I've just done a little dance of joy.
Whilst looking at the code and trying to cross reference it against the
timing signals I was seeing for RD operations it became obvious that there
was an address mixup and a RET instruction was jumping back to the wrong
part of the code - a return to 0x005C wa
> From: Jon Elson
> Any time you see really narrow glitches, especially when they are one
> LA sample wide, you have no idea what they actually look like. The LA
> detects that the pulse was there at the instant it sampled it, but you
> don't know whether it was 5 ns wide, or 7
rly not an issue.
So I'm looking too deeply, OK.
Back to the books for me then :)
A
>
> From: cctalk on behalf of Jon Elson
>
> Sent: Friday, February 3, 2017 6:36:27 PM
> To: gene...@classiccmp.org; Discussion@
> Subject: Re: Logic Analysers
>
> On 0
On 04/02/2017 02:36, "Jon Elson" wrote:
>> http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/STCExecutelA1checking2.jpg
>>
>> Pulse missing from ROM3.
> First pic, pulses are missing from ROMs 1-3, seen on ROM4.
> But, those pulses on ROM4 are really narrow, and may be
> noise, or very narrow glitches. Any time
Sent: Friday, February 3, 2017 9:40:48 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Logic Analysers
All the glitches are at the beginning of the ALE. There is nothing
there that has any meaning. Things are changing at this time. Not
every thing changes at the same rate
shorter than the ALE and
clearly not an issue.
Dwight
From: cctalk on behalf of Jon Elson
Sent: Friday, February 3, 2017 6:36:27 PM
To: gene...@classiccmp.org; Discussion@
Subject: Re: Logic Analysers
On 02/03/2017 04:34 PM, Adrian Graham wrote:
> On 03/02/2
On 02/03/2017 04:34 PM, Adrian Graham wrote:
On 03/02/2017 19:43, "Tony Duell" wrote:
But that's why I said 'about'. I am doing order-of-magnitude calculations,
not trying to design a delay line. I would estimate that between adjacent
ICs on the same board you'd get a delay measured in 10's or
On 02/03/2017 01:35 PM, Mouse wrote:
the propagation delay as the signal gets to each pin (remember a
foot is about a nanosecond. [...])
Not really. A foot is about a light-nanosecond, yes, but
high-frequency signals in copper travel by skin effect, moving
significantly more slowly - somewhere
On 02/03/2017 04:10 PM, dwight wrote:
> I'm not sure you want to hide glitches. There are times
>
> when you might want to see them.
>
> It is more about knowing when a glitch has meaning and when it
> doesn't.
Indeed. That's one of the the things that impressed me about the early
HP 1615 logic
6:32 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Logic Analysers
On 03/02/2017 23:29, "dwight" wrote:
> Adrian
>
> What you see on the other select line is what is called a glitch.
>
> These are not that uncommon during the early part of the address.
Ah, ok, there's a glitch filter that I can apply to each channel, I'll
explore that.
Cheers!
>
> From: cctalk on behalf of Adrian Graham
>
> Sent: Friday, February 3, 2017 2:34:18 PM
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Sent: Friday, February 3, 2017 2:34:18 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Logic Analysers
On 03/02/2017 19:43, "Tony Duell" wrote:
> But that's why I said 'about'. I am doing order-of-magnitude calculations,
> not trying to design
On 03/02/2017 19:43, "Tony Duell" wrote:
> But that's why I said 'about'. I am doing order-of-magnitude calculations,
> not trying to design a delay line. I would estimate that between adjacent
> ICs on the same board you'd get a delay measured in 10's or 100's of
> picoseconds. That sort of orde
> 3) An HP1630. I forget which one, probably a 1630G. It does all I want. I was
> also AFAIK the last HP LA to have a proper component-level service manual.
> It's also a classic computer in its own right (6809 + 6829 MMU). Oddly the CRT
> is scanned vertically, I have no idea why.
>
Hello Tony,
On 2017-02-03 5:05 PM, Adrian Graham wrote:
On 03/02/2017 20:38, "Paul Berger" wrote:
As I have said before, the most important piece of test gear is a
brain.
-tony
...And if you don't have a schematic, you ring out the connections and
draw your own...
I'm not yet skilled enough to draw a
On 2017-02-03 4:41 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
...And if you don't have a schematic, you ring out the connections and draw
your own...
Given the number of times I've done that, I half-feel like mentioning
a grandmother
and sucking eggs ;-)
More seriously, to draw out a useful schematic -- not just
On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 2:00 PM, dwight wrote:
> I once worked with a device that came close to telling you
> that U15 was failing.
>
> It was called a signature analyzer.
> It was good as a first pass production tester.
>
It required that the device under test be put in a state where the signals
On 03/02/2017 20:38, "Paul Berger" wrote:
>> As I have said before, the most important piece of test gear is a
>> brain.
>>
>> -tony
> ...And if you don't have a schematic, you ring out the connections and
> draw your own...
I'm not yet skilled enough to draw a schematic but I've drawn out a co
enough to catch the bypass capacitor
tied to a buss feedthru.
Dwight
From: cctalk on behalf of Charles Anthony
Sent: Friday, February 3, 2017 12:51:32 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Logic Analysers
On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 a
On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 12:43 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 1:25 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
>
>
> > What would the "System Requirements" be?
> > Would it also advise me that both my hardware and my OS are out-of-date,
> > and need to be upgraded?
> >
>
> I'll add that in a future upgr
On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 1:25 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
> On Fri, 3 Feb 2017, Eric Smith wrote:
>
>> Hmmm...
>> I think I'll make a box that you plug into a computer and it tells you 'U5
>> is faulty'.
>> It won't be magic, though...
>> :-)
>>
>
> Other than plugging in to the computer (USB?), the rest
>
> ...And if you don't have a schematic, you ring out the connections and draw
> your own...
Given the number of times I've done that, I half-feel like mentioning
a grandmother
and sucking eggs ;-)
More seriously, to draw out a useful schematic -- not just one that
shows what is
connected to wha
On 2017-02-03 3:47 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 7:04 PM, dwight wrote:
I think Tony's statement about the key thing to know about
trouble shouting is to know what it should be doing.
If you don't know that, no scope or logic analyzer with help much.
Yes. I once explained fa
On Fri, 3 Feb 2017, Eric Smith wrote:
Hmmm...
I think I'll make a box that you plug into a computer and it tells you 'U5
is faulty'.
It won't be magic, though...
:-)
Other than plugging in to the computer (USB?), the rest of it could
probably be done in software.
What would the "System Requ
On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 8:08 PM, jim stephens wrote:
>
>
> On 2/3/2017 11:58 AM, Eric Smith wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 12:47 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
>>
>>> There is no magic box that you plug into a computer and it tells
>>> you 'U5 is faulty'. At least not in general.
>>>
>> Hmmm...
>>
>>
On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 7:58 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 12:47 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
>
>> There is no magic box that you plug into a computer and it tells
>> you 'U5 is faulty'. At least not in general.
>>
>
> Hmmm...
>
> I think I'll make a box that you plug into a computer and
On 2/3/2017 11:58 AM, Eric Smith wrote:
On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 12:47 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
There is no magic box that you plug into a computer and it tells
you 'U5 is faulty'. At least not in general.
Hmmm...
I think I'll make a box that you plug into a computer and it tells you 'U5
is fa
On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 12:47 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
> There is no magic box that you plug into a computer and it tells
> you 'U5 is faulty'. At least not in general.
>
Hmmm...
I think I'll make a box that you plug into a computer and it tells you 'U5
is faulty'.
It won't be magic, though...
:-)
> On Feb 3, 2017, at 2:43 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
>
> On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 7:35 PM, Mouse wrote:
the propagation delay as the signal gets to each pin (remember a
foot is about a nanosecond. [...])
>>
>> Not really. A foot is about a light-nanosecond, yes, but
>> high-frequency sign
On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 7:04 PM, dwight wrote:
> I think Tony's statement about the key thing to know about
>
> trouble shouting is to know what it should be doing.
>
> If you don't know that, no scope or logic analyzer with help much.
Yes. I once explained faultfinding in this way. The technical
On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 7:35 PM, Mouse wrote:
>>> the propagation delay as the signal gets to each pin (remember a
>>> foot is about a nanosecond. [...])
>
> Not really. A foot is about a light-nanosecond, yes, but
> high-frequency signals in copper travel by skin effect, moving
> significantly m
>> the propagation delay as the signal gets to each pin (remember a
>> foot is about a nanosecond. [...])
Not really. A foot is about a light-nanosecond, yes, but
high-frequency signals in copper travel by skin effect, moving
significantly more slowly - somewhere around .6c, I think it is.
It's
3, 2017 9:06:34 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Logic Analysers
On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 4:46 PM, dwight wrote:
> Different strokes for different folks.
Yes. It depends a lot on what you work on, what you are trying to do, and
how you think.
This is a problem
On 03/02/2017 16:41, "Jon Elson" wrote:
> On 02/03/2017 02:55 AM, Adrian Graham wrote:
>> Ah yes, sorry, I'm aware of that. What I meant in this
>> specific case is that with 4 2764s right next to each
>> other with a direct signal path between adjacent address
>> and data pins that has a resista
On 2017-02-03 1:23 PM, jim stephens wrote:
On 2/3/2017 9:09 AM, Paul Berger wrote:
I also have a 16700A, 16600A, and a 16500C but they are rarely if
ever used these days.
Paul.
the 16600A has one slot. We had one with a scope card installed, very
nice compact setup if the builtin channe
, also swapped the grabber ends since they're
not the sturdiest of things. I haven't tried a PC though, my host is an
iMac.
Hopefully next week I'll have a Zeroplus to try which while still being USB
attach is 16CH+external clock and onboard RAM for storage. Could be useful.
> Incid
On 2/3/2017 9:09 AM, Paul Berger wrote:
I also have a 16700A, 16600A, and a 16500C but they are rarely if ever
used these days.
Paul.
the 16600A has one slot. We had one with a scope card installed, very
nice compact setup if the builtin channels were sufficient.
thanks
jim
On 2017-02-03 12:41 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
On 02/03/2017 02:55 AM, Adrian Graham wrote:
Ah yes, sorry, I'm aware of that. What I meant in this specific case
is that with 4 2764s right next to each other with a direct signal
path between adjacent address and data pins that has a resistance of
0
On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 4:46 PM, dwight wrote:
> Different strokes for different folks.
Yes. It depends a lot on what you work on, what you are trying to do, and
how you think.
This is a problem with mailing lists. There are many knowledgeable people
here, but each has their own way of doing thin
d.
Dwight
From: cctalk on behalf of Tony Duell
Sent: Friday, February 3, 2017 7:27:07 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Logic Analysers
On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 8:55 AM, Adrian Graham
wrote:
> Ah yes, sorry, I'm aware of
On 02/03/2017 02:55 AM, Adrian Graham wrote:
Ah yes, sorry, I'm aware of that. What I meant in this
specific case is that with 4 2764s right next to each
other with a direct signal path between adjacent address
and data pins that has a resistance of 0.5 ohms pin to pin
surely I should be able
pens if you swap the logic analyser
channels round?
Incidentally, I'd better comment on the Logic Analysers I use. I use them
a lot more than a 'scope, but that's because of what I generally need to do.
1) (Is is an LA?) The HP LogicDart. 3 Channels, 100MHz. No external clock
f
On 03/02/2017 08:01, "Christian Corti"
wrote:
> On Thu, 2 Feb 2017, Adrian Graham wrote:
>> is fixed 5v. Also you'd expect that sampling at four times the clock speed
>> (they'll both do 25Mhz with 6 channels) then every pulse would be picked up.
>
> No, because the pulse length may be far infer
On Thu, 2 Feb 2017, Adrian Graham wrote:
is fixed 5v. Also you'd expect that sampling at four times the clock speed
(they'll both do 25Mhz with 6 channels) then every pulse would be picked up.
No, because the pulse length may be far inferiour to the sample clock
rate. You may also need to capt
On 2/2/2017 7:28 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 02/02/2017 05:59 PM, Ian S. King wrote:
OK, I'm going to give the minimalist/cheap-bastard perspective. I've
done some solid troubleshooting with my HP 1630G. Sure, it only has a
1K event memory, but the triggering options are pretty flexible.
With som
On 02/02/2017 05:59 PM, Ian S. King wrote:
> OK, I'm going to give the minimalist/cheap-bastard perspective. I've
> done some solid troubleshooting with my HP 1630G. Sure, it only has a
> 1K event memory, but the triggering options are pretty flexible.
> With some creativity, you can focus on the
OK, I'm going to give the minimalist/cheap-bastard perspective. I've done
some solid troubleshooting with my HP 1630G. Sure, it only has a 1K event
memory, but the triggering options are pretty flexible. With some
creativity, you can focus on the behavior you need to observe. It can
self-clock o
On 02/02/2017 23:49, "Jim Brain" wrote:
> On 2/2/2017 5:21 PM, Chris Hanson wrote:
>> On Feb 2, 2017, at 10:43 AM, Fritz Mueller wrote:
>>> I bought a used 1662 off eBay for cheap, and it has been indispensable for
>>> the work I've been doing on a PDP-11. I think the external clock is often a
On 2/2/2017 5:21 PM, Chris Hanson wrote:
On Feb 2, 2017, at 10:43 AM, Fritz Mueller wrote:
I bought a used 1662 off eBay for cheap, and it has been indispensable for the
work I've been doing on a PDP-11. I think the external clock is often a pretty
critical feature in being able to sensibly
On Feb 2, 2017, at 10:43 AM, Fritz Mueller wrote:
>
> I bought a used 1662 off eBay for cheap, and it has been indispensable for
> the work I've been doing on a PDP-11. I think the external clock is often a
> pretty critical feature in being able to sensibly interpret traces.
> Sophisticated
On 02/02/2017 18:43, "Fritz Mueller" wrote:
> I bought a used 1662 off eBay for cheap, and it has been indispensable for the
> work I've been doing on a PDP-11. I think the external clock is often a
> pretty critical feature in being able to sensibly interpret traces.
> Sophisticated triggering
On 02/02/2017 06:50, "Chuck Guzis" wrote:
>> An HP 1660 or 1670 series self-contained portable logic analyzer
>> might be nice to pick up if you can get a decent deal on one. The
>> main limitation of the 1660 series is that the sample depth is only
>> 4K samples per channel. The 1670 series offe
On 02/02/2017 04:26, "Glen Slick" wrote:
>>
>> Whilst looking for better quality units I came across a couple of 'proper'
>> HP/Agilent analysers, a 1663A 34 channel and 1661A 102 channel which seem
>> complete apart from the chip leg grabbers. Am I right to assume some of you
>> might have expe
I bought a used 1662 off eBay for cheap, and it has been indispensable for the
work I've been doing on a PDP-11. I think the external clock is often a pretty
critical feature in being able to sensibly interpret traces. Sophisticated
triggering is also very useful for catching a suspected misb
On 02/02/2017 03:13, "Jon Elson" wrote:
> On 02/01/2017 05:18 PM, Adrian Graham wrote:
>> Evening folks,
>>
>> I have two so-called Logic Analysers, both cheap Chinese clones of other
>> more expensive units that hook up to the host via USB2 and stream r
> On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 3:18 PM, Adrian Graham
> wrote:
>>
>> Whilst looking for better quality units I came across a couple of
>> 'proper' HP/Agilent analysers, a 1663A 34 channel and 1661A 102
>> channel which seem complete apart from the chip leg grabbers. Am I
>> right to assume some of you
On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 3:18 PM, Adrian Graham
wrote:
>
> Whilst looking for better quality units I came across a couple of 'proper'
> HP/Agilent analysers, a 1663A 34 channel and 1661A 102 channel which seem
> complete apart from the chip leg grabbers. Am I right to assume some of you
> might have
On 02/01/2017 05:18 PM, Adrian Graham wrote:
Evening folks,
I have two so-called Logic Analysers, both cheap Chinese clones of other
more expensive units that hook up to the host via USB2 and stream readings
direct to software, in one case the open source Sigrok and in the other
genuine Saleae
Evening folks,
I have two so-called Logic Analysers, both cheap Chinese clones of other
more expensive units that hook up to the host via USB2 and stream readings
direct to software, in one case the open source Sigrok and in the other
genuine Saleae Logic.
I'm getting different and inconsi
>
> Hi Tony,
>
> I don't mean to throw shade on your HP 1630 or your K100 ... just in my own
> personal opinion, when I see a HP 1630 on eBay for $100 or a HP 1660 on
> eBay for $100 ... and you see this all the time ... I think going with the
Of course. And I my comments are my personal opinion
are pretty obsolescent
> and
> > ... unless you already have one, or someone local to you is giving you
> > one... I don't think they're really worth the cost of shipping unless you
> > have some nostalgic attachment to a particular instrument.
>
> As somebody wh
On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 4:18 PM, Sean Caron wrote:
> * Generally anything the "C" can do, the "B" can do and vice versa.
The 16500C can accept the 16533A and 16534A DSO options, while the
16500B cannot.
The 16500A, B, C, 16600 series, 16700 series, and 16900 series each
support different subsets
y worth the cost of shipping unless you
> > have some nostalgic attachment to a particular instrument.
>
> As somebody who has both and uses them (and has no later analysers), I have
> to disagree with you there. After all the OP was asking for the 'Tek 465
> of logic
al to you is giving you
> one... I don't think they're really worth the cost of shipping unless you
> have some nostalgic attachment to a particular instrument.
As somebody who has both and uses them (and has no later analysers), I have
to disagree with you there. After all the OP w
Hi Ken,
I think that's a pretty good overview but just wanted to add a few notes:
* The HP16500A (obsolete) ran completely from (DS/DD) floppies. There were
two drives; one in front and one in back. The 16500A is capable of running
only a limited subset of cards that were ultimately produced for
On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 2:01 PM, Ken Seefried wrote:
> Thanks for the input everyone. In summary, I got recommendations for:
>
> - HP 16500C (lesser a 16500B, but not a 16500A) (mainframe)
> - HP 16700/16900/17500 (mainframe, bigger-faster-stronger, still pretty
> expensive, can use 16500 cards)
One thing on which I must disagree: you don't need 'an external HPIB
controller' to use the HP 1630. It's nice to be able to save configs and
traces to floppy, but I don't know if the PC software to actually move it
to a host for analysis has survived. I've never controlled my 1630G with
anything
Thanks for the input everyone. In summary, I got recommendations for:
- HP 16500C (lesser a 16500B, but not a 16500A) (mainframe)
- HP 16700/16900/17500 (mainframe, bigger-faster-stronger, still pretty
expensive, can use 16500 cards)
- HP 166x or 167x (portable, modern, look for hard drive)
- HP
I've got to go with Alexandre on this, look for an HP 16500B or 16500C or
if you want something smaller, an HP 166x or 1670x. You should be able to
find a nice one in good shape with all the pod cables, break-outs,
"grippies" ... a "full backpack" for a few hundred dollars or less.
An HP 165x in n
Date: Thu, 28 May 2015 22:53:07 -0400
>> From: Ken Seefried
>> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
>> Subject: OT: Looking for the Tek 465 of Logic Analysers
>> Message-ID:
>>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>>
>> Maybe only semi-OT. I'm working
2015 22:53:07 -0400
> From: Ken Seefried
> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
> Subject: OT: Looking for the Tek 465 of Logic Analysers
> Message-ID:
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> Maybe only semi-OT. I'm working on a couple of classiccmp-ish projects
> That's good to hear.
> 2 weeks ago I got an HP1630D and last week a 1631.
> Both came with pods, but the first one did not have the "plug"
> with the test leads, and the second one did. So I bought the second
The actual pods, which are plugged into the back of the instrument are
quite complex a
but they were great.
- Henk
-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
From: Ian S. King
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2015 9:32 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Looking for the Tek 465 of Logic Analysers
I'm quite fond of my HP 1630G. It's quite fast enough for
>
> I'm quite fond of my HP 1630G. It's quite fast enough for the sort of
> machines I'm logic-analyzing. :-)
Ditto. Well, I can't remember which model I was given, it's the one that's
maxed out with
'state' channels, but only the basic 'timing' channels.
The manual is excellent (and availa
I'm quite fond of my HP 1630G. It's quite fast enough for the sort of
machines I'm logic-analyzing. :-)
On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 5:57 PM, Ken Seefried wrote:
> From: tony duell
> >> - No weird technologies in the design (all TTL/CMOS logic)
> >
> >That is going to be a problem. AFAIK no 'serio
From: tony duell
>> - No weird technologies in the design (all TTL/CMOS logic)
>
>That is going to be a problem. AFAIK no 'serious' logic analyser was all
>TTL or (high speed) CMOS. If you are looking for one that is mostly/all
>standard logic, I think you have to consider ECL here.
I meant I'm n
)
Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br
Meu blog: http://tabajara-labs.blogspot.com
- Original Message -
From: "Ken Seefried"
To:
Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2015 11:53 PM
Subject: OT: Looking for the Tek 465 of Logic Analysers
Maybe only semi-OT. I'm working on a coup
> From: Jon Elson
> On 05/28/2015 09:53 PM, Ken Seefried wrote:
>> Ease of finding complete kit; nothing worse than dropping a dime on
>> what looks like a good deal only to find you're missing the unobtanium
>> cable
> The Tek 1240 should work.
I can second that. I rec
>
> Maybe only semi-OT. I'm working on a couple of classiccmp-ish projects
> (6303, 6309 and 68030) and I find the trusty old Tek 465 o-scope is no
> longer compensating for my lack of design skill (or I'm getting better at
> hiding bugs in my designs, depending how you look at it). I'm looking
On 05/28/2015 09:53 PM, Ken Seefried wrote:
Maybe only semi-OT. I'm working on a couple of classiccmp-ish projects
(6303, 6309 and 68030) and I find the trusty old Tek 465 o-scope is no
longer compensating for my lack of design skill (or I'm getting better at
hiding bugs in my designs, dependin
Maybe only semi-OT. I'm working on a couple of classiccmp-ish projects
(6303, 6309 and 68030) and I find the trusty old Tek 465 o-scope is no
longer compensating for my lack of design skill (or I'm getting better at
hiding bugs in my designs, depending how you look at it). I'm looking for
a recom
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