Re: [ccp4bb] Experimental phasing vs molecular replacement

2018-12-06 Thread Pavel Afonine
Hi, > Any time you do a thought experiment you make a fake-data data set, the > "true" phases and "true" amplitudes become the ones you put into the > simulation process. This is by definition. Is there potential for > circular reasoning? Of course! But you can do controls: > this is so

Re: [ccp4bb] Experimental phasing vs molecular replacement

2018-12-06 Thread Dale Tronrud
What may be counter-intuitive when looked at in one way may be perfectly expected from another point of view. I look at these maps as the result of a single cycle of steepest descent refinement where the parameters are the density values of the map sampled on the grid. If you start with a map

Re: [ccp4bb] Experimental phasing vs molecular replacement

2018-12-06 Thread James Holton
Sorry for the confusion, I was going for brevity. Any time you do a thought experiment you make a fake-data data set, the "true" phases and "true" amplitudes become the ones you put into the simulation process.  This is by definition.  Is there potential for circular reasoning?  Of course! 

Re: [ccp4bb] Experimental phasing vs molecular replacement

2018-12-06 Thread Phoebe A. Rice
A point I like to make to new trainees trying to solve structures: Model phases from a good model are pretty good, but from a practical viewpoint, if your initial model for molecular replacement is that good, the resulting structure will probably not tell you much you didn't already know (with

[ccp4bb] AW: [ccp4bb] Experimental phasing vs molecular replacement

2018-12-06 Thread Herman . Schreuder
JISCMAIL.AC.UK] Im Auftrag von Keller, Jacob Gesendet: Donnerstag, 6. Dezember 2018 04:37 An: CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK Betreff: [EXTERNAL] Re: [ccp4bb] Experimental phasing vs molecular replacement >>That said, model phases are not so bad.  In fact, in all my experiments with >>fake dat

Re: [ccp4bb] Experimental phasing vs molecular replacement

2018-12-05 Thread Keller, Jacob
>>That said, model phases are not so bad.  In fact, in all my experiments with >>fake data the model-phased 2mFo-DFc map always has the best correlation to >>the "true" map.  If you substitute the "true" phases and use the 2mFo-DFc >>coefficients you actually make things worse.

Re: [ccp4bb] Experimental phasing vs molecular replacement

2018-12-05 Thread James Holton
It is true that MAD phasing can give you hyper-accurate phases. This is because you are measuring the heavy atom signal in both directions on the Harker diagram, allowing the phase to be solved analytically.  The phasing signal is noisy, of course, but you can fix that either with a bigger

Re: [ccp4bb] Experimental phasing vs molecular replacement

2018-12-05 Thread Frederic Vellieux
Hello, I think what you are alluding to is model bias in (macromolecular) crystallography. What you should consult are the publications associated with this topic, and those on the map coefficients used to compute electron density maps (e.g. SIGMAA weighting), OMIT maps, current refinement

[ccp4bb] Experimental phasing vs molecular replacement

2018-12-05 Thread 香川 亘
Dear all, It is my understanding that experimental phasing (e.g. Se-SAD), in principle, yields better electron density maps than molecular replacement for protein regions with weak electron densities (partially disordered or flexible). I would appreciate if someone could provide comments on