
<[4]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Date: Tuesday, 28 August, 2012, 12:10
>
> > There are indeed a few sources for songs accompanied by lute:
one
> such
> > which is readily vailable (tho' 18th century) is Beyer's 1760
> setting
> > of some Gellert odes. See this:
> >
> >
>
[1][2][5]http://petrucci.mus.auth.gr/imglnks/usimg/c/c2/IMSLP204541-
PML
P34
> 5466-Gel
> lert.pdf
> One may reasonably argue whether this is an accompaniment or an
> instrumental
> arrangement as there is no extra voice part. Instead, the lyrics
are
> written
> beneath the tablature which includes the voice part. That is also
the
> case
> with the songs in the Franconian collections (edited and published
by
> Joachim Domning: Augsburg, Staats- und Stadtbibliothek, Tonkunst
2DEG
> HS Fasz.
> III and Germanisches National-Museum Nuernberg, Ms 25461). See
also
>
[3][6]http://www.liederlexikon.de/lieder/sollen_nun_die_gruenen_jahr
e/e
dit
> ionc
> > And there's also things like the intabulated accompaniment
for
> lute to
> > a few Hasse songs in Leipzig III.11.46 'Opern Arien auf die
Laute
> > versezet Ao.1755 di R'.
> That is a different cup of tea, as this is thorough bass
intabulated,
> indeed. I seem to remember (may be misremembering), though, that
> discussions
> have been going on whether these tablatures are intended for
Baron's
> otherwise unassigned German theorbo in D-minor-tuning with its
first
> course
> in D, lacking the F-chanterelle.
> > Look at the engraved frontespiece of Playford's
> > First book of Select Ayres and Dialogues (specified for a
> > 'theorboe-lute' ) showing such an instrument being played.
Songs
> by
> > Lanier, Lawes, et al. I'll send you a scan from my own copy.
> Heinrich Albert published his Arien in Koenigsberg from 1638 on,
> including
> figured bass parts with each song. He named the theorbo as an
> instrument for
> accompaniment on the frontispiece of his vol. 2 (1640), but
explicitly
> referred to the lute in his prefaces (vol. 2 and 3), giving advice
as
> to how
> thorough bass should be executed on it. From that I have concluded
that
> he
> was referring the 12c double-headed lute so fashionable in his
days.
> Anyway,
> it can be safely assumed that lutenists in East Prussia were able
to
> play
> thorough bass from figured bass parts during the 1640ies.
> In France, Antoine de Boesset's 16th book with Airs mis en
tablature
> (1643)
> was the last print with tablatures for the lute (or the tuorbe, as
> Mersenne
> would call the theorboed 10c lute in vieil ton). Marin Mersenne
gave a
> composition for voice and thorough bass for the first time in 1644
(in
> his
> Cogitata), characterizing figured bass parts, nevertheless, as a
> decidedly
> Italian way of notation. The publisher Ballard decided in 1646
that no
> more
> songs would be printed with tablatures for the lute. Constantin
> Huygen's
> Pathodia Sacra et Profana (1647) was Ballard's first print of
voice
> parts
> with figured bass parts, exclusively.
> One may conclude that playing thorough bass from figured bass
parts had
> become familiar among French lutenists during the 1640ies (mind
you, on
> 10c
> theorboed lutes with renaissance tuning). Ballard's decision of
> stopping
> tablature prints for the lute may suggest yet another conclusion,
> though,
> viz. a certain parting of the ways. The accompaniment for singers
was
> seemingly taken over by the proper theorbo and the guitar, while
the
> French
> baroque lute with its new tunings was generally reserved for solo
> music.
> Provided lutenists in other European countries would follow the
French
> lead,
> that would imply that, say, after 1650 no lutenist worth his salt
would
> play
> continuo at all. They would pick up their theorbos in order to
> accompany
> singers, as much later still did Weiss, playing from figured bass
> parts.
> One exception shouldn't go unmentioned, though. Fundamenta der
> Lauten-Musique is a tutor for thorough bass playing on the 11c
lute in
> D-minor-tuning. It is available from the German Lute Society (the
> English
> translation of the Latin texts has been judged unfavourably by
several
> recent reviews, but the musical contents are made sufficiently
clear by
> the
> tablatures and staff notation).
> Mathias
> > --- On Mon, 27/8/12, William Samson
<[4][7]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk>
> wrote:
> >
> > From: William Samson <[5][8]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk>
> > Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] 'Baroque lute' songs
> > To: "baroque-lute mailing-list"
> <[6][9]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> > Date: Monday, 27 August, 2012, 21:03
> >
> > I notice that there are quite a number of 17th century
> paintings of
> > lutenists accompanying singers using an 11c or 12c lute.
Does
> > anyone
> > know if there is a published repertoire of pieces like
this, or
> were
> > the lutenists playing a continuo without using a
written-out
> > accompaniment?
> > I hope that makes sense.
> > Bill Samson
To get on or off this list see list information at
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References
1. [4]http://www.gac.culture.gov.uk/work.aspx?obj%610
2.
[5]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mathias.roesel@t-onl
ine.de
3.
[6]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mathias.roesel@t-onl
ine.de
4.
[7]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%C2%BAroque-lute@cs.d
artmouth.edu
5.
[8]http://petrucci.mus.auth.gr/imglnks/usimg/c/c2/IMSLP204541-PMLP34
6.
[9]http://www.liederlexikon.de/lieder/sollen_nun_die_gruenen_jahre/e
dit
7.
[10]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=willsam...@yahoo.co
.uk
8.
[11]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=willsam...@yahoo.co
.uk
9.
[12]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%C2%BAroque-lute@cs.
dartmouth.edu
10. [13]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
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11.
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12.
file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/L15110-1910TMP.html?ctlreferer&to=aHR0cDovL3VzLm1jODE3Lm1haWwueWFob28uY29tL21jL2NvbXBvc2U%2FdG8lQzIlQkFyb3F1ZS1sdXRlQGNzLmRhcnRtb3V0aC5lZHU%3D
13.
file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/L15110-1910TMP.html?ctlreferer&to=aHR0cDovL3d3dy5jcy5kYXJ0bW91dGguZWR1L353YmMvbHV0ZS1hZG1pbi9pbmRleC5odG1s
