Re: [bitcoin-dev] Address expiration times should be added to BIP-173

2017-09-29 Thread Gregory Maxwell via bitcoin-dev
On Fri, Sep 29, 2017 at 12:45 PM, Andreas Schildbach via bitcoin-dev wrote: > 15+ Mio Coinbase users Who's payment protocol SSL cert was expired for months without even generating a post on reddit. Not exactly convincing there. The fact that someone supports it doesn't mean its being used.

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Address expiration times should be added to BIP-173

2017-09-29 Thread Peter Todd via bitcoin-dev
On Fri, Sep 29, 2017 at 02:45:32PM +0200, Andreas Schildbach via bitcoin-dev wrote: > On 09/29/2017 11:55 AM, Peter Todd via bitcoin-dev wrote: > > >>> I'm well aware. As the payment protocol hasn't caught on - and doesn't > >>> fully > >>> overlap all the usecases that addresses do anyway - I t

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Address expiration times should be added to BIP-173

2017-09-29 Thread Andreas Schildbach via bitcoin-dev
On 09/29/2017 11:55 AM, Peter Todd via bitcoin-dev wrote: >>> I'm well aware. As the payment protocol hasn't caught on - and doesn't fully >>> overlap all the usecases that addresses do anyway - I think we should >>> consider >>> bringing this important feature to Bitcoin addresses too. >> >> Has

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Address expiration times should be added to BIP-173

2017-09-29 Thread Sjors Provoost via bitcoin-dev
Op 29 sep. 2017, om 05:18 heeft Peter Todd het volgende geschreven: > > On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 03:43:05PM +0300, Sjors Provoost via bitcoin-dev > wrote: >> Peter Todd wrote: >> Perhaps outside the scope of BIP173, but what about baking it into the >> protocol? That way a transaction that's se

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Address expiration times should be added to BIP-173

2017-09-29 Thread Peter Todd via bitcoin-dev
On Fri, Sep 29, 2017 at 10:44:11AM +0200, Andreas Schildbach via bitcoin-dev wrote: > On 09/29/2017 03:45 AM, Peter Todd via bitcoin-dev wrote: > > On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 12:09:59PM +0200, Andreas Schildbach via > > bitcoin-dev wrote: > >> This feels redundant to me; the payment protocol already

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Address expiration times should be added to BIP-173

2017-09-29 Thread Andreas Schildbach via bitcoin-dev
On 09/29/2017 03:45 AM, Peter Todd via bitcoin-dev wrote: > On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 12:09:59PM +0200, Andreas Schildbach via bitcoin-dev > wrote: >> This feels redundant to me; the payment protocol already has an >> expiration time. > > I'm well aware. As the payment protocol hasn't caught on - a

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Address expiration times should be added to BIP-173

2017-09-28 Thread Peter Todd via bitcoin-dev
On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 03:43:05PM +0300, Sjors Provoost via bitcoin-dev wrote: > Peter Todd wrote: > Perhaps outside the scope of BIP173, but what about baking it into the > protocol? That way a transaction that's sent too late, simply won't get > confirmed. This removes the need for refund logi

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Address expiration times should be added to BIP-173

2017-09-28 Thread Gregory Maxwell via bitcoin-dev
On Fri, Sep 29, 2017 at 1:50 AM, Peter Todd wrote: > What do you mean by "an embedded amount"? I ask you to pay 1 Bitcoin to bc1blahblah. ...you make a typo, or a poorly placed cosmic ray switches it in your ram to bc1blohblahbah. No problem, it'll get rejected. (even if the cosmic ray happens

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Address expiration times should be added to BIP-173

2017-09-28 Thread Peter Todd via bitcoin-dev
On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 12:58:30AM +, Gregory Maxwell wrote: > On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 4:06 PM, Peter Todd via bitcoin-dev > wrote: > > Re-use of old addresses is a major problem, not only for privacy, but also > > operationally: services like exchanges frequently have problems with users > >

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Address expiration times should be added to BIP-173

2017-09-28 Thread Peter Todd via bitcoin-dev
On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 12:09:59PM +0200, Andreas Schildbach via bitcoin-dev wrote: > This feels redundant to me; the payment protocol already has an > expiration time. I'm well aware. As the payment protocol hasn't caught on - and doesn't fully overlap all the usecases that addresses do anyway -

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Address expiration times should be added to BIP-173

2017-09-28 Thread Luke Dashjr via bitcoin-dev
On Thursday 28 September 2017 2:13:48 PM Andreas Schildbach via bitcoin-dev wrote: > On 09/28/2017 02:43 PM, Sjors Provoost via bitcoin-dev wrote: > >> This feels redundant to me; the payment protocol already has an > >> expiration time. > > > > The BIP-70 payment protocol has significant overhea

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Address expiration times should be added to BIP-173

2017-09-28 Thread Sjors Provoost via bitcoin-dev
Op 28 sep. 2017, om 18:06 heeft Andreas Schildbach via bitcoin-dev het volgende geschreven: > > On 09/28/2017 04:41 PM, Sjors Provoost via bitcoin-dev wrote: > >>> The payment request message is just as one-way as an address is. It is >>> already being emailed and printed on an invoice, in fact

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Address expiration times should be added to BIP-173

2017-09-28 Thread Andreas Schildbach via bitcoin-dev
On 09/28/2017 04:41 PM, Sjors Provoost via bitcoin-dev wrote: >> The payment request message is just as one-way as an address is. It is >> already being emailed and printed on an invoice, in fact it often acts >> as the invoice. > > True and the more complicated fields, like a digital signature,

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Address expiration times should be added to BIP-173

2017-09-28 Thread Sjors Provoost via bitcoin-dev
Op 28 sep. 2017, om 17:13 heeft Andreas Schildbach via bitcoin-dev het volgende geschreven: > > On 09/28/2017 02:43 PM, Sjors Provoost via bitcoin-dev wrote: > >>> This feels redundant to me; the payment protocol already has an >>> expiration time. >> >> The BIP-70 payment protocol has signifi

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Address expiration times should be added to BIP-173

2017-09-28 Thread Andreas Schildbach via bitcoin-dev
On 09/28/2017 02:43 PM, Sjors Provoost via bitcoin-dev wrote: >> This feels redundant to me; the payment protocol already has an >> expiration time. > > The BIP-70 payment protocol has significant overhead and most importantly > requires back and forth. Emailing a bitcoin address or printing it

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Address expiration times should be added to BIP-173

2017-09-28 Thread Sjors Provoost via bitcoin-dev
Peter Todd wrote: > > Re-use of old addresses is a major problem, not only for privacy, but also > operationally: services like exchanges frequently have problems with users > sending funds to addresses whose private keys have been lost or stolen; [...] > > To help combat this problem, I sugges

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Address expiration times should be added to BIP-173

2017-09-28 Thread Mark Friedenbach via bitcoin-dev
First, there’s been no discussion so far for address expiration to be part of “the protocol” which usually means consensus rules or p2p. This is purely about wallets and wallet information exchange protocols. There’s no way for the sender to know whether an address has been used without a compl

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Address expiration times should be added to BIP-173

2017-09-28 Thread CryptAxe via bitcoin-dev
tion.org > on behalf of Chris > Priest via bitcoin-dev > *Sent:* Wednesday, September 27, 2017 3:35 PM > *To:* Peter Todd; Bitcoin Protocol Discussion > *Subject:* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Address expiration times should be added > to BIP-173 > > A better solution is to just have the s

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Address expiration times should be added to BIP-173

2017-09-28 Thread Andreas Schildbach via bitcoin-dev
This feels redundant to me; the payment protocol already has an expiration time. On 09/27/2017 06:06 PM, Peter Todd via bitcoin-dev wrote: > Re-use of old addresses is a major problem, not only for privacy, but also > operationally: services like exchanges frequently have problems with users > se

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Address expiration times should be added to BIP-173

2017-09-27 Thread Gregory Maxwell via bitcoin-dev
On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 4:06 PM, Peter Todd via bitcoin-dev wrote: > Re-use of old addresses is a major problem, not only for privacy, but also > operationally: services like exchanges frequently have problems with users > sending funds to addresses whose private keys have been lost or stolen; the

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Address expiration times should be added to BIP-173

2017-09-27 Thread Gregory Maxwell via bitcoin-dev
On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 7:35 PM, Chris Priest via bitcoin-dev wrote: > A better solution is to just have the sending wallet check to see if the > address you are about to send to has been used before. So every wallet needs all the addresses ever used and a fast index into them? This seems pretty

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Address expiration times should be added to BIP-173

2017-09-27 Thread Peter Todd via bitcoin-dev
On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 12:06:54PM -0400, Peter Todd via bitcoin-dev wrote: > Being just an expiration time, seconds-level resolution is unnecessary, and > may give the wrong impression. I'd suggest either: > > 1) Hour resolution - 2^24 hours = 1914 years > 2) Month resolution - 2^16 months = 5458

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Address expiration times should be added to BIP-173

2017-09-27 Thread Peter Todd via bitcoin-dev
On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 12:03:44PM -0700, Mark Friedenbach wrote: > While there is a lot that I would like to comment on, for the moment I will > just mention that you should consider using the 17 bit relative time format > used in CSV as an offset from the birthdate of the address, a field all

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Address expiration times should be added to BIP-173

2017-09-27 Thread Peter Todd via bitcoin-dev
On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 01:35:33PM -0600, Chris Priest wrote: > A better solution is to just have the sending wallet check to see if the > address you are about to send to has been used before. If it's a fresh My concern is not primarily people re-using addresses, but rather people using stale add

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Address expiration times should be added to BIP-173

2017-09-27 Thread Nick Pudar via bitcoin-dev
that the correct address is being used. From: bitcoin-dev-boun...@lists.linuxfoundation.org on behalf of Chris Priest via bitcoin-dev Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2017 3:35 PM To: Peter Todd; Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Address e

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Address expiration times should be added to BIP-173

2017-09-27 Thread CryptAxe via bitcoin-dev
See https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/9722 What still needs to be done is that during the first start up after updating with this popup, the wallet needs to scan for addresses that have been used in the past. That way the popup isn't only shown for addresses that are reused after updating.

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Address expiration times should be added to BIP-173

2017-09-27 Thread Chris Priest via bitcoin-dev
A better solution is to just have the sending wallet check to see if the address you are about to send to has been used before. If it's a fresh address, it sends it through without any popup alert. If the address has history going back a certain amount of time, then a popup comes up and notifies th

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Address expiration times should be added to BIP-173

2017-09-27 Thread Mark Friedenbach via bitcoin-dev
While there is a lot that I would like to comment on, for the moment I will just mention that you should consider using the 17 bit relative time format used in CSV as an offset from the birthdate of the address, a field all addresses should also have. This would also mean that addresses cannot

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Address expiration times should be added to BIP-173

2017-09-27 Thread CryptAxe via bitcoin-dev
I think we need something like this. Hour resolution seems like the correct choice to me. Please someone steal whatever code you can from this PR when implementing the UI for BIP173 expiration: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/9722 I have a rebased version as well if anyone wants it. On

[bitcoin-dev] Address expiration times should be added to BIP-173

2017-09-27 Thread Peter Todd via bitcoin-dev
Re-use of old addresses is a major problem, not only for privacy, but also operationally: services like exchanges frequently have problems with users sending funds to addresses whose private keys have been lost or stolen; there are multiple examples of exchanges getting hacked, with users continuin