Hello Ton, Great to read that you are following up on this matter.
I'd like to share my feedback with you so let's do that over a cup of coffee/tea. Coming weeks I'm quite busy. I'll send a proposal via email. kind regards, Monique On Tue, Oct 5, 2021 at 5:26 PM Ton Roosendaal via Bf-committers < bf-committers@blender.org> wrote: > Hi everyone, > > This was a personal mail to Monique, accidentally sent to the list. > > You can use google translate if you're curious, but basically I invited > Monique to share further feedback on the situation she experienced as > unwelcoming, and how we can improve. We both live in Amsterdam, we can > communicate directly easily. > > Thanks, > > -Ton- > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ton Roosendaal - t...@blender.org - www.blender.org > Chairman Blender Foundation, CEO Blender Institute / Studio > Buikslotermeerplein 161, 1025 ET Amsterdam, the Netherlands > > > On 05/10/2021 17:15, Ton Roosendaal wrote: > > > > Hoi Monique, > > > > Ik denk dat jouw feedback belangrijk en welkom is, maar op deze > > mannier blijft het hangen in vage woorden. Wat is precies gebeurd toen > > we "hired more and more devs"? Wanneer was dat, na de epic grant? > > > > Maar vooral, hoe kunnen we dit beter doen? Ik hoor hier jou graag > > over, en dat mag ook in privee. > > > > De mail van Thomas vind ikzelf to the point. Thomas begint pas > > officieel (voltijd) in november trouwens. Hij zal nog veel moeten > inhalen. > > > > Groet, > > > > -Ton- > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Ton Roosendaal - t...@blender.org - www.blender.org > > Chairman Blender Foundation, CEO Blender Institute / Studio > > Buikslotermeerplein 161, 1025 ET Amsterdam, the Netherlands > > > > > > On 24/09/2021 14:48, Monique Dewanchand via Bf-committers wrote: > >> I think Ryan's remarks raises some valid points. > >> > >> Putting words like "sigh" in your reports, to me, is not very > professional. > >> As developers we all have had our moments of frustration and sometimes > >> unwillingly express those. > >> I hope we can forgive Bastien for this. > >> However I would expect from a Development Coordinator to notice these > types > >> of things and act upon them. But perhaps my expectations are incorrect. > >> Is someone responsible for the quality of 'official' development > >> communications (like release notes etc )? > >> > >> In my experience, years and years ago, when there were only 2 devs > >> receiving some minimalistic contributions from Blender, I loved > >> contributing to Blender. > >> I found the overall vibe and attitude very pleasant, there was respect, > >> room for good discussions and constructive criticism. This vibe rapidly > >> changed when Blender started to hire more and more devs. > (More)Processes, > >> rules and regulations made their way into Blender development, all for > good > >> reasons, but at the expense of respect, good discussions and > constructive > >> criticism. > >> Contributing to Blender Development had become frustrating for me, so I > >> stopt and decided to contribute in a different way (teaching Blender and > >> working on add-ons). > >> > >> In recent years I've noticed quite an improvement in the way blender > >> developers are communicating with "contributors". Is it perfect? Not > yet. > >> Is there room for improvement? Yes, but it's definitely better than > what it > >> used to be. I do think that contributors are still very valuable for > >> Blender development so I hope that blender devs, coordinators and > >> contributors take a bit more care in how they cooperate and communicate. > >> > >> kind regards, > >> Monique > >> > >> On Fri, Sep 24, 2021 at 12:42 PM Thomas Dinges via Bf-committers < > >> bf-committers@blender.org> wrote: > >> > >>> Hi Ryan, > >>> > >>> I am not Dalai, but as Developer Community Coordinator I will try to > >>> answer. > >>> > >>> 1) As Ankit already mentioned, the message was likely marked as spam by > >>> some e-mail filter. Nothing more :) > >>> > >>> 2) Bastien replied to your mail and explained the situation and the > >>> reason for his note in the report. He also apologized and confirmed > that > >>> it was not meant as a personal attack. > >>> > >>> The Blender developers do their best to communicate professionally and > >>> friendly. In my (round about) 7 years as contributor, in my free time, > I > >>> always felt welcome. > >>> There were of course times, when I disagreed with the decisions made by > >>> module owners or the admins. At times this was a little bit > frustrating. > >>> But the communication was always professional and friendly. > >>> > >>> We can of course argue about remarks such as the "(sigh...") in a > >>> report, but Bastien explained the situation and I don't see a personal > >>> attack in there, only a little bit of frustration and a remark that is > >>> human. > >>> > >>> Best regards, > >>> Thomas > >>> > >>> Am 24.09.2021 um 07:59 schrieb Ryan Inch via Bf-committers: > >>>> Thanks for your quick reply Bastian. My email wasn't a prompt to be > >>>> defensive but a request for clarification from Dalai as the Blender > >>>> Development Coordinator. Depending on what Dalai says, I'll follow up > >>>> with your points if need be because this is not about me but how > >>>> community developers are treated. > >>>> > >>>> Dalai, as Blender Development Coordinator, one specific request from > >>>> the Epic MegaGrant was to make Blender more professional. I and other > >>>> community devs and members do not think this kind of notation is > >>>> professional. It also disincentivizes engagement between core devs > >>>> and community devs who do consider this a type of attack. > >>>> > >>>> So again, my question to you as the Blender Development Coordinator is > >>>> 'In what case is it acceptable for a developer to put something like > >>>> "Spent time on re-explaining/re-investigating T9599 (sigh…)." in their > >>>> official weekly development notes?' And now, in what case is it > >>>> acceptable to mark an email asking about such an issue as spam? I was > >>>> under the impression that personal attacks were not tolerated? > >>>> > >>>> Ryan > >>>> > >>>> On 2021-09-21 06:00 AM,bf-committers-requ...@blender.org wrote: > >>>>> Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 09:20:11 +0200 > >>>>> From: Bastien Montagne<montagn...@wanadoo.fr> > >>>>> To: Ryan Inch via Bf-committers<bf-committers@blender.org> > >>>>> Subject: Re: [Bf-committers] *** SPAM *** Weekly Development Notes > >>>>> Followup > >>>>> Message-ID:<c6100f56-9813-aebe-01ae-5e3b70f57...@wanadoo.fr> > >>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed > >>>>> > >>>>> Hi Ryan, > >>>>> > >>>>> Not sure how you see that as a personal attack? Fact is, I think > >>>>> spending half a day on something does earns it a note in the weekly > >>>>> report. > >>>>> > >>>>> And yes, I was frustrated spending time having to demo the issue > after > >>>>> explaining it's cause/source, finding again the exact use case > >>>>> triggering it, rebuilding both branch and master to ensure it was > proper > >>>>> example, etc. We all have (tight) schedules and I was frustrated this > >>>>> was considered high priority enough to take it over more pressing > >>>>> matters for Blender 3.0 upcoming BCon2. > >>>>> > >>>>> I know that expressing personal frustration may not be a good idea, > but > >>>>> that does not in any case make it a personal attack, sorry if you > felt > >>>>> it like that. > >>>>> > >>>>> Cheers, > >>>>> Bastien. > >>>>> > >>>>> On 9/21/21 8:49 AM, Ryan Inch via Bf-committers wrote: > >>>>>> Hello Dalai, > >>>>>> I missed reading Bastien's weekly notes last week or I would have > >>>>>> brought this issue up then. In Bastien's notes for Week 425 - 09/04 > >>>>>> to 09/10, one of his notes is this: "Spent time on > >>>>>> re-explaining/re-investigating T9599 (sigh…)." > >>>>>> > >>>>>> In what case is it acceptable for a developer to put something like > >>>>>> this in their official weekly development notes? I was under the > >>>>>> impression that personal attacks were not tolerated? (And for the > >>>>>> record it's D9599 not T) > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Ryan > >>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> Bf-committers mailing list > >>>>>> Bf-committers@blender.org > >>>>>> List details, subscription details or unsubscribe: > >>>>>> https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers > >>>>> ------------------------------ > >>>>> > >>>>> Subject: Digest Footer > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> Bf-committers mailing list > >>>>> Bf-committers@blender.org > >>>>> https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> ------------------------------ > >>>>> > >>>>> End of Bf-committers Digest, Vol 993, Issue 1 > >>>>> ********************************************* > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> Bf-committers mailing list > >>>> Bf-committers@blender.org > >>>> List details, subscription details or unsubscribe: > >>>> https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Bf-committers mailing list > >>> Bf-committers@blender.org > >>> List details, subscription details or unsubscribe: > >>> https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers > >>> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Bf-committers mailing list > >> Bf-committers@blender.org > >> List details, subscription details or unsubscribe: > >> https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers > _______________________________________________ > Bf-committers mailing list > Bf-committers@blender.org > List details, subscription details or unsubscribe: > https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers > _______________________________________________ Bf-committers mailing list Bf-committers@blender.org List details, subscription details or unsubscribe: https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers