On Sun, Sep 13, 2015 at 7:44 PM, J. David Bryan wrote:
> On Sunday, September 13, 2015 at 8:42, Jay West wrote:
>
>> 3) Any I/O instructions in the loader are automatically patched during
>> the transfer (based on switch register bits 11 through 6) so that the
>> correct I/O address (device) is re
Dwight wrote...
My main thinking was the best place to save a boot is to save it on paper.I
recall looking at mine to see how the flag worked.( not mass storage yet so
needed a serial loader ).
-
Ah, gotcha. Yep, you're right!
On a few loaders where the part #'s were obscured, I had to
On Sunday, September 13, 2015 at 8:42, Jay West wrote:
> 3) Any I/O instructions in the loader are automatically patched during
> the transfer (based on switch register bits 11 through 6) so that the
> correct I/O address (device) is referenced.
It's actually a bit more nuanced than this. What o
Dwight wrote...
> If you still have a working machine, why not disassemble the boot ROMs.
They are only a few instructions long.
Not necessary, as the source and binary for all the loader roms is in the
aforementioned manual. None of them are "only a few instructions long". Most
of them are a coupl
> From: jw...@classiccmp.org
>
> Dwight wrote...
> > If you still have a working machine, why not disassemble the boot ROMs.
> They are only a few instructions long.
> Not necessary, as the source and binary for all the loader roms is in the
> aforementioned manual. None of them are "only a few
If you still have a working machine, why not disassemble the boot
ROMs. They are only a few instructions long.
Making a listing for the 21MX makes it easy to check them from the front
panel.
As I recall, in the boot sequence, it transfers the ROMs to ram and then
executes it.
Dwight
On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 12:41 PM, GerardCJAT wrote:
> HOW OFTEN theses old PROM fail ??
Note that some bipolar PROMs suffer from fuse regrowth, where bits
that have been programmed gradually revert to an unprogrammed state.
This was a big problem with NiCr fuses. Later bipolar PROMs used
differe
Gerard wrote
HOW OFTEN theses old PROM fail ??
Who had been through this problem and does it "really" worth to have some
blanks "just in case" ??
1) Once is enough, if it is the only known copy of that particular rom. But
in general they are very reliable. More often than not - wh
That triggers again a question I had for a while ...
HOW OFTEN theses old PROM fail ??
Who had been through this problem and does it "really" worth to have some blanks
"just in case" ??
---
L'absence de virus dans ce courrier électronique a été vérifiée par le logiciel
antivirus Avast.
https:/
I was mistaken.
I've admitted it.
Dwight
> From: a...@p850ug1.demon.co.uk
> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
> Subject: RE: 21MX proms (per request
> Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 19:15:42 +
>
> > As often the case, I recall wrong.
> > I stand corrected.
> > Dwi
> As often the case, I recall wrong.
> I stand corrected.
> Dwight
>
> From: dkel...@hotmail.com
> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
> Subject: RE: 21MX proms (per request
> Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 12:09:39 -0700
>
>
>
>
> Yep, looked it up.
> 2716 and 2732
Yep, looked it up.
2716 and 2732 used a pulsed Vpp( 2708 a well ).
Beyond that they had a static Vpp and a PGM pin.
Dwight
As often the case, I recall wrong.
I stand corrected.
Dwight
From: dkel...@hotmail.com
To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
Subject: RE: 21MX proms (per request
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 12:09:39 -0700
Yep, looked it up.
2716 and 2732 used a pulsed Vpp( 2708 a well ).
Beyond that they had a static Vpp and
- Original Message -
From: "tony duell"
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic
Posts"
Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2015 2:29 PM
Subject: RE: 21MX proms (per request
Your right, I didn't say that the 2716 was not a
single rail, just that it
didn&
>
> Your right, I didn't say that the 2716 was not a single rail, just that it
> didn't have a separate Vpp and PGM pin. It was programmed by turning
> Vpp on and off. I could be wrong that the 2732s were that way as well.
The data sheet for the SGS-Thomson 2716 here :
http://ee-classes.usc.edu
> From: a...@p850ug1.demon.co.uk
> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
> Subject: RE: 21MX proms (per request
> Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2015 14:14:44 +
>
> > 2716 are that last of the program by turning the programming voltage
> > on and off.
>
> I must be mis-remember
On 9/10/15 7:14 AM, dwight wrote:
Anyone interested in doing 1702As should look at the schematic
in the MCS4 user manual on bitsavers.org
or just buy a ME1702A from Martin Eberhard
> 2716 are that last of the program by turning the programming voltage
> on and off.
I must be mis-remembering how I designed my first EPROM programmer. I
know I could do 2716s (single-rail, not the TI ones) and I thought I always
applied Vpp and pulsed another pin at TTL levels to program them
I would be surprised if it did 1702s and 2708s. Even 2716s have
a slightly different hardware configuration.
1702s require voltages like 50 volts ( I could be a little off ) and
changing address and data lines over wide voltage ranges.
2708s require multiple rail voltages as well as programming vol
Glen wrote...
Just in case anyone is looking at BP Microsystems programmers:
I'm looking - heck, at that price, a good backup/insurance policy!
Would love to see a full device list
J
On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 4:46 PM, Jay West wrote:
>
> Another good example - the CP-1128 appears to require a usb attached computer
> to function.
Just in case anyone is looking at BP Microsystems programmers:
As far as I know only their first programmer the EP-1 had a RS-232
interface. After tha
On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 1:20 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote:
>
> Anybody know if the CP-1128 supports any of the older EProms (2708, 2716
> or 1702)? I couldn't find a device list online.
>
> JRJ
As far as I know no BP Microsystems programmers supported 1702 or 2708 EPROMs.
The last version of the program
Marc wrote
But I want to keep my machine original and vintage if I reasonably can. My
programmer [snip] fits perfectly in my collection of higher end,
historically meaningful engineering tools.
Agreed. I was the same way when selecting a logic analyzer. Given my
penchant for a certai
Sean wrote...
--
my bench is all Racal, Tek, HP, Fluke, etc and the
--
You must be one of those high net worth folks you mentioned in your previous
post, I'm jealous of that kind of bench gear!
I'm not saying the CP-1128 isn't a great value. Of course it's a good solution!
I am merely
Absolutely (assuming you count your engineering time as free), not to
mention it feels rewarding to use clever engineering tricks to solve a
problem instead of money. But I want to keep my machine original and vintage
if I reasonably can. My programmer ended up very reasonably priced, and it
is rec
On 9/8/2015 9:38 PM, Glen Slick wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 8, 2015 at 1:19 PM, Sean Caron wrote:
>> The median listing price for them on eBay for a 29B with pack seems to be
>> around $3-400 which IMO is a little steep for a 30+ year old PROM
>> programmer. Hopefully your best offer successfully accepte
Well, we all have differing levels of electronics knowledge ... and net
worth... which tip the calculus one way or the other depending on the one's
personal situation... As much as I do wish money could be no object, that's
not realistic for me.
Best,
Sean
On Tue, Sep 8, 2015 at 5:39 PM, Jay We
And I do love and appreciate the old, built-to-last-a-lifetime test
equipment ... my bench is all Racal, Tek, HP, Fluke, etc and the median age
is probably at least 25 years but, I mean, $400 is almost halfway to a nice
used spectrum analyzer and I know which I'd rather have :O Choices,
choices...
On Tue, Sep 8, 2015 at 1:19 PM, Sean Caron wrote:
> The median listing price for them on eBay for a 29B with pack seems to be
> around $3-400 which IMO is a little steep for a 30+ year old PROM
> programmer. Hopefully your best offer successfully accepted was much lower!
> I think the part cost on
On 2015-Sep-08, at 2:39 PM, Jay West wrote:
> Sean wrote
> --
> The median listing price for them on eBay for a 29B with pack seems to be
> around $3-400 which IMO is a little steep for a 30+ year old PROM programmer.
> --
> Nope. There is a very good reason why they still command suc
Sean wrote
--
The median listing price for them on eBay for a 29B with pack seems to be
around $3-400 which IMO is a little steep for a 30+ year old PROM programmer.
--
Nope. There is a very good reason why they still command such a price. Worth
every penny.
I can't belittle a 30 ye
The median listing price for them on eBay for a 29B with pack seems to be
around $3-400 which IMO is a little steep for a 30+ year old PROM
programmer. Hopefully your best offer successfully accepted was much lower!
I think the part cost on the PROMs pales in comparison. For the cost of the
29B, yo
>From: dwight
>If I were doing it.
>First you need to find out if it needs OC output.
>There are many flash parts in surface mount that can have the higher
speeds.
>Add some 74LVC245 to give bus drive needed, also surface mount.
>All on a little PC board. There would be a lot of wasted space in th
On 09/07/2015 12:47 PM, Sean Caron wrote:
But I do think there's merit in Alexandre's general argument that one could
theoretically emulate the older bipolar PROMs with some mix of modern
components ... and the programmable device would be (a) more easily
obtainable than the old bipolar PROMs and
I still do. And I'm even looking for an apple parker vector rollerball pen
:) :) :)
Em 08/09/2015 02:58, "j...@cimmeri.com" escreveu:
> On 9/8/2015 12:28 AM, Marc Verdiell wrote:
>
>> Thanks for the answers everyone, I am writing everything down...
>> Marc
>>
>>
>>
>>
> Nice to hear that people a
On 9/8/2015 12:28 AM, Marc Verdiell wrote:
Thanks for the answers everyone, I am writing everything down...
Marc
Nice to hear that people are still *writing* things down...
- J.
Thanks for the answers everyone, I am writing everything down...
Marc
the heck.
Put an edge connector on the board to deal with programming.
All will fit in a smaller space than the original part.
Dwight
> From: jw...@classiccmp.org
> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
> Subject: RE: 21MX proms (per request)
> Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2015 17:20:48 -0500
>
Sean wrote
-
But I do think there's merit in Alexandre's general argument that one could
theoretically emulate the older bipolar PROMs with some mix of modern
components ... and the programmable device would be (a) more easily obtainable
than the old bipolar PROMs and (b) programmable wi
On 9/7/15 8:34 AM, Alexandre Souza wrote:
sometimes you gotta use flash
devices that are WAY faster than common EPROMs...
and sometimes that won't work, because the hold time of fast
devices is too short.
But I do think there's merit in Alexandre's general argument that one could
theoretically emulate the older bipolar PROMs with some mix of modern
components ... and the programmable device would be (a) more easily
obtainable than the old bipolar PROMs and (b) programmable with
inexpensive, contempo
As I said in the original post I wrote, sometimes you gotta use flash
devices that are WAY faster than common EPROMs...
2015-09-07 12:32 GMT-03:00 John Robertson :
> On 09/06/2015 2:00 PM, Alexandre Souza wrote:
>
>> Jay, no one is pin compatible, I always make adapters. But at least I make
>> it
On 09/06/2015 2:00 PM, Alexandre Souza wrote:
Jay, no one is pin compatible, I always make adapters. But at least I make
it work :D
2015-09-06 16:00 GMT-03:00 Jay West :
Alexander wrote...
-
Intersting to note: many times i have used eproms in place of these proms.
Usually, flash parts are
On Sunday, September 6, 2015 at 13:41, Jay West wrote:
> Here's a non-exhaustive but useful list of compatible parts for each:
>
> [...]
>
> 4K parts
> Signetics N82S141
> Harris 7641
> MMI 6341
Some additional part numbers:
- AMD Am27S31
- National DM87S474
> 8K parts
> Signetics N82S181
Jay, no one is pin compatible, I always make adapters. But at least I make
it work :D
2015-09-06 16:00 GMT-03:00 Jay West :
> Alexander wrote...
> -
> Intersting to note: many times i have used eproms in place of these proms.
> Usually, flash parts are faster, so better suited to the task.
>
On Sun, 6 Sep 2015, Jay West wrote:
Here's a non-exhaustive but useful list of compatible parts for each:
4K parts
Signetics N82S141
Harris 7641
MMI 6341
You can add National 74S474 to this group. I've tried it, and they
work.
Mike Loewen mloe...@cpumagic.s
Glen wrote
The loader PROMs are 256x4 while the firmware PROMs are either 512x8 or 1024x8.
The firmware has some interesting code to unpack the 256x4 loader PROMs into
64x16 format in memory, and patch in the I/O select code while it is doing it.
The same 1K parts are used intercha
Alexander wrote...
-
Intersting to note: many times i have used eproms in place of these proms.
Usually, flash parts are faster, so better suited to the task.
-
Loader roms:
You may be able to get by with that on loader roms. I've never found eproms
that were functional & pin compatible.
On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 11:41 AM, Jay West wrote:
> Several people asked, here's the scoop:
>
> The common proms for HP 21MX M/E/F are 1K, 4K, and 8K.
>
> 1K are used for either loader roms on the cpu board or microcode on the FAB
> 4K are used for microcode on the FAB or FEM
> 8K are used for micr
Intersting to note: many times i have used eproms in place of these proms.
Usually, flash parts are faster, so better suited to the task.
Em 06/09/2015 15:42, "Jay West" escreveu:
> Several people asked, here's the scoop:
>
> The common proms for HP 21MX M/E/F are 1K, 4K, and 8K.
>
> 1K are used
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