Re: [bitcoin-dev] RBF Pinning with Counterparties and Competing Interest

2020-04-28 Thread Rusty Russell via bitcoin-dev
"David A. Harding via bitcoin-dev" writes: > To avoid the excessive wasting of bandwidth. Bitcoin Core's defaults > require each replacement pay a feerate of 10 nBTC/vbyte over an existing > transaction or package, and the defaults also allow transactions or > packages up to 100,000 vbytes in

Re: [bitcoin-dev] RBF Pinning with Counterparties and Competing Interest

2020-04-23 Thread David A. Harding via bitcoin-dev
On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 03:53:37PM -0700, Matt Corallo wrote: > if you focus on sending the pinning transaction to miner nodes > directly (which isn't trivial, but also not nearly as hard as it > sounds), you could still pull off the attack. If the problem is that miners might have information

Re: [bitcoin-dev] RBF Pinning with Counterparties and Competing Interest

2020-04-22 Thread Jeremy via bitcoin-dev
Hi everyone, Sorry to just be getting to a response here. Hadn't noticed it till now. *(Plug: If anyone or their organizations would like to assist in funding the work described below for a group of developers, I've been working to put resources together for funding the above for a few months

Re: [bitcoin-dev] RBF Pinning with Counterparties and Competing Interest

2020-04-22 Thread Matt Corallo via bitcoin-dev
On 4/22/20 7:27 PM, Olaoluwa Osuntokun wrote: > >> Indeed, that is what I’m suggesting > > Gotcha, if this is indeed what you're suggesting (all HTLC spends are now > 2-of-2 multi-sig), then I think the modifications to the state machine I > sketched out in an earlier email are required. An

Re: [bitcoin-dev] RBF Pinning with Counterparties and Competing Interest

2020-04-22 Thread Olaoluwa Osuntokun via bitcoin-dev
> Indeed, that is what I’m suggesting Gotcha, if this is indeed what you're suggesting (all HTLC spends are now 2-of-2 multi-sig), then I think the modifications to the state machine I sketched out in an earlier email are required. An exact construction which achieves the requirements of "you

Re: [bitcoin-dev] RBF Pinning with Counterparties and Competing Interest

2020-04-22 Thread Olaoluwa Osuntokun via bitcoin-dev
> This seems like a somewhat unnecessary drive-by insult of a project you > don't contribute to, but feel free to start with a concrete suggestion > here :). This wasn't intended as an insult at all. I'm simply saying if there's concern about worst case eviction/replacement, optimizations likely

Re: [bitcoin-dev] RBF Pinning with Counterparties and Competing Interest

2020-04-22 Thread Matt Corallo via bitcoin-dev
Hmm, that's an interesting suggestion, it definitely raises the bar for attack execution rather significantly. Because lightning (and other second-layer systems) already relies heavily on uncensored access to blockchain data, its reasonable to extend the "if you don't have enough blocks,

Re: [bitcoin-dev] RBF Pinning with Counterparties and Competing Interest

2020-04-22 Thread David A. Harding via bitcoin-dev
On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 03:03:29PM -0400, Antoine Riard wrote: > > In that case, would it be worth re-implementing something like a BIP61 > reject message but with an extension that returns the txids of any > conflicts? > > That's an interesting idea, but an attacker can create a local conflict

Re: [bitcoin-dev] RBF Pinning with Counterparties and Competing Interest

2020-04-22 Thread Antoine Riard via bitcoin-dev
> In that case, would it be worth re-implementing something like a BIP61 reject message but with an extension that returns the txids of any conflicts? That's an interesting idea, but an attacker can create a local conflict in your mempool and then send the preimage tx to make hit recentRejects

Re: [bitcoin-dev] RBF Pinning with Counterparties and Competing Interest

2020-04-22 Thread David A. Harding via bitcoin-dev
On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 10:43:14PM -0400, Matt Corallo via Lightning-dev wrote: > A lightning counterparty (C, who received the HTLC from B, who > received it from A) today could, if B broadcasts the commitment > transaction, spend an HTLC using the preimage with a low-fee, > RBF-disabled

Re: [bitcoin-dev] RBF Pinning with Counterparties and Competing Interest

2020-04-22 Thread David A. Harding via bitcoin-dev
On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 09:13:34PM -0700, Olaoluwa Osuntokun wrote: > On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 10:43:14PM -0400, Matt Corallo via Lightning-dev > wrote: > > While this is somewhat unintuitive, there are any number of good anti-DoS > > reasons for this, eg: > > None of these really strikes me as

Re: [bitcoin-dev] RBF Pinning with Counterparties and Competing Interest

2020-04-21 Thread Olaoluwa Osuntokun via bitcoin-dev
Hi Matt, > While this is somewhat unintuitive, there are any number of good anti-DoS > reasons for this, eg: None of these really strikes me as "good" reasons for this limitation, which is at the root of this issue, and will also plague any more complex Bitcoin contracts which rely on nested

[bitcoin-dev] RBF Pinning with Counterparties and Competing Interest

2020-04-20 Thread Matt Corallo via bitcoin-dev
[Hi bitcoin-dev, in lightning-land we recently discovered some quite frustrating issues which I thought may merit broader discussion] While reviewing the new anchor outputs spec [1] last week, I discovered it introduced a rather nasty ability for a user to use RBF Pinning to steal in-flight