> The elder may, of course, have= lived to a ripe old age but not, I > suspect, as a practicising m= usician: one modern note I've seen has him > travelling to Berlin = in 1700 (aged 84) to take part in the marriage of > Princess Louis= e of Brandenburg and Prince Frederick of Hesse-Cassel!
The ms. in Vienna has notes in German kurrentschrift on the first page, = excerpts from Walther's lexicon, or so I seem to remember. The gig in Berli= n is mentioned there. Mathias > MH > --- On Wed, 23/3/11, Edward Martin <ed@gamutstrings.= com> wrote: > From: Edward Martin <e...@gamutstrings.com><= br /> > Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: PS to: Jacques de Saint-Luc &g= t; To: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>, "Baroque lute Dm= th" > <baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Date: Wedne= sday, 23 March, 2011, 22:29 > > Dear Martyn and all, > I had some correspondence with Tim Crawford 15 years ago, and I was= > asking him about the notes written on Stephen Stubbs' CD of Sai= nt Luc. > Here are copies of this correspondence. No He did not = live that > long, as there were 2 Saint Luc's. Here is what Tim w= rote, 15 years > ago: > ><<<<Oh dear, oh d= ear! The composer in question was probably Jacques > de St Luc's > >son, Laurent (again, this is from memory). The music is *obvi= ously* > from a > >different generation than the 2 or = 3 pieces by JdeSL that survive; it > was > >probably c= omposed in the early 18th century, and is in the > proto-galant > >style we associate with de Visee, Losy and others rather than<= br /> > Gaultier, > >Pinel, Dufaut etc who were JdeSL's cont= emporaries.>>>>> > > > >Dear Tim, > > > > I would not challenge your knowledge of this = - I am a performer, not > a > >scholar in these areas.= Yes, the style does seem later to me, as > well. I > &g= t;was merely quoting what the liner notes said - they were written by = > Manuel > >Couvreur and Philippe Vendrix, translated by Ce= lia Skrine. Included > in the > >notes, on page 9, is= the following: > > > > "On 15 June, 1658, in the = Cathedral of Sainte-Gudule in Brussels, > >Saint-Luc married Is= abelle de Lagrenee, possibly a descendant of > Pierre > &= gt;Lagrenee, an oboist and violinist in the court band of King Henri IV > of > >France. He had several children by her including= two sons, > >Jacques-Alexandre, baptised at Sainte-Gudule on J= une 8, 1663, and > Laurent, > >baptised on 10 August 1= 669, but , contrary to what most musicologists > claim, >= >there is no justification for supposing that they undertook any kind > of > >musical activity. The last documented evidence= of the presence of > Saint-Luc > >and his family in B= russels dates from 14 August 1684." > > > >On page = 11, it states," Amongst the pieces with titles which > contribute = to a > >picture of the composers last years, the latest date is= one that > >commemorates the capture of Lille in 1708. Saint-= Luc was by then 92 > years > >old and must have died s= hortly afterwards. Certainly there is no > trace of > &g= t;any later work" > > > >I agree with you Tim - 92= years old is incredible, for that century! > > > >= The notes also state that there are 2 main sources for his solo lute = > works, > >in carefully copied manuscripts: > >= > >ms.no. S.m. 1586 in the Austrian National Library at Vienna= , and > > >ms.no. X.L.b.210 in the library of Prague Univers= ity. > > > >The last paragraph, page 12, states: > > > >"To Jacques de Saint-Luc undoubtedly belongs t= he credit for > transmitting the > >heritage of French= lute music to a new generation of Viennese > lutenists, the = > >last exponents of an instrument which was destined soon to disapp= ear > from > >the musical scene." > > > Thanks for passing this on. I am *extremely* skeptical that the St L= uc > of > these MSS (and the several more in the same han= d which have parts for > violin > and bass) is the same a= s the well-documented Jacques (about whom a > book was > = written early this century). There is *no hint* of music in an earlier > style > in the MSS. > As for the final paragraph, = I couldn't disagree more with the authors. > If > they be= lieve that the Viennese lutenists were "the last exponents of > an= instrument which was destined soon to disappear from the musical >= ; scene," then > they either don't regard Weiss as a significant f= igure, or are > pig-ignorant. > Dufaut and Mouton both pl= ayed in 'Austria' and were far greater > composers > and,= probably, players. I suspect that J Gallot in his 'long journey >= abroad' > (see the intro to the Gallot edition) also visited Vien= na. As far as I > know > St Luc caused a stir at a weddin= g in Berlin in 1700, and there are one > or > two other r= eferences, but nothing to suggest he was as > highly-respected as<= br /> > any of these three. > I suspect Philippe Vendrix (who k= nows a thing or two) just read this > too > quickly. > It is, I'm afraid, the result of misplaced scholarly caution. Becaus= e > (and > do not have the facts to challenge this) there= is no evidence that > JdeSL's > sons were lutenists, and= we have no evidence of JdeSL's date of > death, the music *must*= be by him. This simply does not follow - it is > a 'non sequitur'= . It could be by a cousin, an undocumented son or > someone impers= onating any one of them. One has to take the scholarly > risk of l= ooking > at the music, the MSS and their stylistic features and ma= king a > *judgement*! > Not hard in this case. >= (Steve Stubbs, a musician I greatly respect, asked me some years ago = > to think > about doing some liner notes for him but I never = heard any > more.)>>>>>>>>>>>>= >>>>>>>>>>> > I hope this helps. = I trust Tim's scholarship in this matter. > ed > At 11:2= 5 AM 3/23/2011, Martyn Hodgson wrote: > > By chance I've ju= st looked for any recorded music of Saint-Luc > and saw >= > that there's a CD by a 'Jacques-Alexandre de Saint Luc' with >= > dates given as 1663 - c.1715. I have no knowledge of the so= urce of > > this information but it would certainly fit with= the speculation > of two > > individuals with the = same, or similar,names. The players are > Jacques > > = Vandeville oboe and Daniel Fournier lute (and theorbo!). > >= > > MH > > --- On Wed, 23/3/11, Martyn Hodgs= on > <[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > > > > From: Martyn Hodgson <[2]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk&g= t; > > Subject: Jacques de Saint-Luc > > = To: "Baroque lute Dmth" <[3]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > > Date: Wednesday, 23 March, 2011, 15:47 > > >= ; > > > The dates of this composer are generally given as= 1616 - 1710 > which > > seems a phenomenal life sp= an for the time and even more so when > his > > ext= ant lute works seem to be in the style of the early decades of > t= he > > 18th century (even down to fashionable > >= ; doubling of the top and bottom line by strings) which would have = > made > > him well into his 90s when these works were c= omposed....... His > > compositional style also seems much c= loser to Austro-germanic > composers > > like Logy,= von Radolt, Hintherleithner et al who flourished > around the > > turn of the century being predominantly in a polarised treb= le and > bass > > manner. > > >= ; > I can find little about this shadowy figure but am being drawn to= > the > > speculation that there may have been two= different composers > with the > > same name (fat= her and son/nephew perhaps). Can anybody shed > further >= > light? Perhaps I've missed a paper? > > > &g= t; One clue ought to be the names of pieces such as 'La Prise de > <= br /> > Barcellonne', which might suggest a date of 1705 or 1714 but co= uld be > > some earlier investment, or 'Le defaittes des Fra= ncois par les > Allemand > > Devant Turin' which su= ggests 1703. Again I find it hard to > believe that > >= ; the same San Luc was composing such 'modern' programmatic music = > at such > > a ripe old age. > > > = > MH > > > > -- > > >= > > >To get on or off this list see list information at > >[4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html = > Edward Martin > 2817 East 2nd Street > Duluth, Minn= esota 55812 > e-mail: [5]e...@gamutstrings.com > voice: = (218) 728-1202 > [6]http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=3D16602= 98871&ref=3Dname > [7]http://www.myspace.com/edslute >= ; > -- > > References > > 1= . > http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dhodgsonmartyn@y= ahoo.co.uk > 2. > http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compo= se?to=3dhodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk > 3. > http://uk.mc263.= mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3dbaroque-l...@cs.dartmouth.edu > 4. = http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 5. http:/= /uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3...@gamutstrings.com 6. > = http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=3D1660298871&ref=3Dname &g= t; 7. http://www.myspace.com/edslute > > >
